Can this ship be turned around? Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346556.0

FF, I understand what you’re saying. But if I’m to not make things worse, then not taking to her about the trip seems like it would be invalidating.
I have long accepted that I will be blamed for everything. If I was perfect, she would still find something to be upset about. So that’s not my concern.
I’m trying to do things differently and use the tools. So I would like to be able to approach this effectively. I can leave out the couch issue, that’s easy. But I just want to make sure that I’m at least validating in how I talk to her.

Here’s what I have in mind: “After getting your messages earlier about going and packing I got things ready.  We will be at bla bla bla. We will be back on Sunday.”

[RestlessWanderer]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346556.0

FF, I understand what you’re saying. But if I’m to not make things worse, then not taking to her about the trip seems like it would be invalidating.
I have long accepted that I will be blamed for everything. If I was perfect, she would still find something to be upset about. So that’s not my concern.
I’m trying to do things differently and use the tools. So I would like to be able to approach this effectively. I can leave out the couch issue, that’s easy. But I just want to make sure that I’m at least validating in how I talk to her.

Here’s what I have in mind: “After getting your messages earlier about going and packing I got things ready.  We will be at bla bla bla. We will be back on Sunday.”

[formflier]

 But if I’m to not make things worse, then not taking to her about the trip seems like it would be invalidating.
 

What else is there to talk about?  She told you to GO!

Any chance gifts are a good love language for her?  Stop an pick something up for her along the way.

"I was thinking of you and thought this scarf would go so well with your favorite outfit.."

Instead of hyper focusing on "THE TRIP" and tinier and tinier details...all of which can be argued about.   Shift the discussion.  Take charge.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'm hoping that others can help guide or change my words some.

Please don't take any of my comments to denigrate using "tools" or "validation" or any of that.

Those are great things to use when you need to communicate with your pwBPD.

Using "tools" to help you "overfunction" or "overcommunicate" is still dysfunctional and unhealthy for all involved.

I hope that makes sense.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

So my wife and son got home as I was preparing everything. My buddy called to see if I was going to go. My wife got set off by him calling and completely disregulated. I kept my cool and said that I was going to pack the car and we would go in the morning. She kept trying to argue with me about how I planned the trip and lied to her once she shot down the idea earlier in the week. She got more and more upset and focused all of her energy on the “lie.” Now she’s asking “what am I supposed to do when they come for the couches tomorrow? Lift them myself? So you just continue to be the selfish piece of PLEASE READ that you are and go. But you’re not taking our son.” She tells me to stop being a coward and admit what I am. “Why couldn’t have said that your friend was available and you wanted to get together with him? Why can’t you just talk to me like an adult?”
I did a good job to keep calm and not reply to every question or say anything stupid. So I said, I’d like to talk about this like adults. That made things worse.
I might end up having to go alone. And worry about what she might do. Right now I feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place.
All her tantrums aside, my son and I still want to go. And since I want to help with the couches still I’m stuck.
Is there a path to a peaceful resolution?

I’m not concerned with how she sees me, so that doesn’t have anything to do with how I move forward. I’m not worried about her friends’ perceptions of me, that’s bound to be bad anyway, especially if we get divorced. I’m not worried about changing her narrative about how this all came to be.
But I would like to take this trip and be helpful with moving the couches. I’d like to have peace. I don’t know if all that is possible.

[RestlessWanderer]

Using "tools" to help you "overfunction" or "overcommunicate" is still dysfunctional and unhealthy for all involved.

FF can you expand on this?

[I Am Redeemed]

Can you contact the friends yourself and explain that since you have planned a camping trip (after all, they cancelled twice during times which you would have been available) that they may need to make arrangements to either pick it up at a time when you will be there or find someone else to help load the couches?

And who says you can't take your son if you want to? She does not have unilateral authority to decide whether he goes or not.

If you can handle her distorted perception of you, then take your son, go camping, and take steps to set boundaries when you come back (or during the trip) to protect yourself from verbal and perhaps physical abuse because she cannot regulate her emotions.

And if the couches sit there for another week if there is no one else to help, then so be it.

[formflier]

FF can you expand on this?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/everything-isnt-terrible/201910/are-you-overfunctioner

https://medium.com/personal-growth/in-your-relationships-with-other-people-youre-either-overfunctioning-or-underfunctioning-2221e761023e

https://www.willmeekphd.com/overfunctioning-underfunctioning/#:~:text=Classic%20characteristics%20of%20over%2Dfunctioning,won't%20happen%E2%80%9D)%2C


If you google "overfunctioning" in a relationship you will find a ton more.

If your wife chooses to function in a certain way...let's say she tells you to go on a trip, she is an adult and if you go on the trip and she misses you or wishes you were around to load a couch, clean a gutter or talk about flower arrangements...well she is an adult and can realize the contributed to the absence by telling you go to on a trip.

If she wanted to know details about when you were leaving a returning..she could ask.

You as the apparent overfunctioner believe that she would or should have asked..so you are going to provide them regardless.

There is another element that relates more to BPD as you are trying to say things to proactively "take away" her ammo for BPD...

Please believe your wife...go on the trip.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Update: I’m going alone. She talked my son into going with her to go toy shopping.

[formflier]

Why not make this an "and also" moment. 

Take them out for breakfast...toy shopping and then you and your son go off on the trip and your wife gets alone time.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I tried. Shes holding firm that she asked me to let her know if I was still planning on going. Since I didn’t respond she says that she planned something with our son. She also said that the friends are coming for the couch. I said I’d stay to help load. Her response was “I don’t want to fight. You go ahead and go. I’m not going to be the bad guy. I’ll just help him load it.”
She’s refusing my offer to help, and is now willing to risk injury (her back was severely injured in the accident and she shouldn’t do any heavy lifting at all)
The “and also” plan wouldn’t work because of where we live and the distance to everything else. Hours of driving.

I’ll read what you posted about over functioning later tonight

Thank you!

[formflier]

Good grief...

What happened to her request for alone time?

Please go camping and stop talking about this.  Don't ever discuss a couch again.  Don't discuss who said what, when and for how long about this incident.  Just stop and go camping.

What if you stay and those people cancel..again...and then again...and then again

The "tool" that you are learning from this particular incident is to walk away and proceed with your life.

Do you think you can use this tool in this particular incident?

We can certainly discuss coulda woulda shoulda with you as a teaching thing here...but I can't Imagine...I can't IMAGINE any benefit whatsoever from you ever discussing this particular incident in any way shape or form with your wife ever again.

pwBPD will take and incident that has "hooked" their partner and then "milk it" for all it's worth.  All the while it never occurs to the partner to leave the milking stand...

That's my goal for you.

Enjoy camping..clear your head.  Turn off phone.  Bring your wife and son a gift back.

Then we'll pick up "school" next week.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

FF thank you.
At times I’ve taken your honesty as missing what I’ve been asking for. But I appreciate the tough love behind it. I can see that you have been looking past this situation and urging me to just make the changes necessary. There will never be a good time if I’m waiting for my wife. The only way I can see change is by being the agent of change myself, no matter when it happens.
I know that communication based on text can easily been misinterpreted without physical or auditory queues. So I’ve tried hard to make sure that I didn’t add anything negative to what you or anyone else has said, even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear. The fact that you have stuck with this conversation means a lot to me. You’ve shown me great compassion and concern and I appreciate it a lot.
I’m smiling as I write this. I’m going camping with my buddy tomorrow. I’m not waiting for the couch. That ship has sailed. I’m not worrying about making my wife happy. Even after her tantrum earlier she’s been up and down a couple more times.
I’m putting on my mask. My wife has chosen her path and I’m choosing mine. I love my son and he loves me. The more I’m true to myself, the more I believe that he will see that (even if it takes a few years).

[formflier]

I was the beneficiary of several senior guys that stuck with me and hand held me through using my first "boundary"...ever with my wife.   In that situation they kinda did the reverse where I wanted to hurry and do it and they held me back, because they wanted me to be consistent and not "get rolled"...in other words the boundary had to hold.

They also warned me about the "extinction burst" that would come...oh...and it came, let me tell you.

But here is the thing...it happened EXACTLY how they said it would.  So I did exactly what we had practiced and my relationship with my pwBPD started getting better.

So...this is me "paying it forward".  

Enjoy camping and get your buddy to practice with you.

"Blah blah blah you abandoned me to go camping...blah blah"

you:  "Oh my..." pause  "Do you want to have fish for dinner or try that new chicken dish."

her:  "blah blah abandoned me, stole my broomstick and hid my spell book...and...and I can't believe you froze my wart of my nose while I was sleeping...that means you don't care..blah blah blah"

you:  (yep..actually practice with your buddy)  "Hey babe...this is important to talk about.  Let's make time on Tuesday at 6pm to understand each other better."  (hint..use whatever day is a couple days away)

her:  Make up your own funny story


you:  "I'm not at my best now and you concern deserves my best.  I'll be ready for Tuesday evening." (then exit)

Get the vibe?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Update: my wife “remembered” she had midterms so she let our son choose what he wanted to do. She lead him to choose camping with me.
What a painful waste of time to get to this  I’m happy he’s with me, and gets to play with some kids his age for the first time since March.

[formflier]

Good...my gut tells me that if you had cut the words used in discussion of this by 50% or 75%...that she would have "remembered" a lot earlier.

While you are camping, pay attention to the campfire.  What happens when you add fuel..when you "blow on it"...

Think about the analogy of not adding fuel to BPD..

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I think I used way more words on here than when I actually talked with her. But I do have a tendency to overthink things.

[formflier]

Well...how was camping?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

It was a good trip. My son was so excited to play with kids, the first kids his age he’s been around since March. It felt great to hang out with my buddy. It was nice to observe a healthy relationship between two stable individuals. It also made me feel sad to think how many of the situations I experience are so far from the way that couple interacted.
After we left the campsite we spent some time at their house. I felt like asking my buddy if his wife was going to give him a hard time for sitting and hanging out with me while she did some laundry. I thought better of it in the end.

My wife called me last night to chat. She was in a good mood and stayed that way through the call. When I called today to let her know that we had left later than we had planned and to not expect us until the evening, her tone had changed. She said that she had gone in to town and ran into some friends. Something in their conversation upset her and she had been crying. Then she started to talk about how she had called a neighbor about getting firewood for my mom since I hadn’t done it yet. She attributed that to me being lazy and too proud to ask for help (the reality is I have procrastinated and it hasn’t been on my mind). She added to this that she wasn’t going to stand for this kind of treatment from me anymore. She said that her friends tell her that she’s an idiot for staying with me for treating her the way that I do. She’s generally referring to her perception that I’m vindictive, cruel, and spiteful. Categorically untrue, of course.

This switching episode made the camping trip that much better and gratifying. I’m glad that I went and that my son had such a great time. When we got home I was irritated that I let her switching get to me. When I thought about it this way I didn’t feel down anymore. I realized I can’t let her switching affect me like I did.

[formflier]

I realized I can’t let her switching affect me like I did.

Because you aren't going to participate in those conversations anymore?

Here is the FF challenge.

I want you to think about the way this camping trip happened in your r/s

Then I want you to think about BPD tools.  Then write us a little about which tools you thought worked for you and you want to do more of and also a couple things you want to do less of.

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

It was a good trip. My son was so excited to play with kids, the first kids his age he’s been around since March. It felt great to hang out with my buddy. It was nice to observe a healthy relationship between two stable individuals. It also made me feel sad to think how many of the situations I experience are so far from the way that couple interacted.

Hey RW, I'm really glad to hear that you went in the end -- and that you and your son had a good time. There are probably lessons in this for all of us.

[RestlessWanderer]

FF, I was referring to letting the things she says affect my emotions. But I think you’re saying that by not participating in those conversations then I won’t be exposed to the emotional weapons she’s throwing.

I accept the FF challenge. I’m going to take a little time to think about this.

[formflier]

Good, you've got the gist of it.

If she said "Hey RestlessWanderer, I want you to sit down and listen as I explain to you all of your faults and how lucky you are that I allow you to continue to have meaning..."

How would you respond to that?

Better yet...how would you "feel" that someone you love wants to have that conversation with you?

What is the best thing you can do for you in that situation?

What is the best thing you can do for the woman you love in that situation?

Therefore, you should...

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I would say “thank you for blessing me with the opportunity to listen to your valuable and oh so accurate description of me and all that I am. Please tell me what I’m worth too. Without this I am lost”

I am nailing this 

[RestlessWanderer]

This is turning out to be harder than it should be.
I don’t want to take part in that conversation. This doesn’t deserve validation. And I don’t want to make things worse.

I will respond by saying “this isn’t a conversation of any value. We can talk about things that need to be discussed. I’ll go get us some drinks.”

[Cat Familiar]

How about “I’m not interested in discussing this. Let’s talk about X, because we need to come to a decision about that soon.”

Saying that the conversation isn’t of value, particularly if she wants to talk, is invalidating. And it’s likely to start an argument.

Taking a time out to get some drinks is a good idea 

[RestlessWanderer]

How about this one that happened this afternoon?

RWw says “I’m done cleaning the house. You want to live in filth, so I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not going to be like my mom. Everyone says I’m an idiot for being with someone that treats me the way you do. That’s why I’m not going outside to smoke anymore. I’m going to become the person that you are telling everyone that I am.”

As you can imagine, there was very little truth to what she said. Admittedly, I haven’t cleaned to the high standard that she puts when she is doing the cleaning. But, I have been doing a majority of the work for the last several months.

I didn’t respond to what she was saying here. But was that the best way to handle this?

[Cat Familiar]

I’m confused here. I thought you were living in the trailer on the property. If she’s living in the house, then why are you doing any cleaning? If she wants to live in a pigsty, then that’s not your problem.

[RestlessWanderer]

All of my belongings are in the other house. I’ve been spending more and more time in “her” house. I’ve talked about this some in some of my other threads. With all of our time spent at home due to COVID, maintaining that separation is easier said than done.

[formflier]

So...

For most adults, let's say I go over to Cat Familiar's house and we hang out.  FF hops up and does some cleaning. 

Now...it's doubtful that I clean as well as she does..but still, it's something.

CF says..."Wow FF, thanks so much.  Say...if you keep cleaning like that, I'll have more time to make your favorite dish..."

compared to

CF says..."Wow FF,...you idiot, you knocked over my witches broom with your feeble attempt at cleaning, if you don't shape up...I'm going to put YOU in the stew..."  Cue CF cackling and adjusting her pointy hat..

Now...for the FF pop quiz.  Which one of those shows someone that appreciates the help?

Which one of those is encouraging FF to go elsewhere?

Does this answer your question?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

FF, I love your analogies. Though this one made me laugh, it was a low hanging fruit.

After our son went to bed she handed me a little note asking if we could go to town tomorrow, “you know why. I just want to do it like a bandaid”

I guess it’s time to switch to the detaching board.