Divorce financial proposal

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

STBeXW adding insult to injury sending an email yesterday chasing her ludicrous, inaccurate and practically unworkable divorce financial proposal among other things.

[Enabler]

STBeXW adding insult to injury sending an email yesterday chasing her ludicrous, inaccurate and practically unworkable divorce financial proposal among other things.

[Skip]

Are you going to counter her proposal?

[Enabler]

Yes, although I have to get legal counsel on some of the points before going back.

She tried to set up a meeting today with the mediator, although she piled in a bunch of child stuff as well which isn’t really his arena.

I asked her to put together an agenda for the meeting and pushed it back to mid Oct to give me time to formulate a robust counter (given new landscape) on legit legal grounds.

[Skip]

What is she asking for that is ludicrous and unworkable?

[kells76]

She tried to set up a meeting today with the mediator, although she piled in a bunch of child stuff as well which isn’t really his arena.

What is the mediation supposed to focus on?

[Enabler]

I have asked my W for an agenda for the meeting with the mediator as she loaded parenting and financial (legal) stuff into the email with him.

Skip, half my monthly income yet expected me to get a £300k mortgage to purchase a comparable house. The two are not comparable with each other.

[GaGrl]

I have a mediation registration. My suggestion on mediation is to schedule separate sessions for child/custody topics and financial topics. Agree on an agenda for each session. Stick to the agenda.

If your stbx becomes difficult in mediation, ask for separate rooms, with the mediator going back and forth between you. This is common (I prefer it.)

[Enabler]

Thanks  GaGrl,

I did the separate thing. I split the email and kept financial stuff with legal mediator and separate mail and agenda (I suggested) for child P.

I hear you on the 2 separate rooms, 1 room has worked well in the past in as much as W has turned up Ill prepared and mediator just kinda highlighted this.

[GaGrl]

Thanks  GaGrl,

I did the separate thing. I split the email and kept financial stuff with legal mediator and separate mail and agenda (I suggested) for child P.

I hear you on the 2 separate rooms, 1 room has worked well in the past in as much as W has turned up Ill prepared and mediator just kinda highlighted this.

One room can work it the true goal is for mediation to work. My ex and I did one-to-one mediation on child custody, and we agreed within a 90 minute session.

[Enabler]

Good (expensive) chat with lawyer on Wed. I have to take some of the advice with a pinch of salt since I got the impression she was trying to push me down a full service route.

Kids, she thought 50/50 was embedded and if I could prove (which thinks I have) that my employer is onboard and I can continue it would be a tough call to take that away. We discussed parenting historic and current and she thought I came across as credible moving from more of an authoritarian (bad cop) Dad to authoritative neutral parent. She liked a lot of things I was doing and liked that I could detail changes, had documented involvement and could see changes in the childrens behaviour as a result of the physical separation from W. She knew the child T we have been seeing and said that she would see straight through any attempts of my W to "recruit" her onto team W. She was also interested to hear about the parental alienation accusation and primed me on how to deal with the situation.

Finances, it was encouraging and she gave me a new perspective on how to look at things. She pressed home the courts appetite for individuals to mitigate their own circumstances and as such my W's need to increase earnings capacity (works 3 days a week & and does a days voluntary work) and receive available state benefits (she morally objected). It was nice to know this wasn't just mythical and she gave anecdotal examples of her clients who had been told by the judge when they refused to help themselves. I have plenty of homework and things I need to go back to my W with to resolve some immediate pressing issues.

New-Life

[ForeverDad]

Half my monthly income yet expected me to get a £300k mortgage to purchase a comparable house. The two are not comparable with each other.

The general idea, at least in my country, is that the parents split the equity of the house if it is sold.  If one parent will have the house, then the other parent still gets at most half the equity, not a comparable house all paid for.

Whether she gets alimony and for how long is a separate matter, often dependent on the length of the marriage and other circumstances.  (In my case my 18 year marriage by the end of the long divorce case was given 1/6 credit and so my alimony was just for 3 years as an aid for her transition from the marriage.  It was not an entitlement.)  And child support calculations are separate.

It is not surprising she is seeking overmuch.  (Would you expect any less demands from her, considering her self-centered personality disorder?)  What you have to do is keep your counteroffers limited to what is typical for negotiated outcomes.  Just because she made huge demands shouldn't trouble you, you just have to be that immovable wall in the face of irresistible force.

[GaGrl]

That sounds like an excellent reality-check, and we'll worth the expenditure!

Yes, keep child support and the financial settlement of marital assets separate. She may not want to let you do this. Stay focused.

[Enabler]

Much appreciated peeps.

So I believe that she has the 'process' a bit mixed up... or maybe not... She has started with an outcome and worked back from that. For example she has a 60/40% capital split in mind so started with that... which has resulted in her having a random £35k sloshing around at the end.

This is the process as I understand it:

Principle – The court prefers a capital clean-break, equal share of capital where possible

What are W's (and W's childcare responsibilities) reasonable housing needs? Can they be met with 50% of the capital?
Yes - 50/50 Capital Split
No - What is the shortfall of capital?   

Then

Can W fulfil that capital shortfall with a mortgage using a range of income, or does she need a greater share of the capital pot for a period of time to be repaid at a later date eg via a mesher order?
Yes she has mortgage capacity - 50/50 capital split + Mortgage    
No she does not have capacity - What is the shortfall in capital?
           

Then

What income does W's (and W's childcare responsibilities) need to reasonably support her needs and that of servicing the mortgage (if she needs one)?

Then

Principle – Future earnings are not a shareable asset

What income sources are available to W through independent sources? (Salary, Bonus, Universal Credit, Child benefit)

What income is W entitled to from New-Life? (Child maintenance)
What is the shortfall of the sum of these? (Income needs – (Salary+ Bonus + Universal Credit + Child benefit + Child maintenance)

Then

Principle – The court expects each individual to mitigate their own circumstances where possible and promotes financial independence as quickly as possible.

What income does W require from New-Life above and beyond Child Maintenance to meet her reasonable expenditure needs until she can achieve financial independence?

Is there a reasonable path to financial independence? What mitigating action is reasonable to expect and what is the timeline of that?

What reasonable milestones are there which might provide for a step-down in need for additional support?

What happens to other income sources upon mitigating action?

What is the optimal way for W to receive additional short term support such that it minimises the impacts on other income sources and optimises the collective outcomes?

I'm currently preparing a proposal response based on this methodology after consulting with a lawyer a week or so ago.

New-Life

[ForeverDad]

Understand that logic doesn't figure into the mindset of a person with BPD. 

I get the feeling you may offer too much.  With that in mind, you are entirely within your rights to set a time limit on any offer.  If rejected, then she can't come back and demand it if the case down the road doesn't go her way.  She's not entitled to pick and choose from among your prior settlement offers.  Don't feel obligated or guilted.

Disordered FOG:  Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

[Enabler]

Wise advice.

My D proposal is very methodical, breaking down each component based on what she has provided me in her rough and ready proposal.

In effect I am showing her what she has asked for is plausible, but providing her a solution that she gets 'it' for herself rather than I provide it for her. Simple things like rather than taking 60% capital to get a house for 550k she can achieve a mortgage of the difference she needs. She will not like it... but it's in line with the expectations of the legal system.

The answer to her problems are always going to be open and available to her, because she's pretty much entitled or is personally achievable to her anyway. It's just a case of having the willingness to achieve her potential rather than rely on me to provide an easy out for her. 

New-Life

[Fian]

Just curious.  If you had a divorce and there weren't any kids, and assuming you are a high earner, does alimony equal half your income?

[ForeverDad]

Your income next year (and future years) may be less than this year.  We are heading into an economic depression.  In this respect the recent past is not necessarily an insight into the future.  So be cautious, if you promise too much you may be hamstringing your future.  Sure, you'll have to pay your ex something but it would be wise to be as conservative as possible.

For example, some prognosticators are predicting $10K/ounce gold in the next 3-5 years.  That's a low estimate, some estimates are higher.  It's not so much that gold, silver, etc will be worth more, it's that many fiat currencies will be valued less or worth less.  Of course, maybe it won't be that bad.  But keep that in mind as you ponder how much to Gift your ex.

[Enabler]

Just curious.  If you had a divorce and there weren't any kids, and assuming you are a high earner, does alimony equal half your income?

I don't believe so by default. The point would be that if you were a high earning the definition of "needs" would be considered to be higher and thus the 'weaker' spouse would typically just claim income on the basis it was necessary to cover his/her reasonable "needs"... not all "needs" are equal.

It is reasonable however to taper the payments on the basis that the weaker spouse should become self sufficient as much as possible. One of the cornerstones of the system is mitigating YOUR OWN circumstances. Yes it maybe understandable that for a period of time there needs to be some support... but more and more it's considered that that support should be temporary... like ~5years max.

On the income front for my proposal the income is split into 2 sections, mandatory child support which is a UK Gov formula and an "additional child support payment" which bridges the gap between her available income from work, benefits, the mandatory support... and her reasonable expected needs. Over the next 5 years I have tapered the additional child support to reflect certain reasonable milestones such as 2 years to move from 3d a week to 5d and D7 going to secondary education. 

New-Life

[Skip]

To my understanding, a Mesher Order is typically used when the low earner (often wife) stays in the family home for an agreed upon time (e.g., until kids are 18) thereafter the home is sold and the equity split between the divorcing spouses. This is a secondary remedy that is used when there is a strong desire to keep the family home for the children and there not enough money in the community assets for the low earner to buy out the high earner with "their" share of the liquid assets.

Are you thinking you will move out of the house and let he move in? Or is your thought to purchase a second home before the divorce and co-own that one for ~ 10 years?

It seems to me that spending too much time trying to show her she can acquire and furnish her own $715,000 home is trip down a rabbit hole. It's probably worth while helping her with that trip, but something you should give her information about long before mediation so that she can come to grips with the reality of the situation...

Even if you were to buy a second house, put it in a trust, and provide her monthly financial assistance to make up the mortgage payments for 10 years (until youngest is 18), buy furniture, pay property tax, make mortgage payments, and pay the capital gains of the non-residing partner earnings, does this make sense for the family or either of you? Financially (e.g., housing cost too high a percentage of overall living costs)? What happens when bf starts do sleep overs and co-habitating, etc.? Will the kids need to keep it a secrete?

50/50% residency is a financial challenge - not the least of which is providing two four-five bedroom homes for the three children for 6-10 years. With her income (even at full time), a lot of that expense will fall to you.

Would it be better to relocate to lower priced town? Or renting so that you could drop to two three bedroom homes in 6 years?

Another option is to nest in place (kids stay at home and parents have alternate weeks)... but can you two actually work together? What happens when bf starts co-habitating, etc.?

What other options are you thinking about?

[ForeverDad]

Just so you're aware, "nest in place (kids stay at home and parents have alternate weeks)" seldom succeeds in our cases.  Not only does it mean that three homes would need to be maintained, but what works for us it for financial dealings together need to be reduced to the bare minimum with only the parental matters remaining.  Imagine just one scenario of what you would face if mom decides she can't leave the home when it is time for you to arrive because one of the kids is ill or some other claim.

The world is facing potentially large economic consequences, there is talk that we're at risk of slipping into a world depression.  You may feel financially secure now, but no one can predict either finances, health, etc 5 or 10 years into the future.  Give yourself some leeway to account for the unexpected.

[Enabler]

Hey Skip and ForeverDad,

At the moment nesting is not being considered and I don't believe it is a long term solution in our situation. I would like to retain the matrimonial home but this is dependant on the financial agreement as my mortgage capacity is dependant on the amount of income I have to pay away each month to her and the kids.

The lawyer I spoke to used the term 'mesher order' in the context of any instance where one party seeks to claim greater than 50% of the matrimonial capital to meet the short term needs to parent. For example where there was sufficient capital available to meet the weaker spouses needs, but not meet their AND the childrens needs. In this instance the additional capital would be given to the weaker party for a given period of time and then agreed to be returned. For example if my wife could not meet her reasonable housing needs with 50% of the capital AND Mortgage capacity to buy a 4 bedroom house she might be required to give the additional capital back at a time it was deemed she didn't need it i.e. when kids are all 18. My analysis and investigation into her mortgage capacity and affordability of that mortgage suggests that we don't need to go down that route and she can meet her self declared housing needs with 50% of the capital and an affordable mortgage.

My issue with explaining things to my wife is that every time I have attempted to tell her, or guide her, or even hint to her how she might frame this process or even verbalise preference, she has responded with aggressive emails claiming that I am "telling her" what should happen. The proposal I sent the other day was very very neutral laying out the process as I knew it, analysis in a very neutral manner and my offer. The only response I have received so far is a continuation of the rhetorical conversation we've been having for the last 2 months consisting of "what are you doing post divorce, I want to do that."

New-Life

[Skip]

Will your wife have the credit standing and earning capability to acquire a mortgage on a $715,000 house, post divorce? Earlier, you said she would qualify for public assistance.

My issue with explaining things to my wife is that every time I have attempted to tell her, or guide her, or even hint to her how she might frame this process or even verbalise preference, she has responded with aggressive emails claiming that I am "telling her" what should happen. The proposal I sent the other day was very very neutral laying out the process as I knew it, analysis in a very neutral manner and my offer. The only response I have received so far is a continuation of the rhetorical conversation we've been having for the last 2 months consisting of "what are you doing post divorce, I want to do that."

Irreconcilable differences don't resolve in divorce.

Realistically, you can't be (1) on the other side of a negotiation and (2) be her trusted council. It's a conflict of interest. She can't be negotiating with you and seeking your mentor-ship. It's foolhardy.

This is where lawyers, mediators, and the judge come in.

Your best play is to put things on the table that the mediators, and the judge see as "constant with formula" and "reasonable". Then let them council of tell her (judge) the way it is going to be.

50% of the matrimonial capital

Is this term used in UK family court? Do you mean joint "cash" or joint "property" or both?

Is "joint" contested for any property or cash (or investments)?

[Enabler]

Her reasonable housing needs are a £550k 4 bed property.

50% Matrimonial capital (Cash, stock, capital in the home, ex pensions) = £390k

Borrowing capacity based on acceptable income (salary, state benefits, child maintenance from me (proposed) (checked with bank lending criteria and did agreement in principle) = £170k

As and when I have put information on the table in a clear and concise format she has repeated rhetorical questioning. I don't believe that she is currently consulting a lawyer and instead reliant on the interpretation of the process from family and friends. She's very focused on my intentions to match that rather than determining her own direction and going it alone. I know it's the big bad ocean of scariness, BUT, this is the choice she has made, this is the freedom she wants. If I allow her to have her cake and eat it she will retain control over me... and I don't want that.

New-Life

[ForeverDad]

Your attempts to reason with your stbEx (soon to be Ex) are consistently failing, essentially just triggering her to retaliate with stubborn digging in on her perceptions.

You can't negotiate with her.  Time and time again she responds with her personal perspectives, not reasonable reality.  Why?  She can't see past the baggage of the ended relationship to actually listen to your negotiation attempts.  That's the PD if not BPD hindering her, the closer the relationship was, the greater the resistance.   One aspect of Skip's post is that you and your lawyer need to switch approaches and shift to negotiating with her lawyer and letting the judicial process proceed.  Although the judicial process can't be implicitly trusted to be neutral and fair to you — hence you need to vigorously defend your legal rights and strategies — the judicial process is less likely to be as unfair to you as her disordered perceptions and perspectives.

[Enabler]

The cost of taking this to final stage court is something in the region of 60k as per my lawyers estimates... and that's just my side. Although court has it's place I'd prefer for her to work things out for herself. I am very miffed how her extensive support group isn't at least nibbling away with a few words of wisdom here and there.

At the moment the rhetorical conversation seems to be around a mortgage we have expiring at the end of Nov... like proper expiring expiring not just off the 'deal' period. If we don't come up with a solution it goes into a default situation. The Bank's expiry team refuse to give us an extension unless one of two things are met... a court date OR the house is on the market. The mortgage sales team of exactly the same bank has offered us 1.5x what we need to borrow with full disclosure of the divorce situation. I can see why the sales team would... it's 30% Loan to value and that's excluding the capital we have in the bank so from a credit risk perspective it's a zero risk... plus I could afford the mortgage on my own income so there's no issue there. Despite providing her a near at dammit transcript of the conversation AND a reference for her to cross check at the bank, she is adamant that the only option available to us is to put the house on the market. I don't want to do this as it removes the option of me buying the house. That option maybe nonviable given a financial deal we come to... but under terms I have proposed it is.

I know she has other motivations for push that agenda namely that of D12 being in the house with me and she sees this as the nudge she needs to move out... but legally that's not a reason to put the house on the market. My lawyer suggested I could have an emergency hearing and the judge would sign on her behalf, but that seems like a sledgehammer cracking a nut. This is the problem when W uses one thing to get her way with another rather than working on the things she needs to... which is encouraging D12 to break her deadlock on visiting W's home.

New-Life

[Skip]

1. Going to a lawyer and starting the process of involving her was good. Glad you finally did this.

2. Going to the parenting therapist was and initiating the process jointly supported therapy was good. Glad you moved on that also.

Despite providing her a near at dammit transcript of the conversation AND a reference for her to cross check at the bank, she is adamant that the only option available to us is to put the house on the market. I don't want to do this as...

I think you may not reading the human nature correctly here.

She was humiliated and shamed in front of her kids over the affair. She knew that you have wanted this for months. She read between the lines and feels that you fanned the flames rather than protecting the kids (and her). You burned the bridge of goodwill forever.When the opportunity presents itself, she will seek payback.

The one person who is surely counseling her (her boy friend) was also humiliated and shamed in front of his girlfriend when he tried to offer an olive branch last year. When the opportunity presents itself, he will seek payback.

To be smart, you have to adjust to this reality. You're burned. You need a third party to close the deal.

How soon is the mediation (#3). Where are you (all three of you) in the mediation process.

1. Is there a full inventory of marital vs individual assets drawn? Have you both agreed to it, or is some of it in dispute?

2. Is there a schedule of what she needs to live - her expenses for food, shelter.
Have you both agreed to it, or is some of it in dispute?

These are usually the first two steps.

3. Doe she have a hard offer (or will she have a hard offer) prior to mediation?  Don't worry about the rationale until mediation - letter the mediator do the work - with each of you sitting in separate rooms.

[Enabler]

I can't say whether you're right or wrong about her being wounded and wanting vengeance. I can typically see that in her mood. I also don't know if OM is involving himself in the D process, he has experience as has been divorced before. I only say that because it's pretty apparent that the more process type stuff she's not had much advice on.

1 & 2 have been done and there's no dispute about the assets. Reasonable housing needs has changed as it was likely to and will likely change again in the coming months. The proposal I have given her offers her almost everything she asked for in her proposal but rather than me providing all of it for her, I illustrate how she can get much of it for herself.

I don't know if a response will be tabled before mediation. My proposal is pretty detailed so will take some time to digest and get advice on points of law.

New-Life

[Fian]

Let's look at this from a different perspective.  She currently has the house she wants, and you currently have the house you want (at least for now).  There doesn't seem to be much reason to come to any financial agreement as it will be less than she has now.  Why is it in her interest to agree to any financial terms?

[Enabler]

Let's look at this from a different perspective.  She currently has the house she wants, and you currently have the house you want (at least for now).  There doesn't seem to be much reason to come to any financial agreement as it will be less than she has now.  Why is it in her interest to agree to any financial terms?

She's currently living in a house she doesn't want. I'm currently living in the house both She and I want... however, stretching the limits of credit I 'might' be able to afford to raise the money to buy it from her. She was happy with the idea of neither of us having it, me providing for her needs rather than providing for her own, and generally having her cake and eating it... she's not so keen on the cake now I gave her the recipe of how to bake it, provided the ingredients and pointed her in the direction of the wooden spoons... same cake... same icing.

She wants the old life ex me. She looks at me potentially buying the house and says "I want that too, his life isn't going to change"... but she's missing big parts of the puzzle. Pre her divorce idea I was looking at being mortgage free in 5 years, we'd be paying for kids college, I'd be on easy streets by 55 killing the commute and knocking the hustle and bustle on the head... I might now be borrowing over half a million quid, but at the cost of later life. She on the other hand baulks at the prospects of having to work to a fraction of her capacity until her sugardaddy 'potentially' lifts her out of said hardship and provides her with the 'comfort' she's grown accustomed to, where her feelings denote her employment choices rather than the actual cold hard utility her efforts are worth.

New-Life

[Fian]

So what happens if nothing changes in next year?  Will her current situation improve with a divorce settlement?  I am just wondering how motivated she is to agree to financial terms.