Legal question: someone called the police on my wife

[Notwendy]

I think the red flag moment that got your wife to consider treatment before is indicative that even someone with BPD recognizes the limit to a boundary. I think we tend to see boundaries as something we require the other person to do. A boundary reflects our values and just how much we would tolerate before it becomes the bottom line for us. And it's not easy to hold on to a boundary. It's the value we would uphold, even if the cost of that was the relationship.

They can be different. For one person, a boundary might be infidelity. It might be something different for someone else. It's tough to hold on to a boundary if the other person challenges it, but one has to do it if it is indeed a boundary.

I think a person with BPD can recognize when they have gone too far. It's at this point where they pull back and take action. However, eventually things can get comfortable. The boundary needs to be consistently enforced.

It's hard to change everything overnight. Maybe choose one boundary. For you Max, I think the #1 boundary is sleep. This might take some work. It might involve even more sleepless nights if the boundary is tested. I don't know how you will work this out but there needs to be some way. A room to yourself with a lock and a sound machine ( and a monitor in the kids room so you can check on them?) . A calm talk with your wife when she isn't dysregulating focusing on you, not her. "Honey, I love you and want to be there for you and the kids, but I need to sleep in order to do that" "This is my plan for getting some sleep" "If your blood pressure is dangerously high at night, you need medical assistancel, please call the doctor or 911 if you need help" or " if your blood pressure is too high , I will call 911 to help you". You might actually need to do this. She might even get the help she needs if you do. You aren't trained to regulate BPD.

The boundary needs to be consistent. You need to sleep. If she has a medical or psychiatric emergency at night, she needs medical intervention. If you change your approach and stick to this, eventually she will learn she has to as well.

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[maxsterling]

It's the value we would uphold, even if the cost of that was the relationship.

I think a person with BPD can recognize when they have gone too far. It's at this point where they pull back and take action. However, eventually things can get comfortable. The boundary needs to be consistently enforced.

For you Max, I think the #1 boundary is sleep.

A calm talk with your wife when she isn't dysregulating focusing on you, not her.

Agree with all of the above.  Basic self care is my first boundary.  Sleep #1.  A T for myself probably #2.  I am recognizing how far behind I am on basic self-care and household needs.  I really get zero time to myself right now.  If W is in a decent mood, I can ask her for time to take care of something (such as mowing the lawn).  She usually gets antsy after 15-30 minutes and starts bugging me about when I will be done.  As for your last statement - that is impossible.  She has been in a constant state of dysregulation for nearly a year.  There is no such thing as a "calm talk" right now.  If she is calm, me asking for more sleep or time will likely push her into a more dysregulated state.

Last night was no different.  W was outside while I was getting lunch ready for the kids.  W came in upset because one of the kids left her jacket and shoes outside.  Of course, I was to blame for not making sure our daughter brought it in, even though W was present when D took her shoes and jacket off and my hands were full with something else.  So W came in, screamed at me in the kitchen for a half hour, again asking for some kind of validation.  Again I am not sure what kind of validation she wants here, as the situation makes no sense to me.  She kept saying the argument was increasing her blood pressure, so I questioned why she was arguing.  I don't understand that part.  She specifically came in to tell me D had left a jacket outside.  I apologized, told her that I would help D put her jacket away in the future, and W continued to argue. 

She again argued to a point of rage.  Again she demanded I leave.  I was not sure what to do at this point, so I agreed to leave for awhile (I needed a break, so me leaving is also self-care).  As I walked outside, W slammed the door on my foot.   At first, I thought it was broken, but I think it is just bruised. I kept of my feet as much as I could the rest of the day, told W I may need to go to urgent care, but opted to see what happened pain wise first.   I wound up sleeping on the sofa while W put kids to bed, and managed to get 8+ hours sleep.

W has not apologized for the foot.  She has asked how it is feeling.  This morning it is just a bit tight and bruised, but I don't think it is broken.  W is claiming I am partly responsible for the foot, and still dysregulating this morning.  She has a T appt this afternoon.  I am going to half-ass my work day and use the time W things I am working in order to find a T for myself. 

[GaGrl]

Has your wife harmed you before?

[maxsterling]

Has your wife harmed you before?

Physically, once.  Maybe a few other times she grabbed me.  The one time I am speaking of was early in our r/s she was threatening suicide, I called 911, she tried to get the phone out of my hand, punched me and threw her phone and hit my head.  She then swallowed a whole bottle of xanax.  I was pretty bruised afterwards.  Police and paramedics came, took her to the hospital where she remained for two weeks.  I'm not sure when/how afterwards, but a social worker contacted me, and I was in a group trauma therapy for awhile after that.

[Latrodge]

Max
Your initial post on this thread said you had been off the boards for awhile. I noticed from your profile you have been struggling with this for a long time, and that you were considering consulting attorneys back in 2016 and 2018. You are now 5 years on from that, and I would suspect in another 5 or 10 years you will be in the same place... or worse.  I too went through a similar iterative process of exploring exit options, going back, and then repeating the cycle over several years when things got too bad again to tolerate. You are a strong man, my friend! You have certainly endured a lot, but you need resolve, as I did.

The physical violence does concern me.  A few years ago, my wife assaulted me when I was trying to get a backpack, get in my car, and leave for a hotel when she was raging (I believe that leaving is the smart thing to do in those circumstances, and I applaud you for doing that - although it is certainly a trigger for some pwBPD). I went to the police and she was arrested for domestic violence and assault, because I had physical evidence and bruising - but even then I was scared of entering the legal system, believing it would always be skewed against the male. This incident followed years of several 'minor' instances of hitting, pushing, slapping, invading my personal space in a confrontational manner, and violating/hiding/breaking my personal effects. I foolishly brushed these off... 

I was told by the DV counselor that once physical violence starts, it doesn't go back. It escalates. If your W is truly not concerned about the damage to your foot, that is a warning sign.  I'm not giving advice on staying or going, just think about how you want your life to be in another 5 years. Either decision will be difficult, but one will certainly provide you with more safety and control over your own life. BPD raging and dysregulation is one thing, but physical violence is another.  Please be careful.       

[maxsterling]

Thanks Latroge. 

The previous incidents that resulted in broken objects/physical violence police did nothing.  THey simply suggested a personal order of protection (restraining order - a civil matter).  One time they suggested that I just leave and likely she would just move out and I would never hear from her again.  The time she smashed dishes and made threats I was sure she would be arrested.   They said since they did not observe it, they could not do anything.  Another time she threatened suicide, with a specific plan - "I am going to go to a hotel now and kill myself".  Again, because *they* did not hear her say it, they did not do anything.  The time I had the bruises and she attempted suicide, the police told me there *may* be enough evidence to press charges, but it would be difficult and that a psychiatric hospital was probably the best option.   I think I got a double standard being a man, that somehow this was my problem to deal with.  As a result, I worry about getting the law involved unless I know something will come of it.  I do secretly audio record some of these outbursts as evidence just in case.  I actually recorded the one from last night.

Ultimately, the r/s is likely to end and I know that is completely beyond my control.  Right now I am trying to make the best decisions in the short term so that I can take care of myself and my kids and at least feel internally organized. 

[formflier]

What if you had a recording of the incident?  Would that allow them to "see" or "hear" it?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

What if you had a recording of the incident?  Would that allow them to "see" or "hear" it?

Best,

FF

I do in this case.  An audio recording.  I keep the recordings in case W tries to pull a legal maneuver where she leaves, makes false claims, and tries to take the kids.  I don't expect that unless I take the action to move her out.  From a criminal justice standpoint, I don't know that it is enough to go anywhere. 

W has an appointment with T this afternoon, and again for tomorrow afternoon.  Hope is that W is truthful enough that T persuades her to do more aggressive therapy.  Meanwhile, I am looking for a T for myself, and for the kids. 

[maxsterling]

I should also add that W's recent (past month or two) rage coincides with her trying to quit Marijuana.  She has been taking it "medicinally" for the past 3 years or so, originally for pain issues.  But I know and she freely admits that she uses it for stress and to "check out".  Over the past year it went from once per day usage to 4+ times per day.  She recognized that it was not good for her physically or emotionally, and thus the desire to quit.  I have no experience with it personally, and I did my very best to never pass judgment or be unsupportive.  I told her my concerns, but never told her to quit. 

My opinion now is that Marijuana is not a good mix for pwBPD.   For the first 6 months she used it, she seemed calmer and I think it helped her function.  After that, it has become a complete crutch.  And it seems that the substance itself heightens anxiety and depression symptoms over the long term. 

[formflier]

 
About the recordings.

I was asking more in the sense of record it, police show up and say.."well we didn't see it" and on the spot you ask them to listen.

If that would be enough for them to take action, vice say "wish we saw it".

Best,

FF

[khibomsis]

Max,  there is a huge difference between CBD oil and Marijuana, The former is made from hemp and contains almost no THC. It is THC which messes with the head and indeed should be approached with caution. I mention this because many with PTSD/Hypertension use CBD with some success. THC indeed, as you can see,  is more uncertain as to outcome. Hopefully CBD may be able to bring your family some relief in the short term.
In the long term indeed you have some tough decisions to make.  So glad you are getting a T to support you!

How is your foot today? Please have the foot Xrayed? There 200 bones in the foot and all  you need is for one of them to have a hairline fracture.  Should you need at a later stage to build evidence for a DV charge an Xray may help.

[Notwendy]

I know Max has been here a while and I am glad to see that you are posting again Max. I recall this situation because it resembled my parents, and one thing I was struggling with was not just BPD issues but trying to understand how my father- who was the "normal" one to me could allow my mother to treat him the way she did.

I had a hard time comprehending how my father worked to support us, was a great parent to us and yet, somehow turned the other way when it came to how she treated us. Why did he not intervene to protect us from her abuse? Why did he stay married to her under these circumstances.

I knew growing up that there were issues between them. I also know how she treated me but she also managed to convince me that I was to blame for that, and also to blame for the issues between my parents. So when I left home for college, I assumed things were better between them. I didn't go home much after that and during visits, I didn't really see much. My father never let on that there were issues. Yes, we saw them bickering and him jumping to do whatever she wanted, but I didn't see outright abuse.

Until he got older and had an illness,  and I went back to stay with them and help out and it was a complete shock to see her abuse him. It was understandable that under the strain of a spouse's illness, her BPD behavior was off the rails but I could see then that he was in an abusive relationship and understood that the reason he could not stand up to her to protect us kids was that he could not stand up to her for himself.

Being naive to the Karpman triangle, I tried to step in to intervene at this point. The response was predictable if I had known about it. BPD mom went into victim mode, Dad stepped in as rescuer, I was the persecutor. They both aligned over their shared anger at me. They did this when I tried to set boundaries with my kids.

This is why I don't suggest pressing charges, getting evidence, leaving the relationship. These are possible choices but I don't believe they are not going to happen unless the person who is being abused decides they have had enough of it.

If I were to suggest one thing it would be to shift to take some focus off BPD wife and on to self care. Get some sleep, get back into counseling, post on this board. Stop making excuses for her- it's always something else, the pot, the kids, the small house, the whatever it is- it's not external. The more her behavior is excused, the more the behavior will persist. Shift from trying to fix her to trying to help yourself deal with this, if possible.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic or futile, because it's not, but to me the way to change is through the non BPD partner, not the pwBPD, because it's the enabling behavior that contributes to the pattern, and it's also in the non BPD partner's ability to make this change. It's more effective to try to change one's own behavior than the behavior of someone else.

[maxsterling]

If I were to suggest one thing it would be to shift to take some focus off BPD wife and on to self care. Get some sleep, get back into counseling, post on this board. Stop making excuses for her- it's always something else, the pot, the kids, the small house, the whatever it is- it's not external. The more her behavior is excused, the more the behavior will persist. Shift from trying to fix her to trying to help yourself deal with this, if possible.

That's about where my mind is right now.  Shift my focus back to me until I can get organized.  Drastic change right now may not solve the problem, and my head and body are not in a place where I can handle that.  As time goes on, I can explore bigger solutions.  Last night I slept on the sofa again.  Once again, a better nights sleep.  Small self-care steps.  Another goal is to work from the office again one day per week.  That is usually a "reset" day.  Hasn't happened in two months due to pandemic and civil unrest.

I liken this to being plopped in the middle of a maze.  First you have to recognize that you are in a maze.  Then you have to choose a path without much to go on.  And it repeats, and repeats, and you get deeper into the maze because you can't see the whole maze at once.  Then someone gives you the bigger picture, and you see how deep you are, and it feels overwhelming all the turns you must follow to get out.  Those initial steps to get out were not bad choices, they were instinct choices made because you lacked information. 

I see dealing with a partner with BPD the same way.  Some of us don't immediately recognize it as abuse, or excuse it in some way.  In my case, my W flat out admitted she had BPD, so I excused her dysregulations as mental illness rather than abuse.  At that time, the dysregulations were every few months.   I tried a couple times early on to end the r/s or at least get her into a separate residence, and again the mental illness was the excuse why that was not possible.  At that point, I was looking for solutions to problems that would make sense when dealing with a a mentally healthy person.  I did not understand that these were things that are beyond the capacity of a pwBPD.  All those early turns were attempts to "get out of the maze" using logic that had worked in my previous life experience.  I didn't understand at the time that I was in a maze.

Last night W had a T appointment.  I think it made her more agitated because T was pressuring her on stuff.  She has an appt with a different T today.

[Notwendy]

Max, it's both a mental illness and abuse.

BPD is a spectrum illness- some people are more affected than others.

I think at times a person with severe BPD can act more lucid than other times, and that may be confusing.

Dr. Phil made an interesting statement on his show about a family with a disordered person, not BPD but the pattern was similar. The disordered person had complete control of the family as they were all focused on her moods, what she did.

He said " you are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

You could say this same statement with the word "maze". You have bought into her perceptions and feelings and they lead your decisions. It's a challenge but you need to establish your own reality. Just because she accuses you of something or feels something or says you are something doesn't make it true.

[formflier]

Do her Ts coordinate between themselves?

switching gears.

The "maze thing" is one of the reasons I often push for very simple solutions, such as calling 911 each and every time.  Make police listen to the recording..each and every time.  Constant pressure.

or

Walk away from conversations when a name is called or some other pre planned thing.

Because if you have to "think" when the "BPD heat is on", you will almost always come up short and regret those decisions made under pressure.


Last thing for today.  What if you stopped being "supportive" of her attempts to care for herself?


Best,

FF