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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Petition for discovery  (Read 4287 times)
JNChell
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 06:48:20 PM »

The 5th doesn’t fit in this. Thanks for the facts ff. Family courts are wide open under a facade of justice.
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2020, 09:44:14 PM »

What is she asking for in addition to child support?
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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2020, 12:59:35 AM »

As far as I can tell, complete control and very little time between S5 and I.
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2020, 07:01:32 AM »


Can you share the actual words here for control and the schedule?

What kind of $$ is she wanting?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2020, 07:17:31 AM »

[crossed with FF ]

Let's break it down.

1. Can you be more specific?

You mentioned child support. Did she detail how much or if she looking for just cash? Has she specified medical insurance costs? Daycare costs? Some states have very specific programs for determining child support:
Example: https://public.courts.in.gov/csc#/parents-home

If she hasn't disclosed this information, you can get it through discovery.

2. Custody

Did she mention sole legal custody? Supervised visitation? Has she proposed a visitation schedule? Different states have different practices. If she hasn't disclosed this information, you can get it through discovery.

Some states like Indiana have very specific schedules. In Indiana, for example,  the "standard" visitation for non-custodial parent is different at age 4 than at age 5.
https://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/parenting/#_Toc470850883

It also has an "no BS" clause to protect you:

Unacceptable excuses for denying parenting time include the following:

         The child unjustifiably hesitates or refuses to go.
The child has a minor illness.
The child has to go somewhere.
The child is not home.
The noncustodial parent is behind in support.
The custodial parent does not want the child to go.
The weather is bad (unless the weather makes travel unsafe).
The child has no clothes to wear.
The other parent failed to meet preconditions established by the custodial parent.

3. Has she proposed Temporary orders? Temporary orders would give you access to the child while the court case proceeds. Your December hearing has a high likelihood of being delayed (court dates are very fluid).

You can have your attorney contest her withholding the child and try to get agreement on temporary orders right away (in a few weeks).

4. Is your attorney a full time, divorce/family law attorney?
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2020, 07:59:35 AM »


I'm curious if a different point of view would be productive...

JNChell

I get it that family court doesn't appear to be a pathway to justice.  I'm wondering if different words might frame the discussion better.

What if instead of justice you were looking for a "more fair" situation?

What if you saw family court as an "ally"?  

Right now who is on your side?  Who has any influence against this BPDish force that has come between you and your son?

Since your son is young the active coparenting relationship will go on between you and your pwBPD for a while.

I have personal experience through my ex brother in law of what family court and BPD looks like.  Looking back the courts ending up "restraining" most of the worst impulses and "forced" a pwBPD and the children into counseling situations.  

Then over time, the youngest child (my niece...the older two are boys) started to see the pwBPD for what she was.  The "triggering event" was when the pwBPD tried to "show my niece the error of her ways" by renting a house (when niece was young teen) with three bedrooms.  She then took my niece on a tour of the house and showed "this is Mommy's room, this is your brothers room and this is your other brothers room".  (My niece was supposed to exclaim and beg and plead...but where is my room?)

My niece had been with a therapist long enough to know this was horrible, so she decided to walk away and live with my ex brother in law.  That was 3 or 4 years ago (man time flies..maybe longer).

My niece is much more relaxed and she and her Dad have a wonderful relationship.  A delight to be around.  Niece chooses very limited contact with her Mom, while leaving the door open to therapy with Mom.

Here is the thing...if it was left up to my sister in law in the beginning, there would have been no therapy, no visitation and also lots of child support paid.

My ex brother is law was deeply disappointed in the first few rulings, but over time they slowly got better AND he focused on the family therapy and his relationship with his kids.

In fact, he wasn't much "of a fighter" in court.  He was quick to take a deal, get out the door and get back to being a Dad with whatever time he had.  (you can imagine FF was encouraging him to take names and kick azz...and I was disappointed in his choices at the time)

A bit of a long winded story to make the point to you that family court is a bump in the road on your journey as a Dad.  Keep the focus on this and find people/agencies that can help you be a better Dad.

 
Please be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2020, 12:17:11 PM »

The verbiage used in the petition is the State Guidelines. She wants sole custody only allowing me visitation. The money was also stated as State Guidelines (the formula). This petition is asking for personal information of my friends and family. I don’t understand that part this early in the process. She has agreed to mediation. Why is her attorney being a pit bull so early on?

All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome. As his father, I need to be in the loop of whatever is going on with him. His healthcare, education and so on. His mom has blocked me from all of that. He’s almost 6, and I’ve been allowed to take him to 1 doctor appointment, and they almost wouldn’t see him because they didn’t know who I was.

I’ve just recently taken a 3rd shift job so that my days are open to be able to take him to these appointments when they arise. Obviously nothing is concrete yet, but I’m making space. I think it’s important for a dad to take his boy to these things. It shows him support and that dad is there for him, and it gives me piece of mind to know and understand what is going on with my Son.

Family Court as an ally:
I understand what you’re saying, and I’ve thought about that a lot. S5’s mom and myself need the help of the court because we have been unable to come to reasonable solutions between ourselves. S5’s mom and myself need this intervention to ensure the best outcome that is possible for S5.

Thanks for the testimony. It’s enlightening.
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2020, 12:25:55 PM »

  His mom has blocked me from all of that.

And your pathway to become unblocked is through...? 


I’ve just recently taken a 3rd shift job so that my days are open to be able to take him to these appointments when they arise.


Yes..yes...I'm doing the jig.  This is exactly the kind of thing to "lead with" and then focus solutions on your son.

So you are not only asking for appointments...you want custody on a schedule during the day and then when you go to work he goes to sleep at Mom's house.  Perhaps sleeping at your place on weekends.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2020, 01:07:46 PM »

That’s what I’m trying for.
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2020, 04:23:15 PM »

This petition is asking for personal information of my friends and family.
I don’t understand that part this early in the process. She has agreed to mediation. Why is her attorney being a pit bull so early on?

I think this is correct. You are not understanding the legal procedures. You have some expectation for how the process should unfold which is different than the way it actually unfolds. Her lawyer is preparing to go to court and win a judgement. The mediation is a excursion to see if you two can settle this and save lawyer fees and time... but the lawyer is preparing as if he has a court case. In the mediation, her lawyer is going to share with the mediator why he feels he has a strong case based on evidence. Your lawyer will do the same. The mediator is going to tell everyone, indirectly, how he thinks the judge will rule or how much risk you have to see if you will compromise.

That is how you settle.

The verbiage used in the petition is.
She wants sole custody
Visitation per the State Guidelines [as the custodial parent]
The money was also stated as State Guidelines.

So she is amenable to the standard package given to most families. Good. She is not trying to block your access or force you into supervised visitation. Be sure to review/confirm that with your lawyer. But, for the sake of general conversation, lets assume it's standard.

S5’s mom and myself need the help of the court because we have been unable to come to reasonable solutions between ourselves. S5’s mom and myself need this intervention to ensure the best outcome that is possible for S5.

Unfortunately, the courts way to do this is to give all the decisions to one party. Then there is no bickering. If she has a flash drive full of belligerent texts spanning months, the judge is going to be inclined to limit what the two of you need to talk about or negotiate and he is going to limit the number of physical  "handoffs" by sticking to standards.

All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome.

State Guidelines say the above of is a fair and reasonable outcome. If that is "All I hope for", you're there.

Do you now know why I said don't say "All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome".

Bottom line: If you accept the visitation and child support (maybe with some adjustments like a ramp up period),  you could probably negotiate some limited but important area's where you share decision making such as relocation, legal name, etc.,. and you could get an agreement on a parenting plan that talks about specific situations...

...you could sign and agreement and move forward quickly.

So you are not only asking for appointments...you want custody on a schedule during the day and then when you go to work he goes to sleep at Mom's house.  Perhaps sleeping at your place on weekends.

If you want to significantly deviate from the standard visitation, negotiate child support significantly different from the standard, and have 50%/50% shared decision making, she will likely just let it go to court and take her chances with what the judge will say (which could take a year or longer before its all done), .

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I giving you legal advise, I'm just trying to give you a 35,000 perspective on what is going on here, what the moving pieces are.

Family court runs by formula and it takes effort to get the courts to agree to deviations. It's not an "everything is on the table" negotiation. Unless both of you are talk openly and trust that each other, you are pretty bound to the formula.

Does that help?
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2020, 06:19:41 PM »


So...in mediation, be willing to give up something else (above formula) to get to something you want that is (above formula).

Plus that will give your L some ammo to show that you are positioning yourself to be an "above average" Dad.  (this will hopefully provide some counterbalance to any big pile of bad texts that my show you to be contrary)

Something Skip mentioned that you should discuss with your L.  If in mediation or anytime early in the process you get a standard formula offer, you should probably take it...quickly.

The hard discussion you have to have with your L is  "what ammo do we possess that if we go to trial, we can move the judge away from the formula" and also "what ammo do they possess that if we go to trial can move the judge away from the formula"

Then..things should be much more clear to you.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2020, 12:22:57 AM »

I agree. The judge has to be moved away from the formula.
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2020, 08:13:00 AM »

The judge has to be moved away from the formula.

So what are you thinking?

There are three parts. Custody. Visitation. Child support.

Visitation How specifically would you want to modify the standard visitation? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?
https://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/parenting/#_Toc470850883

One example might be that on your weekends, you pick him up from school on Friday and drop him off at school Monday morning. The rationale would be to minimize awkward exchanges.

Child support How specifically would you want to modify the standards for child support? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?
https://public.courts.in.gov/csc#/parents-home

Custody She is asking for 100%. This is often done by courts when the parties can't work together. By your own admission, you two have a long history of not being able to make decisions together. How would you change this? If you were to compromise and  carve out some specific topics that are joint, what would they be (e.g. adoption, name change, faith change, relocation) in rank order with the most important one first. By rank order I mean assume you wouldn't get them all and a judge would draw the line at 1 or 3 of 7, what rank order list would you submit? What would be brief rationale for each.

Pick one (custody. visitation. child support). Let's talk about it.
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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2020, 10:30:56 AM »


How long until mediation?

Whatever path you choose to go on/go after, I can't stress enough that you need to be prepared and focus on what you want, be prepared to give up something significant (incentivize her), and be prepared to move quickly.

Can you reflect back to us why we are advising you to move quickly?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2020, 02:49:06 PM »

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2020, 03:22:56 PM »

Skip

Visitation How specifically would you want to modify the standard visitation? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?

I’m asking for 3 weekends per month. This is because I took on a third shift job to keep my daytime hours open for S5 for doctor appointments, school meetings, dental appointments, etc. His mom has purposely blocked me from all of that. I don’t even know where he’s going to school, but I’m making space by working 3 rd shift to be able to be involved. It’s not a sacrifice, it’s necessary for S5 to know that his dad is there to support him.

I don’t know about child support. I was paying her until she said stop. She’s on many government handouts. Her boyfriend lives with her so expenses are shared. She lives in a suburban neighborhood in a 3 bedroom 2 bath house. 6 people live there. She has custody of 2 second cousins. I’m sure that she’s getting money from that. She has a daughter from her ex husband that is not paying support. I don’t really know because I have no idea what’s going on with him. I’m blocked from everything. She has refused to let me in on that aspect. She has told me that I don’t have any rights to him and that she will be making all the decisions.

I would change it with the help of the courts or mediation. She and I can’t do this, so we need intervention that is hopefully beneficial for S5. I picked them all.
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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2020, 03:25:58 PM »

ff, I’m not sure about a mediation date. The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2. Ironically, that’s his birthday. 5:38 p.m.

I need to move quickly because I need to be prepared.
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« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2020, 03:30:30 PM »

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?

If it goes all the way to court, you both will be heavily punished by the legal fees. Behavior by either parent will be considered by the judge in making the best choice for the child... but generally the judge will be most concerned with doing what it takes to help the child have as constructive relationship with both parents as possible.

The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2.

You have a lawyer. She has a lawyer. Why don't you have your lawyer make a formal request to her lawyer for to have access to your son every other weekend and for 4 hours one day mid-week now? Let them set it up and work it so the two of you don't have to communicate or cross paths.

ff, I’m not sure about a mediation date. The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2.

The court will allow you to delay the date so that you can mediate. They want you to settle out of court if possible. Better for you. Better for the state.

I’m asking for 3 weekends per month.

There really isn't a schedule like that. The standard is a 60/40% schedule.

A 50%/50% looks like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/

A 70%/30% looks like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/70-30/
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« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2020, 03:39:26 PM »

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?
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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2020, 03:42:09 PM »

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?

Even before temporary orders, I would say I want the boy next weekend and the weekend two weeks later (or something like that). Have the lawyer demand access. If they say no, it will help you show bad faith.

DON'T TEXT HER. Let the lawyers do the talking.
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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2020, 03:46:02 PM »

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.
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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2020, 03:47:10 PM »

I’m definitely not going to text her.
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2020, 04:08:06 PM »

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.

JNChell, her paralegal represents her interests, not yours. Besides, as it was said earlier, it is unethical with her lawyer or staff to work with you directly.  

Here are the Bar Associations Rules of Professional Conduct:

       Rule 4.2 - Communication with Person Represented by Counsel

In representing a client, a lawyer shall not communicate about the subject of the representation with a person the lawyer knows to be represented by another lawyer in the matter, unless the lawyer has the consent of the other lawyer or is authorized by law or a court order.

Ind. R. Prof'l. Cond. 4.2
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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2020, 04:09:59 PM »

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?

Doubtful that she will AND I think it would be unwise for you to pursue it.  I get it that likely isn't the answer you were hoping to hear.

Skip and others (and if you wanted to look over my earlier posts) can verify I wasn't (and perhaps still am) shy about "fighting" or "conflict".  I tell you this because there is a part of me that see's the injustice and wants to make it right...by whatever means needed. 

I share the story about my niece and ex brother in law because in the moment(s) I was rooting for him to "fight" with my sister in law, he had her dead to rights a few times, even skipped having her prosecuted for filing a false police report.

He had a very wise lawyer that encouraged him to focus on solutions he could live with and also to focus on counseling and long term relationships with his kids.  (no focus at all in "the battle of the moment").

Well...since he didn't fight with SIL...over time, she tried less and less to engage him in drama/fights.  All of his extra energy was focused on his kids.  He is "content" with where he is in his relationships with all his kids 2 boys and girl, and he and his daughter are a delight to be around. 

SIL is off doing her thing...4 or 5 marriages behind her (my ex bro in law was first) and she's kinda living with a guy now.  I don't think about her much.  I think about my niece often.

Again...a bit of long winded stuff from FF to attempt to focus you AWAY from "calling to account" and towards "a future you can live with". 

Once you find "contentment" with your son I think it will build into more than that.

In the meantime...be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF
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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2020, 04:17:07 PM »


Did some cross posting.

JNChell..I'm still getting to know you.

I'm a bureaucrat at heart, love to sit around and talk about process and all that kind of stuff.  I want to understand the "why" behind process and paperwork.

Anyway...I'm getting the vibe you aren't a "process" guy. (that's ok)   Well...it's ok in a general sense, but I assure you that you will benefit greatly from learning about the process of lawyers, courts and all that.

Basically...all roads go through YOUR paralegal or your L.  Your L will guide you in this.

I've hired some where L and I texted at all kinds of odd hours and one of the current Ls I've retained on a matter does everything through his paralegal.  (I've talked to her perhaps 10 times and him perhaps 2 or 3).

I can't stress enough to let everything flow to and then "through" your attorney...EVERYTHING.  Until you are specifically cleared to start doing something directly.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2020, 04:21:25 PM »

Holy PLEASE READ.! I’ve never read anything like that, ff.. The mom can withhold the child with impunity. Disgusting. Infuriating.

I just want to see my Son. He and I need our time together.
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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2020, 04:31:54 PM »

Yeah, I’m fairly fluid. I’m a Libertarian that leans heavily to the right. I’m really not a process type of guy. I can be if the task at hand requires it, but it’s not a habit. It’s on notice.

The process of lawyers. What do you mean?

Cleared to do something directly. I think I get it but I’m not quite sure.
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Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2020, 04:54:09 PM »


Any communication to "her" or "her people" or "her team" needs to go "through" your lawyers.  Most likely they will actually communicate it for you or perhaps they will instruct you on exactly what to say.

Best,

FF
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2020, 05:33:20 PM »

yeah, I hope so. I want to see my boy. It’s almost crippling. I want to hug my child. It’s hard to not loose my temper. I want to hit things. I’m mad. I can’t see my Son, and I’m very mad about that. I know the truth about everything, but it’s not able to matter.

Should we dedicate this thread to talking strategy and tactics and use the other thread to talk about feelings?
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Posts: 8817


« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2020, 05:35:16 PM »

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?

What has your attorney communicated so far? Take a look at the letter. Let's break this down.  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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