Questions about psych evals

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

How do you get an honest psychological evaluation performed of someone that has zero incentive to tell the truth?

I would imagine a lot of posters here have gone through this process, and am curious to hear any tips you can provide.

[alleyesonme]

How do you get an honest psychological evaluation performed of someone that has zero incentive to tell the truth?

I would imagine a lot of posters here have gone through this process, and am curious to hear any tips you can provide.

[PearlsBefore]

Probably requires a bit more information, I mean I understand the problem - personality disorders can easily hide themselves when they want to impress. With BPD you have the additional problem as someone (Bill Eddy maybe?) identified...assessors are not used to seeing genuine emotion involved when somebody is actually just lying; so often they believe the lies because her sobbed "confessions" or "accusations" or "childhood backstory" are backed up overwhelming emotions that are not faked.

But in your specific case, to give advice - it would probably depend whether you are involved in the psych eval, if you get to speak to the evaluator, if you get to speak to the subject, if you get to prep the subject, etc.

[alleyesonme]

Probably requires a bit more information, I mean I understand the problem - personality disorders can easily hide themselves when they want to impress. With BPD you have the additional problem as someone (Bill Eddy maybe?) identified...assessors are not used to seeing genuine emotion involved when somebody is actually just lying; so often they believe the lies because her sobbed "confessions" or "accusations" or "childhood backstory" are backed up overwhelming emotions that are not faked.

But in your specific case, to give advice - it would probably depend whether you are involved in the psych eval, if you get to speak to the evaluator, if you get to speak to the subject, if you get to prep the subject, etc.

My stbEX has been physically violent with me a number of times in the presence of our child, has experienced severe road rage with our child in the car, and I've lost count of the number of times she's raged at me out of the blue for no reason. Before she meets with the expert, I'm sure she'll prepare extensively as to what to say and not to say, so she'll lie and deny all of this stuff. I'll be getting evaluated myself as well, which I'm fine with.

[ForeverDad]

As I non-professional, my disclaimer, I see a psych eval in most areas provides an overview of a person's mental state.

I learned the hard way that even this preliminary assessment needs attention on how it is handled.

I recall I took a Psych Eval when we first separated, by court order.  My results: anxiety.  Yeah, surprised?   Anyway, my lawyer flubbed it.  We did as required and shared with the other lawyer.  The problem was that her lawyer never shared her PE with us.  For all I know after all these years, she may never have even complied with the order to get a PE.  I learned my lesson.  Although I did well to ensure both of us were ordered to be assessed — so court was less likely to automatically view her as victim/accuser and me as abuser/controller — I never expected her not to comply.  And of course the court moved on.  I should have told my lawyer, "Here are my results.  Inform her lawyer that you are ready to exchange reports."

That's good as far as it goes.  However, it doesn't dig into details nor the family dynamic that much.  Often a separation event or divorce process can trigger a psych eval at the start, but it is not the primary decider for matters of child custody and parenting.  It may be helpful for temporary order but at some point a custody evaluation by a well-qualified expert may be needed to dig deeper into the family dynamic to assess how best to present a recommendation to the court.  This usually takes months with more psychological testing, interviews both separately and with the children.

A Custody Evalution is an in-depth assessment of the family relationships, can take months to complete and is usually ordered as part of a divorce case.  It is crucial that the custody evaluator is very experienced and respected by the court.  The CE can make or break your case, get a good one!

Here's a suggestion how to select professionals and have the court support you... if the stbEx (soon to be ex-spouse) doesn't agree with you.  Court prefers to see the parents share in such decisions.  So  your task, when the time comes, is to research potential custody evaluators and build a short list of the best of the best.  Then present it in court and state you're will to have stbEx select from your vetted list.  She may balk and insist she gets to find her own but this approach (you building a list and her limited to selecting from it) almost surely will get the court's approval.

[alleyesonme]

As I non-professional, my disclaimer, I see a psych eval in most areas provides an overview of a person's mental state.

I learned the hard way that even this preliminary assessment needs attention on how it is handled.

That's good as far as it goes.  However, it doesn't dig into details nor the family dynamic that much.  Often a separation event or divorce process can trigger a psych eval at the start, but it is not the primary decider for matters of child custody and parenting.  It may be helpful for temporary order but at some point a custody evaluation by a well-qualified expert may be needed to dig deeper into the family dynamic to assess how best to present a recommendation to the court.  This usually takes months with more psychological testing, interviews both separately and with the children.

You always have so many great tips to offer, and that obviously includes this area. Since we're primarily dealing with people who do or may have BPD on this site, have you found/heard that the people who perform custody evaluations are qualified to diagnose someone with BPD?

I definitely think a custody evaluation could help my case, but I guess I see the psych eval as the first step. Once we get the diagnosis from the psych eval (assuming we can), then we'd move on to the custody eval to really dig into the family dynamics. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

[ForeverDad]

I was in and out of family court from 2006 to 2013.  In that span of time I went from alternate weekend dad (2 years) to joint equal time dad (3 years) to full custody equal time dad (3 years) to full custody majority time during school year dad (final 6 years, but at least we never went back to court).  It took 8 years to get to an order that worked, meaning we didn't go back to court.

In all that time the professionals never sought to declare the root issue.  I knew from years of observation there were acting-out Personality Disorder issues.  But court and everyone else associated with the court limited themselves to the documented behaviors.  Two notable, but limited, exceptions were the mediator and the child psychologist who was our Custody Evaluator:

In my case we were ordered to have 3 mediation sessions.  At the first session we went through and agreed to all but a few material or financial issues.  We stalled on custody and a parenting schedule.  Ex was determined our son was "her" child, that's how things were in her native culture.  Factoid:  She was born and raised half her childhood in the state I resided in when I met her.  Mediator countered, "We're in the USA, not there."  (Another factoid, but I failed to mention it in the session:  Her mother let her father raise her two older brothers, her mother and the abuser SF raised her and her sister.  Well, I was the father of our male child, according to her parents' example then shouldn't I raise our son?)  Mediator saw we were at an impasse, ended the session and said "Come back when your positions change."  (We didn't go back.)  She didn't want to leave at the same time as me, still posturing as the fearful stbEx, so I stayed behind until she had driven away.  AS she walked out the door the mediator commented to the air, "This woman has issues."  After one session.  Mediation failed as expected but at least I tried with good faith efforts.

Do not expect a CE to make a diagnosis.  Like family court and most other professionals, they focus on the behaviors and especially on the parenting behaviors.  As my CE, a child psychologist, stated in the first session, "I'm not here to diagnose, I'm here to recommend custody and related parenting arrangements.  Be forewarned that generally a large proportion of the recommendation is based on who has a history of majority parenting."  Fortunately, my CE saw the big issues despite history of my ex being the Stay At Home Mother (SAHM) while I went off to work.  The report's initial recommendation?  "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... .Mother's temporary custody should end immediately... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then father should have custody."  Court ignored the immediate temp custody change recommendation, ordered a settlement conference then a trial.  The CE report was never used in court since my ex decided to settle literally at the last minute on Trial Morning, I got that news when I arrived at the court house.  Settlements "on the court house steps" are not uncommon.

While my ex seems sort of okay on the surface in public, only a little 'off', the CE had the expertise, experience and tools (MMPI-2 and other tests) to peer deeper.

These days I tongue-in-cheek state that the officials don't want us to Play Doctor.  Even if I had gotten a diagnosis of an acting-out Personality Disorder, it would still have to be investigated to what extent the diagnosis was impacting the parenting.  Add to that the fact that courts aren't there to 'fix' the parents.  They're more like somewhat passive referees.

Some members had spouses who had a history of hospitalization and observation for mental health concerns.  Some of those had been diagnosed and so that could be presented to the court.  I'm just cautioning you that getting a diagnosis is not The Solution.  We win for ourselves and for our kids across a spectrum of evidence and testimony.

[alleyesonme]

I was in and out of family court from 2006 to 2013.  In that span of time I went from alternate weekend dad (2 years) to joint equal time dad (3 years) to full custody equal time dad (3 years) to full custody majority time during school year dad (final 6 years, but at least we never went back to court).  It took 8 years to get to an order that worked, meaning we didn't go back to court.

In all that time the professionals never sought to declare the root issue.  I knew from years of observation there were acting-out Personality Disorder issues.  But court and everyone else associated with the court limited themselves to the documented behaviors.  Two notable, but limited, exceptions were the mediator and the child psychologist who was our Custody Evaluator:

These days I tongue-in-cheek state that the officials don't want us to Play Doctor.  Even if I had gotten a diagnosis of an acting-out Personality Disorder, it would still have to be investigated to what extent the diagnosis was impacting the parenting.  Add to that the fact that courts aren't there to 'fix' the parents.  They're more like somewhat passive referees.

Some members had spouses who had a history of hospitalization and observation for mental health concerns.  Some of those had been diagnosed and so that could be presented to the court.  I'm just cautioning you that getting a diagnosis is not The Solution.  We win for ourselves and for our kids across a spectrum of evidence and testimony.

Thank you for the info. I'm so glad that your patience paid off in the long run, but it's a shame that it took so long for you and your ex to both get what you deserved.

I guess I see the diagnosis and the documented patterns of behavior as supplementing each other. The patterns of behavior will make a diagnosis more likely. Even if we get the desired diagnosis, we'll still be emphasizing the patterns of behavior, but then we'll also hopefully make the link between a diagnosed BP with certain documented behaviors and the dangers of that person parenting a child. Does that sound doable based on your experience?

Also, my ex knows that I think she has BPD. Going into her psych eval, I expect her to do a lot of research on the criteria for a diagnosis. What can we do on our end to overcome the lies that she will tell when she's being evaluated? She has zero incentive to tell the truth about her inability to regulate her emotions.

[trappeddad]

Someone can fake answers to psych eval questions.    Maybe not fake 100% of the questions.     My made herself look good by not asking the questions correctly.     Do not invest much in a CE if you think this applies to your situation too.

[alleyesonme]

Someone can fake answers to psych eval questions.    Maybe not fake 100% of the questions.     My made herself look good by not asking the questions correctly.     Do not invest much in a CE if you think this applies to your situation too.

Thank you for the tip. Is there a way to provide the truth to the person performing the eval?

[scraps66]

I have seen cases where a CE was done WITHOUT having a psychological eval done of both parties.  This is bad.  The intent of the psych eval is to determine whether either parent has issues that would prevent functioning as a fit parent.  I would say the only way to get a decent CE is to start with a credible psych eval.  I got a psych eval by the best forensic psychologist in the tri-county area, determined that I had no issues that would impact my ability to parent.  ExNPDBPDw, not so.  She successfully avoided getting her psych eval, even with three trips back to court.  The second contempt hearing we stipulated that ex was to use the same Dr. as I used for my psych eval.  The Order came out and there was no mention of what Dr. to use - the court procedures state that this information, along with what tests are to be done, are to be included in the Order.  They weren't - was recorded in the hearing transcript, but not in the Order.  Back to court we go.  Ex is pro se so there was no way to communicate with her at the time.  We are in the hearing, ex announces that she did in fact get a psych eval and that it was submitted to the court.  Somehow they fetch the package and we review it AFTER leaving the hearing.  What she had gotten was a totally bogus eval by the absolutely worst, most unqualified psychologist in town.  It was a total farse still stuck in my craw to this day.

So as far as who does an eval, it needs to be someone that both does court-ordered work and is respected by the court.  It also has to be someone that is well versed in how to read and interpret the results.  This can't just be any old psychologist, not everyone can administer a psych eval.  The psych eval won't lead to a diagnosis, as my doc told me that would require more testing.

As far as how to detect a liar that doesn't want to be detected, this is where it is necessary to have a top notch psychologist administer the test. The Order should also state why the eval is being done, like "for custody purposes."  The doctor had also asked me, "was there any abuse," that answer of which could determine what additional tests need to be administered in addition to the psych eval itself.  I know I did about four tests in total including the MMPI-2 which is the heart of the psych eval.  But the three additional tests help to corroborate the results of the MMPI-2.     

[livednlearned]

start with a credible psych eval

Good suggestion.

alleyesonme, you may have to specify that you want the MMPI-3 done (FD mentioned somewhere that this is the updated version of the MMPI-2). Then, you'll have to find a forensic psychologist who is trained to administer the test. Not all forensic psychologists are trained to administer this test. You may want to ask about other tests specifically for PDs, but sometimes there has to be enough cause to request a specific test because the courts do not want to see mental illness weaponized. Your custody evaluator may coordinate this, so it might be worth asking a few questions about how things work that are specific to your county. I didn't have a CE but I did have a parenting coordinator (PC). My L recommended that we work with a PC who trains PCs in our state because she was considered among the best, ethically and professionally. Hopefully you can select the CE in your case, and from there, help guide the selection of the person who administers the psych eval.

A couple of thoughts:

*With these objective psychological tests, there are statistical probabilities that someone will answer (as an example) questions 1, 63, 246, 312, and 488 the same each time. If there is a pattern of that, then the results will conclude that the test taker may be "presenting falsely," which is an actual potential result.

*Sometimes the test results are kept confidential so that neither party sees what the other person's scores reveal. The CE and the judge might see, and the two lawyers might see, but you may only get a verbal summary. It's good to find out how this will work in your case.

*If you and your ex are permitted to see the results, you may want to ask how that information will be used. For example, if you discover she has xyz diagnosis, you might have to hire an expert witness to testify why that dx is a factor in custody. Even if she were dx'd as having BPD, family law court is not likely to allow a dx to determine custody without someone explaining why.

Like scrapps66 suggests, there are a lot of opportunities to stonewall and obstruct the process of getting the psych eval done.

When you see a draft copy of the motion requesting the CE you can add details. For example: The type of tests to be administered and who will administer it. List 3 reputable psychologists then give ex a choice to pick 3. Describe how the results will be handled. Specify the date by which the eval must be completed, otherwise xyz will occur (ideally something reasonable and in your favor). It helps to address inaction with a reasonable contingency or consequence so that you can move forward in some way regardless of what she does (or doesn't do).

Also, this is kind of a procedural thing, but it sounds like scrapps66 and I had a similar experience to what I went through:

The Order came out and there was no mention of what Dr. to use - the court procedures state that this information, along with what tests are to be done, are to be included in the Order.  They weren't - was recorded in the hearing transcript, but not in the Order.

If you can, have your L write up all the orders, which typically happens after the hearings. Usually it's a courtesy thing between the Ls about who will do it, but you can say to your L that you will pay for it. That way you can dot your i's and cross your t's before the order is entered and it will reflect the attention to detail that helps us get better outcomes.