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truthdevotee
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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2021, 02:16:39 AM »

Hi FF & GaGrl

Thank you for your messages. It clarified what I needed to do as I'm still confused about old agreements and escaping the control of my pwBPD.

I did it. We woke up feeling very good this morning. I took my son to school and on the way home contacted my pwBPD by phone. I encouraged her to call her father as the call b/w him and her was cut short over the weekend. After that, I lightly said I plan to call my parents...

As expected, it didn't go well. Progressively, the deep inner pain started to erupt. As the pain intensified over a 30 minute call, she became more and more manipulative, attempting to control me with rage, victimhood, bringing up the past, etc. It became out of control... I stayed calm. I tried to encourage her to see it as a light phone call in which I will focus on OUR family. She started saying what I should and shouldn't say - e.g. don't ask about your sisters, your mother is a master manipulator, etc. I re-stated that I don't want any restrictions made on the conversational flow, what I will say and won't say, etc. However, I agreed that I'll call via Skype on my mobile phone so that they don't yet have my mobile number (my pwBPD is scared that my FOO and I will start WhatsApping as we used to do).

Her energy was so, so, so intense. I could see my own grief being triggered but I was able to stay out of it overall. Right now, just after the call, I feel clear headed, which is great progress as it indicates I'm seeing her issues where they belong - in her.

My poor 2 year old son (my pwBPD is on maternity currently) was in the background; he was fine but of course, he's receiving all that negative energy in his consciousness.

I wonder if it is worth subjecting him to it... I faced my fear, but it triggered my pwBPD's rage and then he has to experience that. This is a big reason why I have become so submissive over the years - to keep as much of a peaceful atmosphere for the children because my pwBPD can't be responsible for her emotionality (feelings = facts, therefore she can act irresponsibly and feel justified for doing so).

Now I just see a message from myBPD saying "It's sad what you are capable of doing" ... she's trying to tell me now that I have trust issues, not her.

It's sad but also quite amazing, the level of projection. And under it is all the pain that she just doesn't want to face, so I can be compassionate. But I also feel a bit sad how much of a big deal this has to be.

She says that I haven't shared with her enough on what I've learned through reading my book on mother enmeshment. I've shared very deep and vulnerable things with her actually, but she always uses this as a way to get control. "You don't care! You don't invite me to talk with coffee!"

Here are some more messages:

"That is incredibly sad and prior to any phone calls you showed me how much you disrespect me. That is breaking my heart"

So, I was clear on the following things: 1) that I'll call my parents from Skype, 2) that my intention is to focus on OUR family and 3) that I won't accept any restrictions on what I can say and not say, because it's important she trusts my intention.

I think I'll go ahead and call them today.

It's a storm - and it's likely to continue. She's scared that I'm going to call them next week as well, so I should probably be very clear in advance so I'm not flustered when she tries to control that.

It's tough as I have so many responsibilities at work and at home, that we barely have time for this drama, but it unfolds any way.

More messages:
"I am still very shocked. Also from point of view of your work. How can you open up this topic in the middle of your work?"

... open to any words of advice. I guess I need to avoid any form of caretaking - let her feel her pain and deal with it on her own. This has been my mistake in the past, trying to help her with her pain, and thereby getting drawn in and controlled.

"How come you want to give them call during your working hours?"

And these messages will be endless today... they will keep coming... I see how they're all for the purpose of control.

"This is such an irresponsibility step that doesn't show me to trust you"
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2021, 02:26:57 AM »

I replied to the barrage of messages with the following, and I think it's all I need to say/do, because I am recognizing that I can only be controlled by her and her manipulations if I believe that I am responsible for her feelings in any way. If I am responsible for her feelings, that would mean she is not an individual and I am not an individual. But I am, and she is too. Hence, as an individuated person it's OK for me to make my own choices and be clear about what they will be. The other person's response - even if she is my wife - is up to her. Is this correct thinking?

I wrote:

I care about you and love you. My intention is to call them via Skype today, and to focus on telling them all about our beautiful family.

She replied:

"Why it can't wait till some evening that we can have a chat?"


Question: should I wait and do things on her schedule (I'm certain that's what this is all about - control), or should I go ahead and call anyway?
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2021, 03:14:09 AM »

More messages from my pwBPD:

"It has been already ONE hour about the call" (my note: because it has become such a big deal for my pwBPD).

"It is crazy. I never ever want to listen about your hours not enough work. You are insane. How can you call me and say all that stuff and blame me for having little bit of a passionate voice? I don't get it. My head is not getting it. You would show how much you trust me, how much you love me, how much you respect me, how much you feel for me, how much I cost in your eyes... yo ushowed me that I am a big PLEASE READ in your eyes. Who deserves are your 3 mothers. Based on the phone call we are nowhere near of any future success"


(note: my pwBPD isn't a native speaker)

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truthdevotee
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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2021, 03:15:36 AM »

Is it best just to ignore these messages? I feel trapped...

If I go ahead and call them without conversing more about it with my pwBPD (there's no real conversation at all, anyway... it's just about me eventually submitting in the end... that's her end goal... that's why she's so destructive... until I will crash and get so exhausted and follow her will) she will blame me for not caring about her, which is absolutely not true!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 03:29:27 AM by truthdevotee » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2021, 05:22:41 AM »

I cringed a bit at the suggestion of your MC that you both should be in agreement. Not because it is wrong in general, but I think the heart of this kind of thing is that no two people can completely agree on everything and in this case, the process of working out a disagreement depends on the ability of both people to do this, to be able to tolerate the fact that no two people are alike and that autonomy and some self direction is a core aspect of their humanity. One agreement is that "I care about my spouse and want them to be who they are, not who I want to make them into".

Now, I think a marriage works when two people are in agreement about their basic values and goals, but it also requires the skills to work out disagreements and also to renegotiate agreements that don't work.

There are some big ones that I think require agreements- budget, children, sharing household tasks, work, where you live, values such as fidelity, honesty. It's not a each person do what they want situation, but I don't also think it requires complete enmeshement and with this situation- complete submission to the will of one spouse over the other.

I watched my parents do this. In order to keep the peace, my father eventually became an extension of my BPD mother and allowed her to have complete control. We kids were expected to submit as well. I thought this is what I had to do to keep the peace in relationships and did this too, and found myself to be very unhappy and resentful. That wasn't agreement. It was being a fake and being unhappy and resentful. It's not something I would ever want for a spouse but somehow this unbalance, this lack of reciprocity can happen. I don't think looking to a person with a personality disorder to give some sort of consent to you wanting to do something that is important to you will make that happen. Surely you don't want your wife to feel disrespected and unloved but by giving up your own self will, you feel disrespected and unloved.

People work out a marriage in different ways but yes, agreements over the big things are important. But some agreements are values. If a value is staying in touch with parents- that is a shared agreement but how and when to call them doesn't need to be micromanaged.

I don't think it's a bad thing to give in to preferences in order to arrive at an agreement in a marriage and we all do it a lot with things we don't feel strongly about. If I want chicken for dinner and he wants hamburgers, well I don't really care that much. We can have chicken tomorrow. I won't feel resentful. But when two people have poor boundaries contantly giving up what one person wants in order to appease the other can be an issue.

However, giving in to someone's will when it is a core value does matter. Not contacting your parents would be an easy agreement if it didn't bother you. But it does, and so it's not really an agreement on your part.








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truthdevotee
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2021, 05:46:58 AM »

I cringed a bit at the suggestion of your MC that you both should be in agreement. Not because it is wrong in general, but I think the heart of this kind of thing is that no two people can completely agree on everything and in this case, the process of working out a disagreement depends on the ability of both people to do this, to be able to tolerate the fact that no two people are alike and that autonomy and some self direction is a core aspect of their humanity. One agreement is that "I care about my spouse and want them to be who they are, not who I want to make them into".


I feel the same way... I've lost all autonomy. And "common decisions" with myBPD has basically become *her* decisions and my alignment with everything she wants. There's no space or room for my opinion. My MC encouraged this. He knew how hard it was to get her into the therapy room, and I guess his approach was designed to not trigger her to run away. He taught me empathetic and reflective listening but it never resulted in her feeling of satisfaction - of being heard. I guess he did this as I'd already established a relationship with him and he knew about my commitment to growth and the 12 Steps.


I haven't had time yet to read the rest of your message. I just feel the need to write quickly - it's a high pressure day coz pwBPD is crashing with lethargy because of her emotionality and rage. It's always the same pattern. The intense criticism and anger and rage blaming and control. I must take my son outside and I'm missing my working hours... all of this "crash" is her way of keeping control...

I'll read the rest of your message very soon.

I am avoiding any form of JADE in communicating with my pwBPD.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2021, 06:24:37 AM »

Because of the constant blame and intense criticism, it's easy to start getting sucked in.

What form of communication, if any, is relevant when she is splitting and protecting?

Is it worth expressing my point of view at all?
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2021, 06:55:28 AM »

I'm jumping ahead in Stop Walking on Eggshells,in desperate need of communication skills!

This is amazing!


Maintain your own sense of reality despite what the other person says.

Reflect the pain back to its proper owner—the person with BPD.

Express confidence that your loved one can learn to cope with their own feelings.

Offer your support. Make it clear that your loved one is the only person who can control their feelings and reactions.

 Show by your actions that there are limits to the type of behavior that you will and will not accept.

 Communicate these limits clearly and act on them consistently.


I am feeling optimistic that I'll get to the point where I can call my parents even if my partner is experiencing all her emotional experience. The barrage of blame and criticism, the endless accusations, are so intense today. But I somehow feel that with these techniques I can escape the fog.

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truthdevotee
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« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2021, 07:57:49 AM »

Name calling, threats, and creating hell at home for the children. It's sad to see.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2021, 08:28:08 AM »

I left the house to catch up with my work outside. It's the first time I've done this. It's because I see she is an individual and her feelings are her responsibility. I used to believe this, but I was not confident enough to remain loyal to my perspective in the past. Instead, I'd get trapped into caretaking and feeling responsible on a very subtle level for her feelings.

Leaving her alone with the kids. I trust her with the children, I see her heart for them. She is genuinely interested in their development, normally through the lens of the conditions I have - OCD/ADHD. She's genuinely interested in creating an environment where the likelihood of these manifestations is decreased. However, when she starts splitting, her whole ruleset and game changes; she doesn't see or hear the children's upset. However, if I'm out of the house, then her trigger is out of the house, so I guess it's more peaceful at home for the boys. Plus I get my work done.

Things have gotten as bad as they always get, if not a bit worse. She senses her loss of control. She attacked my sexual performance, told me that the house and car are HERS (her father bought them for her/us), and that the children have her surname. All this is true. I'm in a foreign country and I know little of the language. However, I must continue steadily toward the truth, and today has been a great leap. Ordinarily I would be in despair and grief due to her intensity... I'd be a sponge for her projections. Today, although it's not exactly pleasant, I'm much more level-headed.

I read a bit in the book that showed me how I need to communicate with her. It was so good to acknowledge her feelings, but very confidently and firmly state that her emotional reactions are her responsibility. She threatened to act out negative behavior. I said, that would be your choice. We need to learn to be individuals and see one another as individuals. Even in marriage, there are two individuals. She went into victimhood and attempted to manipulate me by saying I don't care about her. I told her certainly, that I recognize she doesn't see that I do, but I have a different opinion about how I feel.


For the first time, I took back my own power, and saw what is hers as hers. It got ugly. And it could get uglier, but it's a step forward.

At the very end, just as I was leaving the house, she said "so WHY do you tell me these things. KEEP YOUR LIFE TO YOURSELF. I don't want to know if you contact your parents or not."

Of course, beneath that statement is tremendous pain. It's basically her closing off her heart to me. I wouldn't put it past her to cheat with another man in the future... but who knows... it could turn out differently. It would be sad, but I know if she does that it's not my fault. Worse would be if she does it behind my back and hides it.

So I'm downstairs now, going to do some work, and call my FOO if the time feels right. I haven't been in this position for 8 years... since we first met.





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« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2021, 10:59:15 AM »


OK...I lightly skimmed the entire thread.

I cringed when I read that you "mentioned" you were going to call your parents.

It's not about your plans...it's about these "agreements". 

"Hey babe...I'm not feeling good about these agreements about contact with our families...it seems very lopsided"

or

Just call them...leave her out of it (for a while)


It appears to me that you were a matador...(unintentionally). 

You jumped in the ring and waved the red flag at the bull...and then are surprised that the bull is trying to gore you.

Ugggg...

Separate the issues of talking to your family and talking to your pwBPD about it.

Best,

FF
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2021, 11:24:10 AM »

OK...I lightly skimmed the entire thread.

I cringed when I read that you "mentioned" you were going to call your parents.

It's not about your plans...it's about these "agreements". 

"Hey babe...I'm not feeling good about these agreements about contact with our families...it seems very lopsided"

or

Just call them...leave her out of it (for a while)


It appears to me that you were a matador...(unintentionally). 

You jumped in the ring and waved the red flag at the bull...and then are surprised that the bull is trying to gore you.

Ugggg...

Separate the issues of talking to your family and talking to your pwBPD about it.

Best,

FF


Hi FF

Thanks. I suppose I've gotten to feel so guilty and controlled that this hasn't been a possible reality for me.

Now you mention it, I can do it.

Wow, I see that I've been programmed to believe this kind of action would be "wrong."  Even my old therapist advised me to align everything with her. But if he didn't recognise her BPD, I suppose he thought his advise was accurate...
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2021, 12:03:51 PM »


I have to give your old therapist the "benefit of the doubt" and assume that there was a massive miscommunication.

I simply can't imagine any therapist saying that one person in the relationship gets control over the other (what actually happened)


I can imagine that a therapist saying that you should align with your wife because that is your primary relationship and also you need to "re-align" with your other relationships so that they take there "new place".

That's very different than handing your wife control over other relationships.

How does this sound?

Best,

FF
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2021, 12:33:36 PM »

I have to give your old therapist the "benefit of the doubt" and assume that there was a massive miscommunication.

I simply can't imagine any therapist saying that one person in the relationship gets control over the other (what actually happened)


I can imagine that a therapist saying that you should align with your wife because that is your primary relationship and also you need to "re-align" with your other relationships so that they take there "new place".

That's very different than handing your wife control over other relationships.

How does this sound?

Best,

FF

Yeah, this is accurate. I fully agree. I'm sure this is where he was coming from.

On the emotional level though I feel confused.

However, it might be that the therapy didn't continue long enough and so we never got to the point of the therapist addressing the intense reactions from my pwBPD, whether I would express my opinion or thoughts. It felt "unfair." The general guidance was that I may have to be the one primarily listening for a long time until she experiences healing. But nothing about feeling controlled was addressed.

I'm reading the Stop walking on eggshells book and it's like reading a personal story, full of gold about how to go about escaping control. It's a big relief to receive all this expertise. None of this angle was addressed with the therapist.

I'm not feeling resentful. I just believed for many years that the people in my life helping me knew the solution to my problem. I see now this was my own black and white thinking. They have been tremendously supportive and have taught me a lot yet in relation to this relationship with my wife... Its only now that the answers are coming forward from the books and this forum.

I believe in karma and my personal understanding is that I've been undoing karma over the years in order to arrive at this point today
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« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2021, 05:06:17 PM »

Hello TD, having read your story, I am so sad and really feel for you in your predicament.  My brother's situation with his FOO is very similar to yours, his wife is uBPD and has systematically destroyed the bonds between him and us (our mother and myself, our father is deceased).  His wife's fear of abandonment stemming from her own childhood trauma has created so many dramas and scenes and ensured that he no longer regards his FOO with any real affection or love. Like you, he has all but given up trying to maintain normal family relationships and also his good friendships.  She has removed those who love him the most from his life. Her manipulation and control of him is phenomenal.  He is so afraid of her as are their children and he has told me on a rare occasion that he has to do whatever she demands so that he can keep his children in a safe place. 

The agony of losing my brother in this way is awful, but the pain of seeing him lose himself is even worse. Its hard to understand how a grown man can agree to sever the primal bond with his own family in order to keep his wife happy. I could not imagine doing that to my husband who loves and respects his family very much - I know he would not tolerate that for one minute.

However, truthdevotee you are in a much better situation as you are now aware of the BPD problem.  This knowledge will change the dynamic as you will no longer be blamed and shamed into taking responsibility for all of her issues.  Read and learn as much as you can, this will make you stronger and stronger. 

My brother is still in denial that his wife has a problem and he turns himself inside out to please and appease her
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« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2021, 05:25:54 PM »

Something to be aware of is that if you always try to soothe her when she’s upset, she will not have the opportunity to learn self soothing skills.

Like the distinction Notwendy made, there are choices in relationships where both partners need to be in agreement, such as fidelity, financial issues, childrearing, etc. Calling family members is NOT an issue that needs consensus. That is something that is personal and you DO NOT need her permission to do so.

I sense that you’ve been appeasing her for so long that you’d forgotten that you have rights as an individual.

How she copes with this information is up to her. It isn’t your responsibility to fix it for her. If you try to do that, she will never learn how to center herself and you will be further down the hole of appeasement.




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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2021, 05:48:26 PM »

The agony of losing my brother in this way is awful, but the pain of seeing him lose himself is even worse. Its hard to understand how a grown man can agree to sever the primal bond with his own family in order to keep his wife happy. I could not imagine doing that to my husband who loves and respects his family very much - I know he would not tolerate that for one minute.



This one took me by surprise. I regarded my father as my only parent. I naively jumped on that Karpman triangle. He was in his elder years and it was difficult to see how my mother was treating him. This was before I understood the relationship dynamics.

BPD mom was angry at me, took victim perspective. My father "rescued" her. In her world one is either on her side or not her side. I was not on her side and became the persecutor in the triangle.

I continued to call my father, up until the time he passed away, but with her listening in on the home extension. Sometimes he would pick up the phone first and we'd talk for a few minutes, she'd pick up and he would hang up. She read every email I sent him.

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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2021, 12:17:10 AM »

Hello TD, having read your story, I am so sad and really feel for you in your predicament.  My brother's situation with his FOO is very similar to yours, his wife is uBPD and has systematically destroyed the bonds between him and us (our mother and myself, our father is deceased).  His wife's fear of abandonment stemming from her own childhood trauma has created so many dramas and scenes and ensured that he no longer regards his FOO with any real affection or love. Like you, he has all but given up trying to maintain normal family relationships and also his good friendships.  She has removed those who love him the most from his life. Her manipulation and control of him is phenomenal.  He is so afraid of her as are their children and he has told me on a rare occasion that he has to do whatever she demands so that he can keep his children in a safe place.  

The agony of losing my brother in this way is awful, but the pain of seeing him lose himself is even worse. Its hard to understand how a grown man can agree to sever the primal bond with his own family in order to keep his wife happy. I could not imagine doing that to my husband who loves and respects his family very much - I know he would not tolerate that for one minute.

However, truthdevotee you are in a much better situation as you are now aware of the BPD problem.  This knowledge will change the dynamic as you will no longer be blamed and shamed into taking responsibility for all of her issues.  Read and learn as much as you can, this will make you stronger and stronger.  

My brother is still in denial that his wife has a problem and he turns himself inside out to please and appease her


Dear Four Winds

Thank you for reading this long thread, and for sharing. Your share helps me to see what is happening with more clarity. It's been a tremendously sad situation. I'm sure my sisters and mother (and father, but he's generally very private) have been in a lot of pain about this.

Some part of me desires to tell them what's been happening. The truth sets people free. Over the years, I have written emails to them, loving but firm, because my wife desired me to tell them how she has changed my life for the better. The emails have felt forced and I'm sure my family felt them to be that way. My wife wanted me to stand up to my FOO, as if they were doing something wrong by being warm and loving. I wrote things that didn't come from ME; they were written for my wife, as a way for me to try to prove to her that I love her and that I'm changing. All of this I did ultimately for the children... my goal has been a peaceful and loving home... now I see how there is no peace regardless, since anything can serve to trigger my wife's BPD. And so I've lost a lot of freedom and autonomy... but there's still a thread and a hope that is very thin and has gotten damaged due to my emails (never unloving emails, just written to glorify my pwBPD and tell my FOO to not treat me like a child in response to my wife's belief that I'm a mamas boy) and especially thin due to my lack of contact. But I think it's healable...

I'm certain they intuit her general control levels, but they might not know the story from my perspective. But my pwBPD always asks about every detail after any phone calls I have and I struggle to lie, so I always tell all. The only way to tell them this detail about my wife's BPD would be to do it secretly and not reveal it.

For now, I'll just take small steps - today I'll call my parents.

I realize also that this is a journey related to my FOO... I was never modelled a healthy emotional atmosphere, and I don't know my FOO from the perspective of an adult. I sense that as I'm changing in response to my pwBPD, I'm changing also in relation to my FOO. Since we are never in contact, I don't know how that will look yet... if there really will be / is a change or not... only time will tell. I just feel this urge to especially make contact more frequently with my parents; they're not getting younger and time might be short.

I am extremely grateful that the problem has been identified and I'm in this place and reading these books that provide the precise answer.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 12:24:59 AM by truthdevotee » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2021, 12:21:07 AM »

Something to be aware of is that if you always try to soothe her when she’s upset, she will not have the opportunity to learn self soothing skills.

Like the distinction Notwendy made, there are choices in relationships where both partners need to be in agreement, such as fidelity, financial issues, childrearing, etc. Calling family members is NOT an issue that needs consensus. That is something that is personal and you DO NOT need her permission to do so.

I sense that you’ve been appeasing her for so long that you’d forgotten that you have rights as an individual.

How she copes with this information is up to her. It isn’t your responsibility to fix it for her. If you try to do that, she will never learn how to center herself and you will be further down the hole of appeasement.



Hi Cat Familiar,

Thank you... this is life changing. I'll follow the guidance. By absorbing all this information so quickly I can feel myself getting stronger and I can feel that invisible enmeshment falling away. I am an individual and she is an individual.
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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2021, 05:30:24 AM »

In her world one is either on her side or not her side.

This is so true... this is my pwBPD's world. "who's side are you on?" has been one of her primary questions over the years.

I called my FOO - talked to my mum (dad was unavailable). It was a big step. I've regained power through this one action. I called during working hours. My pwBPD will later ask me if I called. And will come many questions about the content of the phone call. I'm open to any guidance about how to deal with the questions. My usual approach is just to answer honestly. Since my mum has recently been diagnosed with cardiomyopathy (heart failure), we spoke a lot about her challenges; my pwBPD won't like this and it will likely trigger her rage.


I'm very very very happy to have made this step. My goal now is at least one call per week to my parents. Slowly also, picking up the phone and calling sisters... slowly regaining an individual life back. One of the longer term goals I have is using Skype video connecting my boys with their cousins. This is difficult because my pwBPD disallows it, unless she's on video too, which she rarely wants to be.

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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2021, 05:32:08 AM »

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH for your support, experience, strength and hope.

1 week ago I joined this forum and for the first time for at least 6 years, I made an independent decision without my pwBPD's permission. It is an extremely significant milestone in my life. It is a step forward to greater self-esteem and happiness, as well as being a role model for the boys.

Very grateful to you all
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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2021, 06:57:56 AM »

truthdevotee well done, its a first step towards regaining some form of normality.  I suspect your FOO are more aware of your wife's issues than you think.  But what they will struggle to understand is your role in enabling her.  I knew from early on that my SIL was the problem, what I didnt get was how easily she was able to persuade my brother into believing her distorted version of reality and turning on his own FOO making us into the enemy.  Why FOOs end up being targeted like this seems to be a facet of this illness.  This heartbreaking situation happens in so many cases, you can see why BPD/NPD has been referred to as a "cookie cutter disease".  We are all playing a part in the same movie, just with different actors.
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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2021, 07:51:03 AM »

One thing to consider is that- you don't have to disclose all details of a conversation you have with your family.

You are allowed to have a one on one relationship with another person. Now, marriage *IMHO has some restrictions/boundaries about that obviously, but you can have a discussion with a family member and have it be just between the two of you. There are work relationships where people discuss work related things. Some jobs, like medicine, require that work related information be kept confidential. A medical worker would not come home and discuss every detail about their patients with a spouse, a teacher doesn't disclose personal information about a student, a priest would not reveal confession discussions. There are lots of examples.

You and your wife are married but you are still two individual people. Your lives are conjoined in many ways. You have boundaries on outside relationships in terms of- you should not date anyone else or have private intimate relationships with others- but you can still love your parents and your siblings. Marriage doesn't negate that.

Don't validate what is not reasonable to you. What do you think is an appropriate response to learning that a spouse's mother is struggling with a health problem? I don't think rage would be your choice. However, I don't think hiding a medical issue in a parent is good as it is something you would want to be kept informed about.  If you don't feel you have the emotional strength to disclose the condition immediately, don't, but sooner or later, it's probably best to tell her. Her rage is hers to deal with. However, you don't need to disclose every detail of the conversation.

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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2021, 05:33:07 AM »

truthdevotee well done, its a first step towards regaining some form of normality.  I suspect your FOO are more aware of your wife's issues than you think.  But what they will struggle to understand is your role in enabling her.  I knew from early on that my SIL was the problem, what I didnt get was how easily she was able to persuade my brother into believing her distorted version of reality and turning on his own FOO making us into the enemy.  Why FOOs end up being targeted like this seems to be a facet of this illness.  This heartbreaking situation happens in so many cases, you can see why BPD/NPD has been referred to as a "cookie cutter disease".  We are all playing a part in the same movie, just with different actors.

Hi Four Winds, thanks for your support.
It's amazing how it's a common pattern with FOO's.
I keep repeating it, but over and over again I have the same feeling - coming to this forum and realizing there is a label for these patterns and that my situation hasn't been unique is truly amazing.

For a long time I didn't know the problem. Having found it, all the perfect solutions are coming into place. It makes sense what Albert Einstein said:

“If I had an hour to solve a problem I'd spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and five minutes thinking about solutions.”


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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2021, 05:39:13 AM »

One thing to consider is that- you don't have to disclose all details of a conversation you have with your family.

You are allowed to have a one on one relationship with another person. Now, marriage *IMHO has some restrictions/boundaries about that obviously, but you can have a discussion with a family member and have it be just between the two of you. There are work relationships where people discuss work related things. Some jobs, like medicine, require that work related information be kept confidential. A medical worker would not come home and discuss every detail about their patients with a spouse, a teacher doesn't disclose personal information about a student, a priest would not reveal confession discussions. There are lots of examples.

You and your wife are married but you are still two individual people. Your lives are conjoined in many ways. You have boundaries on outside relationships in terms of- you should not date anyone else or have private intimate relationships with others- but you can still love your parents and your siblings. Marriage doesn't negate that.

Don't validate what is not reasonable to you. What do you think is an appropriate response to learning that a spouse's mother is struggling with a health problem? I don't think rage would be your choice. However, I don't think hiding a medical issue in a parent is good as it is something you would want to be kept informed about.  If you don't feel you have the emotional strength to disclose the condition immediately, don't, but sooner or later, it's probably best to tell her. Her rage is hers to deal with. However, you don't need to disclose every detail of the conversation.

Thanks Notwendy. I really appreciate the time you take to get into the shades of grey and intricacies for me. I think the primary issue - my black and white thinking - underlying fear and guilt that needed healing... as well as perhaps other factors that I'm not aware of... I think the primary issue has been my self-doubt about my own sense-making. I'm in my 30s now and only learning what self-confidence means. I've been so easily pushed around and unsure of how things are supposed to be, and I've also desired so deeply to always do the right thing. But that's the problem - the right thing defined by my pwBPD isn't the right thing...

Appreciate being in this safe place to learn what the real right thing is and to receive this guidance about how things are multi-factorial and shades of grey and how to navigate this marriage. I guess this is like an absence of natural left-brained thinking strength (ADHD / OCD relate to the development and struggle with executive functions). Bit by bit I can become more self-confident. Grateful for all the help

It's a relief to know that I don't have to reveal every single detail that I discuss with my FOO. Hope that my pwBPD won't push me endlessly for details.
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« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2021, 07:32:53 AM »

its quite possible that she will push you endlessly for information and details, but only if you allow this to happen.  I know its easier said than done, but once you start to appreciate you are a separate human being with your own individual personal thoughts and feelings - and that she does not own you as her co-dependent,  perhaps this can help you to stand your ground a bit more easily.

Coming to this site could be regarded as a reality check.  As close family members have been banished and are therefore not available to support you, maybe we, the members here are the next best thing...
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« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2021, 07:55:37 AM »

She will likely do what she's accustomed to doing- which is to push you for details.

I agree with Four Winds- she does not own you. You can decide what to disclose. Your wife wasn't there. She doesn't know what was said or not said.
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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2021, 02:14:14 AM »

OK... so it happened... it came up in conversation and I let my pwBDP know that I called my parents 3 times over the past 10 days. Explosion. I can see the deep grief, but it's hardened by the rageful exterior.

For about 10 minutes I fell into circular argumentation. Pointless endeavor. It seems the best thing to do now is limit all communication and ensure I remain with as little anxiety as possible, and help the children have a good day. I get really anxious around her rage. Need to do deep breathing.

And it's all the same stuff I've heard 10,000 times before; attacks for being enmeshed, blame for not discussing it with her beforehand, rage that "you didn't tell me" until after 10 days, making me a perpetrator and trying to make me feel regret that she thought I was on the right path but now I've "destroyed" everything, that I betrayed her, that I don't care about this family, etc.

At one point I reacted perhaps too strongly when setting a limit. I figure it's best to remain as calm and polite as possible when limit setting? She criticized me for not having handled a certain task yesterday, and I reacted with my own anger as the boundary came up. I reminded myself this is not about controlling her behavior but instead it's about simply calmly stating my own limits. The thing is, she will reflect 10x my tone, so if I remind her of a limit with anger, she resists the limit with 10x more anger. So it's much better for me to be extremely calm and quiet when reminding about a limit, and reminding the consequence (the action I will take) if the limit isn't respected. In response to my angry limit about not criticizing me about the task yesterday, she replied with "you *&%^." This also crossed my other limit about no name calling. I reminded her that I'll leave the house for a week if it happens again. But yeah, perhaps the "you *%&$" wouldn't have occurred if I'd reminded her of the first limit more gently.

I'm recording our conversations in case any evidence is needed in the future.




« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 02:26:46 AM by truthdevotee » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2021, 02:47:53 AM »

I just left the house. The name calling continues. I'm so anxious. My boys are with her and I trust she'll look after them. The boys are disassociated through hyperactivity. I told them I'm going to buy them something nice from the shop.

So here's one thing I want to mention. Yesterday she told me that she told her mum that we can go to their house on the weekend. The honest reaction inside me was anger. The anger has two components. Firstly the history of this horrible situation with my own family despite over the years continuing to love and be open to her family caused anger in me. This came up as a deep unconscious response. Secondly a day or two before I expressed that it's genuinely not a good time this weekend as we have a lot to do in preparation for a vacation starting the following weekend. My anger didn't get out of hand and I quickly adjusted my response as I knew I don't want to create the same negative conditions that she created for me, towards her family of origin. She used the fact that she noticed my anger in that situation to control me and manipulate me a few minutes ago just before I left the house.

My main trouble is that I get so anxious around her when she is angry, so perhaps I'm just not leaving the house soon enough. My own anxiety effects my tone and makes it more likely to make a mistake. For example, when she brought up the situation with regard to the anger she saw in my reaction to the weekend visit to her family of origin, I said she's over exaggerating my response to that situation. There was a small lie in that because its true i was angry even though I don't express it so outwardly as she does. A minute later I went to her and admitted my anger in that situation. I think this might be OCD from my side (fear of being dishonest) but I felt more integrity after doing that. Of course it did nothing to effect my partner's BDP symptoms

Now I'm at a choice point. She changed my name on her phone to an insult name calling. I said I'll leave the house as I told her I would. So... I have to actually go through with it or not... She's sending tons of messages right now which I won't reply to

[27/02, 09:31] Honey: By your action of ignoring me you are setting the tone
[27/02, 09:34] Honey: I can see. It is a choice of acknowledging of someone perspective.
[27/02, 09:35] Honey: This is the highest principle of marriage
[27/02, 09:36] Honey: Remember if you ignore me I can't continue to respect you.
[27/02, 09:38] Honey: You set the tone of ignorance then don't expect to be respected.
[27/02, 09:39] Honey: I tried to save us from this.
[27/02, 09:40] Honey: We were on the right path.
[27/02, 09:42] Honey: It's broken
[27/02, 09:42] Honey: It's sad for the all effort made
[27/02, 09:43] Honey: I can't love you if you ignore me.
[27/02, 09:44] Honey: It's a big lesson
[27/02, 09:44] Honey: I can't marry you
[27/02, 09:48] Honey:
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« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2021, 02:48:30 AM »

Oops wrong button
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