Don't know how to stand up to my bpdMother

[wmm]

My mother wants my partner and me to go to her house for Christmas. There is currently a lockdown and you're only allowed to be inside with people from your immediate household (I don't live with her). The lockdown is supposed to end on December 21st, but there is a good chance that it could keep going over Christmas. My sister hasn't really been following the rules all along and she's already agreed to go. My mom keeps saying, "but your sister's going to come over." I don't know how to stand up to her without upsetting her more. She just sent me a text saying she thought I was using the pandemic to avoid Christmas because I didn't like it. It also angers me because my dad is at high risk and she doesn't seem to care about following the rules to keep him safe when it comes to things she wants to do.

When my mom and I fight we can go for long times without talking because instead of standing up to her I don't talk to her. I don't know what to say to calm things down without her getting mad at me and still standing up for myself and my principles.

Does anyone have some suggestions?

[formflier]

  I don't know how to stand up to her without upsetting her more. 

 I don't know what to say to calm things down without her getting mad at me and still standing up for myself and my principles.
 

Hey...can you tell me more about the importance of doing this without making her mad? 

My guess is she will miss you.  Are you ok with her expressing her emotions?

Best,

FF

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
well you know you don't make her upset

She chooses to get upset when you stand up for yourself.

I recommend Letting go of the Outcome.  Keep standing up for yourself, it gets easier with time.  Some things I do to soothe myself when I want to stand up for myself, but find it hard to stand up for myself, then doubt if I should have stood up for myself:  total binge on reality TV (yay!), give myself a hug and do a little dance because I stood up for myself KNOWING the other person would not like it (and would choose, they chose not me, to get angry), reward myself with a treat.

((wmm)

this is hard, but so important for you

b

[wmm]

Thanks for the feedback. I stood up to her but it did NOT go well. I ended up having to block her because she was sending so many mean messages. She said she didn't know why I was "such a rule follower" and that I had let everyone down among other things. The problem about blocking someone is I won't see any of the messages later so I won't know if I'll miss an apology from her, which could make it worse. I just don't want to be looking at hurtful messages all the time and wake up to them.

I just feel that it's important to follow the rules because we have a lot of cases and a lot of people are dying and I don't want to put other people at risk, especially my family

I don't know how to proceed and resolve this. I know there will always be some issue down the line and I'm proud of myself for standing up to her. I'm just really nervous about dealing with what's to come. Should I unblock her in case she tries to make amends? Otherwise what should I do?

[formflier]

Try this on for size.

How about giving it 24 or 48 a hours and then send her best wishes kind of communication when  you unblock her.

I don't think it's up to you to fix/resolve this.  Do you?

In you best wishes...don't raise the issue again.  Just wish her well.

Perhaps you can practice writing the message to us. 

What do you think?

Hey...I'm proud of you for being safe!  For standing up for what you believe.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother responds to boundaries by pushing against them. It may help to think of boundaries as being about you, not your mother. You can't control what she says or does, you can only control what you do.

Our own boundaries are a reflection of our value system. Yes, you care about your mother, but you also know it's important to take care of yourself- as you did over Thanksgiving, because you need rest, you need your job.

Ordinarily, we expect others who are close to us to naturally respect our boundaries. If a family member is tired, I would want them to rest because I care about them. But a person with BPD might not perceive the boundary the same way.

You have boundaries that you would be willing to stand up to your mother for, no matter how she reacts. Let's imagine she asked you to commit a crime. Since you are not a criminal, I am willing to bet you won't do it no matter what. She might be upset, take victim mode " I can't believe you won't rob a bank for me" but you know it's wrong to do that and you won't do it.

It's actually you that decides to uphold your boundary- is it more important to you to get rest or to help your mother? Is it more important to you to follow the Covid-19 restrictions or to break them to appease her? How you stand up for your decision depends on your commitment to them, not to her, because she's going to react how she reacts and you have no control over what she does.

IMHO, both the pwBPD and the people connected to them can have difficulty with emotional regulation. You give in when she's upset because it's hard to manage your own feelings when she is. The solution is to be able to manage your discomfort better, rather than try to influence hers.

You might need some support with this- a therapist, a close friend, someone who can help you deal with your own upset at her reaction.

Think about why you decided to not attend a large gathering? You don't want to take this risk, not for you and not for your parents. This is a decision based on self care and also concern for your parents. You need to stay focused on your own motives. They aren't meant to be hurful or malicious. They are done from a position of concern. How your mother perceives this does not change this. Your mother can also decide for herself whether or not she wants to take on the risk of a large gathering. Your part is to decide on what you will do.

[wmm]

Thank you for your advice. I don't know what to say to her other than 'I hope you're well." I don't know if I missed an apology from her. I have a lot of stress going on at work so I don't really want to deal with it. I wish there was a way to receive the messages I missed after unblocking her but there isn't. If I tell her I didn't get any of her messages because I blocked her she's going to get really mad. My brother and his girlfriend (who both live with her) messaged me and said they understood why I wouldn't come and supported. That felt good but I don't like that she is trying to control my relationships with my family members. What should I say once I unblock her?

[formflier]

Less is better. 

Your "I hope you are well" is ok (but it directly asks about her).

I would steer you towards "Happy Thanksgiving"...which doesn't imply as much of a question.

If you miss the apology, you miss it.

Best,

FF

[wmm]

I would but I'm Canadian and our Thanksgiving was in October

[wmm]

I don't know if I can reach out yet. I unblocked her and I got more mean messages from her. Should I try anyways or wait more?

[hugs2u]

Your mother's behavior towards you is really abusive.  I'm sorry you have to endure this mistreatment.  Maybe you could unblock her once a week when you're not dealing with a lot of work stress?  I don't know the answer, I am blessed in that my uNPD mother doesn't use social media, computers or a smart phone.  What a huge blessing, I cannot imagine the garbage she would spew if she had email or text capability! 

I often use the line "I'm sorry you feel that way."  

End of discussion.  I treat my uNPD family members like strangers at the bus stop when they are acting out.  I no longer engage or play a role in their drama filled lives.

Everyone has to make their own decisions about how they deal with the pandemic and lock down rules.  What level of risk your sister is okay with does not dictate how you should feel and behave, that is solely up to you and what you are comfortable with.  

Good luck!  I personally think you are doing the right thing to avoid the family gatherings and the right thing isn't always the easiest route to take.  I hope you have an abuse-free, quiet, peaceful, restful, joyful and relaxing holiday at home with your partner.  

[Notwendy]

IMHO, if you want to resume contact with her, I would not go back in time and rehash it. Just say "hi, how are you". Personally, I don't think backtracking turns out well. If she brings it up, be lighthearted about it. " I just wanted to say hello today". The less emotion and drama the better.

Resume contact when you are ready. If she sends more mean messages, well she does. The  main thing is to keep your cool and don't react with more drama. The goal here is to act from your own decision - not base it on her reaction and don't react to her comments or moods.

[wmm]

I unblocked my mom today in case she was trying to mend things with me so I could see it. It brought on so much anxiety that I quickly blocked her again.
I don't want to resume contact with my mom. I feel like I should for the sake of my family. My dad reached out to me and told me to contact my mother. I told him I wasn't going to let her bully me. He was ok with my decision but I don't know how long he will be. I told him I'd talk to her once she calmed down. If my parents were separated I would have cut her out of my life a long time ago. I want to be able to see the rest of my family and it's hard without seeing her. I'm afraid my family will be mad at me if I cut my mom out of my life and I'll lose contact with them. My parents also have been helping me pay off my student loan. This has made me financially dependent on them because I'm having a hard time financially right now because of the pandemic. I don't want her to have this control over me though. At this point I feel like I'd rather struggle financially than have to talk to her. I'm afraid my family won't pick up the phone if I call them on Christmas. I'm especially afraid that my younger sister will be mad at me. She is very close with my mom and often takes my mom's side when my mother gets mad at someone in the family. She also isn't following the social distancing rules.
My mother treated my sister differently than the rest of us. My mom was the middle child and was treated badly by her parents. My sister is the middle child and my Mom wanted to make sure my sister didn't have the same experience. I don't have a lot of friends. I don't want to feel isolated. Does anyone know how I can keep I'm contact with my family and have them respect my decision to not have my mother in my life?

[formflier]

Hey..I'm on your side, please don't experience this as criticism.

I would hope that your contact with your Mom does not depend on her "calmness" (that puts her in control).

I would hope and encourage you to reach out to her. 

How about this.  Unblock her, send her a short message and then block her again.  Check back in a few days.  (decide now how long...does 2 days seem right?)

Here is my big message..I want you in control and I want you to take control and be proactive. (details of how exactly that happens can be worked through).

OK...seriously, take a few deep inhales and exhales.  No...not those.  Really get it all out and really fill all the way up.

Maybe walk around some after that and I want you to pay attention to how you feel.  No..not I feel because of my Mom or because of...  stick with how you feel.

When you are ready...I'd love to hear about how you feel.

Best,

FF

[wmm]

If I block her again I won't see any message from her that she might send me. She's a gaslighter. She told me in a taker not a giver, that me but going to Christmas is the most cruel thing I've ever done to her, etc.. I don't want to hear any more of those cruel things.

[Methuen]

This from NotWendy: “The solution is to be able to manage your discomfort better, rather than try to influence hers.”

The first time I read something like this on one of my posts a long time ago, it stopped me in my tracks.  It is a pearl of wisdom that was a turning point for me.  

Instead of expending a lot of emotion and energy  on how to avoid her reaction (cs shes going to react regardless), move towards learning to tolerate your own distress of her reactions.  

Distress tolerance helps us be more resilient.  It’s a skill that we can learn, just like we can learn to run, cook, or drive a car.

The hardest part is accepting the shift in thinking, and letting go of being defensive, and maybe even victim mode.  Once the shift in thinking happens,  the distress tolerance can get easier.  Thats how it happened for me anyways. Clarity followed. It was as if the fog lifted.

You are making a rational decision about travel in a pandemic.  Shes reacting emotionally instead of rationally to your decision.  That’s the BPD.  Its to be expected.  

Are you familiar with distress tolerance?

Instead of worrying about missing an apology from your mom (my mom hasn’t apologized for anything in her life to my knowledge), keep a healthy line of communication open with your brother.  

Can they set up a FT, Skype Or Zoom so you can participate that way on Christmas day?  Offering a solution like this seems reasonable, and keeps things moving forward.

She also sounds afraid you are using the pandemic to avoid being with her.  This speaks to the BPD and sounds like a fear of abandonment.  Using a SET response here could help to calm things down and de-escalate.
 

[wmm]

My mom emailed me and sent me a nice song. I said I would talk to her tomorrow and she said she wanted to come to my place to talk next Monday in person. I don't want her at my place. I'm going to have a hard time standing up to her in person. She intimidates me. There's no lockdown where I live. I'm not sure what to say. I was thinking I could say let's talk on the phone and then take it from there. I don't want to give her the idea that everything is back to the way it was though and is just ok because for me it's not. Any advice?

[wmm]

I emailed her and said I wanted to talk to her on the phone tomorrow before seeing each other in person. She emailed me back saying no and that she wanted to talk in person. She also said "I don't understand why this is so hard for you." I feel like she put the blame back on me. This is my first time standing up to my mom like this and it's very stressful. I don't know how to make this stop and still stand my ground.

[Methuen]

I said I would talk to her tomorrow and she said she wanted to come to my place to talk next Monday in person.

This was a good response on your part.  She countered with a demand that puts her in control.  Could it be that as soon as she said this, your body and brain went into panic mode because you don't want her at your house?  Are you by any chance somewhat emotionally fearful of your mother?  I went through a really bad spell with my mom a while ago, and when she behaved like this, I felt like a deer in the headlights.  Frozen.  The trick is to manage our emotional reaction to our mother's words, so that we can continue to think clearly in the moment, and have a good response immediately, rather than after the said interaction is over.  Was saying you would talk to her tomorrow already an olive branch on your part perhaps?  She has some reason for wanting to come to you in person. It's totally OK to respond with "No mom, next Monday won't work for me, but I can phone you again tomorrow."  This offers a solution.  If she insists on meeting next Monday, use the broken record technique:  No mom,  next Monday won't work for me, but I can phone you again tomorrow." If she doesn't withdraw her demand, "I have to go now mom.  Bye."  This example keeps you in control, and holding your boundary. Keep the message short and simple.

I emailed her and said I wanted to talk to her on the phone tomorrow before seeing each other in person.

So the first part of your email response was good, but next time, I would suggest ending the sentence after "...phone tomorrow".  Adding the part "before seeing each other in person" kind of sets up opportunity for conflict, because it gives her something to argue with, or in this case, gave her something to counter with (a demand to come to your house).  In my experience, the simplest message is best, because it gives her little or no target.  And never explain anything.  That gets into JADEing, which tends to escalate.

If you don't feel emotionally safe seeing her at all, you could still call her tomorrow as you already said you would, and then when she says she wants to come to your house next Monday, just tell her you already had plans.  Then arrange your Monday to do errands or be "out and about" so that if she comes anyway, you are not home. On the other hand, perhaps the worst case scenario won't happen, and the phone call will be cordial?  Maybe start the conversation by repeating that you enjoyed the song.  Compliment her by telling her she picked a nice one!  That may disarm her, and perhaps the rest of the conversation will go better than expected.  Keep it on the short and sweet side, before anything has time to go sideways.    

If and when you decide you are ready to meet with her face to face, it can be helpful to meet in a public place for coffee or lunch.  BPD's generally behave better when there are other people around.  You could even arrange to have a friend there with you.  This would be a better option than her coming to your home, where you are trapped alone with her.  

[Notwendy]

I am glad to see that the idea of being able to manage your own discomfort has helped others, as it has helped me too.

This is something that can take some personal work and practice. Please don't get discouraged if it takes some time. It's not easy to feel we have disappointed our parents or they are upset with us. But we can learn to manage our own discomfort and stay calm and not reactive with them- which can add fuel to the drama.

Also keep in mind, your mother is accustomed to getting her way- and when you decide to stand up for yourself, her first response is to keep doing what she's used to doing- that is to push the boundary and get what she wants. While you are trying different relationship "tools"- she will still use the ones she has that work for her.

IMHO, I think a pwBPD tends to see things from victim perspective. This is from my own interactions with my BPD mother. When someone sees things from victim perspective, it's not her fault. " I don't understand why this is so hard for you" ---ie " this isn't about me, it's you"

We can not change how someone else is thinking or perceiving things. Just because she doesn't see her part in it doesn't make it true, but trying to change her mind, express your point of view- is not going to get you the results you wish for. For me, with my mother, I just don't go there with her. It's likely to lead to a disregulation. My mother copes with these things by projection and disregulation.

My mother also does the " we are all good now" without looking back at what may have happened. There isn't the kind of resolution from talking things over. I don't know your mother, but I think sending the song to you is a form of " we are all good now".

IMHO, talking about what happened, trying to get your mother to understand your perspective is not likely to lead to the kind of understanding you are seeking by talking to her, either on the phone or in person. This is probably a frequent pattern of " we are all good now".

My own boundaries with my mother are more on the emotional level. I don't discuss my own feelings with her, or backtrack to try to resolve conflicts. We can meet in person, and talk about other things like a book we read, or something the kids did like did their soccer team win- topics that don't have a lot of emotion attached to them. Again, it comes down to me- I don't want to get emotional with her, it's not something I want to get into with her.

Your mother has already pushed one of your boundaries- your wish to not meet in person until you have spoken on the phone. However, I question the usefulness of that phone conversation in terms of achieving what you want to achieve. I like the idea of meeting in a public place. She's less likely to escalate in public. Maybe consider inviting her for coffee or lunch and keeping it light and not emotional. 

[wmm]

I am terrified of my mother. I have PTSD from her emotional and psychocological abuse.

She sent me another email after saying all her friends and family say she's very emotionally intelligent (not true) but that somehow she doesn't get feedback from me. She also said it was like at the beginning of the pandemic when "I had prepared a very lovely lunch for you and you cancelled saying you would only feel comfortable going to a local Starbucks." I cancelled because I was sick and she hadn't prepared anything because it was the day before. I think I have tried the Starbucks thing before though. I DO NOT want her in my home. I feel like that'll be giving in too much and it would be really hard for me to tell her to leave (I think she knows this). She's gaslighting me. I would preferably have nothing to do with her.

[Notwendy]

I understand. Growing up, we kids were afraid of my mother. I was also afraid of my father's disapproval. If my mother was not happy with me, she'd enlist my father to side with her.

Once, a stranger yelled at me in a parking lot. I was shaken up for several minutes, couldn't find my car keys, acted confused. I recognized the reaction- yes, PTSD- and - and angry people can elicit this.

The good thing about this is - this is your emotional reaction. Yes, she may trigger it but we can learn to control our reactions. It's a lot more effective than trying to walk on eggshells and appease people to try to avoid the anger. It can take some work  but it's worth doing.

Your mom is doing what has worked for her. My mother does this too. "all my friends say this about me- so it's your fault. " bringing in others to triangulate. So her friends may think she's great, or that your mom has a high EQ or whatever - your reality is yours, not theirs, and you can still think what you want to think.

Self care is important. If seeing your mother is too tough on you, then don't do it. For me, it was easier if I visited with someone else ( another family member) and was not alone with her, and also for short visits.

[wmm]

I just talked to her on the phone. She was crying a lot and playing the victim. I tried to do the Grey Rock method https://www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock and be as emotionless as possible.  I'm glad I did it. I want this to just end but she's already texting me upset. This is so tiring.

[formflier]

  I feel like she put the blame back on me. This is my first time standing up to my mom like this and it's very stressful. I don't know how to make this stop and still stand my ground.

You get it to stop by holding your boundary.

"Mom, right now I'm offering to talk on the phone.  I'm not willing to discuss meeting in person."  (basically...you need to own your boundary)

Hang in there, you are doing the right thing.

Best,

FF

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
You are going through a lot and I can hear it in your posts.  Your mom is fighting hard to keep you in your place, and you are fighting for your life.  I get it.  Your life is You get to make decisions for yourself, free of guilt, free of gaslighting, free of emotional manipulation. 

I'm sorry your sister and dad take your Mom's side, that is very hard too and is a form of secondary abuse.  "Let's all gang up on the one asserting their boundaries!" 

Just know you are right in deciding for yourself your own preferences. Your mom can try but won't succeed at morphing you into her.

This will get better, don't worry.  You are doing great.
 

b

[Methuen]

"All of the above".

Just chiming in my support again.  You are doing the right thing by holding your boundary.  Stay your course.

[wmm]

Thank you all for your support.
My dad texted me last night just before I went to sleep telling me to call my mom this morning to figure things out. I told him I couldn't because I had to work. He told me to talk to her on Friday (I don't work on Fridays) and I said I would. He then said he didn't want to get involved and I pointed out that I never asked him to. He said my mother felt like she wasn't loved and she was worried it was going to turn out like her relationship with her mother (they had a bad relationship and my grandmother was cold).

I don't want to talk to her. Being able to block her has helped me get through the week. I don't know what to say to her. Our last conversation did not go well last Monday. Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could/should say to her? I'm tired of her bullying me and her saying cruel things to me and the not apologizing. As of our last conversation she still hasn't accepted that I'm not coming to xmas even though I told her it was about covid and that I would like to see everyone if it weren't for covid. I want to tell her that I don't want her to say mean things to me anymore and I won't stand for it. I also want her to respect my decision. I want an apology. Is that too much to expect? Does anyone know how I can word things to lower the chance of upsetting her?

[formflier]

So...we are talking about a phone call tomorrow...right?


What is it that you Dad expects?  A phone call or are there specific things you have agreed to discuss or solve with Mom?

Note:  For now..let's focus on this phone call, later let's talk about your other relationships and people being involved.

If you had a choice between her bullying behavior going down or getting an apology, which would you choose?  For the sake of this argument, you don't get to have both.

1.  Yes you should call tomorrow.  (If I have details right)


For the rest I'll wait on answers.

Best,

FF

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
I don't have any good advice on wording to make your mom hear you.  I understand this is extremely difficult for you.

Just wanted to support your decision of "no contact", you get to make that regardless of what Mom or Dad want or regardless of how much they plead, and you get to also choose when to disengage, for your own safety (even if it's only of mind).

I will mention that this was my Mom before I went NC with her for 7 years.  She enlisted my Dad to tell me to call her.  She gave me guilt trips if I didn't want to see her on holidays.  She basically used me as just an extension of herself, I existed to please her, not as a separate person with a mind, heart and feelings of my own.

take some deep breaths, and i invite you to see your options
sorry this is so hard
 

b

[formflier]

Being able to block her has helped me get through the week. I don't know what to say to her.

I am a big fan of the use of selective engagement.  You seem to be doing well blocking for  period of time and then picking a time to engage. 

Guess what...if tomorrow's call doesn't go well, you can block again and recuperate.  Even better...if it does go well, you can block and celebrate for a while...without any communication to undo your celebration.

  As of our last conversation she still hasn't accepted that I'm not coming to xmas even though I told her it was about covid and that I would like to see everyone if it weren't for covid.

Let's be frank here.  Is it likely she will accept this decision?  What can you look to in your past that indicates this is a likely outcome?  (I'm curious..there may be reasons, I'm still getting to know your story)

For now...let's assume she won't accept it.  Let's also assume your mind is made up.

For tomorrow's phone call.

Don't bring up Christmas.  I want you to be proactive and have a couple topics to bring up.

1.  Movies/shows/books/youtube.  Do you normally talk about them.  Launch into one and tell your Mom how great it is and that you thought she might like to watch/read it as well and that you would like to hear her reaction.  (think about this...it's a deliberate "bid" for her attention and letting her know that you would like to connect with her)

2.  We both know she will bring up your travel plans (or however she describes it)...so go ahead and work through those emotions now.  During the phone call

blah blah blah so are you coming from Christmas..blah blah blah

"Oh that..no new information there Mom." be obvious about taking a breath and then go to next item on your agenda (let's say it something about cooking, maybe a new dish you want to try)

let's assume she is like many other pwBPD and she is not going to let it go

"blah blah you aren't going to be here blah blah"

"Mom, there is nothing more to say about that "(do not say travel or Christmas) quick breath "I do hope we have a lot to say about that prime rib roast I was talking about" (for real..we made one at Thanksgiving, very simple...yet mouth watering)

If she get's abusive, bully, bosses and won't leave closed subjects alone...

"Mom, I'm not discussing this.  We can talk about something else or end the phone call.  What do you prefer?" 

If she talks about something else...enjoy the victory.

If she hangs on.  Hangup and block.  Focus on self care. 

Do you follow the flow of how it can go with YOU being in charge of the agenda and YOU giving her choices of how to interact in a healthy way and YOU deciding to pull away if your Mom chooses a bad path.

You've got this!

Best,

FF