Don't know how to stand up to my bpdMother

[wmm]

Thanks for all the good advice. On top of Christmas, she wants to talk about our relationship. She wants to be closer (I don't).

[wmm]

Thanks for all the good advice. On top of xmas, she wants to talk about our relationship because she wants to be closer. I don't want to be closer. I want the opposite.

[formflier]

Be proactive...pick something harmless (like a show/book/youtuber) and make a "bid" for closeness "over there".

For the rest, don't discuss it.

So...if she wants to get into relationship issues with you tomorrow (general or specific), go through the same thing as before.

"Mom..I'm not going to talk about that right now.  I am able to talk about (x)"

Then proceed.

Listen..I'm far too well aware of the complicated and mixed emotions with this "how could you" thing sitting on top. 

Own your decisions...own your life and your relationships.  That means building some up and limiting others.  My goal is for you to decide this and do this for a period of months.

My guess is after that period your outlook will begin to shift.  From there we can talk more about long term.

You've got tomorrow.  Focus there.  1 phone call...you can do it.

Best,

FF

[wmm]

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I think that my mom wants to talk about our relationship. She wants to be closer (and I don't). I don't know what to say to her without really upsetting her or committing to something I don't want.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I believe she wants the relationship, but doesn't have the emotional ability to sustain the kind of relationship she wants. Neither does my mother. But I do think as mothers, they see the relationship other mothers have with their children and do want it.

It might help to consider what "closeness" means to your mother. It might mean something different than you think it is. For my mother, I think it means we need to validate her and do things for her but from my point of view, that isn't emotional closeness.

One thing you can do if you meet up with her is mainly listen. She might push you to agree to something. Practice neutral statements such as " I will think about this"  rather than a yes or no. You can validate her feelings rather than commit to something or agree with something. If she says " it's all your fault" you can say " I understand that you feel this way". There is information about validating and listening on this board.

Only disclose what you are comfortable with. Don't JADE or try to get her to understand you. Likely she can't.  But listening and validating - not validating the invalid but her feelings about it- might bring about some peace in the moment.

[formflier]

  I don't know what to say to her without really upsetting her or committing to something I don't want.

I'll take the easy thing first.

She asks you to commit to something.  Ask a  clarifying question or two.  Perhaps reflect back to her and ask her for confirmation that you have the request right.

Then let her know you will give it some thought.  (if you are religious, perhaps say "prayer and thought")

Now for the hard one.

Many times you have likely been blamed for your Mom being upset.  Most likely your Mom's emotions are on edge and you conveniently provided a quick excuse for blame and rage. 

So...I'm sad to say that she will likely keep getting upset.  I hope you can "depersonalize" that and I also hope that you quickly end phone calls where this happens.

Your Mom can want to talk about the relationship all she wants.  You control what YOU talk about.  Give her the option..then hold you boundary.  It may take several phone calls for her to get the message.

Note:  I'm not aware of any way to do this where she is "happy" about it.   

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

Love the dialogue plan FF has laid out.

The first time sticking to your own boundary is crazy hard.  The second and third was about the same for me.  After that, it started to get - well, not exactly easier, but maybe easier to follow through.  It's kind of like when a kid is 4 or 5 years old, and climbs their first tall tree.  It's really hard and scary, but in their head they know it's something they gotta do. But by the 3rd or 4th time going up that tree, they get faster and it feels easier, even though it's still the same tree.

You've got this wmm.  Print off FF's script as a guide (more of a security blanket to give you confidence maybe), and keep it by the phone.  And remember to breathe during the phone call. Maybe a sticky note reminder in front of you that says "breathe". 

Books, the weather, house chores or whatever neutral subject you can think of.  Be determined not to get drawn into her emotional drama.  When you know your time is up (well before a blow up), "I have to go.  Bye for now."

You will get to the other side of the phone call.  When it's over, take a break, and treat yourself to some self-care.
 

[formflier]

  And remember to breathe during the phone call. 

Yes...and not the wimpy kind.  4-5 really deep...I mean deep and then get all the air out.

Here is the deal, many years ago...in a galaxy far far away, young FF got ready to hold his first boundary and I was scared (it felt so weird).

Many people that had been around for a while gave me scripts, encouraged me and built me up.

Guess what, it went pretty much like they predicted...I did the script and got past it.  The next one was better...and so on.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

[beatricex]

hi wmm,

Ahhh, the old "I want to be closer" trick.  Yup, I recognize that one as it's also in my BPD'd Mom's playbook.  What it usually means (and I am guessing it's why you're having this anxiety) is, she wants to dictate to you again, how you should feel.

hate it

Agree with all the suggestions thus far, and it does get easier with time.  take deep breaths, use a distraction technique if you get triggered during the call.  i use my dog as an excuse when my mom says something disturbing that I want to pretend not to have heard...

Example:  Mom - b, you really should BLAH BLAH BLAH
Me - holy crap!  (laughs), the dog just blankety blank blank blank, sorry what did you say?  [don't wait for answer] OH look at the time, Mom I have to go!  talk to you later *click*

Eventually they get the picture that this is the new you, the one they can't snowball.  Hard at first, surprisingly easy later, when you get the hang of it.  I do like to throw the laughing curve ball at her, since she's usually trying to (whether she realizes it or not) make me mad

  wmm

b

[wmm]

I talked to her. She wasn't angry. She asked me if I had anything I needed to say and I repeated that I didn't feel comfortable going to her place for Christmas and that it wasn't anything personal and I would miss everyone. She said that she understood and wish I had said it that way in the first place (that was how I said it to her twice). Her way to get a jab in. She also said she wanted to know if I appreciated what my father and her had done raising me and she knew it wasn't perfect. I told her I did appreciate her and gave her an example. She wasn't asking for an apology so I said it but I don't know if I shouldn't have. I didn't know what to say. I do appreciate a lot of the things they did for me. My mom isn't always bad. If she was it would be a lot easier to cut her out of my life. I was good at not telling her anything too personal. I'm worried maybe I didn't stand up to her enough although I didn't give in to going to Christmas. No apology from her, which isn't new. She thinks everything is back to normal now. I sometimes slip when it comes to keeping things simple with her when she's being nice. I'm afraid that when I talk to her I'll say too much by mistake. She can be really nice, or at least act like it, when she wants to. Did I mess up?

[Methuen]

Congratulations on a successful phone call. You managed it well, and nothing bad happened. You resisted her jabs, and kept your own Covid Christmas boundary of staying home.

She wasn't asking for an apology so I said it but I don't know if I shouldn't have.

Is "it" an apology?  It kind of sounds like she didn't ask for an apology, but you gave her one anyway.  I call that "conditioning", if that's what happened...she's trained you to apologise.  . Don't sweat it. IMHO apologies are best used when we have something we genuinely wish to apologize for, and it comes from within our own hearts, not because of someone else's demands, or need to control. 

I didn't know what to say.

Maybe just change the topic of conversation?

I'm afraid that when I talk to her I'll say too much by mistake.

Could you keep a list of neutral topics handy - weather, kids, cooking, pets etc?  It might be easier to not cross your own boundary of saying too much, if you have other topics of conversation ready that you could switch too. 

Did I mess up?

You did great.  You were stressed about this phone call, and you handled it really well. Congrats!  Next time something comes up, remember that this went well, and keep building on these small successes.  Baby steps.

[Notwendy]

It is progress, not perfection, and you will get better at this with practice. So don't worry if your response wasn't "perfect". You made progress with not getting into drama with her while holding on to a boundary ( not coming for Christmas) and also not biting the bait " if you had said it the first time". Yay!

You are becoming more self aware of your behavior and your feelings. When you do go on automatic- apologize, say something habitual, you feel uncomfortable. Good! Pay attention to these feelings and they will guide you. Make note of what you do/say automatically and you will be able to change your responses in time.

She also said she wanted to know if I appreciated what my father and her had done raising me and she knew it wasn't perfect.

This is what I call the "dry erase" method of apology. It's not really an apology. It's enlisting you into a mutual agreement to erase what happened- it's all good now. I don't see this as something sinister- I see it as the best apology my mother can do.   Keep in mind that pwBPD have difficulty with uncomfortanble emotions. Shame is a tough one. I don't think my mother can handle that. The least bit of a suggestion that she wasn't perfect will cause her distress and to dysregulate. I have heard her alude to how she raised me maybe only twice " well it wasn't quite perfect" and that's about all she can do. This dees not mean what happened didn't happen,  but that it's not helpful to bring it up as that won't lead to a better resolution.

Best to not seek an apology from her or bring up the past, but to move forward with your own boundaries and new skills for how to relate to her in a way that is more authentic to you. This is a work in progress.

She thinks "all is fine now". Well good. You can still keep working on you- your autonomy, and how to stand up for yourself without contributing to the drama patterns.

[formflier]

I'm going to say two thumbs up. 

It appears to me that you went into the phone call with a couple "lines drawn" that you were not going to cross (travelling being number 1) and you held them.

I see a bit of unease and questioning because a couple things "came at you" that you weren't quite prepared for and seem straightforward.

"Do you appreciate..."?

I'm not sure I've ever heard it put that way before.

Certainly with me I tend to get myself in trouble when it's the first time I've seen/heard something.  Sometimes if it's been a while (like what happened a few days ago to me). 

Anyway...these forums are not about teaching us to always be perfect and never mess up.  They are about giving us confidence in tools that when we "see" a booboo, we know how to handle it.

You will continue to improve.  Count this phone call as a victory and keep moving.

Best,

FF

[bethanny]

Unrecovered borderline personalities cannot do conflict resolution.  It is their way or the highway.  My mother manipulated me using my pity for her and my fear of her hysterical reactions when she was inconvenienced.  She deliberately feigned not understanding me and skewing things negatively I was saying.  The big lie was once she understood I would be dealt with rationally but that wasn't true.  "I don''t understand" meant NO.

Decades ago I told my mother after being out west for five weeks visiting brothers that I would not see her the immediate weekend upon my arrival but the weekend after that. 

She became hysterical, character assassinated me to everyone in our mutual network that I had gone scarily crazy because I refused to ever see her again which I had not said at all.  Which shocked me. 

Her sobbing into the telephones of the significant people in my life and telling them either a blatant lie or an actual paranoid fear was too much for me. 

Plus, the last time I had dared to displease her so much, she treated me with such consistent contempt that I collapsed into clinical depression.  That was in my mid-20s.

I decided to wait out her temper tantrum.  After 10 years of estrangement from family and only rare letters from her whereupon if I responded as the adult woman I was, I was responded to with rage or silence, I got a note from a brother saying they thought she was dying in a CT hospital and would I like to come and say goodbye.

I went immediately.  She didn't die after that stroke.  I rejoined the family on the margins.  She and my dad pretended the decade of estrangement had never happened.  I recognized that affinity was all she was capable of. I kept a boundary.  I could feel the rest of the family wanting me to take on the bonds of being a constant enabler to my  mother again.  I avoided that trap but I embraced a sad weariness that has stayed with me always.  A sad permanent sense of surrender and loss.  Also a distrust in all relationships and insecurity about my own identity, from my mother's rigidity as well as the painful detachment and ignorance of my social network to the hell and actual reality I was going through with my mother, as well as with my father's alcoholism.

Intimacy is required for communication.  With my mother the best she could handle was "affinity" on her terms.

I wish I had known about BPD back then and applied it to her.  It would have meant maybe a less roller coaster existence for me.  Maybe I wouldn't have been so successfully terrorized and confused and crazymade from her dominating behavior.

When I challenged my mother, she didn't just go after our relationship, she immediately and dramatically upended my relationships with an entire network of people.  I made the choice to detach.  I didn't have the will or stomach to challenge her. I still felt tremendous pity for her even then and part of me was still protecting her.  As well as the factor of my newly acknowledged terror that she had inspired in me since I had been a toddler. 

Good luck.

Best,
Bethanny

[Notwendy]

Bethanny- the dynamics you described are similar to my relationship with my BPD mother. Knowing about BPD earlier would have helped me to navigate the situation better, but we only can do what we know at the time.

It's my mother's way or the highway too. She sees people as either on her side or not her side. The requirement for being in her favor is complete compliance with her wishes. There is no conflict resolution.

I also came to the conclusion that an intimate relationship with her is not possible, but as you describe "affinity" is as long as her needs and wishes are met and I don't have any expectations for anything different than what it is.

I also have the experience of challenging my mother who also then disrupted my relationship with others in her circle, including family members on her side of the family and my father.

My mother had absolute power in the family and we were terrified of her.  She controlled us through our fear of what she was capable of doing- destroying a toy, and later, a relationship. My main emotional attachment to her was because I was attached to my father, who is now deceased.


The only way I know to cope with this is to not want anything from her, or be close to anyone who is close to her. I have a cordial but detached relationship to the people in her circle. While I think affinity is the best she can do, it's also best for me to also maintain an emotional and personal boundary around her.


 

[bethanny]

Notwendy,  I think we have communicated in the past.  I recognize your name and your gentle style of communication.

Appreciate what you are saying and nodded through your comment.

I had 5 weeks with an EPA therapist and despite my going through so many stories of extreme irrational and debilitating behaviors from my mother at various stages of my life, the therapist concluded at the end of the sessions that my mother and I were a "bad match" temperamentally.  I was gobsmacked.  The behavior I described from my mother was pathological.  Also, the counselor at times pointed out the stress on my mother in her life, as if I were not appreciative of her stress and motivation.  I wrote about this in a separate thread on here. My intense empathy for her stress as her daughter was what kept me locked in for so long playing the obsequious daughter she indicated was my permanent DUTY no matter how old I became.

It was great to read what you wrote and to feel validated. To have someone echo the profound nature of growing up in the thrall of someone with this serious disorder.  To be so vulnerable to their extreme emotional mood swings, and their need for control. 

I always blamed myself for being afraid of my mother when i let myself momentarily acknowledge that.  I thought there was something off with me. I even felt guilty and very confused by it.  Even though in reality I had had plenty of terrifying moments with her when we were alone. But then she would flip back into the "nice mommy" role unless i had especially peeved her, usually unwittingly, and the contempt and punishment continued on and on, inappropriately extended. 

I had to walk on a high tightrope without a net to keep that "nice mommy" present and to have good will to me. 

Not exactly unconditional love. 

I also tried to think that the attributions she bestowed on me as a child, that were actually manipulating my natural grandiosity to strain to please her, were evidence of her recognition of a specialness in me.  A rationalization I desperately clung to as I became self-hating for not being that perfect image she assumed and demanded I be.

To be the exceptional "good girl" who readily self-sacrificed to please my mommy to make her proud of me.  This was a trap that made me doubt my own true self and my own right to pleasure and satisfaction independent of my mother's being.  I was always second guessing what was expected of me from my mother. There was hell to pay when I didn't get it right, but again I fought to rationalize that my mother saw me as an exceptional human being and that is why she had those expectations. 

My people pleasing with others grew from that mode.  I was not allowed to express inconvenient feelings like anger or sadness or fear, so I naturally, or rather unnaturally, wore that mask around others.  Also fearing that if I made a human misstep with them I would be rejected or abandoned. 

I didn't realize I was useful for her own ego neediness with her network to have me so accommodating to her and to others. Also, I was to be the perfectly available mother to her when she needed attention.  I was also to be the obsequious and will-less child when she wanted to be in the mother role.  Infantilization switching off with parentification ... based upon her needs ... not about my own genuine developmental stage at the moment.

Scott Peck said it is evil to titsuck from and control the same person.  I know exactly what he was talking about.

I think I was scapegoated most by her, but the rest of the family lived in her thrall and when I broke through the prison of my denial, I could not get support from them since they were locked in their own degrees of denial.  A denial I had enabled with them, before I broke through.

My dad was an alcoholic.  He could be traumatizing.  I felt sorry for my mother and she played on that.  Since he disappointed her and wasn't there for her enough, it was my job to be accessible.  The only girl, the oldest.  I was also responsible for fixing him, getting him to stop drinking and making their marriage happier she made it clear.  That was a carrot of promise for me.  Once I accomplished that, only then I could have my own life. 

But of course I couldn't get him to stop drinking, especially when I was trying to do that for her sake, not even his. 

When I ultimately seriously crossed my mother, I saw how quickly she took on the role of my victim, the same way she played the victim before to my eyes with my father.  That was stunning to me.  How quick my role of rescuer got changed to me as her persecutor. And instead of conflict resolution with me, she reached out to others I was close to get them to control me for her, just as she had done with me with my father.

With all the secrecy I had grown up with and the horrors of fights I had witnessed, my mother felt no discretion in dragging as many people into a conflict with me without any intention of ever directly having to sort it out with me. I was dismayed since the alcoholic family demanded such thick secrecy.

I am so grateful to know about BPD.  After a long estrangement I came back to live on the edges of my primary family.  I realized my mother was not capable of communication. That she was histrionic and that the "tough love" that I learned about in the 12 step rooms did not work on someone with BPD.  At least not from someone like me to her.  I had been conditioned from such a young age to obey her out of fear. 

I accepted the "affinity" status of our relationship and did the best I could relating to her and the family.

It was frustrating the counselor last month couldn't begin to get it. Especially since I have a superior at work who had been triggering fear in me by being irrationally critical and disrespectful.  Very much like my mother would get despite the reality.

It is frustrating that siblings and others still can't begin to grasp the full nature of my mother's BPD. But I have finally sorted out the reality for myself.

It was like growing up and being tasered whenever I was enjoying my freedom as a human being but having taken the focus off of her and her needs, trying to discover my own uniqueness and strengths. To reach for joy.  To make mistakes.  To change and grow.  I was expected to stay on a leash, and focus on her life above my own.  My life was to be sacrificed to serve hers. I was to be the perfect her, it felt like.

And the horror that when I displeased her there was no reservoir of good will over the past investment of time and energy and love from me.  It was as if she saw me suddenly as an evil trickster who was betraying  her.  A seeming paranoia.

I rationalized that I pitied her for so many decades. I denied the degree of terror she inspired.  I blamed the stress of my dad's drinking for her irrational and cruel moments with me. Because of her pain from his drinking binges, she made it clear to me I was to always be available to help compensate for that.  I became more and more enmeshed in their conflicts the older I got.

I wish I had considered more her as a stressor for my dad's drinking.  But I can't balance out a judgment for either parent comparatively.  They were both traumatizing. I think she was jealous of my relationship with my father.  But I was so brainwashed to see him as the victimizer to her I lost the opportunity of developing a deeper relationship with him and he with me.  And when he was in his drunken altered state, he was clearly frightening and dangerous. But even sober, he often showed little empathy and sudden cruelty at times.  But he was always framed as the "problem" by my mother.  That was not fair.  She was so hyper-controlling.  She always had to be right.  Get her way.

Enthrallment to a BPD parent and to the quicksand of a parents' miserable marriage is like being a POW.  Generates complex-PTSD.  The complex part is that you are overwhelmed with the futility of ever exiting the entrapment from the continuing trauma. There is no escape.  There is chronic fear you will be seen as a betrayer and lose the "love" of the parent if you reach for your own needs and wants. Your natural will is stymied by the terrifying consequences of being rejected and abandoned by the parent who has inspired so much codepence in you.

Thanks for sharing and listening.  It helped!

Best,
Bethanny
 

[beatricex]

bethanny and Notwendy,
Just wanted to say I completely relate to the this:
"When I challenged my mother, she didn't just go after our relationship, she immediately and dramatically upended my relationships with an entire network of people."

I found ways to mother myself.  I am now the person I wished she had been, caring, kind, empathatic, nurturing to me.  That was the way out, and in time I started to trust people, and now have a pretty cool relationship with my husband.  If my Mom tries to put her claws in him (we talk about this occasionally), or even just calls him behind my back, I told him, he needs to tell me immediately.  We are not playing those games with her.

She has taken most of the rest of my family support system away from me (my brothers and sisters are in so much competition with each other because of her, it's ridiculous), I won't let her get to my husband.
 

b

[Choosinghope]

Although everyone's story is so different, I've started to see very sad patterns in them all. One pattern is the pwBPD will slander whoever the "black child" is to family members, friends, community, etc. Of all the things my mom has done over the past year, that is the action that hurts me the most. And I can't say that I fully understand why she's doing it. The logic just isn't there. She's telling everyone she knows (even gone so far as to call/write/Facebook message my good friends) how dangerous my life is and how much she's worried about me. Simultaneously, she has completely cut me out of her life. On no level does that make sense, and it ruins her credibility with the "caring mom" role. People are slowly catching on to the truth, and realizing that she's not acting logically or lovingly. If I've learned anything though, it's that people aren't blind. Eventually they'll catch on. And if they don't, those just aren't safe or healthy people to have in my life in a significant way. It's sad. I hate that my mom has fractured my life so much, but I am working on control the aspects that I can--namely, the people I welcome into my heart and home.

[bethanny]

beatricex and Choosinghope.  I just lost a long response to both of you. Not sure what happened.  Darn.

I relate to what you both are saying so much.  b-"Complete compliance" is the perfect phrase. 

Triangulation was used by my mother.  For years she had scapegoated my alcoholic father and I was boxed in as her "rescuer".  She was determined that I never have my own independent adulthood.  I was naive in thinking once I fixed my father so he didn't drink, they would be happy, I could go on to my own life. Wow. What a trap.

It is unbelievable the lengths an unrecovered BPD parent will go to keep you in line.  There is no honor.  No respect.  It is wise of you to stay vigilant with your husband, b.  Such a willingness to poison one's image when the BPD is fighting even the most modest bid for freedom of an adult child to modestly assert her own will. To put her needs over her mother's even for a New York minute. 

After years of keeping family secrets re my Dad's alcoholism my mother had no discretion in character assassinating me to available others.  You are idealized or demonized.  Despite how irrational and unjust it is. 

My mother drove me to clinical depression in my twenties when I had inadvertently "betrayed" her according to  her.  Did not follow the rules that I didn't even know since I couldn't "mind read" her rules. It was crazymaking.  My emotional illness was like gasoline on a fire, a mother who was solicitous to her children's physical health, was irrationally sadistic and cruel over my symptoms of emotional disease -- "dis-ease".  I was still in too much denial to realize how much her behavior to me had caused my breakdown in the first place.

c - I appreciate what you are saying about the betraying manipulation of others.  When my mother became so unjustly and irrationally enraged before my estrangement and ended up calling everyone in our mutual social network (even people I knew she didn't like herself) sobbing that I had seemingly gone crazy and was being cruel to her, one of my frantic brothers pushed me to contact her.  Emphasized how worried she was about me and how dangerously upset she was.  I called her and there was no sobbing and caring directly to me, there were flames coming out of my end of the phone.  Annihilating anger. 

I think that was such a turning point for me.  Her willingness to destroy my relationships, to character assassinate me to get me back in line. Her unwillingness to do any conflict resolution.  It was impossible for her.  I thought with time she would settle down and get it.  But she didn't. 

Since I was conditioned to be terrified of her since a small child, the "tough love" I could exercise on her was limited as was my trust that I could push through all that contempt streaming out at me.  But I don't think "tough love" works on someone who's egotism or paranoia is so intense.  I honestly wonder which or maybe both.

After a 10-year estrangement with not only her but my family network, I participated in the margins of my family, a sadder but wiser girl as the song goes.  I realized that she was never going to be capable of relating to me as a fellow adult.  The cost of my escape was high in terms of years of mourning and confusion, but the cost of being psychologically enslaved by her would have been much worse.

"Affinity" not love and intimacy was the connection and had always been the deal.

Once as an adult approaching middle age I recognized I responded to her more out of terror than empathy, which I also genuinely had, and that I had to detach from her for sanity's sake. 

Scott Peck says it is evil to titsuck from and control the same person at the same time.  He got that right.

Thanks again.

Best,
Bethanny
 

[Notwendy]

Choosinghope- it's very sad and to me it's unthinkable to do something like that, but I see this pattern in families in different ways. Sometimes there are sad posts from parents whose child's BPD spouse has interfered with that relationship. Sometimes it's a situation like ours.

I did not expect that aspect of this. I was so attached to my father and assumed he cared about me too. I know he did, but yet, BPD mother controlled his relationship with me. She has also told her family members lies about me.  It puzzled me that when they heard these things about me, they didn't even reach out to me to ask if they were true- they just believed her. My mother lies constantly- the things she tells other people about me, she has completely made up.

When she does that, she swears them to secrecy and gives them some convincing reason to not tell me what she said or did and tells them to not discuss it with me. It's shocking to me how they just comply.

But I have heard about some of them, because occasionally someone does tell me.

One problem is that there is no way to correct this. If I clarify what she said, then they need to believe it's a lie. But they already believe her- and so there's really no effective way to change that- except to hope that in time,  they will see what is true for themselves.

Some of her family have now reached out to me to try to reconnect. I think they have seen through some of what she has told them. They are aware that there are issues between us but I have made it clear that I will not discuss her with them. I won't get into a triangle like that. I am cordial and pleasant around people in her circle but am also wary of them.

[formflier]

  They are aware that there are issues between us but I have made it clear that I will not discuss her with them. I won't get into a triangle like that. 

Notwendy

Can you give us a flavor of how these conversations went?

It seems important to you that triangles are avoided.  How did you figure that out?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF- trial and error, and a lot of personal work spanning several years.

At one point I started to have boundaries with my mother. She went into victim mode and rallied her "people" against me. I didn't know about the Karpman triangle at the time but learned about it and it helped explain the dynamics.

My first hint of what was said was when I learned some family members were discussing things my mother must have told them about me and none of them were true.

I was horrified, shocked, hurt and at a loss of what to do. If they believed that- there wasn't much I could say that they would believe. I got wind of some other things later through other people.

I did the only thing I knew to do and walked away from all of them and didn't speak to them for years. They didn't reach out to me either, she had told them not to. But these people were my family and I was very sad but didn't know what to do otherwise.

Ironically, I think my mother is behind them trying to reconcile. The resulting rift in the relationship is embarrasing to her because it doesn't go along with the "we are one big happy family" picture she wants to maintain so she's now trying to patch this, paint me white to them. The other part is that, I think they must have realized something by now because she's had a few behavioral slips in front of them. So one of them did reach out to me.

Now, I am on guard because- if these people think I am nuts, I don't want to reinforce that idea by being emotional with them. I also don't trust the reason they reached out to me- is it because she put them up to it? But I am cordial and polite, and said straight up to them. "I understand that you are aware there are issues between me and my mother, and I think it is best if we don't discuss her and just have the relationship between us". So I was quite direct about it and they seemed ok with that.

[wmm]

Firstly, I want to thank all of you for your support and advice. It felt very liberating standing up to my mother in a way I never had before. I don't think I could have done it without the support of all of you.

I relate to everything that you guys say about your relationships with your mothers and your families.

My sister started talking to me more after I worked things out with my mother.

I realized that my father had encouraged me to reach out to my mother because he couldn't deal with her drama. He said her drinking and mood had gotten much better since I had talked to her. He was having trouble dealing with it before.

I find myself slipping into old habits. I talk to her too much about personal things. I'm conscious of it now though and aware that I need to reign it in.

It's encouraging to hear that you guys have been able to stand up to your mothers and have been able to continue living your lives, even though it hasn't been easy. I hope to have the strength that all of you have had.

Thank you again.

[wmm]

Funnily enough, it was my father who told me about this psychologist. Hear is the link to the first video I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=share&v=R_jbRqNrAS8

It was only this summer, with the help of a therapist, that I realized that my bpdM was also a narcissist and the relationship between BPD and narcicisim. He has many videos about how to deal with a narcissist that I am currently watching and I find them very helpful. Hope the videos provide some help and reassurance to all of you.

[formflier]

Do you suspect your Father is much more aware of your Mom's dysfunction than you first believed.  Perhaps he has found his own pathway through it, with the help of psychologists?

Best,

FF

[wmm]

He doesn't like therapists. I told him about BPD and once he researched it he agreed. My bpdM is also an alcoholic and apparently she was drinking a lot before I talked to her. My dad didn't like having to deal with my mom's drama. That's why he wanted me to repair things with her.