Should I send this letter?

[Parents! Get help here!]

Back story: I've been married for 17yrs, and from the moment we got together, my narcSIL has been difficult and triangulating; often coming between hubby and me.
I confronted her in 2018 on something and she projected that I was the problem and had created so much pain and trauma for her. I offered her to talk with a counsellor of her choice on her terms and respected when she declined. She and her patriarchal and enabling hubby kept demanding I talk without a counsellor and argued that I was living by my feelings, faulty, misguided etc...
I disengaged a year ago - realising I needed to heal.

In July 2020 she had a lengthy conversation on the phone with my hubby - trying to triangulate hubby and position me as the perpetrator. Hubby listened and then replied "I'm not neutral here, I am on my wife's side" to which she replied, "Oh, I know!". My hubby then spoke with her hubby who was also rude about me and made comments about how I should be put in my place as the subservient wife. My hubby confronted him and he hung up, but then later apologized on the answering machine for some of the conversation but not in relation to me.

Hubby replied "got your message thanks" then also disengaged. Its been 6 months of pleasant radio silence. We sent a Christmas present with the other SIL and no note and enjoyed Christmas away with just our own kids.

The other day, hubby and I both got a nice text from my SIL thanking us for our Christmas present and trying to engage in conversation again. I had blocked her but still got the message on my message via iMessage. Hubby replied briefly "you're welcome and thank you for our gift too" (gray rock).

However, KEY ISSUE: both hubby and I are constantly torn as to whether we can forge a way ahead in which we can see the nieces and nephews, without tolerating the nonsense. Hubby is in a catch 22 as it seems that any initiation on his part to set a new normal implies we are flip-flopping on our stance. Ie, implies we are sorry.

It feels for me like the only way to go forward, is to speak the truth around my boundaries.

So... I am toying with sending a letter such as this and welcome your thoughts...

It was disappointing to hear the perception held of me, however, I am not responsible for changing that perception. I cannot engage with communication that is disrespectful of the conditions for a safe and non-judgemental platform for both parties to talk.
Going forward, I would value to host and have the cousins to stay and see each other when Nanny and Grandpa come day to stay next. You are welcome to communicate with (hubby) if and when that would suit, and we can make that happen.
Regards.

[kiwigal]

Back story: I've been married for 17yrs, and from the moment we got together, my narcSIL has been difficult and triangulating; often coming between hubby and me.
I confronted her in 2018 on something and she projected that I was the problem and had created so much pain and trauma for her. I offered her to talk with a counsellor of her choice on her terms and respected when she declined. She and her patriarchal and enabling hubby kept demanding I talk without a counsellor and argued that I was living by my feelings, faulty, misguided etc...
I disengaged a year ago - realising I needed to heal.

In July 2020 she had a lengthy conversation on the phone with my hubby - trying to triangulate hubby and position me as the perpetrator. Hubby listened and then replied "I'm not neutral here, I am on my wife's side" to which she replied, "Oh, I know!". My hubby then spoke with her hubby who was also rude about me and made comments about how I should be put in my place as the subservient wife. My hubby confronted him and he hung up, but then later apologized on the answering machine for some of the conversation but not in relation to me.

Hubby replied "got your message thanks" then also disengaged. Its been 6 months of pleasant radio silence. We sent a Christmas present with the other SIL and no note and enjoyed Christmas away with just our own kids.

The other day, hubby and I both got a nice text from my SIL thanking us for our Christmas present and trying to engage in conversation again. I had blocked her but still got the message on my message via iMessage. Hubby replied briefly "you're welcome and thank you for our gift too" (gray rock).

However, KEY ISSUE: both hubby and I are constantly torn as to whether we can forge a way ahead in which we can see the nieces and nephews, without tolerating the nonsense. Hubby is in a catch 22 as it seems that any initiation on his part to set a new normal implies we are flip-flopping on our stance. Ie, implies we are sorry.

It feels for me like the only way to go forward, is to speak the truth around my boundaries.

So... I am toying with sending a letter such as this and welcome your thoughts...

It was disappointing to hear the perception held of me, however, I am not responsible for changing that perception. I cannot engage with communication that is disrespectful of the conditions for a safe and non-judgemental platform for both parties to talk.
Going forward, I would value to host and have the cousins to stay and see each other when Nanny and Grandpa come day to stay next. You are welcome to communicate with (hubby) if and when that would suit, and we can make that happen.
Regards.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Sancho]

It has been tough dealing with this for the past 17 years - and I hope that you can find a way forward that changes things, which is what the letter is about.

If I was in your position I think I would go through a process of looking at how your SIL will react to the letter. I find when I think of writing something to my BPD I find that I am making the assumption that she will respond in a reasonable way - when I stop to think about it, I should not make that assumption.

So assuming your SIL will respond in the usual way, what chance do you think that the letter would bring about the consequences that you would like? Could it make things worse?

My guiding rule is that unless I think there is a 50% chance that what I say/ask/write will have a positive response then I don't go ahead.

I suppose this has come about by my leaping into things only to find myself in a worse position!

Just my thoughts  . . . .

[kiwigal]

It has been tough dealing with this for the past 17 years - and I hope that you can find a way forward that changes things, which is what the letter is about.

If I was in your position I think I would go through a process of looking at how your SIL will react to the letter. I find when I think of writing something to my BPD I find that I am making the assumption that she will respond in a reasonable way - when I stop to think about it, I should not make that assumption.

So assuming your SIL will respond in the usual way, what chance do you think that the letter would bring about the consequences that you would like? Could it make things worse?

My guiding rule is that unless I think there is a 50% chance that what I say/ask/write will have a positive response then I don't go ahead.

I suppose this has come about by my leaping into things only to find myself in a worse position!

Just my thoughts  . . . .

This is such a good question! Thank you. The chances of her responding well are zero. She has a victim mindset and firmly sees that I am a bad person. I disengaged because I felt like the projection and gaslighting was impacting my mental health and eventually, I ended up in the therapist room asking "please tell me if I'm going insane!". I sometimes feel guilty for feeling like I have run out of options of ways to make the relationship work. I think I have to accept that any attempts to go forward will have to come from hubby.

[Resiliant]

Hi Kiwi!

I know you are from the other board, so I feel like a neighbor talking over the fence.  LOL

I would not send the letter.   For a few reasons.

You have already made a clean break.  Why do it twice?  Why muddle it?

Like the cops say:  Anything you say can and will be held against you. 

From how you have described your situation, I highly doubt that they will agree that they have been guilty of:

communication that is disrespectful of the conditions for a safe and non-judgemental platform for both parties to talk.

  Although I do 100% understand why you might want to say this right now, unfortunately they may perceive this as blame.

I wouldn't even send the second half of the letter, it might be perceived as triangulation.

I feel like in my experience, the harder I tried the harder I failed.  Keep it simple!

It's nice that you guys are thinking of the kids and not wanting them to suffer for what is going on with the adults.   If your kids want to hang out with them then I would invite the kids over, offer to pick them up if they can't be dropped off or whatever you have to do to make it clear that it is just the kids being invited.   

If they ask "WHY" , then is the time I would tell them what you wanted to say in the first part of the letter.   Again, keep it simple.  If it was my hubby they are talking to and they ask "why" or "what is the problem" he would likely simply say something like "My wife needs a break right now, and I respect that.  And quite frankly I don't need the drama either so I'd like it if we can all just take it easy".   Or I might say something similar if they asked me.   Be aware of misperceptions so keep it as simple and non-judgmental as possible.     If they ask how long this is going to take you don't have to have an answer.  Right now it can be indefinitely.

You are going to have to see your in-laws in the future, there will be weddings and funerals etc.  I would just be courteous and polite.  Be aware of my facial expressions and body language.  Keep the conversations short.

Its so great that your husband has been supportive, and it is important for him to not feel triangulated.   It is also important for your kids and their grandparents not to feel triangulated.   So - invite away and enjoy, but I would just keep this in mind.

I hope you can stay firm and enjoy your new found freedom and peace!

Wishing you all the best

 

R

[beatricex]

hi kiwigal,
I've only read your initial post but wanted to reply before I forget my thought.  Then I will go back and read the other replies...

This sounds like a difference in values.  Something I have noticed with the borderlines in my life is they have a strong need to voice their values, and are not very accepting of others' values.  They cannot be bothered to listen to different viewpoints.

Where we hear differences, the normal person thinks "oh that's a difference, interesting" and see life in more of an observer view (because that is a key for happiness).  In contrast, I think they probably see things in absolutes, black and white, and I do believe this causes a lot of their discomfort.  Especially if like my mom, they seek to control others, and then it becomes their mission to mold you into the person they find acceptable.  It is one thing to dislike another person, but a completly different thing to make it your task to change them.  I think a lot of times, with my Mom anyway, this is where her rage gets triggered.  How dare I be different than her (perfect) image of me, because I am afterall only an extension of her, so I need to change immediately...

Something that jumped off the page, she said you're
 "living by your feelings"
and implied that's faulty, misguided, 'bad' etc.  What?  Where I come from (many years of therapy) living my true feelings is the goal!  holy crap, my BPD/NPD'd mom took those real feelings from me years ago, and I've fought really hard to get some back.  Geniune raw feelings, not dissociation.  Again, it's an error in their thinking, that they think they're always right, and assert their views as if they're fact.  That is her opinion, it is by no means universal that "living feelings" is a bad trait!  Have you ever taken the Meyer Briggs personality test?  There are literally 30 or so personailty types, none of them better or worse than the others, just different.  Personally, I am an INTJ, it is very rare for women, like less than %6 of women have this personality type.  My whole life people have pointed out I'm different.  Who cares, so what?  I'm me.  Get over it.
 
What are your thoughts when she projects this onto you?  Because borderlines are deep down afraid of their feelings.  And the immediate feeling you get?  Is it anger...or curiousity.  Just wondering because it is possible to change our thinking so that we react better, or more inline with the way we want to.  With curious detachment, for example.

So sorry you are going through this, it is crazymaking for sure.

b

[Sancho]

I think if there is zero chance of anything you say making it possible for a different type of interaction with SIL then you might like to consider these options:

Keep the distance you have managed to establish as a long term thing and enjoy your family life without the stress OR

If you decide to have limited interaction then go 'grey rock'!

I find 'grey rock' actually works for me with a very difficult BPD in my life.

[kiwigal]

I'm SO glad you pointed out where Id posted... I've been trying to find my thread and keep thinking that it's been deleted! Ha! Hello from the other side 

You are just so right, thank you. It so helps to have someone see what is obvious. They truly don't feel any sense of ownership and trying to shift it to even a 50/50, will just make it a mess. I can see that I'm trying to fix a dysfunctional relationship... and perhaps needing to accept that it's not fixable. Any "fixing" on my part engages in some measure of triangulation - which is the very thing I'm learning to avoid.

Thank you so much for helping me to see things so clearly! So very dearly appreciate the wisdom of your experience and insight.

Hi Kiwi!

I know you are from the other board, so I feel like a neighbor talking over the fence.  LOL

I would not send the letter.   For a few reasons.

You have already made a clean break.  Why do it twice?  Why muddle it?

Like the cops say:  Anything you say can and will be held against you. 

From how you have described your situation, I highly doubt that they will agree that they have been guilty of:   Although I do 100% understand why you might want to say this right now, unfortunately they may perceive this as blame.

I wouldn't even send the second half of the letter, it might be perceived as triangulation.

I feel like in my experience, the harder I tried the harder I failed.  Keep it simple!

It's nice that you guys are thinking of the kids and not wanting them to suffer for what is going on with the adults.   If your kids want to hang out with them then I would invite the kids over, offer to pick them up if they can't be dropped off or whatever you have to do to make it clear that it is just the kids being invited.   

If they ask "WHY" , then is the time I would tell them what you wanted to say in the first part of the letter.   Again, keep it simple.  If it was my hubby they are talking to and they ask "why" or "what is the problem" he would likely simply say something like "My wife needs a break right now, and I respect that.  And quite frankly I don't need the drama either so I'd like it if we can all just take it easy".   Or I might say something similar if they asked me.   Be aware of misperceptions so keep it as simple and non-judgmental as possible.     If they ask how long this is going to take you don't have to have an answer.  Right now it can be indefinitely.

You are going to have to see your in-laws in the future, there will be weddings and funerals etc.  I would just be courteous and polite.  Be aware of my facial expressions and body language.  Keep the conversations short.

Its so great that your husband has been supportive, and it is important for him to not feel triangulated.   It is also important for your kids and their grandparents not to feel triangulated.   So - invite away and enjoy, but I would just keep this in mind.

I hope you can stay firm and enjoy your new found freedom and peace!

Wishing you all the best

 

R

[kiwigal]

Oh wow... this is so eye-opening "it becomes their mission to mold you into the person they find acceptable".  That has totally been my experience. My jaw dropped to read it! How did I not know this?
This is key because we have so little in common anymore and I feel like I am offensive to their values, just by being me.

"What are your thoughts/feelings when she projects this onto you?"
Such a BRILLIANT question.
Truthfully; mostly indignation.

However, when I think about this as you say, with  curious detachment  , I feel - compassionate yet assured. Although it's toxic, I can kind of understand why she needed me to function as invisible in the family; her identity depended on it. My MIL also. When I tried to shift out of that role and into one of equality, I can make sense of why they needed to judge me and also my kids - the family depends upon my/our inferiority.

It sounds strange, but seeing it through the lens of compassion, I feel confident that the disengagement is healthy. In fact, I think really overdue.

This is perhaps truly the first time I've really deeply engaged in considering the reality of the situation, with clear eyes. I think I've been working so hard, for so long, to fix things.. to understand.. to make sense of it all, that I haven't truly grasped a reality: I can never be what they want - so its time to be free.

hi kiwigal,
I've only read your initial post but wanted to reply before I forget my thought.  Then I will go back and read the other replies...

This sounds like a difference in values.  Something I have noticed with the borderlines in my life is they have a strong need to voice their values, and are not very accepting of others' values.  They cannot be bothered to listen to different viewpoints.

Where we hear differences, the normal person thinks "oh that's a difference, interesting" and see life in more of an observer view (because that is a key for happiness).  In contrast, I think they probably see things in absolutes, black and white, and I do believe this causes a lot of their discomfort.  Especially if like my mom, they seek to control others, and then it becomes their mission to mold you into the person they find acceptable.  It is one thing to dislike another person, but a completly different thing to make it your task to change them.  I think a lot of times, with my Mom anyway, this is where her rage gets triggered.  How dare I be different than her (perfect) image of me, because I am afterall only an extension of her, so I need to change immediately...

Something that jumped off the page, she said you're
 "living by your feelings"
and implied that's faulty, misguided, 'bad' etc.  What?  Where I come from (many years of therapy) living my true feelings is the goal!  holy crap, my BPD/NPD'd mom took those real feelings from me years ago, and I've fought really hard to get some back.  Geniune raw feelings, not dissociation.  Again, it's an error in their thinking, that they think they're always right, and assert their views as if they're fact.  That is her opinion, it is by no means universal that "living feelings" is a bad trait!  Have you ever taken the Meyer Briggs personality test?  There are literally 30 or so personailty types, none of them better or worse than the others, just different.  Personally, I am an INTJ, it is very rare for women, like less than %6 of women have this personality type.  My whole life people have pointed out I'm different.  Who cares, so what?  I'm me.  Get over it.
 
What are your thoughts when she projects this onto you?  Because borderlines are deep down afraid of their feelings.  And the immediate feeling you get?  Is it anger...or curiousity.  Just wondering because it is possible to change our thinking so that we react better, or more inline with the way we want to.  With curious detachment, for example.

So sorry you are going through this, it is crazymaking for sure.

b

[kiwigal]

I think if there is zero chance of anything you say making it possible for a different type of interaction with SIL then you might like to consider these options:

Keep the distance you have managed to establish as a long term thing and enjoy your family life without the stress OR

If you decide to have limited interaction then go 'grey rock'!

I find 'grey rock' actually works for me with a very difficult BPD in my life.

This is so good! It nails it to the point  "Keep the distance you have managed to establish as a long term thing and enjoy your family life without the stress "
Thank you!