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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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grumpydonut
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« on: September 23, 2020, 08:20:10 PM »

Quick history.

Cheated on by diagnosed BPD gf in June 2019.
Begged me to stay.
In December she decides she needs space to work on her issues.
Jan - March, push pull and crazy behaviour.
Dumps me officially in March, while telling me she loves me but can't be in a relationship.
Instantly dating the guy she cheated on me with.

Anyway, I've always felt I needed to know if she was seeing this man between Jan - March while stringing me along, making promises to get better. Last night I went hunting for proof, to find a photo from Feb 1 of her and him at a wedding together ...

I then read through our chat history. On Feb 5 she said she had been up until 230am the night prior because she couldn't stop thinking about me. A bit later, she said that most days all she thinks about is me and coming back to me, but other times she feels nothing.

My question is, what the hell? What is going on here? If she's seeing him behind my back, why is she also saying she's thinking about me?

After she left me for him, she tried adding me on FB via a fake account in May, stalked my FB stories in June and contacted my friend under false pretences in July.

I will note, that in December I constantly tried to block her and cut her from my life to protect myself. I have re-read these texts, and she is begging me to allow her to have a chance to fix herself and come back, but I'm not having any of it. I can definitely see how I triggered her fear of abandonment, but only because she was pushing me away and seemed to be sabotaging the relationship and I wanted to protect myself!
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 02:03:12 AM »

My question is, what the hell? What is going on here?

What is happening is BPD. There's nothing much to add. While in rs  I had similar timelines that didn't add up, and also timelines which upon investigation got her caught cheating.

I am sorry that you're going through this.
But since this is detaching forum, I'll advise you not to get dragged into analysing this stuff. At best nothing will change, at worst you will be devastated. So be kind to yourself and just let it be - no outcome of these investigations serves you, so drop it. I am not saying to be blind to the truth. But the truth is complete when you hear the word BPD, other details are just trinkets of the disfunction. Ofter times you're better off not knowing. It is even easier for you to detach if your trauma-bond doesn't get activated by feelings of insecurity that such musings can bring up.
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 03:34:59 AM »

as for whether she was cheating on you between january and march, youre not likely to know definitively.

you can make some reasonable deductions.

1. she had cheated previously

2. she had a photo with him. there was some level of contact. how much isnt clear.

Excerpt
If she's seeing him behind my back, why is she also saying she's thinking about me?

to understand this, you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who, when struggling with an ongoing relationship, looks elsewhere. right now, i imagine thats difficult to do.

i know that in my case, my ex met the guy she would leave me for, about a full year before it all happened. i dont think anything significant happened around that time, if anything at all. i know the seed was planted at some point, but i have no idea when. i do know that in that final year, the writing was on the wall for our relationship, i just didnt see it at the time. i know that things got just really ugly between us, over things that had been simmering for a long time. i know that i emotionally abandoned the relationship. i know, with some certainty, that she had cheated with others.

and i know that if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who, when struggling with an ongoing relationship, looks elsewhere, you will know that they tend to have a lot of fears about what theyre doing, and second, third, fourth thoughts. theyre not yet in the place where they are prepared to make that leap. they may be swinging, back and forth, wildly. the new relationship isnt a sure thing. it may not be the right thing. there are aspects of the old (current) relationship that arent fully grieved, and may be missed. we long for the good times; so do they.

cyber spying on you after the fact is really just a manifestation of that.

part of the answer to what was going on lies in what was happening january-march. what sort of push pull and crazy behavior? tell us more.

but know that thats only a part of it. the writing was on the wall by june 2019, and there was trouble in paradise long before that.

you can learn much from each period, you can add things up, but what was going on was longstanding.
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 03:44:52 AM »

Regarding push/pull. I would constantly say "I can't do this, you have gone from saying I'm the best person in your life and you want only me, to now ignoring me". At this point, she'd say anything to keep me on the hook. One time I said goodbye (which I now know was after she had been with him at a wedding) and she randomly showed up at my place. She had nothing new to say. She asked me to take her into my room and snuggle her.

Then, on a number of occasions, she'd say "maybe if you just let me get better, move on with your life and if I get better I can come back to you and see if you're available?".

The push / pull was basically. Don't leave me, but I also don't want you. But she'd constantly point out that she just needed to get better, and then also say things that clearly showed she had devalued me and was nit picking every aspect of everything. When I'd agree to her new wants, she would move the goalposts. Nothing was ever enough.

I said point blank "if you want to be with someone else, let's just go no contact" and she'd say there isn't anyone else (I now know there was) and I'd continue to wait for her to come back.

Oh, another crazy thing. After the wedding, she said she had spent hours a couple days later trying to find me on dating websites.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 04:17:13 AM »

that helps a lot, gd.

lets walk this through.

cheating kills probably more than 99% of relationships it effects. there are exceptions. they are mostly long term married partners that have grown apart, one party had an affair, and that affair becomes something of a wake up call where both parties acknowledge the gulf in their relationship, reinvest, and rebuild a foundation even stronger.

and even in those cases...even in the best of cases, its a trust killer.

a trust killer, in a relationship with a person who inherently distrusts romantic partners, and where more than likely, it shattered trust for you.

that in and of itself is extremely difficult to come back from. she most likely had shame over it. you most likely had shame over it, and resentment toward her.

its hard to say where your relationship was before that. maybe it was at an all time high. maybe it was at an all time low. maybe it was lacking spark. maybe she made an impulsive move that shed always regret.

but more than likely, the two of you, if you werent already, were on very different pages from that point on. each of you with mixed, and even competing feelings about the relationship. maybe you wanted it more when she wanted it less, and maybe she wanted it more when you wanted it less. maybe you both wanted to get back to the good old days. maybe you both had very different ideas of what the good old days were about. im spitballing, a bit, but any of that would serve to deepen the divide, and the trust.

but december, when she decided she needed space to work on this, was a culmination of the fact that whatever was between you (cheating included) had become too much for her, and for the relationship.

sometimes both parties hang on past the relationships expiration date. i dare say that applies to the vast majority of us here; it did for me.

and when that happens, you have months like january-march. where both parties are hanging on, and maybe while simultaneously trying to let go; think about it: you were both saying "dont leave me, but i also dont want you". because theyre both, at the end of the day, conflicted, and on different pages.

its a heartbreaking, romeo and juliet kind of thing, where it was too bad to stay, too good to leave, and each party adapted to that in the best way that they knew how...a way that ultimately wasnt sustainable and prolonged the agony, until something had to give.

thats my take on it. what do you think?
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 04:33:30 AM »

The only part I don't understand is that, if that's true regarding Jan - March, why did she keep coming after me whenever I said "if you don't want this, then let's end for good". Even in March when she broke it off, she said "I just wish we could continue to talk".

In late Feb "do I have to be 100% better to come back?". And "I'm just going to keep trying to get better, there's no one else and I'm not looking".

Meanwhile, that wasn't true. If she's trying to let go, then why are her actions always the opposite of that when I tried to make it easy for her to do so? She went to a wedding Feb 2, I wrote her a message Feb 5 about ending for good, and she turned up on my doorstep that arvo.
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 04:46:36 AM »

Sorry, one more thing. The day before she ended things officially in March, I said "you're never coming back" to which she said "you don't know that". Then the next day she blamed me for everything and shamed me for telling her that I wasn't perfect after she cheated because I was still trying to heal myself. She said "see, you're going to be using that against me forever". This despite the fact she knew she was leaving me for him.
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 05:01:43 AM »

the same reason you were trying to pull away, but didnt/couldnt.

at that time, she was not prepared to let go.

the very, very last time that i saw my ex, she told me it was as if she had fallen in love with me all over again. i was kind of dumbfounded upon hearing that. but it had actually been several weeks since wed seen each other, and there were several weeks before that (thats a lifetime in a young relationship). i had taken a lot of space i felt was needed and felt ready to get back to it. she had mostly grieved the relationship, but remembered the good times. and it was a good weekend. we didnt even fight. i took her to an ozzy concert, and we had a blast. but it was too late.

and of course, you have to take bpd traits into account.

Excerpt
Even in March when she broke it off, she said "I just wish we could continue to talk".

generally speaking, people with bpd traits dont like a clean break. theyre more likely to want to be friends, to send mixed signals after a breakup, to invade your space, all of those sorts of things. personally, ive been there myself, so i kind of get it. its hard to imagine (for me at least) the love of your life gone forever.

Excerpt
In late Feb "do I have to be 100% better to come back?". And "I'm just going to keep trying to get better, there's no one else and I'm not looking".

i think what im trying to get across is that at that point, she was conflicted; you both were.

and "conflicted" can be that much more complex, that much more wild, that much more of a wild swing back and forth when you have bpd traits.

i didnt have it in me to walk away from my relationship in a clean way. neither did my ex. neither did you, and neither did your ex. in your case, and in my case, something finally gave. a new relationship helps to make that happen, it softens the landing, softens the transition. when the old relationship is too difficult, too challenging, and the new relationship is "ripe" so to speak, its easier to take that leap than to deal with the grief, the closure, etc. you just compartmentalize and go all in.

Excerpt
Then the next day she blamed me for everything and shamed me for telling her that I wasn't perfect after she cheated because I was still trying to heal myself. She said "see, you're going to be using that against me forever".

it was at a dead end, man; her cheating was clearly a sticking point between the two of you. and you and i both, at that point, didnt know it, or more accurately, we did, but it wasnt what we wanted, we werent ready. our exes, on some level knew it, and acted, and pulled the rug out from underneath us.

thats just how it happens when a relationship goes beyond its expiration date. both parties use unhealthy coping mechanisms, the relationship deteriorates, until something has to give, and one has to take drastic measures to jump ship.
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 06:12:31 AM »

I guess that's one take away from all this. It's all much more complex than him being better than me.

I think seeing that photo last night, then reading her telling me she still wanted to be with me and still thought about me made me realise that it's not a case of him being superior, but her needing to have someone to comfort her. That also makes sense of why she stalked me afterwards, also.

I don't understand why she self sabotaged the relationship the way she did, and I never will.
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 06:23:17 AM »

I guess that's one take away from all this. It's all much more complex than him being better than me.

I don't understand why she self sabotaged the relationship the way she did, and I never will.

Why would you ever think that cheating or dissolution of relationships are about someone being better or worse? Where is this need for comparison coming from? Do you believe these sorts of judgments to be a reflection of the real world?

If she had BPD, the disorder tells them to self-sabotage. It's all been set up before you even met. I would wager that the same applies to codependents. So if a codependent and a BPD meet they are really not living, but replaying a script.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2020, 06:24:23 AM »

Being replaced by a person she cheated on 9 months prior is of naturally going to make me question my self worth.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2020, 06:29:20 AM »

youll understand the place she was coming from when she sabotaged the relationship when you understand why you did as well.

too good to leave, too bad to stay.
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2020, 06:31:19 AM »

Being replaced by a person she cheated on 9 months prior is of naturally going to make me question my self worth.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, so please tell me if I am. And it is completely understandable to feel this way, and I feel sorry that you are going through this. I have very similar thoughts. But all I learnt is to really distrust them. If you are anything like me, this way of thinking was installed in me by some past trauma. If someone cheats on you, and someone is the one who they're cheating with, they're garbage, regardless of how the relationship was, there is no excuse to do that. No one should do that. This low self worth is probably what got you in this mess in the first place, it was probably there before you started dating.

I guess if you feel like there was a part of you that sabotaged the relationship as well, then surely you can understand her and her reasons for doing it? It's called emotional immaturity. I was guilty of that. And BPDs are guilty more than enyone else. All these qualities, that we have to one extent or other, are eerily close to what we all complain about in our BPD partners, isn't it ironic? It's codependency. It's not cheating or replacement that makes you question our self-worth, it's the fact that due to codependency there was none to start with.

*By "garbage" I mean nothing bad. Just to over-emphasize, that all they do is survive on a lower level, they don't know any better. But this is precisely the reason you shouldn't feel "less-than".
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2020, 06:48:29 AM »

If someone cheats on you, and someone is the one who they're cheating with, they're garbage, regardless of how the relationship was, there is no excuse to do that. No one should do that.

It might be over simplifying a bit  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

If someone hits you, theyre garbage, it should be over.

If someone cheats, theyre garbage, it should be over.

If a parent abuses a child, theyre garbage, it should be over.

Lots of relationships recover from these things. Many dont.

We are all here because we were caught up in a toxic relationship in which we struggled, and are struggling in the aftermath with complex and complicated, very real wounds that we have to disentangle. For all of us, there are enough lessons to learn for a lifetime.

We are all here because we remained in relationship that long outlived its expiration date.

The key isnt avoiding ever getting in a bad relationship, or one where we will struggle, again. That will happen.

The key is learning to recognize a dead end incompatible relationship and making haed, but better choices.
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2020, 06:50:57 AM »

What do you mean by me sabotaging the relationship, though?
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2020, 06:57:38 AM »

You tried to walk away. You said as much in your op.

I did too. But neither you nor i were really done, even though the relationship, ultimately was. We hung on for months.

Make no mistake, our partners felt this. And they reacted.

January-march was just the manifestation of two people coping in a relationship that was dead...each in a different way. One gave up before the other was ready to.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2020, 07:06:47 AM »

What do you mean by me sabotaging the relationship, though?

Once again, just my opinion, I admit I work with a lot of assumptions, so please ignore if it's inaccurate:
You got cheated on and continued the relationship, or a relationship of sorts, right? That is self-sabotage - you said how much you hate being in this state of jealousy - you sabotage your relationship with yourself, and by extention every relationship outside that you take part in.

You witnessed something that in your heart of hearts destroys the most important aspect of a rs: trust, and you stayed.
She did exactly the same thing, destroyed trust and stayed, just the other way round. You BOTH were surviving in the relationship that you should have recognised as already dead - that's what I meant by saying sabotage.

I am not judging. I did the same thing - both versions, I'm guilty of it, but it's due to my own emotional immaturity.

If someone hits you, theyre garbage, it should be over.
If someone cheats, theyre garbage, it should be over.
If a parent abuses a child, theyre garbage, it should be over.
Lots of relationships recover from these things. Many dont.


I agree. My point about being "garbage" was made on the assumption that it was a dead end, and all that happened was impersonal and shouldn't be taken as a proof of being "less-than".
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2020, 07:23:34 AM »

Yeah, I think you're both right.

I knew it was dead the moment she cheated, but I wanted to stay because I loved her. But there were moments I knew I wouldn't recover.

When she left in Dec, it was just another dagger to deal with and I just wanted a safe out so I could mourn and move on. But I still loved her and I wanted so badly for her to heal herself so we could try again. I can see how me trying to protect myself triggered her fear of abandonment, but she had also triggered me. I just wanted her to love me and come back, but I could feel that she was going to detach under the guise of "healing" and hurt me. Ultimately, she did exactly what I expected her to do.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2020, 08:08:26 AM »

When she left in Dec, it was just another dagger to deal with and I just wanted a safe out so I could mourn and move on. But I still loved her and I wanted so badly for her to heal herself so we could try again. I can see how me trying to protect myself triggered her fear of abandonment, but she had also triggered me. I just wanted her to love me and come back, but I could feel that she was going to detach under the guise of "healing" and hurt me. Ultimately, she did exactly what I expected her to do.

I hear you. I am going through exactly the same feelings. I know how hard this is.

But I still loved her and I wanted so badly for her to heal herself so we could try again.
Exactly like me. We both tried and failed. And for all the love that it seemingly expresses, it's time to recognise that this "want for her to heal" is pretty much codependency and not true love. Every spouse of every addict throughtout history said the same thing. It's magical thinking and its ultimately the source of a lot of suffering.

I just wanted her to love me and come back, but I could feel that she was going to detach under the guise of "healing" and hurt me.
Because you lost trust when she cheated on you.

Ultimately, she did exactly what I expected her to do.
And you did what she expected of you. Precisely for the same reason: because of BPD she had no trust to start with. It's really tragic how all of this is orchestrated.

Stay strong. You're doing an amazing job trying to understand all this.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2020, 08:33:02 AM »

Hey Din Din,

I agree aside from codependency. I loved this girl, at least I think I did.

And yeah, I agree. She thought I was going to abandon her, but it was her self sabotage that led me to want to do so.
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2020, 11:21:38 AM »


i didnt have it in me to walk away from my relationship in a clean way. neither did my ex. neither did you, and neither did your ex. in your case, and in my case, something finally gave. a new relationship helps to make that happen, it softens the landing, softens the transition. when the old relationship is too difficult, too challenging, and the new relationship is "ripe" so to speak, its easier to take that leap than to deal with the grief, the closure, etc. you just compartmentalize and go all in.



thats just how it happens when a relationship goes beyond its expiration date. both parties use unhealthy coping mechanisms, the relationship deteriorates, until something has to give, and one has to take drastic measures to jump ship.

I can relate a lot to what you said here, once removed. My uPBD ex-g/f left me because I wouldn't commit to marriage due to her issues and ran right to her rebound man I can assume to soften the blow of our breakup like you stated above and also so she doesn't have to be alone (her greatest fear). I'm just not wired that way, and I can't jump from one relationship to the other.

She and I have a mutual friend that acknowledges my ex is mentally ill and needs help. I learned through this mutual friend that my ex started hitting up her rebound man about two months ago for marriage (3 months into her relationship with him). He said he wasn't interested in marriage. Last evening I heard through our mutual friend that she has now asked him to move in with her and her children since he isn't interested marriage. This is a strange departure for her because she didn't believe in living together before marriage, so must be she's thrown religion completely out the window due to her fear of abandonment and being alone. It's funny (really sad) how what she tried to prevent in her relationship with me  appears to be repeating itself with this guy as well. They say she's over the top on social media making posts showering him with praise and adornment to try and win him over. It's just like watching myself all over again through another person, but I am so fortunate that it's not me.



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