Therapy for me and the Kids - Is it weird to be scared?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So I have been posting quite a lot lately and I appreciate all of the responses and all of your stories as reading them and the answer that are given sometimes help to soothe and heal in their own little therapeutic way. Gonna give a quick summary of past Therapy and failures.

 I have been talking to our pastor lately which I used to do all the time but have not in almost 2 years. He does offer Counseling and is a PHD and knows us and the issues that my wife deals with. I also when the wife was realizing there was an issue 2 years ago was seeing Couples counselor as well as individual session with a therapist but the wife ended up mad and we quit going. The kids also saw this same Family Therapist and liked her. She had to promise them that the things they shared would only be shared with me as they were at the time scared for their mother to find out these things.

After stopping Therapy a few months later the wife dysregulated a bunch again and I did the ultimatum thing and she got into a really good Psychologist. She even said I know there is something wrong, and after 2 visits said she really like this guy and that she is confident he can help. after three visits same attitude but he had asked me to accompany her to the next session. He asked me about things and I started giving a few examples of things that had happened including one of the more scary things involving scissors. To my surprise she had actually told him about this and told the truth about how she lied about it then admitte3dto it and so on. I was actually impressed. As I was speaking about my feeling and the kids feelings that they were sharing with me and the whole time also saying how much I loved and adored her and that I knew she loved me and the kids but that she had a hard time showing it sometimes and that it was easy for to take miscues on everything going on around her. . She started just crying and calling me a liar to which he immediately stepped in and asked her what is going on right now. She screamed he is attacking me you can hear him he is attacking me! He said stop crying and try to look at him. She did  and he said do you see him. She said yes. He said because I don't see someone attacking you I see a man who is showing you all kinds of compassion and is wanting to help you. This is not a man who is meaning any malice towards you. She was immediately better, it was so weird he could just command her to open her eyes and she was able to see more clearly? A couple of minutes later He asked a question about one of her behaviors and I answered it and she flew off the handle in a rage this time telling me I was the one who does this not her. Then started bringing other lies up that she throws at me once in a while  I snapped at her about lying because at the time I could not take her lying at all anymore. The therapist asked me to go ahead and leave and thanked me for coming. i could hear her wailing from the the waiting room for the next 20-25 minutes and then once she came out she was so upset that she could not speak for the entire 45 min drive home.
She went back him 2 more times on her own before we had a busy season come up where something was going on every weekend. He did not do evenings so Sat mornings were her time with him.
After missing about 6 weeks all due to our crazy summer schedule I asked if she had another appointment setup and she said no but that he had helped her a ton. (she was better and reading a bunch of wisemind books he had assigned to her) I asked her a week later and she said he is no longer seeing patients on Saturdays. So in her mind that meant she did not have to go. When I had made the ultimatum she agreed to go weekly or even 3x a week if that is what it took. Now she was like I can see him because he is folding up his practice and starting to retire. I did not believe a word of it and called myself and found that he is shortening his hours but not closing up, but he was no longer doing Saturdays. I told her that she probably needed to find a new T or PSY to talk to and she said no I think he helped me see enough to fix things. I let it slide a few more weeks. I asked her about it and then she would get mad that I was still insisting and things had been noticeably better as far as all out rages. But she still did all the passive aggressive things and said thing to the kids that she shouldn't when I was not around. I did not want to rock the boat so I let it roll and started lettings the little stuff go.

Fast Forward these last two years we have had some little tiffs over stupid stuff that should have never been a thing and I still noticed things and the relationships with my family still are not the same the W says she is over all of it and it is all in the past but if they dont want to move forward it is on them. But she still eye rolls and does body language that shows herself unfriendly when over there. The kids always ask me to go stay with Gma they used to go 2-3 times a week some weeks and that is still not back to normal and the kids dont want t oask their mom because they dont want to make her mad... I tell them that is not for them to worry about and sometimes when they ask she will say stupid stuff like ya thats fine I will just cancel my plans ( when she had no plans she is trying to control them or make them feel bad), so then if they change their minds because mom has plans now she has to come up with some thing fun to take them to do. We were looking to see the house so we painted new floors upgrades all the fun and I did alot of it myself. there were about 4-5 times during the upgrades that she would just crawl under my skin being passive aggressive about how I was doing something but then she would refuse to help or say she was to sick or tired or didnt know how. I remember thing during those times that if she did nto stop I was going to sell this house and then file so we could split the equity and move on. At the very end she raged at me one day here about 3 weeks back now. and it turned into a bad one and her then taking kids and sharing TMI with them . no talk between us from her side for about 3-4 days. Then her apogizing to me and wanting to have sex everyday.

The TMI sparked a cal from my family lettings me know it happened because the girls were talkign to them about it and then she told me that Wife does this sort of thing all the time with the girls and they tell my family about it because that is theri safe place. She said it usually happens when I am not around so she is hiding her behaviors form me.  Talk about feeling like an idiot who stuck my head in the sand and left it their for two years. Looking back I realize that most of the behaviors were still there and I even saw some of them sometimes I jsut wanted to have my family and hope that things were getting better.

So for the last three weeks I have been back on here, Posting and venting, Talking to my pastor while I wait to get in with the first T that we all saw a couplie of years back. I have been going back and reading my journal from back when all this stuff happened and the things that I wrote while in the throws of her constant dysregulation make me want to leave as these things have impacted our kids and I have been letting it happen. I have also opened up honest Dialogue with the kids and am find out that after I saw mom call me and D12 Liars the other day saying she never did something the week before that we all clearly saw and were involved in, that D12 told me when explaining that Dad it is OK mom does this all the time I don't let it bother me anymore. I now feel like I am headed towards the drain at the end of a relationship. Becasue I am also seeing how the last year and a half all of my  kids have changed so much they are all turning into introverts who would rather sit in their rooms by themselves than go play with Friends when they were all so outgoign and positive about everything just 18 months ago.

I finally get to go to the Therapist today. My wife does not know that I am going and strangely I feel afraid to tell her? But my D12 said she also wants to go so I plan to talk to T today about how to broach that with the Wife. D15 said she would go talk to someone. I just let son 10 know that if he wanted to talk I am here for him and that if he wanted to talk to someone else I would let him go talk to a counselor like he did two years ago.  I plan to start by getting D12 in since whe is asking and then I thin kD15 ill also want to tag along to show her sister support. once it is common knowledge in the home I am pretty sure S10 will say he wants to go as he used to ask about going and wanted to do it 2 years ago when we abruptly quit because mom did not like it.

I really hate that I am admitting to myself that I am afraid to tell my wife that I am going in for counseling again. I am also hating the fact that I feel scared for telling her that  D12 wants go . I am scared she is gogin to grill us and then accuse us of needing to go because she is so horrible and if we really feel that way we should just leave. This would in turn deter D12 from wanting to go and then probably deter the other two from wanting to go. I know this is self care for me and the kids , but the anxiety I have over letting her know it is happening is beyond my wildest belief as I am usually a straight out there kind of guy. In fact I am like that with everyone else in the world I am respected and looked up to at my work, among my friends and peers , at church. But I feel like I have to walk on egg shells around her and plan things so far in advance so I can prep things for her to be ok with it and have a blow up. I sometimes have to lead her around the preverbal mountain to make some idea look like it was her to begin with otherwise if I would have brought it up she would rage at me and the kids for something so stupid. i am thinking this may be what I have to do with Therapy as well is point out how the kids are or for now at least that D12 is so withdrawn and seems so unhappy that we might need to take her to talk to someone. and plant a seed and then keep watering it by pointing things out , and then tell her that D12 has actually asked about talking to someone and that I think we should pounce on that while she is asking. so that W can come around to thinking that D12 is going because W is concerned for her and that it is a good idea.

Fell like I am putting way too much into this to keep the peace.

[Serenitywithin]

So I have been posting quite a lot lately and I appreciate all of the responses and all of your stories as reading them and the answer that are given sometimes help to soothe and heal in their own little therapeutic way. Gonna give a quick summary of past Therapy and failures.

 I have been talking to our pastor lately which I used to do all the time but have not in almost 2 years. He does offer Counseling and is a PHD and knows us and the issues that my wife deals with. I also when the wife was realizing there was an issue 2 years ago was seeing Couples counselor as well as individual session with a therapist but the wife ended up mad and we quit going. The kids also saw this same Family Therapist and liked her. She had to promise them that the things they shared would only be shared with me as they were at the time scared for their mother to find out these things.

After stopping Therapy a few months later the wife dysregulated a bunch again and I did the ultimatum thing and she got into a really good Psychologist. She even said I know there is something wrong, and after 2 visits said she really like this guy and that she is confident he can help. after three visits same attitude but he had asked me to accompany her to the next session. He asked me about things and I started giving a few examples of things that had happened including one of the more scary things involving scissors. To my surprise she had actually told him about this and told the truth about how she lied about it then admitte3dto it and so on. I was actually impressed. As I was speaking about my feeling and the kids feelings that they were sharing with me and the whole time also saying how much I loved and adored her and that I knew she loved me and the kids but that she had a hard time showing it sometimes and that it was easy for to take miscues on everything going on around her. . She started just crying and calling me a liar to which he immediately stepped in and asked her what is going on right now. She screamed he is attacking me you can hear him he is attacking me! He said stop crying and try to look at him. She did  and he said do you see him. She said yes. He said because I don't see someone attacking you I see a man who is showing you all kinds of compassion and is wanting to help you. This is not a man who is meaning any malice towards you. She was immediately better, it was so weird he could just command her to open her eyes and she was able to see more clearly? A couple of minutes later He asked a question about one of her behaviors and I answered it and she flew off the handle in a rage this time telling me I was the one who does this not her. Then started bringing other lies up that she throws at me once in a while  I snapped at her about lying because at the time I could not take her lying at all anymore. The therapist asked me to go ahead and leave and thanked me for coming. i could hear her wailing from the the waiting room for the next 20-25 minutes and then once she came out she was so upset that she could not speak for the entire 45 min drive home.
She went back him 2 more times on her own before we had a busy season come up where something was going on every weekend. He did not do evenings so Sat mornings were her time with him.
After missing about 6 weeks all due to our crazy summer schedule I asked if she had another appointment setup and she said no but that he had helped her a ton. (she was better and reading a bunch of wisemind books he had assigned to her) I asked her a week later and she said he is no longer seeing patients on Saturdays. So in her mind that meant she did not have to go. When I had made the ultimatum she agreed to go weekly or even 3x a week if that is what it took. Now she was like I can see him because he is folding up his practice and starting to retire. I did not believe a word of it and called myself and found that he is shortening his hours but not closing up, but he was no longer doing Saturdays. I told her that she probably needed to find a new T or PSY to talk to and she said no I think he helped me see enough to fix things. I let it slide a few more weeks. I asked her about it and then she would get mad that I was still insisting and things had been noticeably better as far as all out rages. But she still did all the passive aggressive things and said thing to the kids that she shouldn't when I was not around. I did not want to rock the boat so I let it roll and started lettings the little stuff go.

Fast Forward these last two years we have had some little tiffs over stupid stuff that should have never been a thing and I still noticed things and the relationships with my family still are not the same the W says she is over all of it and it is all in the past but if they dont want to move forward it is on them. But she still eye rolls and does body language that shows herself unfriendly when over there. The kids always ask me to go stay with Gma they used to go 2-3 times a week some weeks and that is still not back to normal and the kids dont want t oask their mom because they dont want to make her mad... I tell them that is not for them to worry about and sometimes when they ask she will say stupid stuff like ya thats fine I will just cancel my plans ( when she had no plans she is trying to control them or make them feel bad), so then if they change their minds because mom has plans now she has to come up with some thing fun to take them to do. We were looking to see the house so we painted new floors upgrades all the fun and I did alot of it myself. there were about 4-5 times during the upgrades that she would just crawl under my skin being passive aggressive about how I was doing something but then she would refuse to help or say she was to sick or tired or didnt know how. I remember thing during those times that if she did nto stop I was going to sell this house and then file so we could split the equity and move on. At the very end she raged at me one day here about 3 weeks back now. and it turned into a bad one and her then taking kids and sharing TMI with them . no talk between us from her side for about 3-4 days. Then her apogizing to me and wanting to have sex everyday.

The TMI sparked a cal from my family lettings me know it happened because the girls were talkign to them about it and then she told me that Wife does this sort of thing all the time with the girls and they tell my family about it because that is theri safe place. She said it usually happens when I am not around so she is hiding her behaviors form me.  Talk about feeling like an idiot who stuck my head in the sand and left it their for two years. Looking back I realize that most of the behaviors were still there and I even saw some of them sometimes I jsut wanted to have my family and hope that things were getting better.

So for the last three weeks I have been back on here, Posting and venting, Talking to my pastor while I wait to get in with the first T that we all saw a couplie of years back. I have been going back and reading my journal from back when all this stuff happened and the things that I wrote while in the throws of her constant dysregulation make me want to leave as these things have impacted our kids and I have been letting it happen. I have also opened up honest Dialogue with the kids and am find out that after I saw mom call me and D12 Liars the other day saying she never did something the week before that we all clearly saw and were involved in, that D12 told me when explaining that Dad it is OK mom does this all the time I don't let it bother me anymore. I now feel like I am headed towards the drain at the end of a relationship. Becasue I am also seeing how the last year and a half all of my  kids have changed so much they are all turning into introverts who would rather sit in their rooms by themselves than go play with Friends when they were all so outgoign and positive about everything just 18 months ago.

I finally get to go to the Therapist today. My wife does not know that I am going and strangely I feel afraid to tell her? But my D12 said she also wants to go so I plan to talk to T today about how to broach that with the Wife. D15 said she would go talk to someone. I just let son 10 know that if he wanted to talk I am here for him and that if he wanted to talk to someone else I would let him go talk to a counselor like he did two years ago.  I plan to start by getting D12 in since whe is asking and then I thin kD15 ill also want to tag along to show her sister support. once it is common knowledge in the home I am pretty sure S10 will say he wants to go as he used to ask about going and wanted to do it 2 years ago when we abruptly quit because mom did not like it.

I really hate that I am admitting to myself that I am afraid to tell my wife that I am going in for counseling again. I am also hating the fact that I feel scared for telling her that  D12 wants go . I am scared she is gogin to grill us and then accuse us of needing to go because she is so horrible and if we really feel that way we should just leave. This would in turn deter D12 from wanting to go and then probably deter the other two from wanting to go. I know this is self care for me and the kids , but the anxiety I have over letting her know it is happening is beyond my wildest belief as I am usually a straight out there kind of guy. In fact I am like that with everyone else in the world I am respected and looked up to at my work, among my friends and peers , at church. But I feel like I have to walk on egg shells around her and plan things so far in advance so I can prep things for her to be ok with it and have a blow up. I sometimes have to lead her around the preverbal mountain to make some idea look like it was her to begin with otherwise if I would have brought it up she would rage at me and the kids for something so stupid. i am thinking this may be what I have to do with Therapy as well is point out how the kids are or for now at least that D12 is so withdrawn and seems so unhappy that we might need to take her to talk to someone. and plant a seed and then keep watering it by pointing things out , and then tell her that D12 has actually asked about talking to someone and that I think we should pounce on that while she is asking. so that W can come around to thinking that D12 is going because W is concerned for her and that it is a good idea.

Fell like I am putting way too much into this to keep the peace.

[Cat Familiar]

Sometimes you just have to let the chips fall where they may. You are spending too much mental energy trying to manage your wife. If she blows up, she blows up, and you can handle that.

But the most important issue is that your children feel like they need to talk to someone.

[Notwendy]

Therapy with someone with BPD is difficult because they tend to dysregulate when having to face their own feelings or behavior. One reason for their behavior is due to this difficulty- so they project it, deny it, or dysregulate to deal with it.

In your description of your wife's experience with the T- she seemed to like him at first, until the focus went on her. Even though you were declaring your love for her at the time, she wasn't processing, she was dysregulating.

Her fear of you and the kids going to therapy is that somehow it might come out that is has something to do with her.

This was a big taboo in our family- we were not to suggest that my mother was anything less than wonderful. We were not to mention anything she did or said that was not consistent with that image. It was the ultimate bad thing to do as it would send her into dysregulation.

But therapy can still be effective without a focus on your wife, but a focus on coping and being less co-dependent so her behaviors don't affect you as much and it can help the children do this as well. If you think of this as a form of self care for you and caring for them, it might be easier. Make this about you and them, not your wife. You are seeking therapy to have someone to help you process emotions. One wise person told me to only use the word "I" not "you". "you " is triggering. Say " I need to see a therapist, the kids want to see a therapist".

[Notwendy]

Also, I think it is understandable to be scared to tell your wife something she doesn't want to hear, due to the reaction you anticipate, but it might also help to understand the fear in the first place.


What makes you afraid of anger? It's a feeling like all the other ones. In addition, we always risk someone being unhappy with us if we do something they don't want us to do, say no, set a boundary.

When we avoid doing what we need to do for ourselves, due to this fear, we are actually being controlling. It might not seem this way, but it's self centered. We are controlling the other person's emotions because it's not comfortable for us when they get angry. So we are managing our own fears and discomfort by managing them.

To change this, we need to deal with our own fears. Their feelings are theirs, ours are ours.

The more we can self soothe and manage during their anger, the less fear. Of course if they become a danger to others and/or themselves, we need to have a protection plan, call 911, get away from the situation or avoid it all together. We should not put ourselves in danger. But if it's just an anger fit, we need to be controlling ourselves.

One reason I have this kind of fear is from being raised by a BPD parent. But what happened when I took this fear out of context into other relationships I became fearful of any anger, co-dependent and people pleasing.

These anger fits are very unpleasant,but it can help us to face our own feelings about them. We can't really change another person's feelings.

[Serenitywithin]

So the wife came in last night and said we are setting up a charging station for the phone down here and there will be no more phones in the room after 9:30 PM. Which we have talked about in the past but the girls use them for alarm clocks. Ergo we can buy them some alarm clocks but she was already wound up and called me a jerk for not being able to tell her what to write for her homework earlier in the day.
I replied with OK but we could talk about the rules we want to set with the girls when they are not in the room instead of you dictating to me what is gonna happen. We can talk about it later and set the rules.
Holy Crap did that start a nuclear reaction... She went off about how I called her a dictator and walked in the other room and apparently kicked something? I said hey quit throwing stuff around and she hollered Good TRY! I did not slam anything around I kicked something. She kept railing as she went up the stairs.
D12 was sitting right there and teared up a bit and said Dad, This is how she is all the time when your gone!.. I had just gotten back from a weekend trip to the family hunting cabin. Earlier in the day I was asking D15 if she wanted to youth hunt next weekend with her little brother for the youth season. D12 said I want to go to, so I figured they had a rough weekend.
I went upstairs a few minutes later to explain that I was just trying to tell her that we could have a discussion about it later and make a decision. She said we have talked about this. I said ya a year ago, she got mad and said well you called me a dictator. I said no I said dont dictate things to me lets have a conversation instead. I that word just means you were telling me what we were going to do I did not call you names. She was dysregulated at this point and decided to not listen at all. she said dont start this again. I said I am just finished.

So we have a nest Cam and she got that whole interaction with her talking to the baby and me coming up to explain myself to her and she was telling baby they think I cant record stuff for the laywer because I am stupid but I will show them .
I watched the camara clip a little later and she was up stairs telling the D3 how perfect she is and D3 says you not mad mommy she said I could never be mad at you baby you make mommy so happy. I just dont like being called a dictatorship and I hate when daddy calls me names. Totally inappropriate for the 3 yr old be hearing.. the funny thing is she taped it to show what kind of jerk I was being, when in the clip I was not. But she caught her emotional incest rant to D3 in the clip as well and does not see anything wrong with it?

So I guess she is wound up and ready for a divorce at this point. she is tired of everyone lying to her she says . Everyone in the house is afraid to speak to her so they don't tell her stuff to keep from getting railed at. She just does not get it. And all of the kids are tired of mom lying about stuff and telling them things that happened or were said did not. Or talking something they say and turning it into an attack on herself like if they say something she takes it as name calling like the dictate thing and then says she has been called a name.

It is so Bizzarre , But later she wanted me to commit to communicating more and to listen better. So I let her know that I am working on me and even saw a Therapist this past week. I am letting that sink in for a day or two before I tell her that The Daughters also want to go to counseling.

I am beginning to think there is no saving this . and everyone I know has been telling me to leave for a  few years, even clergy who said they dont condone divorce but that I need to do something for the kids and as of lately both of My older Daughters have said it may be needed.

Just Venting this morning.

[Notwendy]

instead of you dictating to me


That was what started the storm. This isn't a right /wrong idea or a walking on eggshells idea but a method to get you to start focusing more on you, not her. Do not use the word "you" to her. Form all your sentences from the "I" perspective.

I suspect that at the point you said this, you too were getting irritated and it came out in that sentence.

You need to become more aware of your own feelings and manage them before you speak. You yourself might need a time out. You can do that. She may have been wound up and called you a jerk, but I bet you were too.

So another response might have been " yes, we can talk about this, how about we do this when it's just the two of us?" but you need to be calm to be able to get to this point. If you are feeling irritated sometimes the best thing to do is say little at all, or say " OK, I need to think about this" which buys you a few moments.

Yes, what she said to the baby was not appropriate. You can't control that. You can control yourself and role model these calm responses and managing your own emotions for your children.

Whether or not you choose to divorce you will still be dealing with her in terms of the children so it's a good skill to practice.

It might appear that not giving her her garbage back is walking on eggshells but mainly it doesn't work. Since BPD involved projection and denial, it's more like p*issing into the wind. It's all going to come back at you, probably 10 fold. It just doesn't work. So saying things like "you dictating to me" is only going to result in her dysregulating more. Sometimes if a pwBPD is calmer they are able to receive the message but in the middle of her irritation, throwing more out is like fanning the flames.

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks Notwendy

When she called me a jerk I was not actually upset . In fact I did not even respond I just continued helping my daughter learn to cook hash browns on the griddle.

The second conversation about the phones  I may have been more aggravated because she was barking it at me. and I had been on a walk with D12 earlier where she was confiding things that happened to her and her sister over the weekend when I was not home. Which aggravated me further. My D12 told me while walking that Dad If you divorced her I would totally get it and not be mad. If someone treated me like she treats you I would have already left. I said I am glad you can recognize that it is not nice to act a certain way towards people. I told her I do love your mom and I hope she can get better. She replied I know you must love her because anyone else would have left a long time ago. This whole conversation was unprovoked by me and the fact that myD12 has these types of adult themed thoughts saddens me and makes me think that I have not protected them enough. So that was part of my aggravation. I told my daughter that I was knot sure if divorce would make things worse or better and she said it had to be better because her and D15 are old enough to tell the judge what goes on and that she would hope to only have to see her mom like every other weekend.
I cant hard believe that these words were coming out of my D12 mouth.  Sometimes I am surprised by how smart and perceptive kids' can be. Because my D15 Called me during her free hour in High School to ask if everythgin was OK because mom was being super nice this morning and was cleaning the house and ACTING super helpful... She said she only does this when she gets mad... 

[Notwendy]

The kids are perceptive.

It's interesting because divorce was brought up several times when I was growing up. When we were younger, we were scared, didn't understand it. By the time we were teens, we were more aware. I would not have blamed my father if he divorced. He didn't. But I also would not have wanted to be living with my mother.  I would have spoken out about that.

I can't say whether it would have been better if they split or not, as I only know my own experience. I think there are issues to manage either way but ultimately one has to make the best decision they can. Some people leave, some don't. It's different for everyone.

But either way, she is still their mother. My mother is still my mother. I had to do some work to learn how to better manage boundaries and manage the relationship. I also have to have some distance from her- emotionally. It's sad, but I can only do what I can handle and it may not be perfect but I do try to do the best I can. If you give your children the right to have boundaries and prepare them to be independent some day, that will help. Don't underestimate the value of your relationship with your children.

[formflier]

Is there a need or requirement to tell her about therapy? 

Why not start therapy for all that desire it...and then discuss with the therapist the best way to handle "revealing therapy"?

It's perfectly natural and understandable to be scared.  I have no doubt there is going to be an outsize reaction (at some point) to you guys doing this.

I suspect what the therapist will advise you is that YOUR reaction to her reaction is going to be the most important piece of all of this.  Perhaps I should say your CONSISTENT reaction.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Formflier

I thought about not telling her but she is already triggered because she think everyone in the house is lying to her about everything and she is Ranting about everyone making plans and not telling her about it. To This I literally told my Daughter she could stay at her Grandmas on last Friday night because she asked while mom was not home... and then told me she did not want to ask mom directly because she did not want to make her mad. I told W about the new plan as soon as she got home she wanted to change the nigth to which I agreed , but then after it was agreed she went ahead and dropped D12 off over there ranting about not wanting to be seen as the bad guy for it.

So I guess I could keep it from her but I did let out that I went to Therapy last week. I was letting that sink in for a couple of days before I tell her I also made D12 and maybe if she wants D15 appointments to go to therapy. She has no choice in the matter at this point I am doing what is best for the kids. I have an appointment with Lawyer tomorrow, Not to File but for a consultation and to get an idea of financials and custody options for the kids where things sit now with the kids at different ages as the two teenage Daughters will both speak up and say they don't want to live with mom if Divorce was necessary.  I am just trying to get a guage  on how everything might play out to make the best decision to go or stay for everyone involved.

I want to be done managing her emotions, but I also want to try to minimize her outbursts for the kids sake. So I am still worried about her reactions. I also dont want some rage event to make D12 or 15 or Son11 change their mind about going to therapy out of fear it will make her mad.

[formflier]

I thought about not telling her but she is already triggered because she think everyone in the house is lying to her about everything and she is Ranting about everyone making plans and not telling her about it. 


I want to be done managing her emotions, but I also want to try to minimize her outbursts for the kids sake. 

Do these statements seem contradictory to you?  Can you have both?

How exactly can you not manage her emotions, yet somehow "minimize" her outbursts for the kids sake?

If you can minimize them...why not stop them all together?  Wouldn't that better for the kids?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

If you can minimize them...why not stop them all together?  Wouldn't that better for the kids?



I don't think it is possible to do this. It's not possible to control another person's thoughts and feelings. What needs to be controlled is how we react to the outbursts. We need to be able to manage our own emotions better. Ironically it's weak emotional regulation skills on the part of both people that is a key to the patterns in these relationships. It's a huge eye opener to learn that two people match each other in certain ways to create this kind of relationship pattern. They may not have the same dysfunction, but share aspects of weaker boundaries and emotional regulation skills.

Actually, one reason we manage the other person's outbursts is because it's a way of managing our own uncomfortable feelings.

Sure, it's not pleasant to be around someone having an outburst, but whose feelings is this? Theirs.

One important aspect is to make sure these outbursts are not an immediate danger to oneself or others. If that is the case, I think a therapist needs to be consulted, there's the need for a safety plan. It makes sense to be fearful of someone being angry if this is a physically dangerous situation.

But an angry outburst in itself is not.

Also, if we manage someone's feelings for them, they don't gain self regulation skills. It's a two way street- they lean on you to manage their feelings, you manage theirs rather than managing yours.

You have the choice to leave your marriage but either way, the children will also have to manage being with their mother and learn how to not feel they have to manage her feelings. As you can see, they are already. They are afraid to ask her to stay at Grandma's.

I certainly understand your feelings. This was the situation for me growing up. We all walked on eggshells and managed BPD mom's feelings. It often backfired. Once she got a sense that we were not telling her things ( didn't matter if we did it out of fear), she was upset. But sometimes she gets upset out of the blue for no apparent reason at all. This is due to how she perceives things. We can't manage that for her and it's not our role to do so.

I also have a fear of people being angry at me and if they are, I feel overly responsible for it.  Over the years, if I asserted my own boundaries or choices, my mother did get angry and act out over it, often in hurtful ways. If my mother was upset, my father would get angry too and I didn't want to lose his approval. I became a people pleaser, allowed others to not treat me kindly, just to gain some approval. I have had to work on this for myself and it can get better. IMHO, this is the emotions that need to be worked on- yours, not someone else's so that their feelings don't have as much of an impact.

[formflier]

Also, if we manage someone's feelings for them, they don't gain self regulation skills. 

I've seen this in my relationship.  What used to go on for days now can blow through in an hour or so.

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks Guys .

i totally get what formflier and not wendy are saying about tryign to not manager her  feelings. Or trying to minimize the outburst for my discomfort. I honestly think they dont bother me as much as they used to but I dont want the children subjected to it.

After Speaking with the Therapist and my Pastor , I did get a consultation with a lawyer to look at options. After speaking at length with teh lawyer who also has a degree in PSYchology,  His recommendation was to go ahead and file with the court for either separation or divorce, and file for a psych eval of the wife along with a guardian ad litem for the kids. He was very concerned about getting the children out from the emotional abuse and the over shares , and the walking on eggshells around mom. He said maybe ordering a psych eval for mom and then knowing the kids are in counseling will help her realize that she does need help . He said then you can pause everything but get an order of custody drawn up with provisions that the more help and progress she makes the more contact with the kids.
He actually recommended filing for full custody with supervised visitation only for mom based on the Things that I showed and shared with him. He said then it will be on her to prove or make progress to get unsupervised visitation. I am havign a hard time with that recommendation as I feel like it would destroy her and I have no intent of destroying her I really just want  her to get help. So she can have a good relationship with her kids...
So I talked to my Pastor and my Therapist about this and they both agree with what has been gogin on that the kids may be better off with a situation like this and that then maybe mom will realize that to be with her kids she has to make some changes. My Pastor think it is important for me to remember I am not doing this to her, but her condition and the safety of the kids . I told him this morning as I am staring at the retainer agreement and crying that this makes it real. I dont have to file yet but signing a retainer makes it seem more real.
The lawyer also told me we can file in this manor and then say supervised visitation and any other visits as both parties agree. He said then as long as I have the order I do not have to keep  them away from her all the time , but can let them go on small excursions with her as they feel comfortable and let the youngest D3 see her more often through the transition period for both of their sakes with the hope that she will continue in some sort of treatment and make some progress.
I feel guilty even thinking of going through with signing the retainer agreement, but after I sign it I can take up to two months to make some sort of actual action or filing whether for separation or divorce.

Has anyone else felt this intense guilt over these things. It is very hard to swallow. I also see through this and my turnmoil right now a ligtht at the end of a tunnel and some possibility at joy and some peace? My emotions are all over the place.

[formflier]

One step at a time!

Can you get the retainer agreement done today?

Then maybe set a goal of getting the draft filings done next week?

Nobody else needs to know...it's just you getting prepared!

 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

i totally get what formflier and not wendy are saying about tryign to not manager her  feelings. Or trying to minimize the outburst for my discomfort. I honestly think they dont bother me as much as they used to but I dont want the children subjected to it.
 

Point of clarity:  How do you influence if the children are "subjected to it"?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks formFlier

I Signed the retainer about an hour ago. I also just got off the scheduling line to get my Daight12 first Counseling session on the books.

And as far as making sure their not subject to it, trying to keep it from happening, but I do know that like you said I am probably putting too much of my mental energy into it Since I cant really keep her from doing anything when the kids are here or not. SO I know it is futile to try it just seems like that has been my attitude for years and now I am not sure what my attitude should be about some things at this point. I think I am just worn down and tired of the cycles. I reacted poorly last night to one of her impossible situation cycles and used the sentence it is really hard to believe that after the last couple of days actions that this was not  on purpose. ,, I regretted the reaction immediately, and should have taken more time to respond but man aggravation can boil after 4 days of straight craziness. 

[formflier]

How can you affect whether or not she is with the kids...alone?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

My therapist and My laywer both have advised me with what is going on from the emotional abuse and Manipulation side of things, That when I decide to file for separation or divorce that I file for full custody with supervised visitation and file for a psych eval on the wife. Both were sympathetic towards her but both also said this is the best way to protect the kids and to get her some help, with a clause that if she get help she could get unsupervised visitation.
L also said we can put language that any additional visitations would just need to be approved by both parties. He said that way I don't have to pull her out of their lives completely, it just gives more option to protect them and then can still let her see them more regular than the order from the court to help motivate her to continue in some sort of therapy or program.

[formflier]

So...is it accurate to summarize that you believe your filing will get the court to limit the amount of emotional abuse/time your wife spends with your kids?

Is that accurate?

Best,

FF