It just keeps coming

[Ozzie101]

Thought I’d better start another thread to deal with this.

H went to a meeting. Says he got thrown under the bus. Now he’s (again) telling me he got fired. Did he? I don’t know.

He also told me his mom fell yesterday — nothing broken — and that he needs to be up there. Can’t because he has to work. Huh?

I just got off the phone with him. He says my parents’ friend caused all this. Keeps telling me to tell him what he should do. Tells me it’s up to me and my people to convince him to come home. “I’ve told you what you have to do to fix it.” When I don’t think he has.

Best I can tell, he wants me to tell my parents they’re wrong for being friends with these people. I haven’t told them what’s happening. They’ll have questions. Want to know what happened. And I have no clue.

I’ve got a 9-year-old downstairs whose dad may not come home tonight. A husband who’s demanding that I make all these decisions when I have very jumbled info...

[juju2]

Hi Ozzie

sounds about right. 

In stressful times it is bad.  The gaps in communication and what makes sense is a common theme.

In the program I am in it is important to be complete.  It's something I am learning.

My heart goes out to you because there is no clarity, honesty, sense. 

Nothing makes sense.  In my situation.

I can understand.  I try to do the best I can and pray a lot.

[Cat Familiar]

So, seeing this pattern repeat over and over, where are you? And what do you want to do?

[Ozzie101]

He said that his employees are more supportive than I am.

Thing is, I don’t really know what’s been going on. Is he misinterpreting? Is he absolutely correct?

I have no idea. Because what I get is vague and broken and told in pieces as if I was there and know.

He says my parents’ friend told the new boss H is a problem. New boss asked H and H says he blasted him for not standing up for him in the meeting.

Thing is, I can believe H is a problem. I’ve seen how he can get when angry and I know how people can react when someone is angry and irrational.

[Ozzie101]

Cat, I’m at home. I don’t know where he is and I can’t leave because SS is here.

H is hinting around about suicidal thoughts but, again, I don’t know where he is.

No, I don’t think he’ll do it.

He’s basically screaming at me for doing nothing and not supporting him or standing up for him. For protecting my family.

I’m trying to be supportive and understanding. As usual failing. But he’s not making sense.

[Ozzie101]

Sorry, Cat. I was being a little dense.

Honestly, I feel like I can’t do this anymore.

Am I unreasonable? Unfeeling? He thinks I am. Apparently other people think I am. I know I’ve tried but is it enough?

He’s right. I don’t want to call my parents out. I don’t want to contact these church people and defend him. Part of that is my shyness and fear of confrontation. But a bigger part is that I just feel like it’s not my place. And that, without knowing what happened, I can make things worse or at best be ineffectual and look foolish.

He’s invoking the ex a lot again. How she gets it and supports him and doesn’t trust me with SS. He tells me how he’s done everything and sacrificed everything for me and my family but I won’t do the same for him. It feels manipulative so I don’t bite.

But am I really just cold? I just don’t know anymore. I just know I can’t keep doing this. But I don’t know the answer. He needs out of that environment but he also really needs help.

[I Am Redeemed]

If I had to guess, based on the basically same type of mental gymnastics my ex used to exhibit, I would say that he once again took some type of (possibly completely benign) statement or comment and is attaching his own (delusional) meaning to it.

He sounds like he is exhibiting highly paranoid and delusional behavior. The statements about being fired and then having to work, the statements that he got thrown under the bus and your parents' friend is to blame... I would wager that there is a very thin line of evidence to support that as fact. I think he has twisted some type of comment someone made to fit his paranoid suspicion that this person is plotting against him somehow, and that your parents are supporting the sabotage by remaining "friends" (however casual) with this person.

He seems to want you to buy into the delusion and get just as upset, defensive, and ready to do battle as he is. That also corresponds to paranoia and delusional thinking.

My ex once became convinced that my BIL (who at the time worked for the IRS and who lived across country) was trying to "screw him over'' on his tax refund. I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember that nothing concrete had even happened and it was all in his head. He lashed out at me for not calling my sister and BIL and telling them off for the "underhanded" things they were doing to specifically sabatoge him (again, all made up in his head).

A recurring theme in our r/s was his assumption that my family was against him and actively trying to interfere in his life in some way (they did not like him, but it's because of how he acted and how he treated me).

To me, it sounds like your H is teetering on the edge of what is real and what is imagined. That's a very tough place for you to be in because he is going to want you to buy in to his delusions and anything less than "all in" is "all out" (that goes for your family, too). I think this is his definition of "support"- and his employees, if that is true, probably don't know enough about his mental issues to take what he says with skepticism- IF they really are "supporting" him, what they are actually doing is enabling and fueling his delusional thinking, validating his victim position and gearing him up to dysregulate because you don't provide the validation that he is justified in being angry at being "wronged".

I don't know what to tell you to do about this. I don't think there is much you can do except try to validate feelings, not validate the invalid, and set boundaries to keep yourself safe as much as possible.

Challenging a delusional person's beliefs does not work. Even if they have lucid moments of clarity, once the delusion returns there is no rationalizing that will pull them out of it. A delusion is not rational and is not based on evidence or facts. A delusional person's mind will create reasons why the facts as presented to them do not apply or are false.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Redeemed. I think you have a very good read on it.

I was able to piece together that he felt like he was being accused of stealing money (I in no way believe he did that) and then reprimanded for lashing out emotionally (given his recent state, I believe that). I can easily believe he took a statement personally or the wrong way.

You’re right about the arguing. I fall into that too easily. Where I struggle is he will demand decisions or answers and no number of validating or empathetic comments will suffice. He just gets more angry. He demands action and wants me to get angry. I won’t act (not much I could do late at night anyway, but I won’t without understanding) and I won’t blow up in anger. Anything less infuriated him.

Yet I feel like even if I did those things, he’d still find a way to be mad at me. One minute he’s telling me he’s not mad at me. The next he’s screaming and telling me I’m worthless and he’s struggling not to hate me.

[juju2]

just be kind to yourself.

It takes a special person to be a partner to someone w BPD.

Be gentle to you.

Sometimes my best solution is to read a book, or play computer games.

Nothing I do or don't do is making a difference...

[I Am Redeemed]

Yet I feel like even if I did those things, he’d still find a way to be mad at me. One minute he’s telling me he’s not mad at me. The next he’s screaming and telling me I’m worthless and he’s struggling not to hate me.

I think you are right, because I did concede to those demands on a few occasions (under duress of physical threat). It never satiated the "need" he had. It only made things worse and it never was a "one and done" type thing.

Part of that is because delusional and paranoid thinking follows no logical direction. There is no way to put out the fire without it popping up in a different room, if that makes sense.

If I gave in to his demands to call my family and confront them about one issue, then it would be my coworkers next. Or it would be the therapist who happened to have the same last name as my oldest daughters' father (a very common name, mind you, think of the most generic common last name possible and you've probably got it). Or it would be something else. Someone always had it out for him, and since he really did get fired (? maybe) or quit several different jobs, I had the opportunity to see this play out in a variety of different occupational settings. I eventually realized it wasn't me, my family, our church members, my coworkers, his coworkers, or his boss(es). It was him, and his thinking.

[GaGrl]

I fear this will be one of the situations that he doesn't remember yomorrow, i.e. The content of the conversation. The dissociation is a big problem.

[Ozzie101]

I think he will remember. He wrote me a long email early this morning.

Yes; he came home. I was upstairs getting into bed. He wouldn’t leave but I kept moving forward on going to bed. Eventually, he cooled and got in bed too.

He can control some things, I believe. Last night, I got angry at him — no yelling, just cold anger. He immediately softened, asked me to please listen to him, he loves me. I agreed. Cue the ramp back up.

The email: It was full of self-recrimination. He messes everything up. He was so ashamed last night for losing his job. No one stood up for him in the meeting where he was accused of stealing (again, I question whether he really was — he probably interpreted). And I never could get a clear account of what happened leading up to the “firing.” It doesn’t track.

So, this morning, I get up and get ready to “go to work” as usual. The recycling bin was still by the street so I went out to drag it up the driveway. H’s car was out there — I’m sure he wasn’t steady enough to pull it into the garage. Well, I checked the door to make sure it was locked (it wasn’t) and then see if he’d left keys in there (he hadn’t). Guess what was in the driver’s door? A beer can. And an empty six-pack box in the back. We were all in that car two days before, so this was new. He also didn’t eat yesterday so he was drinking on an empty stomach.

He says he was up after our fight applying for more jobs. He feels like he screws everything up. I should just trust him these people at work are bad people and should know what the big issues are. I do kind of know. But I can’t trust his view.

He needs serious help. He really seems to be cracking up. Now, on top of it, his mom is in the hospital 3 hours away. I’m sure that’s a big part of this latest dysregulation.

I’m trying to be loving and understanding but I feel like I’m growing hard and running out of emotional currency.

[juju2]

so sorry that things are tough right now.

I do not know if he could get unemployment, he can try, if his former employer challenges it, maybe not.  There is a chance they won't challenge.

during a pandemic, am not sure employer wants more stress.

when a lot of things pile up on me, I have to get as centered as possible, and see what is important and what is no so.
triage my life.

the more centered I can be, the better my thought process and actions.

Nothing has to be done right now.
No one is on fire.

Easy to say, way harder to do.

[Cat Familiar]

So there's a lot going on. He's covertly drinking. His mother's health is fragile. His job is in potential jeopardy.

He has very poor coping skills and it's likely that even if he's not on the verge of getting fired, that he's not very popular with management. Whether or not he's misinterpreting mild criticism, it's likely that he's not getting a stellar review at work. He has a history of magnifying inconsequential issues, blaming other people, then exploding at you for not somehow fixing everything.

You've seen this pattern repeat multiple times. It's hard to watch someone you love be self-destructive and seemingly unwilling to step outside of this repetitive behavioral cycle.

Recently you have had success in deescalating a potential meltdown. Though it didn't avert another dysregulation, you were able to stay centered and had the muscle memory of not falling prey to tendencies to acquiesce to unreasonable demands.

Count that as a victory!

[Ozzie101]

He doesn’t remember what he might have said or done yesterday but now the personnel committee is having a meeting he’s expected to call in on this afternoon. He tried earlier to call his boss to apologize and got no response.

It’s not looking good. I feel sick. Tired. And, yes, angry at him for whatever he might have done that could take away most of our security. I need to keep myself centered.

[Ozzie101]

He was let go. For real this time. I talked to him on the phone and he actually sounded ok — just stunned. We agreed to try to relax and have a fun night and to look at this as a chance for a clean slate.

They didn’t give him a reason. Just said he can choose whether to resign or be terminated (he’s doing the former) and he gets a pretty generous severance.

Hoping he’s able to keep it together, that I have the wisdom to handle it all well and that he finds a new job soon.

Thank you for all your support.

[GaGrl]

There's some level of relief in an event happening and not having to deal with the dread.

If your state is an Employment At Will state (most are), they don't have to have a reason, although most well-run companies would have a multi-step process for disciplinary action and a clear-cut termination statement. They appear to be offering him a choice so that he can tell future employers that he resigned -- "it wasn't a fit" and so forth.

Perhaps that daily stress off him will help. However, he could ruminate on the situation and go into blame mode again.

Can you help keep him future-focused on the job search?

Or take an inexpensive weekend trip and relax?

[Ozzie101]

We’ve talked about staying focused and reiterated the “we’ll be fine.” My parents both reached out to him, which helped, and as my dad said, this could be a blessing in disguise.

He’s feeling sad and nervous. Anger hasn’t hit yet but he said tonight that he’s worried about when it does. He’s trying to make a conscious effort to keep it in check. I told him it’s normal to be angry. But handling it by aiming it at people is where it becomes a problem.

We’ll see.

He’s heard from a few coworkers who think he left for another job. They gave three months’ severance and we have strong savings, plus potential family help so we’ll be fine financially. I just hope he can keep it together.

I’m doing my best to be positive and supportive

At the same time, the church where he worked was my church for 20 years so I’ve got some pretty mixed emotions myself.

Tonight he made his special nachos and we’re watching a comedy. I don’t see trips in our future but we’ll try to relax.

[Goosey]

If your on this forum it’s for a reason.
Protect yourself.
Good luck.

[formflier]

  We agreed to try to relax and have a fun night and to look at this as a chance for a clean slate.
 

I think this phrasing or you validating or in any way agreeing to this is a strategic mistake.

"This is a chance for you to focus on improving your health and and your job search."

"clean slate" is big for pwBPD.  Use the magic erase board like it never happened and they don't have to look at themselves...it was the job it was the (fill in the blank)

If you can recount that conversation to us some (the clean slate one) we can help you find a way to undo that...

 

So sorry this his happening...

Best,

FF

[HappyKJ]

Hi Ozzie101, you've provided me a lot of clarity and validation in my situation, so I read this thread (starting from the beginning) and I must say, are your H and by BF the same person? Lol. My BF is also fixated on his weight; he goes long periods without eating which I think contributes to the mood swings and has struggled with bulimia in the past. Exercising lifts up his mood considerably, but he is rarely motivated enough to exercise unless I do it with him. Job stress and conflicts with bosses/coworkers was also a constancy until he finally just said he would only work from home (fair enough).

But I wanted to respond to your situation in regards to your H wanting you to "stand up for him" to your parents and accusing you of being "unfeeling" for not doing so on his terms. Obviously I'm going through the exact situation myself and still struggling with finding the best solution. Just this morning, in fact, he tried to pull me in again. But I just wanted to share that these words can cut very deep and have you doubting yourself considerably—they certainly do for me—but the problem with such statements is that they operate in extremes and attach behaviors to a person's character. I may not respond perfectly in every situation—I may even act in ways that are "weak" or "selfish"—but so does he and so does everyone. It does not mean I AM "weak," "selfish," or "unfeeling."

Second, he is allowed to have whatever feelings he wants toward my parents—he can hate them if he wants—but that doesn't mean I have to hate them too, nor is it my job to punish them or to miraculously repair the situation (for those who are unaware of the situation, we are living with my parents, and he has decided they are atrocious people who are actively trying to make things miserable for him). As long as he has the attitude that they are against him, nothing is going to change. In fact, now that I remember, they actually DID apologize to him on two separate occasions (once because I asked them to), and it didn't change anything. In fact, he seemed embarrassed by the apology.

A couple of nights ago, he said in a rare moment of vulnerability, "I just can't believe you'd choose me over your parents." It saddened me that he sees it in terms of "choosing," but I much prefer this vulnerability to the rage, blaming, and projection. I know for men it is not easy to show vulnerability, though. It did demonstrate that at the root of this behavior is a deep pain, fear, and shame.

I have also found that when he starts on the tirades against my parents, it is most effective not to respond at all. Even if I reassure him when he's in paranoia mode that my parents are individuals with lives of their own and are not actively spending every moment plotting against him, he interprets this as me taking their side. But if I don't say anything, he'll eventually stop because he has nothing to fuel the fire (and sometimes he even says, "Okay, I'll stop"). It's like he just has to get it out.

Of course, when he demands action from me, it's not so simple. Like I said, I'm still figuring this out myself. I just wanted to share some insights and let you know you're not alone!

[Ozzie101]

I totally get what you’re saying, FF, and I’m already a step ahead. The clean slate was mentioned in the initial “I got fired” announcement but hasn’t come up again..

After my most recent post, H and I talked again. He said he felt physically less stressed with the job gone and we talked about how this was a great opportunity to work on his coping skills and stress management — without the pressure cooker and constant upheaval his job helped create. It gives him time and energy to focus.

From what he was saying, he’s very aware that the problem isn’t just the job. And I’ve reinforced that he needs better emotional regulation. Stress comes up all the time. Who’s to say there won’t be something else? Or that the new job won’t be just as bad.

I have emphasized the positives of the job loss, but haven’t let him off the hook.

He’s talked about discussing things more in-depth with his therapist this week (and was very positive when I offered to speak to her as well, to provide my perspective — he’s afraid maybe he’s not giving the full picture of what he can be like).

This week scared him. A lot. For now, anyway, he’s very much open to change, suggestions and improvements.

And he had and interview this morning that went very well. He’s not getting his hopes too high, but I’m glad he’s focused for now on moving ahead and improving.

Like I say, I’m not letting my guard down or letting him off the hook. But I’m trying to use positive reinforcement for the self-awareness, eagerness yo get better and much improved behavior and attitude.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Happy! Good to see you here.

I really appreciate your support and input.

These situations can be so painful and difficult to navigate. Thankfully, my head is screwed on better now than it was when I first got here so my boundaries are stronger.

Smart of your to see that not responding works. Without oxygen, a flame will die out.

[formflier]

2 things

1.  Keep thinking ahead.  Have you ever spoke to his therapist before?  Make a list of things and also rank those in importance.  

At this point, I'm struggling to suggest number 1.  You would think it would be the firing and not remembering, however you know...100% know there is "closet drinking" (is there any chance of other substances? illicit or not).

Since there is closet drinking and driving it would be unwise of you to assume or believe him if yesterday was the "only time".

I would still be concerned if he came home and snuck off to his room, but I would be far less concerned...far less. 

So.."emotionally compromised" and drinking on an empty stomach and driving...and knowingly trying to hide this and..(probably can think of a few more)...he is so lucky he wasn't in an accident and/or hurt someone else (let alone himself)

What are your thoughts on the top three things..ranked that you would like to help the therapist understand?

How often has he been seeing the therapist?  For how long?  

Stress comes up all the time. Who’s to say there won’t be something else? Or that the new job won’t be just as bad.

2.  While I don't want you to "relax" your stance/vigilance on him getting better...more resilient, it's almost assuredly that any other job he can land will be better for several years than what he had.

Better as in triggering to bpdish stuff.

One of the many odd things about "bpdish stuff" is the seeming inability to forgive or even forget.  "issues" from years ago seem to be just as fresh and comingled somehow with the issue of the day.

So...I'm sure he has been bumping heads with the "personnel committee" (and others) for a long time.  Bpdish stuff means it's unlikely that those relationships get better...they just deteriorate over time.

That's maybe a bit simplistic of an explanation, but I hope you get the point.

Most likely he will be on best behavior for several years and then as his work relationships get more intimate, bpdish stuff will emerge.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I have never spoken to this T. He been seeing her about every other week for about 6 months or so.

My top three? The “blackouts.” The drinking. The rage episodes that include bizarre statements/accusations/lashing out. Those three are all tied together, really. It’s hard for me to say which one is paramount, but I pretty much know the drinking contributes to the other two.

Believe me. I know he was lucky. And I made that very clear to him. He hides the drinking because he knows how I feel about it. Thing is, he’s not successful. I always know.

You’re right that these issues could come up again after a while. According to friends and a couple of former coworkers, he’s never had trouble like this before. He was well-loved and respected by the people who worked under him.

I suspect it was a combination of things, in no particular order.
1) The upheavals at work caused by a (suspected) PD boss, financial crisis, COVID.
2) The drama and emotional turmoil with finding and losing his bio family.
3) My family’s connection to his workplace, which tangled in with 1 and 2.
4) Fear of losing me (suggested by my therapist — first time he’s been in a relationship he’s actively scared of losing)

Throw in all his built-in issues (Insecurity, fear of abandonment, hyper-sensitivity, distrust of authority) and you have it.

As I’ve told him, the keys are in learning coping skills and changing his attitude. He was in such a rut of negative thinking and taking everything personally — not to mention entrenched in his belief some people were just out to get him. He initiated a talk about that yesterday, saying he knows that hurt his situation and made it all worse.

But, yes, it’s BPD stuff. According to everyone who knows him, including his ex, the stuff that’s been going on the last couple of years has never happened. There were traces and warning signs, of course. I can see them looking back. But I know enough about BPD now to be able to see them. They just exploded.

Happened once. Means it can happen again.

[formflier]

I hope you stay open...or even better keep pushing to "rule out" medical issues.

While it's certainly possible all this is BPDish...it's so extreme that I just don't think it is.  ( I realize others believe this level of dissociation is possible with BPD only...or maybe other think it is more "probable" that I think it is)

Here is the thing.  I hope for your sake that the is "another" explanation.  Because if he otherwise is "fine" and he can have "blackouts" (effectively what this is...periods where he can't recall accurately)...well...that's very serious.

I suspect it was a combination of things, in no particular order.
1) The upheavals at work caused by a (suspected) PD boss, financial crisis, COVID.
2) The drama and emotional turmoil with finding and losing his bio family.
3) My family’s connection to his workplace, which tangled in with 1 and 2.
4) Fear of losing me (suggested by my therapist — first time he’s been in a relationship he’s actively scared of losing)
 

Hang in there...

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

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