Communication has ceased again Part 2

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347219.30

I would agree it will be/or is moot...if UBPDHelp gets a lawyer, files for divorce and gets court ordered support coming in.

I don’t see this as the only option. Perhaps the best one BUT it needs to be done in the timeframe that makes sense to/for me.

I hate being in this limbo state but I have not settled on an attorney or fully what I want/deserve in divorce. I understand much will be negotiated or litigated but I need a starting point. I take my time sorting through things. AND I am keenly mindful that I could get mired in inaction, but for now I don’t feel I’ve crossed that point. You may disagree.  That’s okay.

My understanding is she has interviewed a lawyer or perhaps 2, and I generally get a sense she is concerned the ones she has talked to are not "the type" for taking on a disordered person in divorce (that also happens to be an attorney).  So...she essentially has no legal protection.

So..while posting about a financial bill/issue on the divorce board it occurred to me that this issue would resolve itself much quicker through communication, rather than any sort of legal process.

To be clear, I wasn’t planning to sue him for the money. I simply wanted to know if withholding financial support should be documented and if so, the best way.

As it turns out...it doesn't appear he withheld any money at all.  It would appear he took more time to think things through (in his own way) and then deposited his paychecks and I hope/assume this bill has been paid.

I appreciate that perhaps he was considering if he should continue to support his family.

Curious, if he’d held 2 months or 6 months without discussing doing so — after having conversation about exactly what those funds were needed for — would that have constituted withholding funds? A month is not long enough?

And, curious how do you view his holding a months worth of pay as “he took more time to think things through (in his own way)” rather than an attempt to control me?

I’m NOT really asking, simply suggesting there are other perspectives.

Perhaps this will help UBPDHelp relax a bit and be more introspective.

UBPDHelp,

I'm concerned that it doesn't appear you are even willing to consider the possibility that you are trying to control your husband's emotions/dysregulations/impact on others.  

Especially when you explicitly state that you are doing this in order that he will be nicer (or less mean) to your child.    Perhaps you are making an argument that in that case your attempt at control is justified because of impact on your child (perhaps you can clarify).

Anyway...I hope you will take some 30K foot view advice.

Either put your effort into getting into T as soon as possible

or

Put you effort into getting a L hired and move forward on legal things as soon as possible.

Either one of those have great potential to lessen the impact of dysfuction on your life.

Best,

FF

I’m controlling my behavior to illicit a different reaction from him.

It’s not that I can’t see or understand what you’re saying, it’s that for this circumstance, I don’t agree.

There are a million situations that are controlled; not all of them are bad. Intent has a lot to do with it, IMO.

I am plenty introspective. I’ve presented my share of challenges, and to H. Life is not perfect. I’ve also said he’s not all bad, but I can say with certainty the level of control he exerts far surpasses any control I exert. You don’t have to believe me. You don’t. Doesn’t make it not so.

And I will still believe not all forms of control are the same. We can disagree on that as well.  

Thanks FF.

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[UBPDHelp]

I agree with Cat Familiar and will add my perspective in addition to wanting reduced tensions whichever way you go.

If you were trying to repair the relationship then sharing information would expected, you need to do your part ("it takes two") to mend the issues.

However, if you view the relationship as irreparably dysfunctional or even unhealthy then you would be very cautious about what you do share, as in Too Much Information (TMI).  Why?  Because of the risks that doing so could in some way sabotage yourself.

Thanks ForeverDad. Still working through the balance to share vs not share. Plenty of time to think it through as he’s not speaking to me.

I appreciate your advice and unique perspective (= from the other side)!

[formflier]

It’s not that I can’t see or understand what you’re saying, it’s that for this circumstance, I don’t agree.

 

For clarity's sake.  

So you don't agree that changing the way you relate to a child in front of your husband is an attempt to control his behavior?   (entirely possible I don't understand what you are disagreeing on)

If my understanding is incorrect, please guide me to understand this as you want it understood.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

For clarity's sake.  

So you don't agree that changing the way you relate to a child in front of your husband is an attempt to control his behavior?   (entirely possible I don't understand what you are disagreeing on)

If my understanding is incorrect, please guide me to understand this as you want it understood.

Best,

FF

I’m saying that I AM controlling MY behavior to get a desired reaction, or lack of reaction. I am trying to “control” my H from becoming laser focused on this child and determining they should become the recipient of his disordered attention.

What would you suggest?

I am saying my husband’s actions of:

a. Sending vile rage texts exhibiting substantial disordered thinking in an attempt to get me to acquiesce to whatever he is asking for OR
b. H throwing the remote at the big screen tv, shattering the screen in an attempt to control his control of the remote OR
c. H keeping a month’s worth of pay from the family when we have already discussed what it is needed for as an attempt to make me feel unstable and/or attempt to exchange money for intimacy

Are simply and wholly DIFFERENT.

The motives differ from protective to opposite of that, destructive and intentionally so. That is the distinction I am making. Not that there is no control. I’ve already said I don’t think there is a single action that ever happens that doesn’t control something. Help me think of one...I’m open to being wrong. I simply can’t think of one.

And so, FF, how would you suggest I change my controlling ways?

Hug my child in H’s presence, risk H withdrawing all affection to child and focusing on pointing out every perceived flaw in said child.  Defending child and escalating the situation?

What do you suggest?

Just an exercise for me to say I control things?  I never thought I didn’t have control.

Equating my control to his is, IMO, incomparable.

[formflier]

What would you suggest?

Stop try to change your life/values/actions..etc etc in order to get your husband to do something differently than you believe/fear/expect.

I'm not suggesting that you change you ways so that you only try to control others/your hubby when there is a good motive.

I'm not suggesting that you and your hubby try to control in similar or different fashions.

Let's be specific about the child situation. 

Your husband has been BPDish with your kids before and it's likely/probable he will be this way in the future. 

I think it's unlikely that your actions as a Mom will change that in either direction. 

Your husband will still be disordered he will still take things you and/or your children say dramatically out of context. 

Perhaps he will say you gave a child too much food in relation to what you gave him...will you change the way your feed your children to appease a disordered person.  Perhaps you should..why risk what your husband will do? 

Perhaps your husband will complain or get agitated when you congratulate a child on academics...will you begin to ignore that to appease a disordered person.  Perhaps you should...after all..the risk to your children is enormous.

The reality of the situation (as FF sees it) is that there is risk to your children (from various sources)...that's just life.

I believe that if you want your husband to mistreat your kids less or treat them better (however you wish to say it)...then the best thing you can do is be a good example.

https://youtu.be/aNUiOmRaI3o

Give them lots of hugs (in and out of his presence).  I would suggest that if you find yourself being a different Mom in the presence of others (including you hubby)...that should generally be avoid.

I do x because I value y.

I don't do (or do less of x) because I fear z will do a. 

Stick with the first one.

I would resist taking ownership of your husbands dysfunction.  My husband did A because I did B.

Most likely the real answer is...My husband did A because he is disordered..

Best,

FF

[empath]

I’m saying that I AM controlling MY behavior to get a desired reaction, or lack of reaction. I am trying to “control” my H from becoming laser focused on this child and determining they should become the recipient of his disordered attention.

UBPDHelp, this is totally understandable given your situation in which your husband has resorted to physically intimidating behaviors (abusive). You seem to be protecting your kids from being the target of his reactions. My h is jealous of all my kids' relationship with me, especially of the one who looks most like me and has much of my own interests. He recently took advantage of her vulnerabilities in order to make himself look good and created a very difficult situation in my relationship with her.

FF, UBPDHelp's husband does not seem amenable or desirous of change and bettering the relationship; he seems to be entrenched in his own world and physically reactive. It is pretty common for women in these types of situations to need to be the "safe" parent and not create a situation in which the child is more of a target, and it is a good strategy in their environments and in alignment with their values.

[UBPDHelp]

Stop try to change your life/values/actions..etc etc in order to get your husband to do something differently than you believe/fear/expect.

I'm not suggesting that you change you ways so that you only try to control others/your hubby when there is a good motive.

I'm not suggesting that you and your hubby try to control in similar or different fashions.

Let's be specific about the child situation. 

Your husband has been BPDish with your kids before and it's likely/probable he will be this way in the future. 

I think it's unlikely that your actions as a Mom will change that in either direction. 

Your husband will still be disordered he will still take things you and/or your children say dramatically out of context. 

Perhaps he will say you gave a child too much food in relation to what you gave him...will you change the way your feed your children to appease a disordered person.  Perhaps you should..why risk what your husband will do? 

Perhaps your husband will complain or get agitated when you congratulate a child on academics...will you begin to ignore that to appease a disordered person.  Perhaps you should...after all..the risk to your children is enormous.

The reality of the situation (as FF sees it) is that there is risk to your children (from various sources)...that's just life.

I believe that if you want your husband to mistreat your kids less or treat them better (however you wish to say it)...then the best thing you can do is be a good example.

https://youtu.be/aNUiOmRaI3o

Give them lots of hugs (in and out of his presence).  I would suggest that if you find yourself being a different Mom in the presence of others (including you hubby)...that should generally be avoid.

I do x because I value y.

I don't do (or do less of x) because I fear z will do a. 

Stick with the first one.

I would resist taking ownership of your husbands dysfunction.  My husband did A because I did B.

Most likely the real answer is...My husband did A because he is disordered..

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  I think this post veered way off.  I have taken a very long road to get where I am. I indeed picked up protective actions because of my H’s behavior/disorder.

But, for many months I have regained my sense of self and unwillingness to compromise my beliefs/feelings to placate H.  I have done what I choose — and sometimes I choose to not make waves. I’ve tried to bring him along but he is not interested and in many ways seeing his lack of true care for me or kids has become more and more evident as he attempts more control.  Or, next showers me with accolades. They both seem hollow.

I’ve watched him paint my job black in every way imaginable. It’s a lot of work — it’s a job. They pay fairly well, the give me benefits and those equal not being solely dependent on H, which I believe frightens him and he feels he’s lost control.

NONE of this I wish to discuss. I’ve settled where I’ve settled. I know what I know. I witness what I witness. I know I need to take steps forward. I AM afraid of taking too much time or always finding a reason to not take the next step, but I have what I think are reasonable goals and deadlines.

I am afraid of making a misstep. I’m just as afraid of not doing anything.

So, while I appreciate your points, I still believe there are times it’s the right decision.

But please know that 90-95% of what I do is no longer because of his potential reaction.  Some days more. I’m reasonable, he has been welcome to come along, but I’m not bending my values to him.

Mostly he chooses not to come. The outward outbursts are less. The subtle are more prevalent.  But they’re his to own.

And, I try to lead my children by example, something I have failed miserably at in regard to their dad.

Philanthropy, kindness, love, generosity, time have been abundant examples. I fear minimized by the destructive relationship between parents. I own that. I have to do my best to fix it.

I still don’t believe every action is altruistic, don’t even believe it’s possible, but will no longer compromise my beliefs.

Take care.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp, this is totally understandable given your situation in which your husband has resorted to physically intimidating behaviors (abusive). You seem to be protecting your kids from being the target of his reactions. My h is jealous of all my kids' relationship with me, especially of the one who looks most like me and has much of my own interests. He recently took advantage of her vulnerabilities in order to make himself look good and created a very difficult situation in my relationship with her.

FF, UBPDHelp's husband does not seem amenable or desirous of change and bettering the relationship; he seems to be entrenched in his own world and physically reactive. It is pretty common for women in these types of situations to need to be the "safe" parent and not create a situation in which the child is more of a target, and it is a good strategy in their environments and in alignment with their values.

Thank you empath for seeing where I’m coming from. And for understanding it’s not always perfect, but doesn’t make it the wrong decision.

And that both this choice and still holding my beliefs can exist at the same time.

I’m sorry for whatever happened with your D and your H.  Please share if you feel like you want to.   

[formflier]

So..I would invite you to find time to drink a couple beverages and read this thread again.

Please read Babyducks post again and your response. 

Do you believe you addressed the core of what she was saying?

Are you willing to consider the possibility there are things in that post you need to take onboard?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

So..I would invite you to find time to drink a couple beverages and read this thread again.

Please read Babyducks post again and your response.  

Do you believe you addressed the core of what she was saying?

Are you willing to consider the possibility there are things in that post you need to take onboard?

Best,

FF

I have read this thread a number of times. I have read ‘ducks replies and understand her perspective.

I am open to trying different things and holding boundaries.

Trying to find another way to communicate is frankly pointless.

I have been ignored any time I have tried to communicate with him for the last week. He will speak to others, just not me. He won’t eat with us. I’m not playing whatever game this is. I’m going to work, making dinner, doing laundry, running errands, everything I want to do when it makes sense to me to do it.

I took all the portable acs out and rehung the windows, something he normally does but just can’t bother and it’s cold in the kids rooms cuz it’s November. All attempts to what?  Idk.

I can state what I need, what I will do and what I won’t; he’s not listening. It’s not okay. But it is what it is. I am not wasting time or energy on it.

The ONLY text I got from him was today in a group with my BIL/SIL fancifully talking about the holidays. Baffling, except I believe his narcissistic self wants to appear like his life is wonderful.

Confused me and then I remembered when his dad left (was engaged to his secret gf of five years while still married to his mom), he actually begged his mom to go to a family wedding about 4 months later so the family wouldn’t know they were getting divorced. His dad left and we haven’t spoken to him in 25 years.

Difference, I’m not going to pretend like everything’s okay.

And, I would point out my initial ask was a boundary around my financial well being.

[formflier]

Trying to find another way to communicate is frankly pointless.

Wouldn't less exhaustion/more energy be worth it? 

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Wouldn't less exhaustion/more energy be worth it? 

Best,

FF

I feel like I’m going in circles.

For months I tried communicating other ways.

When he pushed for intimacy and I told him I needed time to think about it and would discuss after I did, he cut all communication.

What’s to discuss?

Do I think telling him that I don’t feel close to him after the despicable way he’s treated me is good communication?  Necessary, perhaps. Result worthy, nope.  Personally I don’t think it will help.

Do I tell him that I won’t consider an intimacy discussion until he agrees to marriage counseling or personal therapy?  Something he has made entirely clear he will NEVER do.

Have you ever read about giving an NPD an ultimatum?  I’ve lived it; it’s not pretty.

So, if my boundary includes counseling and he refuses. If my attempts at communication are ignored, wouldn’t the least exhausting thing be to stop trying?

Please understand...I deal with no less than 50 people a day at work. A couple are likely NPDs and mean as he!  I have coworkers who cry apparently b/c one is so mean. I deal with her too and she is a nasty Nancy, but I put up my boundary of not tolerating the communication, don’t JADE her and put it back in her lap. You know what?  She doesn’t push me anymore and just does her job.

I assure you I don’t have trouble communicating. I have trouble with a NPD/BPD H trying to control/manipulate me.

It’s not that I don’t see the value in improving communication skills; communication doesn’t fix this. It just doesn’t.

[formflier]

Do I think telling him that I don’t feel close to him after the despicable way he’s treated me is good communication?  Necessary, perhaps. Result worthy, nope.  Personally I don’t think it will help.

Do I tell him that I won’t consider an intimacy discussion until he agrees to marriage counseling or personal therapy?  Something he has made entirely clear he will NEVER do.

 

What do you have to loose by telling him these things, especially if you are already planning on divorce?

The only thing I would implore you NOT to do is draw a line in the sand and then "cave in" and not uphold what you have said.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

There’s a chance he will actually hear what you say, but will he change his behavior? His entire personality? He is who he is and has an extensive history of being him. Had you told him straight up about how you felt being treated abusively the first time or two it happened—maybe that would have made a difference.

That you want to tie a discussion about intimacy to his compliance with therapy, well, there might be some motivation there, but on the other hand, he might seek to get his needs met elsewhere.

One thing you will never know unless you try, is how he will respond to hearing your truth told plainly and directly. It could send him into a rage. Or he could be so blindsided that it actually gets through to him.

Whether or not you want to take the chance—weighing the possibilities for making things better or worse...

When I’d finally had enough with my ex husband, one night I simply laid it all on the line. I told him that his behavior over the years had killed any love I ever felt for him.

He truly was shocked.

I was too. I hadn’t known that I would speak so clearly and tell him exactly what had been on my mind.

Did it change anything? In him, well no, other than having a clearer idea why, when he attacked me a couple of weeks later, that I was truly done, and I would never again forgive and try to resume our relationship.

[formflier]

Hey Cat Familiar,  looking back are you "glad" (not the best word) that you said your truth to your first hubby? 

I suppose I should really ask how you think you would feel now if you had never said it...?

Given there was no real behavioral change, what value do you place upon this?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Cat Familiar,  looking back are you "glad" (not the best word) that you said your truth to your first hubby? 

It certainly was freeing to tell him exactly what I thought. So many times I attempted to communicate my feelings to him and next thing I knew the conversation was all about him and how I’d let him down. I’d end up apologizing and then an hour later, I’d think, “Wait a minute. We never discussed what I wanted to say to him. It turned into a recitation of all my faults. How did that happen?” It really was like coming out of an hypnotic trance.

It felt very freeing to be able to say exactly what I felt with total clarity. Doing that seemed to break the spell on me.

Ultimately I suppose it didn’t make any real difference. I inflicted a narcissistic wound and I became the bad guy in his mind. That would have happened regardless since I ended the relationship and began divorce proceedings.

But it did feel good to finally be able to tell him exactly what I thought about him.