Dealing with verbal abuse, part 1000

[globalnomad]

I could do with some advice on how to better deal with verbal abuse - a problem I have struggled with for years. Let me give an example from a few days ago:

An electrical outlet in our kitchen suddenly started crackling and sparking. My wife asked me to deal with it. I called an electrician, who agreed to come early the next morning. Then my wife told me to cancel the electrician and do it myself to save money. I am not a really handy guy around the house. And I definitely don't mess around with electrical stuff. There are lots of things I'm really good at but this is not one of them. So that was basically my response. Sorry, it's beyond my ability and I don't think it's safe to do the job myself.

This sent her into a rage:

- Now we have to spend lots of money on an electrician because my husband is too incompetent to fix the problem himself
- A "real man" would be able to fix the problem without calling for help
- Any one of my ex boyfriends would have been able to do this job easily

And so on. At that point I walked away and politely removed myself. This is how I have been handling these type of episodes lately. I'm just not willing to stand around and be raged at. But it does not seem to resolve anything because with an issue like this, she will start again as soon as I return. I have two young children and just don't always have the option of leaving the apartment.

So I'm at a loss on how to deal with it. I have had little success with attempting validation, and not even sure if it's the appropriate tool in this type of situation. Walking away seems to trigger her even more. And this type of thing happens frequently enough that I feel like my disengaging is contributing to a kind of negative spiral in the relationship.

Is there a better way to handle incidents like this?

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[Cat Familiar]

Electrical stuff is not for amateurs. My ex burned down his house, thinking he knew more than he did.

I think you’re doing it right by leaving the conversation. No amount of explanation could suffice when a pwBPD is on the warpath and then you get into JADEing.

Cat, the daughter of an electrician

[once removed]

So I'm at a loss on how to deal with it. I have had little success with attempting validation, and not even sure if it's the appropriate tool in this type of situation. Walking away seems to trigger her even more. And this type of thing happens frequently enough that I feel like my disengaging is contributing to a kind of negative spiral in the relationship.

it may be contributing.

validation is probably not the right tool to use when someone is raging at you. its like ive always said, if i punched you in the face, the appropriate response isnt to ask me why i did that or tell me that you understood why i did. not that thats the gist of validation, it isnt at all, but trying to calm someone down who is at the point of no return just comes off as condescending and riles them up even more. validation is a tool best used globally: think more in terms of building a validating environment than trying to talk your wife out of being mad or worse.

likewise, a timeout when tempers are flared can be most appropriate, and totally helpful. but have you ever been overwhelmed with anger at someone you loved? if they walked out in the middle of it, its very likely youd feel even angrier. shut out, shut down, dismissed. and that might rile you up even more.

when you use a tool, you dont just pick up a hammer and throw it at a problem. you know which tool to use when, and how, youre familiar, practiced, and experienced with it. when it comes to the tools here, the context of your relationship is critical, and personalizing it is critical.

the greatest tool at your disposal, at all times, is listening with empathy. it can inform all of your next steps.

An electrical outlet in our kitchen suddenly started crackling and sparking. My wife asked me to deal with it. I called an electrician, who agreed to come early the next morning. Then my wife told me to cancel the electrician and do it myself to save money. I am not a really handy guy around the house. And I definitely don't mess around with electrical stuff. There are lots of things I'm really good at but this is not one of them. So that was basically my response. Sorry, it's beyond my ability and I don't think it's safe to do the job myself.

This sent her into a rage:

- Now we have to spend lots of money on an electrician because my husband is too incompetent to fix the problem himself
- A "real man" would be able to fix the problem without calling for help
- Any one of my ex boyfriends would have been able to do this job easily

think about this from both your perspective and hers.

what do you think this was really about?

[globalnomad]

the greatest tool at your disposal, at all times, is listening with empathy. it can inform all of your next steps.

think about this from both your perspective and hers.

what do you think this was really about?

Thanks once removed (and Cat for the earlier comment).

What do I think it was really about? There is a common theme I've identified. For whatever reason episodes like this make her feel unsafe. It's usually the same narrative. There's some problem she wants me to fix and it's not always possible for me to do that. So I'm "incompetent" and "not a real man."

I'm just not really sure how to deal with this. As you say, validation is not the right tool if she's raging and cursing at me. Walking away from an angry person can be invalidating. What does listening with empathy look like in a situation where you're being verbally abused and your boundaries have been crossed?

[start_again]

What does listening with empathy look like in a situation where you're being verbally abused and your boundaries have been crossed?

I would say empathy at this time is not relevant.    I have experience similar episodes and the best thing for me is to not engage and continue with hiring a professional for the professional job. 
Empathy might come later when I can heartfelt feel that my SO has an illness that is not about me.  And if I do better at accepting it I will do better at not responding inappropriately when her abusive words are flying.

[Cat Familiar]

It seems like she goes from 0 to 60 in a heartbeat. Perhaps you can begin to rebuild the foundation of your relationship with empathetic listening during the times when her motor is idling.

[globalnomad]

Thanks again Cat and start_again. Yes it seems I need to work on empathetic listening in the quieter times. I think what I struggle with most is letting go of the resentment over all the yelling and verbal abuse (plus physical at times in the past) -- and my inability to ever bring that up as a valid discussion point. It's hard to empathize when you don't ever really feel like you're being heard yourself. But I understand the reality is that I need to be the adult here and move first.

[Cat Familiar]

GN, I had great difficulty getting over my resentment, but it was poisoning my experience, perhaps as much as the behaviors I resented.

What I had to do was to give up hope of ever being able to discuss what irritated me, as there was no ability for my husband to listen without being triggered. And then, in his mind, I was at fault for “beating him up”.

Once we got to a point where I was no longer feeling resentful and he wasn’t feeling attacked, something interesting happened. I could briefly mention that I wasn’t happy/comfortable/OK with/approving of something and he could actually hear it and it was almost like having a relationship with a non. Even so, I have to be very careful to be brief, not add an emotional element to the conversation, and then quickly disengage from the topic when I sense he understands.

It’s still surprising.

Getting back to how I got over my resentment, well...I’ll have to admit that I’m not someone who easily forgives and forgets. I think this is because I have a very slow fuse and I have had a tendency to ignore when people bust boundaries, thinking that they’ll eventually figure out that they’re overstepping without me telling them that.

I realize that is not a functional pattern and it sets me up for cataloging offenses and becoming resentful. I’m attempting to correct that habit, which stemmed from wanting to avoid conflict. So I’m saying my piece earlier, before I get fed up, and am not as diplomatic.

I think so many of us who’ve found ourselves in relationships with pwBPD, are people pleasers, codependents, caretakers. There can be a certain arrogance there: “I can take it.” “I’m tough; I’ve got to protect this emotionally weak person.”

But when things get so one sided and we are on the giving end and they are on the taking, criticizing, complaining side, it’s easy to get worn out.

Another thing that helped me get over my resentment was to remember the positives in my relationship, and there are quite a number of those.

That said, if I were to enumerate the pluses in my first marriage to a much more difficult pwBPD/NPD, the math would be quite different.

[globalnomad]

GN, I had great difficulty getting over my resentment, but it was poisoning my experience, perhaps as much as the behaviors I resented.

What I had to do was to give up hope of ever being able to discuss what irritated me, as there was no ability for my husband to listen without being triggered. And then, in his mind, I was at fault for “beating him up”.

Once we got to a point where I was no longer feeling resentful and he wasn’t feeling attacked, something interesting happened. I could briefly mention that I wasn’t happy/comfortable/OK with/approving of something and he could actually hear it and it was almost like having a relationship with a non. Even so, I have to be very careful to be brief, not add an emotional element to the conversation, and then quickly disengage from the topic when I sense he understands.

Cat - This is very helpful. It's the place I want to get to. I still find myself wanting to bring things up from time to time - for her to hear me on how hurtful and damaging some of the things she says and does are. But there seems to be no way to bring this up without triggering more dysregulation. Paradoxically though, if I were better at letting go of the resentment what I want might become more possible. Food for thought...

[Cat Familiar]

Do it in therapy. Or write about it here. Or talk to your friends. Or go for a run and use all your  language. Or beat on a punching bag or mattress and say everything you need to express.

Just don’t try to tell you wife how you really feel about how she has treated you.

Not yet. Maybe later...

[start_again]

Just don’t try to tell you wife how you really feel about how she has treated you.

Not yet. Maybe later...

The risks over the rewards are too great for me to even consider telling my wife how I feel or the way I was treated.  Maybe someday but not now, best is for me to accept and move forward to better times and savor the moment when they do happen...

[globalnomad]

Thanks both. In a way it sometimes feels dishonest not to say anything -- and if I'm bottling something in my wife's spidey sense tells her. I guess the key for now is what Cat said -- to find other outlets such as therapy and venting here. Which I will continue to do from time to time 

[once removed]

What do I think it was really about? There is a common theme I've identified. For whatever reason episodes like this make her feel unsafe. It's usually the same narrative. There's some problem she wants me to fix and it's not always possible for me to do that. So I'm "incompetent" and "not a real man."

I'm just not really sure how to deal with this. As you say, validation is not the right tool if she's raging and cursing at me. Walking away from an angry person can be invalidating. What does listening with empathy look like in a situation where you're being verbally abused and your boundaries have been crossed?

listening with empathy is precisely what you did above. understanding (not necessarily agreeing with) the problem from her perspective. likely, you have it right, from a human nature perspective, and from a bpd perspective.

"youre incompetent" and "not a real man" are her ways of coping with it. unfortunately, theyre toxic. and it also sounds like theyre longstanding.

its easy for me to sit here and say that if i met a girl, and she told me "youre not a real man", id walk away from that sort of disrespect. it can feel like the right thing to do.

but that isnt where either of you are, or have been. it is behavior you have accepted for a long time, and its a dynamic that is long ingrained in your relationship, and it wont be resolved over night, or with a quick fix.

so walking out or telling her its unacceptable, or firing back, or anything like that, wont achieve anything.

it starts with open and honest communication (where you more than likely begin by doing more listening than speaking), more than likely a series of conversations, trust building over time, and yes, consequences and accountability. its unrealistic to expect that there wont be verbal abuse in the relationship, but reasonable limits, and accountability, rather than tacit acceptance, are vital.

thats the short, simple, easier said than done version.

what it would look like, ideally (not necessarily realistically), is something like this:

in a time of calm, you revisit the conversation.

you listen and ask questions. she tells you she doesnt mean to get so mad, but that she "gets that way" when she feels unsafe. you acknowledge the feeling and signal your understanding, give her the space to elaborate if she wants to. when shes said her piece (and ideally shes signaled an openness to yours), you state how you feel about the comments, that you feel that theyre unfair, how you feel they hurt the relationship, and you ask how the two of you can help each other going forward, discuss ways each of you can better communicate these things and deal with them when they come up, and ways to hold each other accountable if anyone gets out of line. the next time it happens, you both intuitively have the presence of mind to recognize when things are going off the rails, and it only goes to a 6 rather than 10. or it gets to a 10 and one or both of you have the presence of mind to take a constructive time out. eventually, she understands your "lines" and while she may come up to them from time to time, she for the most part wont cross them.

obviously, its incredibly unlikely that any of that will be the starting point. no, more than likely, after step one or two, youd get a series of blame and accusations, be inclined to argue back, and leave the conversation with more resentment than before.

think of my example as a long term goal, not the starting point. getting to that kind of place requires vulnerability and trust, built consistently over time. you do not get it over night, not even close. it requires a series of efforts, and it requires changing how you respond to conflict, consistently, over time. but it starts, in a time of calm, with honest and open communication, and typically with far more listening than speaking.

[start_again]

Complicated stuff to even consider...  I just think how hard it is to just stay grounded and not entertain things going off the rail.  Extremely hard for me state my feelings without a backlash of abuse and finger pointing at me.  Here is the paradox, I want to share my feelings with my soulmate and she uses my feelings as a way of attacking me - leaves me empty and resentful.   I agree over time, listening and choosing the right time to have a conversation – not when emotions are the driver.  This I can practice right now.  For my health and my psyche I cannot afford to have a conversation go to a ten.  For me discussing better ways of communicating and accountability is like making a deal with an intruder.   What is best for me right now is to lead by example – being a good listener is a good starting point right now.

[globalnomad]

its easy for me to sit here and say that if i met a girl, and she told me "youre not a real man", id walk away from that sort of disrespect. it can feel like the right thing to do.

but that isnt where either of you are, or have been. it is behavior you have accepted for a long time, and its a dynamic that is long ingrained in your relationship, and it wont be resolved over night, or with a quick fix.

so walking out or telling her its unacceptable, or firing back, or anything like that, wont achieve anything.

it starts with open and honest communication (where you more than likely begin by doing more listening than speaking), more than likely a series of conversations, trust building over time, and yes, consequences and accountability. its unrealistic to expect that there wont be verbal abuse in the relationship, but reasonable limits, and accountability, rather than tacit acceptance, are vital.

start_again - a belated thanks for this. I thought it was a very insightful comment. It's exactly as you put it -- the disrespectful language and so on is ingrained in the relationship and it's behavior that I have tolerated for a long time. That means overturning it will probably take a long time too. I think I have at times been trying to enforce the consequences and accountability part without putting enough work into the other important things you mention  --  the open and honest communication. So that's clearly something I need to work more on.

[amber8]

Oh, boy, oh boy. Listen, dealing with a loose cannon like that, this is not the time to be a doormat, empathizing, validating and reinforcing that behavior. Really? Have you allowed yourself to be that beaten down by her? It doesn't matter what kind of "disorder" they may have. That behavior reminds me of a child who never got disciplined. I would literally treat her like a child (well, we'll be a little more direct and less compassionate than we would with a child actually). I think you need to stand up to that and show her your strength. This is how I think you should have dealt with that episode. When she started up hurling insults at you like a deranged person, from a physical distance of at least 6 feet, point your finger in the direction of her face and pump project it towards her with an umph, and firmly state, not in a screaming tone, but loud and firm, "STAND DOWN and SHUT UP." Then point to the door, and firmly command, "Leave the room if you're going to act like that. I'm making the decision to hire a professional who is qualified to do that work. This is not your decision. Get out of here." Oh I bet that would shut her up quick. That Jezebel woman needs discipline.
I think too many people dance around and reinforce sh!tty abusive behavior from the disordered person in our life. Why on earth would you assuage and accommodate her treating you like that? That's not healthy and certainly not healthy for her to learn to do that more and more in the midst of her other issues. Put a stop to it. Honestly, you need to feel more confident. What I've said to you here probably won't be very popular, but I think you need to hear it because you were way waaaay off in your approach which clearly isn't working. She is losing respect more and more of you. Time to command respect and be done with the doormat approach.

Honestly, I think a lot of the advice on this forum just reinforces the behavior of the disordered person. You have the right to be confident and defend yourself. Edited to clarify: When I say 'defend' I don't mean that from the point of view of the ego. I mean it in an authoritative way as if you are 'teaching a child the way to go' type of discipline that she needs.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with you, amber8, that being a doormat is not helpful.

However I disagree with you about your concept of “standing up and showing strength.”

It may work for the moment, however it’s likely to backfire and further undermine the relationship.

And with volatile pwBPD, it could very well trigger a violent response.

When one is subjected to abuse or dysregulation, that is not the time to empathize and validate. Nor is it the time to command. What would be best would be to refuse to participate in the drama by saying something like, “I’m not interested in discussing this right now,” and offering a time in the future to do so.

Perhaps when the pwBPD calms down there can be a reasonable discussion, or perhaps not.

We can implement boundaries to protect ourselves. Commanding our dysfunctional partners to do or not do something further degrades the ability to work with them in positive ways. We cannot, through force, repair a childhood social learning deficit.

[RestlessWanderer]

GlobalNomad, I can relate to this. I often hear similar attacks on what my W defines as manhood. I often react similarly, walking away having no idea what to say thinking that what I want to say would only make things worse. Regarding validation, CatFamiliar and FormFlier have recently shed some light on what validation means relative to the behaviors of pw BPD. I’m working on implementing it into my mode of thinking. That being said, what follows is my attempt at applying that thinking, so I could still be a little off the mark.  In this example looking at what she is feeling could help you identify what might need validation. She may be scared by the threat of danger to people and property posed by the electrical issue. She may also feel that you aren’t protecting her, the family, and/or the home from this threat. For me, remembering that they are expressing a feeling rather than an opinion is the vital approach to identifying what might need validation. So I think our learning this skill and applying it is where the work lies. I put it this way because I’m still working on learning it. I’m trying to tap into that in real time in order to avoid being hurt by the words.

So, I think trying to validate the fear of the threat is ok. I also think validating the feeling of not being protected can be managed as well. Saying something like “woah, this electrical problem definitely needs to be addressed as soon as possible. And since even trained and licensed electricians can be hurt doing the job they are prepared for I don’t want to risk hurting myself or anyone else by attempting this. The last thing we want is someone unqualified trying to do this job and potentially making things worse.”

Again, this is my attempt at interpreting the lessons I’ve been given by Cat and FF. Admittedly, I’m barely starting to grasp it, so I could be off the mark here. The hardest part is learning to make this our natural reaction rather than the “normal” reaction of self defense or self preservation.

The other aspect is learning to define our boundaries and never wavering. I know how hard this is and I haven’t been good at this one at all. But I’m learning that while walking away after a boundary has been crossed may feel like we are enforcing our boundaries, they aren’t learning  that they crossed the line. So finding a way to calmly tell them that they have done something that we won’t tolerate then walking away is what I think the goal is. Again I could be off here as well. I am very green in exercising this area, but I think this is what I’m learning about effectively enforcing our boundaries.

Anyone with more experience and wisdom please add to or modify what I’ve posted.

Lastly, I can’t be critical of how you handled it because I definitely am barely learning to analyze my situations after the fact, let alone in real time.

[Cat Familiar]

Very good analysis, RestlessWanderer   

Since I’m so much of a Thinker and really have difficulty understanding people who are more on the Feeler spectrum, I’m often completely oblivious of their underlying emotions, and why they’re feeling that way.

I can look at my husband and see that he’s upset by his facial expression and voice tone, but then is he angry, frustrated, annoyed, irritable or what?

It takes me several steps to discern this, and often a few questions, which often I admit aren’t too skillful.

Someone else who is more fluid in the language of emotions would undoubtedly understand him much more quickly and be able to discern what some of the underlying issues are.

But he’s got me.    And over time, I am getting better at doing this.

What RestlessWanderer has provided here is a great analysis of how to look behind the presenting emotion (which often can be directed at us in hurtful ways) and validating the very real concerns behind it.

[amber8]

I agree with you, amber8, that being a doormat is not helpful.

However I disagree with you about your concept of “standing up and showing strength.”

It may work for the moment, however it’s likely to backfire and further undermine the relationship.

And with volatile pwBPD, it could very well trigger a violent response.

When one is subjected to abuse or dysregulation, that is not the time to empathize and validate. Nor is it the time to command. What would be best would be to refuse to participate in the drama by saying something like, “I’m not interested in discussing this right now,” and offering a time in the future to do so.

Perhaps when the pwBPD calms down there can be a reasonable discussion, or perhaps not.

We can implement boundaries to protect ourselves. Commanding our dysfunctional partners to do or not do something further degrades the ability to work with them in positive ways. We cannot, through force, repair a childhood social learning deficit.

Disordered people are with a certain kind of person because it works for them. Then they reinforce those qualities that work for them. You've got to realize they actually *are* conditioning you to continue to play the part for them. So all that thoughtful analysis, kind, compassionate, indirect responding, accommodating, is totally the wrong approach.
I honestly think this is a passive and unhealthy way to deal with the poor behavior of the disordered person to say “I’m not interested in discussing this right now,” and offering a time in the future to do so. I think it's healthier for all involved to state the truth, not be passive and dismissive to them. Deal with it head on. Heck out of respect for them and yourself. That passive dismissive response would actually cause more harm than good. It's better to directly and with clarity acknowledge the BS hurled at you. It's not really doing anyone favors to be dismissive. Truth is truth. It's them or us who can't handle it as long as we keep giving them that get-out-of-jail free card? I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree, Cat.

[Cat Familiar]

Again, I find much to agree with you about, amber8. I don’t think being passive, indirect, nor dismissive is a good approach in dealing with a partner with BPD.

However, there is nothing passive, indirect, nor dismissive in saying “I don’t want to talk about this right now, but I will talk to you later.”

Your confrontational approach may be working for you, but that means that you haven’t experienced a partner who acts out violently. Many of those here on this forum have. Some have been seriously injured and hospitalized.

We try and keep the emotional temperature down, and what you’re advocating could seriously turn up the heat.

Now, when you first meet a partner who has BPD, before you get emotionally involved with them, to be direct in the way you advocate could easily save you from ever getting into a relationship with them.

[Skip]

I think you need to stand up to that and show her your strength. This is how I think you should have dealt with that episode. When she started up hurling insults at you like a deranged person, from a physical distance of at least 6 feet, point your finger in the direction of her face and pump project it towards her with an umph, and firmly state, not in a screaming tone, but loud and firm, "STAND DOWN and SHUT UP." Then point to the door, and firmly command, "Leave the room if you're going to act like that. I'm making the decision to hire a professional who is qualified to do that work. This is not your decision. Get out of here.

This made me smile. Sounds a bit like Al Pacino in Scarface.  

I'm wondering if this is actually what she wants. By getting you to react in heightened emotions, she shifts her emotional frustration to you.

If this is the case, in essence, you would be rewarding bad behavior if you went all "Tony Montana" on her.

She is losing respect more and more of you. Time to command respect and be done with the doormat approach.

I think commanding respect is good advice. I think being a doormat would be bad advice (not seeing that suggested, though).

The question is, what really commands respect?

In a firefight when no matter what you do, the near term reaction will be the same. You need a reaction that you have confidence that she will respect once she chills out. You need a reaction that doesn't show she rattled you or that she transfered her frustration on to you.

Taking all the emotion out...

The plug is scary An electrician is expensive Her ex-boyfriend (or uncle, or the guy next door)might have fixed it. You don't like working with electricity.

What if you mine her outbreaks for legitimacy and also (separately) toxicity.

Respond to both - separately.

OK I'll cancel the electrician as you suggest, it is a lot of money, and I'll shut off the breaker for that plug (we'll be safe). Think about our options. I will too.

We can talk talk about this when we are cool - tomorrow, maybe?

She'll probably carry on... but let her burn herself out.

[Snowflake90]

Oh, boy, oh boy. Listen, dealing with a loose cannon like that, this is not the time to be a doormat, empathizing, validating and reinforcing that behavior. Really? Have you allowed yourself to be that beaten down by her? It doesn't matter what kind of "disorder" they may have. That behavior reminds me of a child who never got disciplined. I would literally treat her like a child (well, we'll be a little more direct and less compassionate than we would with a child actually). I think you need to stand up to that and show her your strength. This is how I think you should have dealt with that episode. When she started up hurling insults at you like a deranged person, from a physical distance of at least 6 feet, point your finger in the direction of her face and pump project it towards her with an umph, and firmly state, not in a screaming tone, but loud and firm, "STAND DOWN and SHUT UP." Then point to the door, and firmly command, "Leave the room if you're going to act like that. I'm making the decision to hire a professional who is qualified to do that work. This is not your decision. Get out of here." Oh I bet that would shut her up quick. That Jezebel woman needs discipline.
I think too many people dance around and reinforce sh!tty abusive behavior from the disordered person in our life. Why on earth would you assuage and accommodate her treating you like that? That's not healthy and certainly not healthy for her to learn to do that more and more in the midst of her other issues. Put a stop to it. Honestly, you need to feel more confident. What I've said to you here probably won't be very popular, but I think you need to hear it because you were way waaaay off in your approach which clearly isn't working. She is losing respect more and more of you. Time to command respect and be done with the doormat approach.

Honestly, I think a lot of the advice on this forum just reinforces the behavior of the disordered person. You have the right to be confident and defend yourself. Edited to clarify: When I say 'defend' I don't mean that from the point of view of the ego. I mean it in an authoritative way as if you are 'teaching a child the way to go' type of discipline that she needs.

Totally agreed. Well actually 90%. I believe you can do just that, but not in an overtly agressive manner. Like "I will not tolerate disrespect. Get your manners together, etc etc". Although I will concede I do yell at times. I believe leaving the room is too passive and the resentment will only build up until it explodes. I believe in assertive communication. No need to go down to their rant level, but you gotta be firm. Totally agree that being a doormat only reinforces this behaviour. Doesn't matter the person's condition. Maybe at that time they're blind to it, but when the rage is down, you are more than in your right to demand an apology and you could be surprised at how they can actually recognize their wrong behaviour.

[Cat Familiar]

"I will not tolerate disrespect. Get your manners together, etc etc". Although I will concede I do yell at times.

Has that approach worked for you? What would you do if your partner became increasingly violent when spoken to that way?

I believe leaving the room is too passive and the resentment will only build up until it explodes. I believe in assertive communication. No need to go down to their rant level, but you gotta be firm. Totally agree that being a doormat only reinforces this behaviour.

We are in agreement that being firm and assertive is important. However, when someone is in the middle of a rage episode, they are unlikely to be reasonable, and for that reason, deferring an important conversation is preferable. When they are not consumed with anger, they can listen and participate, using the thinking side of their brain, rather than the reactive side.

Doesn't matter the person's condition.

I guess you’ve never experienced the out of control violence that some of us have.

Maybe at that time they're blind to it, but when the rage is down, you are more than in your right to demand an apology and you could be surprised at how they can actually recognize their wrong behaviour.

Yes, often they will feel remorse for their behavior. Then they might make grand apologies and so starts another episode of the “honeymoon cycle.”

Will they remember this subsequently and make a lasting behavioral change? Some will. Some won’t.

What is important for us, the nons, is that we hold firm to our values and demonstrate the kindness and respect that we expect from them.

[globalnomad]

Hi all. I've been very busy at work and haven't looked at this site in over a week. It seems there has been a healthy discussion going on in here in the meantime!

To echo Cat's question, Amber have you ever tried this confrontational approach yourself and had success? I have already tried it with my wife, along with various other strategies that haven't worked as well as I'd like, but the aggressive approach always made things worse. Perhaps others have different stories to tell, but when a pwBPD is already in the red zone my experience is that a confrontational approach is more likely to just tip them into violence (verbal or otherwise).

I think we can all agree nobody wants to be a doormat. The question is the best way to get there.

What I've lately been experimenting with (with some success - at least compared to the other things I've tried) is something like this:

1. Wife gets frustrated about something I did or didn't do, starts yelling and escalates into insults:

2. Me: Become very still and quiet. Pause for 30 seconds. If it continues: "Stop making personal attacks. Let's discuss xx problem when things are calmer."

3. I then go and find something to do.

4. Still working on this part, but at a quieter time talk about how to resolve the problem, and ask her if she can phrase it in a less hostile manner next time.

[Snowflake90]

Has that approach worked for you? What would you do if your partner became increasingly violent when spoken to that way?

We are in agreement that being firm and assertive is important. However, when someone is in the middle of a rage episode, they are unlikely to be reasonable, and for that reason, deferring an important conversation is preferable. When they are not consumed with anger, they can listen and participate, using the thinking side of their brain, rather than the reactive side.

I guess you’ve never experienced the out of control violence that some of us have.

Yes, often they will feel remorse for their behavior. Then they might make grand apologies and so starts another episode of the “honeymoon cycle.”

Will they remember this subsequently and make a lasting behavioral change? Some will. Some won’t.

What is important for us, the nons, is that we hold firm to our values and demonstrate the kindness and respect that we expect from them.

You're correct, I haven't experienced out of control violence. I have experienced severe verbal abuse and agressive body language, but she never laid a hand on me. I think any kind of violence is completely untolerable. If it persists and you aren't safe with your partner, then in my opinion you should seriously consider leaving.
And about the cycle, I've noticed that, indeed. Grand apologies, honeymoon, then devaluing again. It's what really makes me indecisive about my relation ship. It's full of ups and downs and promises and a lot of anxiety in the in-between.

[Cat Familiar]

I think any kind of violence is completely untolerable. If it persists and you aren't safe with your partner, then in my opinion you should seriously consider leaving.

I agree. And that's what finally made me exit my relationship with my ex husband. Leaving is much easier said than done and violence doesn't just immediately present itself; it often takes years to develop after verbal abuse and threatening body language. And at that point, very often lives are so enmeshed, with children and finances, that leaving is not a simple matter. It is possible to repair a relationship where physical violence has occurred, but often it becomes a regular event.

And about the cycle, I've noticed that, indeed. Grand apologies, honeymoon, then devaluing again. It's what really makes me indecisive about my relation ship. It's full of ups and downs and promises and a lot of anxiety in the in-between.

One of the ways to avoid the honeymoon phase (though most would prefer to enjoy it, even when disappointment is the known result) is to objectively look at the overarching reality of your partner's pattern. If you don't buy into the grand promises and gestures, then you are less likely to be broadsided by the devaluation. And there are ways to not participate in the devaluation either.