Has anyone successfully introduced skills?

[JaneWrites]

Hi! I have a uBPDh and a difficult 10yo son. I was thinking of focusing on how to introduce some skills under the veil of working with our son but really targeted toward uBPDh.

Has anyone covertly introduced skills that have worked?

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[pursuingJoy]

JaneWrites, I like that you're thinking about covert, because overt doesn't usually go over well, at least in my experience.  I've had the most luck with modeling skills.

What skills are you hoping to introduce? Maybe we can brainstorm scenarios?

My uBPD MIL is a very waify BPD. I was less likely to simply acquiesce to her pouting, instead offering options she could choose from, then stay silent until she chose. After a while, I noticed H was doing the same thing.

[JaneWrites]

That's a good success story, PursuingJoy! I'm trying to model. I've been trying to teach my son DEAR MAN. I think also STOP would make a lot of sense, more for my husband than my son. I've been trying to get my son to breathe and think of ways he could take a break when he wants to do something destructive. I found an exercise about evaluating what happened leading up to an incident, what the trigger was, what was triggered, how we can make up for what happened. I tried that with my son. It's hard to go through it systematically with life happening. Honestly, we need all the skills.

[pursuingJoy]

I've been trying to teach my son DEAR MAN.

Honestly, we need all the skills.

I admire you for bringing what you're learning into the family dynamic.

And you are so right that we all needs the skills. In my situation, the tools have really been most useful for me, as the non, to maintain a level head and clarity.

Is your H open to learning something new, or are you just hoping to pass them along osmosis-style?

[JaneWrites]

Well, he's not willing to learn anything new. He's not open to any suggestions. So either osmosis or maybe he'll participate for the skills if it's for my son, but truthfully he hasn't even hit any of the softballs I've talked to him about with my son.

In another string, I described how he doesn't seem to really capture anything from our conversations and it was suggested he might have ADHD. From my late night research, I suspect that's right.

A dynamic I've noticed is that my difficult kid will tell him something (not just me) and he never seems to have any recollection. This is a man who is highly capable in other areas when he's interested. As an example, my son has repeated told him he only likes raw peppers and not cooked and certainly not in sauce. And every time we have this one meal, uBPDh cooks the peppers in the sauce and insists that my son likes peppers. So I can see where my son is being invalidated all the time and it's maddening. These examples happen all the time.

[pursuingJoy]

ADHD doesn't have the stigma it once did. Do you think he'd be open to exploring whether he has it?

[JaneWrites]

PJ, yes, there might be a way in there. He's basically admitted that he suspects he had undiagnosed ADHD as a child, so maybe we could start from there. I'll have to tread lightly though, because, you know, BPD. I'll start noodling on a strategy.

[once removed]

the short answer is yes: modeling good behavior, or skills, or being an emotional leader can be contagious, whether its directly with the person you are hoping will follow your lead, or when others see us interact with others.

longer term, its hard to say. is your husband observing these moments? is he giving them mind? if not, short of yelling "hintity hint hint", it may have no effect.

additionally, it depends. you mention a difficult son. do you see he and his dad as similar? do the same skills apply in the same ways?

lastly, it can pay to be direct in particular ways. are you and your husband on the same page when it comes to parenting? it can go a long way, if so...if these are things that each of you are discussing, considering, bringing to the table.

[JaneWrites]

One thing that has been devastating is not being on the same parenting page with my uBPDh. Yes, my son and husband need to develop similar skills. They have similar frustration issues.

My husband never implements any kind of consequence (I know I shouldn't say "never" but  . . . Never!) When my son is difficult, my husband engages and escalates until it's a nasty standoff of wills until my son finally does *something* that my husband can pass off as my son fulfilling his responsibility. I've tried to have conversations - he sounds like he's agreeing and then just does the same thing over and over. So ADHD maybe? And then with BPD I can't challenge him.

Is my uBPDh paying attention to the modeling? I don't know. I haven't been able to do a lot yet though.

[Baglady]

Hi Jane 

I remember the struggle of not being on the same page as my ex with regard to parenting - ugh.  One of the silver linings of my divorce is that this is no longer an issue.

Regarding the recurring raw pepper matter that you describe (I can soo relate to the spirit of this issue btw - been there, have many similar tee-shirts  ),  my guess is that your husband sees your son not as a separate human being with his own desires and wants but simply as an extension of himself.   Husband likes peppers a certain way ergo son obviously likes them this way too.  I found this aspect of BPD really hard to wrap my head around but it made sense of so many of my exBPDh's odd behaviors (in useless hindsight of course  ).   Your husband is likely completely frustrated by your son rightfully expressing his own needs and personhood.  I can see that my own very mellow son's first natural instincts to individuate himself from his father as a pre-teen really triggered a lot of baffling frustration in my ex.

Just my 2 cents - take the above as you will.

Warmly,
B.

[pursuingJoy]

It is frustrating when you're not on the same page. In calm moments, I've been able to talk to H about the child's changed behavior being the goal. I also talk about using the least amount of force needed to get the changed behavior, because if a kid faces high level force all the time, they'll become immune to it. Don't want to waste the ole' parental superpower, you know?

There are times when H is genuinely looking for changed behavior and the above conversation has made some difference in how he parents.

There are other times when he is a jerk to the kids because he's angry or feeling powerless about something else. Yesterday, my daughter left her laptop and case of makeup on the dining room table, and a pair of shoes on the floor. Instead of waking her up to clean up her mess, or sending a text to clean her stuff up when she woke up, he took all of her make up and her shoes and put them on top of her open laptop leaving make up powder and dust in the keys. He then sent me a long angry text (insisting he wasn't angry) asking me to ask her not to leave her stuff out. It was a passive aggressive mood probably linked to a visit to his BPD mom earlier this week. I still don't know how to handle it, because if I ask him to address her directly, it's an excuse to fly off the handle and say, "Oh, so I'm the problem."

Part of what I'm working on is accepting what IS. I then tease out small pieces to address, and I try to be grateful for small successes.

Baglady made a good point about your H probably viewing your son as an extension of himself. I think you said your H is open to addressing his potential ADHD? Any progress there?

[JaneWrites]

Really good insights, PJ and Baglady. I have not brought up the ADHD yet. I'm afraid I'll blow it as he doesn't like me "diagnosing him." He's also in a drinking too much every night phase so I just really can't deal with him right now. BPD is a form of terrorism.

[pursuingJoy]

Alcohol plays a huge role in my H's behavior, too. So sorry you're dealing with this.

BPD takes up so much time and energy. I would love for you to find a way to take some of your space back. Sometimes that means pushing back (in smart ways, using boundaries and validation), sometimes it means finding support, sometimes it just means doing something that makes you happy for a few hours. What can you do to take care of you today?

[JaneWrites]

I am definitely not doing enough for me. I am taking on a huge project in the yard and am working like an ant little by little every weekend. I'm left alone in peace so it's relaxing and it's just kind of obsessive work.

[pursuingJoy]

I find it so therapeutic to work outside! I had 15 beautiful tomato plants in my garden, was so sad when all but two were taken out by a fungus.

What are you working on? I'd love to know what you're up to.

[JaneWrites]

To be honest I am taming some unruly shrubs that grew into trees decades ago. I'm methodically going through them and thinning them out and creating a monster pile of wood and kindling. I bought a small chainsaw to work through them and I have to say I love it and it's tiring me out physically in a satisfying way. I'm also hacking a bunch of stuff back and plan to fill in with some flowering shrubs this fall.

[once removed]

I've tried to have conversations

what are they like? how do they go?

[JaneWrites]

Conversations are typically awful. I'm kind of a quieter, more introspective person, so his running script is that I am an awful communicator. I admitted I wasn't the best, but I never could see that I was *that* awful. And it generally seemed to me I was never heard when I was communicating, so it was really puzzling. It's like conversations we had didn't happen at all.

He either gets hostile - now I understand it better as I think he sees it as straight criticism. If I need to talk to him about changing something in the household, that means he is the problem.

-or-

He agrees and then does absolutely nothing I thought we agreed to.

He really only wants to talk about his current obsessions - which right now is some pretty interesting local politics which he delves into a good part of the day and then expects me to be able to be a good conversationalist on this very narrow topic. He pretty much lays traps for me in these conversations so he can accuse me of being ignorant or whatever.

So, yeah, conversations are not working so well.

Now, he is generally isolating all day and drinking after 4:30pm. Dinners are tense. I don't even know where to begin any conversation. If I say something, he'll mock me in low tones.

[once removed]

his running script is that I am an awful communicator.
...
If I need to talk to him about changing something in the household, that means he is the problem.

youre dealing with a loved one who is, deep down, very needy, tends to be poor about communicating those needs, and tends to feel self loathing over having them.

incidentally, as you may have noticed, someone very sensitive to criticism.

when he says youre an awful communicator, he is, underneath it all, saying there is something he doesnt particularly like about your communication. what that is isnt clear, although if you listen with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy) you can usually, ultimately, find where its coming from.

bottom line, hes bullying you, or goading you a little bit, in a sort of backwards way of connecting with you, and youre playing on his terms.

youre not going to get very far having heavy relationship talks with someone drinking at 430 pm and mocking you - he may just not be in that place right now.

dont get run over, or youre going to feel run over. likewise, dont fight back for power; its a balance. be cool. be confident. let him be right if he needs to be. youll be in a more centered place, and this dynamic will get old to him.