Almost 16 Years of Marriage, Almost 16 Years of Affairs

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

Last October we had a communicative breakthrough. I asked his fantasy, he told me, we get our kink on. I borrowed the term "second marriage" because everything felt right! He was attentive and kind and fun and all our past issues evaporated. I felt like he finally saw ME again, instead of something he seemed to have made up in his mind.

Last December, two weeks before Christmas, he confessed that I wasn't his first kink partner. He was in love, he had taken vacation days to see her, spent money on her, rented Airbnb's to see her, and drove two hours down and two hours back to be with her.

He admitted that he'd been cheating on me since the beginning of our marriage. With women, couples, and once a man, that he says coerced him. He used Red Cross blood donation as his STD testing. *insert RAGE face here* When I realized that, I did make him get a full workup at an actual doctor's office. I'm clean, thank you God.

He ranted about finally being open and honest with me and how he has wanted to be open and honest with me for so long. He told me he needed her too and that the kids and I were always his first choice...he had been so glued to his phone, telling me it was work. He wasn't present with us, and hadn't been, for so long. He had lost his "fun" side.

His therapist at the time had told him that "All he could do was ask if I'd be okay with that."

Details I shouldn't have to know haunted me. He overshared everything.

In the end, he admitted that he made it a much bigger thing than it was. He didn't love her. He said he didn't actually know her at all, and made it a thing in his head. He said it was vanilla sex and not all that good. He was sorry. He didn't often say he was sorry.

At least it finally explained the depression he had been in. I was used to him not being consistently present.

I moved forward. My therapist remarked that I'm "remarkably resilient" but even I seem to have finally found my breaking point.

Last week, my husband shoved me up against a wall, and told me if I touched his hand again he would slap it. He's only done that a few times before, and it's been a few years.

Later that evening, my husband sobbed in the shower and told me he was a horrible person. He couldn't believe how he had been treating me with all his affairs.

The next night we had a particularly close intimate experience.

The day after that he told me he NEEDS to have rough sex with a woman who he wants to treat as an object once a year. He said he NEEDS this. He texted, "I wish you cared about me as much as you did your ideals as to who I should be." He texted that it's only cheating if it's hidden from me.

"The whole point of me asking is that we can move forward together in a way that is honest and sustainable. I found what I need in you, I also know that there's a part of me that needs something else."

We are kinky. Our sex life is varied and exciting and we have been learning so much sexually about each other. There is no boredom. He has said he never knew he could find all this in his wife. If I wasn't interested in sex or unable or whatever, I would understand wanting to go outside the marriage, but that's not what he's asking and it's not our situation.

My previous therapist had asked if he had been diagnosed with a behavioral disorder before. I brushed her off. I was reeling from all the everything. I wish I hadn't.

We moved to a new state three and a half weeks ago. He started a new job, a significant pay increase and status with it about two months ago. He has, however, lost many jobs. Four or five since we've been married. We have gone through so many hard, hard times, and the things he's sometimes written or said were so wonderful, I never ever thought he would cheat. He used to say I was his "angel."

My gut reminded me about that conversation with my previous therapist yesterday morning. I Googled. OMG. It all fit. ALL of it. I reached out to him and mentioned it to him via text.

You should know that I am a rock. Our families are so uninvolved, that he does know he can depend on me and that I know things about him he didn't realize, like trying to prevent "triggers." Back in the early days, it was a "porn addiction." He was in therapy. I did what I had to do to keep our two sons from knowing. I would tell lies when he didn't call on his business trips, to make them feel like he cared but was stuck in a dumb company dinner. I lied to cover for him.

They believe they are in the best family, as they should. We do things together. We're active. sometimes he sucked, but when he came around, the fun would begin again. We have always been the couple other couples want to be, because when he's happy and feeling good, we fit together.

That said, as his rock, he knows I don't say things to say things. He knows I carefully consider my words. It took a lot of time to get to that point. He doesn't always hear it, but I learned to say "I feel" and that helps. Of course, sometimes he just can't process me at all.

Last night, he told me he didn't think BPD fit at all. He told me he thinks that I have it. After some raging and that scary blank stare, he relented and said he would get a test and that he couldn't wait until he showed he didn't have it, and something derogatory I don't want to repeat.

My new therapist suggested the Stop Walking on Eggshells book. I cried through the  first chapter because it's all my life! She has experience with BPD and said he is a vampire and I need to decide what I can take. If he won't get help, what is to stop him from deciding once a year isn't enough and on and on.

Exactly where my thoughts had headed. My husband always said that divorce wasn't an option. I believed it because I loved us. But now I just don't know...except this is a too big house that sat on the market for a year, we have moved four times in four years, and I can't uproot the kids again.

I want this to work but will a high functioning BPD heal?

I tried to set up a psych appointment but I need a doctor's referral first. He's been very quiet today. So few texts. The appointment is next week but it's with a Resident Assistant. He can be so charming. I'm afraid he'll thwart it so he can't get a referral or that the woman will be inexperienced or something and miss it. I don't know. He feels less threatened by women, so I thought a woman would be the best choice to him being more "open and honest" as he loves to say now.

Please, someone tell me that there is hope? He has a pattern of getting close, then sabotage.

When things go well, I love our  family.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pursuingJoy]

Welcome.  You've been through so much but I'm glad you found us.

Last night, he told me he didn't think BPD fit at all. He told me he thinks that I have it. After some raging and that scary blank stare, he relented and said he would get a test and that he couldn't wait until he showed he didn't have it, and something derogatory I don't want to repeat.

I think his response is pretty par for the course. From what you've written, I agree that he exhibits many BPD symptoms. It's important to remember that BPD is often not or mis-diagnosed, and that it's on a spectrum. Because it's behavioral, the good news is that there are things you can do differently to improve the dynamic. Don't get too terribly hung up on the diagnosis or lack of it. Even if he is diagnosed, there is a likelihood that he will reject it.

I want this to work but will a high functioning BPD heal?

Not sure it's healing as much as learning new behavior. It is really helpful if pwBPD seek treatment and are interested in self-improvement. Many are not. Again because it's behavioral, there are techniques you can learn to improve the outcome.

Please, someone tell me that there is hope? He has a pattern of getting close, then sabotage.

When things go well, I love our  family.

I love your love for your family.  There's hope.  It's pretty important that you shore up your defenses so that you can stay strong and confident throughout this process. Find support. Keep venting your emotion and frustration in safe places. Seek professional guidance. I might prepare a plan in case he resorts to physical force again.

Things might get worse before they get better, but yes, there is hope. And we're here to help in any way we can. Big hug to you.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

Thank you, thank you,  thank you.

I'm feeling slightly trapped right now.

He's in a great mood, but he was checking out young women on our bike ride today, one was wearing super short shorts that basically showed her bum.

I want to say something,  because it's long been a thing with us, about how it hurts me, what if the kids noticed,  but..he's in a good mood.

I'm not feeling all that interested in him romantically right now either. I think I'm just struggling with paying attention to how I respond to.him and the things he says. I've realized the work I do to keep him from getting angry or irritated.

It's exhausting.

But what's the alternative? Another day where dad is crabby, when the kids have enough stress?

I'm just tired of this behavior. But then I think of the kids. Even with his griping and snipping,  they had a good day.

I do need a plan for when he acts out, but leaving him alone makes it worse because he lives in his head. Last time I just said I loved him and he pushed me back into the wall. I need to talk to him about that night too. He hasn't mentioned it and it's not okay with me.
 

It's just so complicated. All of.this is just so complicated.

[pursuingJoy]

When I feel overwhelmed about the choices I have ahead of me, it sometimes helps to prioritize. What do you value? How much do you value each of those things you listed? What are your limits?

I'm glad you're giving thought to a plan. Would it help to have some guidance on how, and what to consider? Physical force is not the sort of thing you want to tolerate on any level.

One day, one piece at a time. You can do this.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

He bought me a present to buy me off. He did this a day or two after the kitchen incident. A pair of gently used Manolo's. They don't fit. I'm like Cinderella's stepsister trying to get them on.

OMG.

What do I say?

They are beautiful but they don't fit!

I'm being manipulated here. Make her happy so she doesn't leave or make her happy, but make sure it also DOESN'T make her happy! Sizing instructions reveal...they shouldn't fit. He should have added more.

How do I proceed?

[pursuingJoy]

Does he know your size?

What did you say? I'd probably say, "Thanks for thinking of me. They're a size too small but I really love the style. What was the exchange policy?" Keep it concise and brief.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

Ugh, I don't know if I handled that right. I did say they were beautiful and that they didn't fit. He thinks it's because of current and past broken toe. They just don't fit, broken toe or not! He'll probably mention it later. Should I say something about exchanging then? He just bought it from a person on Poshmark and that isn't always an option.

I hate that I can't just TALK to him anymore. That it all has to be so specific. I understand why. I just...don't know how to get through all this.

[pursuingJoy]

According to their website Poshmark won't approve a return but they claim to exchange sizes when possible? It's worth looking into. You could also ask your H if you could sell them and use the money to buy yourself something that works for you.

I hate that I can't just TALK to him anymore. That it all has to be so specific. I understand why. I just...don't know how to get through all this.

This, in a nutshell, is the hardest part for me. I miss the relationship we had. Everything seems disconnected and difficult now. I feel like I'm carrying a big weight and I'm tired. Big hug to you. You're not alone.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

He was surprisingly okay about it all.

But I think it's because he's pulling away from me.

He's mentioned a woman at work, younger than me of course, and she is married. But that won't stop him from creating something in his mind and trying for something more.

 @pursuingjoy you commented on someone else's post about how they can take responsibility for their behavior, but you can keep things more calm by putting all the right pieces into place.

But, my husband has cheated. A lot. Our whole marriage apparently, and he didn't necessarily care because it's something he can justify (even if it's dumb to everyone else). I mean, he used vacation days to see her! She was just someone he found online who wanted to be treated like an object. But his mind turned in into something more and he ended up convincing himself he loved her.

If they don't get help, isn't it likely they will simply repeat that behavior, like I see him doing now?

He still wants to treat me like an object. He asked outright for something while we were on our way to car shop, and I'm not okay with that. Plus, he isn't one bit affectionate right now. Not at all. He used to put his hand on the back of my shoulder when he walked by or smack my ass (never did care for the last one, because it was often too hard, and he knew that). Nothing now.

We typically go to bed at the same time. He got upstairs first and by the time I finished reading to the youngest, and got ready, he was in bed and "sleeping." <--- doubtful

My favorite time was when we would talk before bed. He knows that. And now he's withholding that too.

He's abused me in different ways. I didn't realize it. How can either of us come back from that? Is that just who he is and who he is going to be?

If I could just hang on two years, we would have all debt but the house paid off. But I don't know if I can do that. I'm afraid he'll sneak around and *I* will end up with something. He doesn't pick women up in bars, he prefers to tell them the worst things about himself online. If they stick around, then there ya go.

I hate this for him and I hate this for me.

I told a family friend yesterday. She won't spread it beyond herself. She understands that if her husband, etc. treated him different, things could be bad.

I have a second therapy appointment today for the week. I just need guidance as to how to react with him without setting him off.

And to figure out how to get money into a separate PayPal account, so I can have a nest egg to begin with, but that's a "to do" item on my list.

[pursuingJoy]

I have a second therapy appointment today for the week. I just need guidance as to how to react with him without setting him off.

And to figure out how to get money into a separate PayPal account, so I can have a nest egg to begin with, but that's a "to do" item on my list.

You're taking some really practical, wise steps. I'm so glad you shared with a trusted friend, too - it's so important to get support.

I would find his behavior really hurtful too. He's violating boundaries right and left and that is not ok.

One thing I learned from setting boundaries was that it felt empowering to use my voice. The more I did it, the stronger I got. Whether you're speaking up about the shoes or reiterating again that you don't want to be treated like an object, use your voice. His response, no matter what it is, or where it's coming from, is secondary.

BPD's often have trouble sitting in in-between spaces - they don't do well with limbo or uncertainty in relationship. You're either all good or no good, and that's how they protect themselves. I think you're probably right that he's pulling away from you. That doesn't reflect on you - it's just his way of coping.

Yes, he's likely to repeat the behavior unless something (therapy, boundaries, etc) interrupt it. Has he seen a therapist?

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

He has, but his last therapist has made all of this one million times worse. My therapist actually Googled her yesterday because she can't believe she didn't pick up on any of this. His last therapist basically made it sound fine that he wanted an open marriage and that he was cheating. My therapist said it's like telling an alcoholic it's okay to get a job at a bar and have four shots a night.

So, dealing with the aftermath of him having positive feedback for his behavior and then me butting heads with him is...rough.

My therapist recommended someone whom she has worked with before. So, my husband agreed to meet virtually with this other therapist. With waivers, both of our therapists will discuss our sessions together and tackle this using this method.

It's hard to realize I've let myself be abused in all the ways. That's not what I want or who I am. I don't know how that happened.

Now that I'm standing up for myself, he's freaking out.

He again brought up his request from the day before. I told him it physically made me uncomfortable, I can't breathe, and I don't like it. He told me he needs it physically. HAHAHAHA Wait. You just told me you don't trust me and want space, but you are asking me for that? He said, well we are still married. OMG. What? What happened to what I need? I didn't say THAT, but jeez! Who doesn't care that their spouse can't breathe? 

So, yes, he asked for space yesterday. I asked what that meant and he was vague. He doesn't even know. I didn't fall apart because now I know how this works! I said okay.

We got home, I turned on my music, and rocked out in the kitchen while messing with dinner. At one point, he walked in while the youngest and I were dancing and drum soloing.

After dinner, I took a bike ride with the kids. Got back, turned my music back on, and cleaned up the kitchen. He headed in once and asked how long it would take because we haven't finished "Inside Out." (he's been all about Disney and I think maybe the reinforcement of family importance is a good thing).

I stated what I was doing and that I wasn't sure. He said to let him know.

I didn't pause or stop. I completed what I wanted to complete and then went in.

Afterward, I hopped on my computer to work on my site. He came into my office, sat down, asked what I was doing, told me he was bored, but that he would leave me to it.

It felt like a victory.

He's texted already this morning from work but I'm pretending I'm in the shower or sleeping or something. I am no longer immediately responding. I have things to do too.

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

At least, it feels that way sometimes, when I forget I've lost the guy I thought I had.Then it feels a bit more hollow, but at least I have self-respect. Or, at least I'm working on that.

My therapist pointed out how I was being abused again about something that I didn't even see that way.

I have a long way to go.

His family doc appt. is today (with an RA, that's all that was available the fastest) so we'll see. If he tells the truth, he'll get the referral.

*fingers crossed*

[pursuingJoy]

His last therapist basically made it sound fine that he wanted an open marriage and that he was cheating.

Just curious, did you hear this directly from his therapist or was he relaying it you?

Who doesn't care that their spouse can't breathe? 

I've had moments like this. Our marriage counselor saw it and observed later that he didn't or couldn't hear me. It wasn't my fault, it had to do with where he was. It's so frustrating.

His family doc appt. is today (with an RA, that's all that was available the fastest) so we'll see. If he tells the truth, he'll get the referral.

Referral to see a new therapist?

I'm super happy that you feel stronger. Big hug.  And it sounds like him seeing a new therapist, and the two therapists talking about your entire situation to settle on a joint approach is really best case scenario!

[I Am Redeemed]

It's not always easy to recognize abuse. I'm still processing some of the abusive behaviors that happened to me in my relationship with my ex. The physical abuse was obvious, but some of the other behaviors weren't.

I think it's great that you are going to a therapist and being honest about what is going on. It also sounds promising that he agreed to meet with a new therapist.

His old therapist may or may not have really said those things. He could have taken something she said and twisted it in his mind to fit his narrative that he is entitled to have sexual partners outside the marriage. Then he ran back and told you that she "agreed with him" in order to justify getting what he wanted. I also think it's highly probable that she didn't get the whole picture, just what he wanted her to hear.

It's good that you are recognizing the need to set boundaries. I'm sorry that he is still pressuring you to do something that makes you physically uncomfortable. Has your therapist discussed with you how to respond when he keeps bringing this up and telling you "he needs it" despite how it makes you feel?