Wife hit me and threw things at my son and I Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347657.0


The temporary PO was approved this morning. She is to have no contact until the hearing next week. I am to not do anything that would cause her to violate it either.

I am really questioning if I did the right thing. I keep replaying the incident to help me feel better, but I am full of doubt and hoping I didn’t overreact.

[RestlessWanderer]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347657.0


The temporary PO was approved this morning. She is to have no contact until the hearing next week. I am to not do anything that would cause her to violate it either.

I am really questioning if I did the right thing. I keep replaying the incident to help me feel better, but I am full of doubt and hoping I didn’t overreact.

[I Am Redeemed]

I totally get the second guessing and feeling that you may have overreacted. This is common when you first begin to set healthy boundaries.

Let me assure you, you did not overreact.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Redeemed. From my experience with a violent partner, once they’ve crossed the Rubicon, it happens more quickly and more frequently. Your son doesn’t need to ever experience that again.   

[CoherentMoose]

I wouldn't go back. I'd never go back and be in the same room alone with her again. And I'd make sure any messages she sent I kept, if the mentioned the incident and documented it, I'd definitely keep them (so unblock and let her text and send messages  to get your documentation). I'd even respond with "you threw remotes at our kid and hit me. you attacked us. We're staying somewhere else, I'm not telling you where, we are not being around you after that." And let her explode again, in writing and in voice mails, and get your documentation.

I agree with this advice in the near term...say...30 to 45 days.  Yes, though the Holidays.  Your plan includes moving back on-to the property, however, suggest you find a way to not do that until she is off of the property or you are able to fully understand and mitigate all the risks to you, and especially to your son.  Use behavior based gates.  Her behaviors required in order to trigger unsupervised visits.  And use an independent third party for the supervised visits where you do not see her.  Time now to play hard-ball defense in my opinion.  Protect until safety is proven.  Good luck.  CoMo 

[formflier]

Perhaps until the hearing, stay off the property. 

Will your lawyer be able to go with you to the hearing (I hope so)


Can you clarify where you are right now?  Confirm you son is with you?

I have second guessed lots of my actions, and with the benefit of hindsight, almost all my second guessing, especially when others were backing me up that I was making a healthy decision...was unproductive.

As in second guessing was bad for me.

So...please realize that hitting is never OK.    Keep it that simple.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Right now I am on the property, at my moms. To avoid violating the PO my son and I are staying here for the time being. The other home is too close to where RWw is staying.

A sheriff’s deputy came by earlier to serve her, but she did not come to the door. So, she didn’t get served. I will not have any more contact with her.

My L is going to file for divorce today as well.

This is all overwhelming. I’ve spoken with my T a couple of times today. He helped me gain another perspective. Had my son been injured by W, and I taken him to the ER, they could have possibly called child protective services and taken him from me. I could have also been charged with a crime for allowing him to be in contact with her given her instability and addiction. This is yet another thought that helps keep me balanced.

My biggest concern is what reaction she will have when she is served and reads my statement. I know that I am legally protected, but everyone here knows that pwBPD don’t always honor the law.

[RestlessWanderer]

Oh and yes FF, my attorney will be “present” for the PO hearing.

[formflier]

 
This is all overwhelming. I’ve spoken with my T a couple of times today. He helped me gain another perspective. Had my son been injured by W, and I taken him to the ER, they could have possibly called child protective services and taken him from me. I could have also been charged with a crime for allowing him to be in contact with her given her instability and addiction. This is yet another thought that helps keep me balanced.
 

Your T and L seem wise. 

How old is your son again?  Has you T ever met him? 

There is lots of negative stuff that your mind can get caught up in, so I'm hoping you will consider focusing on positive things that help everyone move to a healthier place.

It's certain worth discussing with your T what an appropriate person would be to talk to your son and possible do therapy with him. 

Great habit for him to start.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

My son is 7. He’s been seeing a T that specializes in play therapy since January. I reached out to her to apprise her of the situation. She’s on vacation this week, but I’m hoping she will check her email and VM.

To keep me focused on the need to do this I’ve written in my pocket journal in order to clear my thoughts and reinforce the importance of doing this.

[formflier]

How has the play therapy been going?  I think that's wonderful that you are being proactive in this front.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

I totally get the second guessing and feeling that you may have overreacted. This is common when you first begin to set healthy boundaries.

Let me assure you, you did not overreact.

Healthy:  A reasonably normal person will always second guess ones self, that's healthy as long as it is kept within bounds so it doesn't become obsessive or negative.

Unhealthy:  On the other hand, a person seriously disordered would not think twice over unilateral or excessive actions.

[RestlessWanderer]

FF, he always enjoys his time doing the play therapy. She reports a healthy, kind, and caring boy. As it should be, everything they do is private. But she’s indicated that she has no concern about anything with him.

Redeemed, thank you for that reassurance. It helps keep my perspective healthy.

[RestlessWanderer]

This evening I signed paperwork, which my attorney will file tonight, for divorce. This is all happening so fast. But it’s best to ride this momentum. I’ve hesitated for far too long.

In many ways it’s quite symbolic that this is happening on the winter solstice. It may be the darkest night, but every day after today will be brighter.

It’s something to help me put a positive spin on this horrible situation.

[RestlessWanderer]

W was finally served this morning. But it was messy.  My attorney advised me that anyone but me could serve her. My W pounded on the door this morning before 8am. My mom handed her the papers, but W pushed her way into the house. After a few moments she began to search for us. I had S hide in a closet with ears covered. She made her way upstairs at which point I finally stepped forward to protect S. I attempted to gently steer her back downstairs, but gave up to avoid any physical confrontation. I stood in front of the bedroom door and kept her from entering. She sat down and tore up the document. I repeated over and over that she needed to leave. I didn’t respond to any of her statements. She insisted on waiting for police to arrive. About 5 minutes in I had my mom call the police. I maintained my composure and kept myself calm despite her escalating tone. After about 25 minutes she finally left. She encountered the police on the road and was served by them. Things seemed to finally calm down then.
I was able to get an audio recording of the entire incident.

My son was scared of her and said he didn’t feel safe with her. It’s heartbreaking because I don’t want to remove her from his life. But I’m a daddy bear and I must protect my son. I’m doing this not to hurt her (which really makes me feel terrible), not to get back at her (vengeance is pointless and nothing I’m interested in), but only to protect my son and I. Simply put, neither one of us felt safe around her.

Now we wait to see how the rest unfolds. I’m reading Splitting again just to prep myself.

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry. These services often are emotional

Was this service for the RO, or for the divorce, or both?

[PearlsBefore]

  Sounds like you've made some positive steps (and excellent that you were able to audio-record all of this), and remember - you don't have to completely remove her from your son's life. She should be encouraged to send him letters and gifts, to chat with him on the phone, read him a bedtime story over Zoom, whatever's possible while still keeping it clear where the line lies. Her reaction sounds like what one would expect, it can't be easy for her sitting in the double-wide on the property stewing about how you're both "so near, yet so far", etc. I assume you've turned your mind to the longer-term question of moving her into her own place in town, off the property. It's great that you seem to have an involved T and L on this issue.

[RestlessWanderer]

This for the TRO. The divorce will probably take longer.

Right now she is allowed to talk to him for an hour three times a week and Christmas morning. She can’t be within 100 yards of us. The hearing is scheduled for next week. I think she realizes that, at the very least, violating the terms of the order could jeopardize her chances of gaining some visitations or custody rights.
My S spoke with his T today. He told her that right now he doesn’t feel safe with her. He told her that he does feel safe here with me at his grandma’s.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m so sorry, RW.  It’s a very difficult time for you, your son, and your wife.

Knowing that he doesn’t feel safe around her definitely validates your decision to protect him from her. Still, I know it’s painful. 

[formflier]

 

I will join the others in stressing that you should  feel validated in your decision making.  Please be kind to yourself.


Let's switch gears.

Is all of the property and trailers owned by your Mom?  (i believe so but want to confirm)

Do you have written lease agreement for either trailer with your Mom or is everything strictly verbal?

Are there separate mailing addresses for each trailer? 

Is there a common driveway to all or can you come and go without passing the other trailer?

There is a legal thing between you and your pwBPD, there may need to be some legal things done between your Mom and your pwBPD.   

Pretty shocking that she would push her way into your Mom's home and stay for a while, knowing she was not welcome there. 

Let's get details together to potentially raise this with your L.

Also...where/how will visitation take place or will that be sorted out at the next hearing?  Who will do the "supervision" for those visits?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Can you give more details on  "pushing her way into the home"?  What if any physical stuff went down between your wife and your Mom?

Best,

FF

[Waddams]

if you have it recorded, you should go file a police report and give them the recording. given the timing, it might add up to enough for a violation of the TPO already, or merit it's own charges for battery, trespassing, etc. don't rely on your domestic law attorney for this. they don't know all the in's and out's. but going to the local precinct, playing the recording, and letting them vet it and pass it on to a detective or prosecutor, they'll know what action could be taken. just be very very careful to relay to them that you did not touch her or did not touch her in a way that escalated the situation, as shown by backing down and letting her by (shows you let her exert the most force in the situation which is a key part of the cop's evaluation of who the primary aggressor and therefore the legally culpable party). under no circumstances admit to anything physical with her or laying hands on her.

the TPO, the divorce, this new incident - put the pedal to the metal on this divorce process now. you've got the strongest case right now you can have for primary custody, supervision orders for visitation, etc. you will never be in a stronger position. do not take your foot of the gas, no matter how guilty you feel. you're future self in 10 years will thank you profusely. this isn't about her anymore, it's about you getting away from her and setting the stage for the best life you and your son can have when the divorce is final. that includes the most advantageous orders FOR YOU that you can get.

also, is your mother also a named protected party in the TPO? if she isn't, use the recording to justify having her and her residence added to the permanent order.

take note of something, when the cops showed you, you say she calmed down. she has full capability of controlling herself, she knew she'd get thrown in the slammer if she kept up so she suddenly behaved herself. understand she could have done that all along building up to this. she CHOSE not to. remember that when you're making decisions in the future.

[formflier]

That is kinda where I was going with some of my questions.

As it stands now, your Mom may (depending on state law) have a trespassing action.

What I think your Mom should do (assuming she is the legal owner) is send certified return receipt notice of no trespassing for all of her property (details of how it is split up legally may matter).

You also should likely post "no trespassing" signs.

State law will dictate how this plays out.  The states I have had to fool with this in had a much higher penalty and took it more seriously if the property was posted and if the person had been informed in writing to stay off.

I'll ditto the notion that you are in a strong position, don't let off the gas.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

 

I will join the others in stressing that you should  feel validated in your decision making.  Please be kind to yourself.


Let's switch gears.

Is all of the property and trailers owned by your Mom?  (i believe so but want to confirm) the double wide where RWw is staying is owned by my mom, the single wide is owned by me (mine before the marriage)

Do you have written lease agreement for either trailer with your Mom or is everything strictly verbal? Verbal

Are there separate mailing addresses for each trailer?  One mailing address, a box at the entrance to the property

Is there a common driveway to all or can you come and go without passing the other trailer? The entrance to the property has a driveway that splits. My moms house is ~50yd from entrance. The other split leads down the hill to the two mobile homes. The double wide is first then the single wide is at the end of the driveway

There is a legal thing between you and your pwBPD, there may need to be some legal things done between your Mom and your pwBPD.   Right now, she’s protected if we are in her home. But I see your point. I will look into this further

Pretty shocking that she would push her way into your Mom's home and stay for a while, knowing she was not welcome there. 
I wasn’t surprised
Let's get details together to potentially raise this with your L.

Also...where/how will visitation take place or will that be sorted out at the next hearing?  Who will do the "supervision" for those visits? TBD, the TRO implies that the visits would be supervised by CYFD

Yesterday morning RWw pounded on the door. My mom opened the door and handed her the papers. She kept the door open and talked to her. RWw then pushed her way in. My mom is 80yo and 4’10”, RWw is 5’8 and strong. My mom attempted to keep her from coming in, but didn’t risk injury and gave up her efforts. They stood in the entryway for a couple of minutes talking before RWw pushed past again. Same thing, my mom attempted to stop her for a moment, but stopped to protect herself. My mom told her several times that she wasn’t welcome to come in. RWw looked around downstairs for a moment then started upstairs. That’s when I came out and told her repeatedly that she needed to leave. I told her to read the order and that it was against the law for me to talk to her. I then told my mom to call the police. I made a couple of attempts to bar her from passing, but I didn’t want it to escalate into a physical altercation.  At this point maybe 5-10 minutes had elapsed. RWw then sat down in a chair and tore up the order. She was telling me that I couldn’t keep her son from her, expressing confusion about why this was happening. I stood in front of the bedroom door and kept repeating that she had to leave, that she wasn’t invited in. This went on for another 15-20 minutes. I kept my cool and remained calm throughout. She raised her voice a few times. She was accusing me of forging the document.
We live 30 miles from the nearest city, and there are very few sheriffs deputies. Our county is also a very large geographic area. So it can take a while for police or emergency responders to arrive on site. During all of this my son did a good job of hiding in a closet and covering his ears, but he undoubtedly heard a lot. He was very brave and didn’t express or appear to be very frightened. He did express that he didn’t feel safe when RWw was in the house.
When RWw left she either flagged down the deputies or was stopped by them. She was served at this point. Then the deputies came to my mom’s house to tell us she had been served. The also verified my son was ok. The deputies and I walked down to the mobile homes and I retrieved some items and checked that property was not damaged.

RWw came back after the deputies had left. She went straight to the single wide and entered. I immediately called police. The arrived as RWw was knocking at my moms door. She was asking for my key to the double wide. The deputies spoke with me and told me that they couldn’t keep her from entering the single wide. They then spoke with her for a while. I’m assuming the explained that I was entitled to keep my key to the double wide. I also asume they reiterated that she could not come up to my moms.
Later in the afternoon I got three texts from RWw. She was asking to see S for Christmas. The last message said that the first two were written earlier but didn’t send immediately because the battery died. She added that this was unintentional and she had promised the deputies that she wouldn’t violate the order.

[formflier]

I was county manager in a similar rural county.  Many times it would be one deputy, taking 30 minutes to get somewhere

ok..can you expand on the deputies thinking/reasoning why they could not keep her from going in the single wide?  Does that matter for you and your Mom?

OK, I get ownership of the trailers, what about the parcel of land?  Or are there different parcels?

Mailbox:  How will you make sure that your mail gets to you and her mail gets to her?

In my state a verbal lease takes just a few days notice to cancel, although most magistrates push for or will "give" a full 30 days if it goes to court.

Obviously, filter all of this through your L.

1.  I think you need to get copies of the "incident report" where the deputies came out.  Make sure it documents that she returned to the house after being told to leave and not go back and seeing the order.

Make sure the report states that she physically pushed her way into the house over your Mom's objections and physical resistance.

Then make sure you have digital copies of the report (pdfs), should those details ever become relevant in the future.

2.  I think you need an explicit answer and explanation from you L about the wisdom of a no trespassing letter (it may not matter in your state).

3.  I think you and your Mom need to consider the sending written notification to your wife terminating the verbal lease agreement. 

You, your Mom and your son need a haven...a refuge from the crazy.  I just don't see how her being so close is going to work out long term.  Since it's doubtful she would voluntarily leave, the sooner the notice...the sooner it can start working it's way through the court system to get your Mom possession of her property back.

 

Hang in there...

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

What if your wife shows up to your mom's while you are at work and pushes her way in again?

FF brings up a good point about the mail. Could you rent a PO box to keep mail separate?

My guess is that she is not prohibited from the single wide trailer if you are not there because it's not within the boundary stated in the order.

Just want to say great job on your willingness to call police for assistance. Many people find that a very difficult task in these situations, due to guilt, second guessing, not wanting the pwbpd to get in trouble, etc.

[CoherentMoose]

First up, I second all the above on how well you've handled the situations as they came up.  Nice.  And start organizing your documentation.  It appears you currently have the momentum to divorce and get custody with supervised visitation.  Hopefully she will get better in the future and relaxed visitation privileges will be earned back. 

You, your Mom and your son need a haven...a refuge from the crazy.  I just don't see how her being so close is going to work out long term.

I would say short term as well.  It cannot be good for your son to hear (see?) his mom act this way and the current situation has to be very difficult for his mom to handle given her current emotional state.  In addition, any physical contact is a recipe for disaster legally.   See if you can find a way to get some physical distance between you through the Holidays.  Either by staying with a friend, motel, or putting her up in a motel, arranging for her family to take her...something.  Make it a boys going on a walk-about adventure.  Distance may let some steam out of the boiler.   Good luck.  CoMo

[ForeverDad]

if you have it recorded, you should go file a police report and give them the recording... just be very very careful to relay to them that you did not touch her or did not touch her in a way that escalated the situation... under no circumstances admit to anything physical with her or laying hands on her.

You have a right to remain silent.  You are not obligated to testify against yourself.  Repeat, you don't have to volunteer to convict yourself.  Listen to your lawyer's advice.  Often you can ask for your lawyer to be present, or at least have some time to consult with your lawyer.  My lawyer said his first task was to sit on his client, meaning shut me up.  If a Yes or No answer will suffice, then answer simply and stop.  He didn't want me to chatter on and get myself into some unexpected liability or gift her some claims against me.

the TPO, the divorce, this new incident - put the pedal to the metal on this divorce process now. you've got the strongest case right now you can have for primary custody, supervision orders for visitation, etc. you will never be in a stronger position.

We advise you get the best temp order possible.  Later on she will surely claim how good she is and how bad you are.  Remember that many family courts default to favoring mothers.  From remote peer support it is hard to gauge to what extent the court and its supporting agencies will stand up for you and your children.  So take full advantage from the start.  Months from now who knows how much the court will view these incidents as continuing to be actionable.

This is not a time to be nice, forgiving, appeasing, etc.  Don't feel you have to demonstrate how magnanimous you are, court won't care.  Of course, neither should you be mean, angry or appearing vindictive.  As for her, court will ensure her rights are protected, probably more than necessary.

take note of something, when the cops showed up, you say she calmed down. she has full capability of controlling herself, she knew she'd get thrown in the slammer if she kept up so she suddenly behaved herself. understand she could have done that all along building up to this. she CHOSE not to. remember that when you're making decisions in the future.

This is a huge lesson for you.  In her eyes, you have no authority.  You have been in a close relationship and emotionally she cannot let you 'control' her, she must control you instead... as she has done for quite some time.  However, the police are a different matter, so is the court.  They are The Real Authority.

[formflier]

 Months from now who knows how much the court will view these incidents as continuing to be actionable.
 

Which is exactly why I'm pushing you to have a discussion with L about all claims that you and/or your Mom can move on RIGHT NOW.

Sure, state law may allow a trespassing claim to be filed in 6 months or a year, but that will look weird...especially if there is some other issue that just popped up.

Let's say that it's a year from now and you are going to court for the divorce.

It would be one thing to "claim" violations of a TPO and trespassing, it's quite another matter to show written proof of TPO violations and show the court a trespassing conviction, even if there was essentially no penalty.  (Most likely a magistrate will say it will be dismissed if there are no other incidents in a year..or two)

But isn't that in and of itself a gift, she now knows the "real authority" can give her a gift if she behaves or do something bad to her if she misbehaves.

Please consider it and discuss with L.

It's entirely possible that your L will advise against it or would have advised against it if it were YOU filing the action, but having a small elderly lady talking about getting pushed aside as an intruder came in her house.  Most rural counties (and the people there) don't take kindly to that.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

this thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347730.msg13132363#msg13132363