Anyone available to listen... struggling tonight

[formflier]

 Or, "I think you (kells76) are doing/feeling this because of X, Y, and Z".

Ugg...so to be clear, you freeze up or have issues when he starts doing surgery on the "why" behind your feelings?

And...I'm picking up the vibe that he likes wildly speculating about those feelings/reasons and is often waaaaaaay off the mark from anything you have ever considered.  Am I close?

Uggg...(come on..everyone give us an uggg...FF gets triggered by this too)


So...I'm guessing it is not "Gosh Kells...I've never thought of it that way, do you have insight into where those feelings come from?"

-Repeating some "tools" phrases followed by "but"; and

ahh...the lovely but...or the stinky butt, depending on how you see it.

I have made a deliberate effort for about a year now to get rid of "but" and usually substitute "and also".

You have to play with it and see if it fits.  Usually you will find that "and also" helps get away from dichotomous thinking  "instead of 1 or 2"  it can be "1 and 2"

Yep..I agree with 1 and also believe that 2 is true.

instead of

Yep..1 is the best thing..but...you 2 is great.  (not the best example)

-Analyzing why I (kells76) am feeling/doing what I feel/do.

Worth a    because if my assumption is right, a lot of the freeze comes from this.  It does for me...

OK, so, moving the tone of the conversation away from "kells76 telling DH what needs to be done" and towards "how can we together accomplish our goal" -- is that close to what you're thinking?

Yes...tone and "point of view".  

Kells "telling" is an implicit message (or perhaps explicit) of Kells being in charge and knowing better...having the power (etc etc etc).

Kells and hubby "accomplishing together" is a team thing...it got done, let's high 5 and move along.

"meeting a goal" or "wrapping things up" or "getting a plan" could be close.

Maybe...

You know the "wrap things up" could morph into "wrap things up quickly".

As in "Hey hubby, would you like to wrap this up quickly and we agree to accomplish x (call school counselor and verify paper received...as example) by end of day tomorrow?

hubby: (relieved that a  door is open to avoid a long conversation).. "Oh sure..let's do that"

Kells:  "Ok great...is your schedule open to do that tomorrow?"

Hubby:  (starts to ramp up because he realizes...)  Oh crap...zooms all day and that project is due. (you see the temp rising)

Kells:  "my afternoon is open, does it help us if I call?"

Hubby: "oh yes babe..and that will give me time to massage you for hours..."  

(Ok, you get the vibe.  Listen..I think you still kinda need to overfunction and drive this ship...keep the momentum going on "issues".  But...I think you need to break things into much smaller pieces, smaller convos.  So don't focus on that you have to eat the elephant..just take a bite..then another..then...)

That might take some groundwork. Are you thinking the options are "talk about X or kells76 does X", or "talk about X or DH does X"? Could you share whom you envision doing the "agreeing to do a and b"?

I think I kinda did that above, but clarify if you are missing out on my "vision".

I think that has some potential down the road... I think we first need to get "having a non-activated conversation about the kids" down and then it could help to have ground rules like that -- where we figure out OK, do we want to just talk? Or is there a decision that needs to be made? Right now those are really mixed up and both are activating/escalating.

One way is to have smaller...successful conversations.  Declare victory then move on.

I have a sense some of these get too big...to many things swirling around.  (any of that sound right?)

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Again, caveat is that I'm pretty shut down and am trying to reconstruct the content of DH's "monologues". I could be off.

Ugg...so to be clear, you freeze up or have issues when he starts doing surgery on the "why" behind your feelings?

Yes.

And...I'm picking up the vibe that he likes wildly speculating about those feelings/reasons and is often waaaaaaay off the mark from anything you have ever considered.  Am I close?

No, so, interestingly, it's not that he's inaccurate that's the problem... it's the pivot from "kells76 raising an issue about DH" to "let's make this about kells76's issues" that is the problem for me. For example, I'm working through FOO issues and in many ways I relate to SD12. DH brought that up during our blowup. Not inaccurate, but the feeling is "why can't we talk about what I brought up... why do you switch over to something accurate but not timely".

...

So...I'm guessing it is not "Gosh Kells...I've never thought of it that way, do you have insight into where those feelings come from?"

Yes, my sense is that he does not ask me "what do you think".

[formflier]

Oh...that's different.


So you want to talk about a step child situation (and perhaps it's timely or pressing) and he deflects/changes to "kells your r/s with your family is obviously influencing your judgment..."

Is that even close?

Hmmmm

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Kells, I tend to overfunction in the relationship area, and also think our FOO influences our relationship choices in many ways ( good and not so good).

Even as a teen I was thinking about how to not be like my BPD mother and to not have the issues I observed between my parents be an issue in my own marriage when I was married one day. So I was pretty shocked when some similar dynamics happened- not as severe as with my parents but difficult nonetheless. Now that I understand the influence of our FOO's on our relationship skills, I see how these situations could have happened.

I was the one working more to "fix things". My H on the other hand had no interest in that kind of thing. Compared to my family, his looked ideal and mine was obviously dysfunctional so it was assumed that the issues were my concern.
.
Then I came accross the idea that we match our partners in our level of emotional skills, boundaries- a term the book called differentiation. ( I have mentioned it before) and then the statement that really got my attention was "each partner thinks they are the more differentiated one". Wow, my H also thought he was "more together" than I am ( and I bought into that having been raised with a BPD mother) and from my point of view, there were issues that my H could not see in himself but I could see them.

So what did we match with in our FOO's?  It was really hard to see this. His mother seemed to be a saint. But while his family was more functional than my family, if I took a closer look- the issue in DH's family was co-dependency. MIL overfunctioned, and this overfunctioning was controlling. Communication skills were poor. In my FOO, my father overfunctioned.

I guess the point here is that, one doesn't need to have a raging, dysregulated BPD parent to have some family dysfunction and one doesn't have to have a BPD spouse to have marital issues to work on. Probably all families have some. But if your H is making a point of your FOO issues- well he probably has some too - maybe not the same ones but something predisposed him to choosing his first wife and something attracted you and he together. This isn't a bad thing- you two have a lot of good together. But you are struggling with something in the marriage. I don't look at FOO's in order to blame but to find some clues to the dysfunction - as a way to help work with it- as working on those might also benefit the marriage.

The good news is that if only one person is interested doing this kind of work- one person can have an impact. You can work on your part, work on your own FOO issues and while one can not change another person directly, it can change the dynamics between you two. I think it still comes down to some self care. If FOO issues are arising for you ( and they can during some stages of parenthood) then some individual counseling might help. It's not about the marriage, or the girls but doing something for YOU and that can also indirectly help the other issues.

It might also be that you are the best person to be involved with the girls at their age, since you too are female. Your H may feel out of his league being that he didn't go through the adolescence they are going through. Discussing things like dating, crushes, periods, clothes shopping- he might not feel he can relate to that much. It might be that you will be carrying that part of the parenting at this stage because you can relate to it better. But take some time to take care of you too Kells.

[GaGrl]

Kells, how often do you experience this "zoning out"? It sounds scary, and you are aware enough that it happens that you can't reconstruct what your DH has said. It sounds like a mini-dissociation. Is there anything specific that triggers this, or do you think it is a more general shutdown?

Is it worth making this a topic for individual therapy?

[formflier]

It might also be that you are the best person to be involved with the girls at their age, since you too are female. Your H may feel out of his league being that he didn't go through the adolescence they are going through. Discussing things like dating, crushes, periods, clothes shopping- he might not feel he can relate to that much. 

So...I've used the term "overfunctioning" in this post and the likely wisest course at this point is to acknowledge that there is "a strong possibility" that you are in fact "overfunctioning" or "stepping outside approrpriate boundaries".  (very different than saying you actually are doing it)

So...from there I think that "if you are going to make a mistake" in the "functioning" "underfunctioning" "overfunctioning" area...I would lean into "over function" (until we know "for sure" that you have way over done it)

Here is my reason (and I would invite others to comment)...we know there are odd dynamics for these kids and if you look at the comment I quoted, I think it sums up my thinking.

Plus...knowing your story as I do, it appears you are dragging them (all involved) towards something healthier.

Bottom line:  Something to keep an eye on, but when not sure "lean in" to what you have been doing so far.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

You and H also do something in your dialog example that reminds me of this thing called switchtracking. One person gives feedback to another person. The receiver then switches to another topic.

A lot of people do this.

It's hard to receive feedback, and even harder when it's a level 10 red zone topic.

You give feedback with strong emotion: "I'm not sure you're "here" when we talk about the kids""

And he matches that intensity with his own topic, "I bought the book like you asked" (or whatever new thing he introduces)

He just switchtracked.

If you're like me, you can switchtrack on yourself  

Catching it is a skill.

I had this happen with H the other night when, 5 min before dinner was going to be ready, he got a text from SD23 and said, "I'm going to talk to SD23 for 5 min."

After 15 min, still talking to her, I pointed to the food and did a cartwheel and some backflips with my face.

30 min later, he's still talking to her, so I served myself and ate alone.

H wrapped up his call. I was low boil annoyed. He was low boil defensive. We were civil and a bit short with each other, surface level fine but there was tension.

H: "Look, I can tell you're annoyed at me." (bid)
Me: "I was annoyed because you said it was going to be 5 min, and we were about to eat." (track 1)

H: "I feel like if it was SD26 you wouldn't be annoyed." (trackswitch)
Me: "I'm annoyed because you said it was going to be 5 min and it was 30. Food was ready" (track 1)
H: "I don't have a long commute anymore and that's when I talked to SD23, because I know you don't like me talking to her." (trackswitch)
Me: "It doesn't matter who calls 5 min before dinner. If it goes on for 30 min and food is ready, I'm going to be annoyed." (track 1)
H: "You're telling me that you would be annoyed if it was S26." (trackswitch)
Me: "What I said. My annoyance is about waiting. I was at a 3, and went down to a 1, now I'm at a 2 because I know why I'm annoyed and it's not because who called, it's because I had to wait. (track 1)

Then we walked the dog and when we got back to the house he said, "I didn't realize it was 30 min. I lost track of time and I'm sorry."

You know my stuff with H and SD23. We could've had a much bigger fight if I engaged his trackswitch (with drama triangle dragged in).

Trackswitching feels like invalidation so it can start an emotional snowball.

In your example, I wonder if you have these raw feelings (lonely --> angry) and they are uncomfortable so get shunted to the side (while still simmering). You move quickly to issues --> solutions. Except these issues are tangled together and both of you are trackswitching to a degree that it's hard to stay on track with one thing. This compounds the lonely --> angry feelings because you're trying to communicate and somehow that's making you feel less close.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

LNL

I love the way you organize things!  I had always described "trackswitching" as "a swirl of conversations"

Guess what.. I like to pick a topic/issue...deal with it and move on.

My pwBPD likes to  deal with the 1 that is on the table, if it is about to be solved...add a distraction...about to solve that...add a distraction (wash rinse repeat), and then complain nothing ever gets solved...

I'm going to replace "the swirl" with "trackswitching".


Anyway...LNL, why can he not say "Hey babe...I'm about to eat, let me call you after dinner." ?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Oh...that's different.

So you want to talk about a step child situation (and perhaps it's timely or pressing) and he deflects/changes to "kells your r/s with your family is obviously influencing your judgment..."

Is that even close?

I think that is close. It's not that quick of a "switch". Usually there are a couple rounds of discussing the tangible issue at hand (sending the email, trading a day, etc) before it escalates to "switching", if it goes there. So it's not an instantaneous deflection. We would have to reach the level of "kells76 saying it is painful to watch the interaction with SD12 / saying we should do a better job of validating SD12 / etc" (i.e., related but more meta level stuff) before DH would deflect.

My sense of the deflection is that DH sees it as valid. He is not wrong that I bring experiences from my FOO to the table, and how things went with them influence how I see things going with the kids. We have talked through, a couple times in counseling, situations where I have or could have "overrelated" to the kids -- i.e., I'm helping both the kids with math this year, and I find myself feeling resentful at their mom. My feeling is "she has all this time with them, why can't she bother taking better care of them". I've talked through that in counseling with DH there -- trying to figure out "am I volunteering to help with math because the kids need it, or am I solving an internal need I have". The internal need being -- I remember being a kid and my mom, while physically around, wasn't very emotionally present. So, by going above and beyond by helping SD14 and SD12, is it for them, or is it for me?

I think that "if you are going to make a mistake" in the "functioning" "underfunctioning" "overfunctioning" area...I would lean into "over function" (until we know "for sure" that you have way over done it)

That's the tightrope -- how can I balance "yes, it is true that the kids need help with math" with "maybe I am trying to fix something for me by helping them". "Underfunctioning" might look like "not my kids, not my job, the kids need to fail so they can see their mom for who she is". Waaaaay overfunctioning might be... IDK, volunteering to help with all their homework, not just one subject.

Anyway, to shorten things, DH has seen me work through "am I just projecting myself into situations involving the kids / overidentifying with the kids". So, he may believe that it is fair and pertinent to remind me / bring up that if it's painful for me to watch how he interacts with SD12, then I'm overidentifying with the kids, and I need to unenmesh and let him and SD12 have an independent relationship (for example).

That would be the short story of why he may deflect -- that he doesn't see it as a deflection/derailment. That he sees it as "if only kells76 knew or could be shown that she is overidentifying with the kids, she would back off and not be in pain, and things would be fine/go better". A possibility.

[kells76]

how often do you experience this "zoning out"? It sounds scary, and you are aware enough that it happens that you can't reconstruct what your DH has said. It sounds like a mini-dissociation. Is there anything specific that triggers this, or do you think it is a more general shutdown?

A couple times a year, and usually only with DH (i.e. in the closest relationship). I am aware enough in it to know that I am losing my verbal capacity and that I can't really track with what he's saying. It's typically when he escalates to monologuing -- where it's not a back and forth dialogue any more, but him talking for a long time.

It can also happen if I feel that I am in an "impossible situation" with him. For example, sometimes if I'm feeling afraid but we need to talk about something, I say "I'm not sure how you're going to take this" or "I don't know how you're going to react to what I have to say" or something like that. Depending on what space he's in, he sometimes says "Then you'll have to find out" or "you know you don't have control over my reactions" etc. I think he is coming from a place where he doesn't want to feel controlled or like he is "required" to respond in a certain way.

For me, I experience it as "DH knows how he will probably react, but he's not telling me." That is an impossible situation for me -- if I talk, it's completely unpredictable what will happen -- he might blow up, or he might be very validating. I don't know. But he knows -- and he's not telling me.

I typically break down when that happens due to struggling with feeling both like I would like him to help me and like I need to escape from him. There is no coherent way (is my experience) to deal with that unpredictability/not knowing. He could be very helpful and calm, or he might be the source of more invalidation. He isn't hurting me emotionally, but he might.

Those are the types of situations where it happens. It is almost 100% with DH and nobody else, and the situations usually involve something that is "impossible to resolve".

I told him last time he said "you will just have to find out" that that was cruel and to not say that again.

Editing to add -- not sure if I have brought this up here, but my mom has C-PTSD from early childhood abuse. So I think there is something generational happening.

[kells76]

It might also be that you are the best person to be involved with the girls at their age, since you too are female. Your H may feel out of his league being that he didn't go through the adolescence they are going through. Discussing things like dating, crushes, periods, clothes shopping- he might not feel he can relate to that much. It might be that you will be carrying that part of the parenting at this stage because you can relate to it better.

I can see that that's part of what's going on -- I remember back when SD14 (wow, now SD15!) was ~12 or so, I did WAY more of the "tucking in at night" type stuff than DH. Now, she is much more connected with him, and opens up to him much more than to me, which I completely support.

I struggle with dissecting out how much of SD12's pulling away from DH is adolescence versus a DH skills deficit. SD12 and I are fairly close -- I try to be super validating so that she can just open up and talk, and that is pretty successful. It is painful to remember that she and DH used to be closer, and part of me would truly be ok if she hated me if that meant she could have that closeness back with DH, if that makes sense. It's hard to accept that this is part of SD12's "story" right now -- that she just isn't that close to DH. I almost feel guilty that she is so close to me, and I try to find ways for DH to share more with her. It is true that a lot of what she opens up about is typical 12 year old girl stuff -- friend drama, online videos, new makeup, etc.

I guess I have to be patient to see how much of these fluctuating adult/child "pairings" are "how it is forever" versus "a chapter in the story".

[kells76]

Trackswitching feels like invalidation so it can start an emotional snowball.

In your example, I wonder if you have these raw feelings (lonely --> angry) and they are uncomfortable so get shunted to the side (while still simmering). You move quickly to issues --> solutions. Except these issues are tangled together and both of you are trackswitching to a degree that it's hard to stay on track with one thing. This compounds the lonely --> angry feelings because you're trying to communicate and somehow that's making you feel less close.

Thoughts?

Yes, it does feel incredibly invalidating to me. It comes across to me as "I hear you discussing how you feel, but that's not important. What's REALLY important is how I feel, and I can't wait until you're done to insert myself."

I'll be back for more later; have to wrap up for now. Just wanted to get that out there.

[formflier]

Usually there are a couple rounds of discussing the tangible issue at hand (sending the email, trading a day, etc) before it escalates to "switching", if it goes there. So it's not an instantaneous deflection. 

That confirms what I suspected...so I'm going to stick with my advice of trying to "break it into bite size pieces" and quickly try to give a pathway to "no more discussion..we are done..we will accomplish X"

Even though you know there might be some more convo about "how" to accomplish X (who sends who calls)...

Basically...if you can add in more "victories" where you "come together"...do you think the switching thing would get better?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

if you can add in more "victories" where you "come together"...do you think the switching thing would get better?

Possibly... I can envision a scenario where we get more experiences of efficiently (and with low intensity) handling kid-related issues: sticking to solving the logistics, wrapping it up, "accomplishing" the short, defined goals (i.e., "we need to email about the schedule change, OK I'll do it by 5pm tomorrow, sounds good, want me to review it before you send it, sure I will review it by 4pm"). Like, if we can keep the footprint pretty small on these things and have multiple successful executions, then yeah, I think that would short circuit out the "derailing".

I'm thinking the derailing/sidetracking happens to get our attention, and it may not be conscious, but a manifestation of old buried stuff surfacing. Something needs work, and the weak spot where it is able to raise its head is... related to the kids.

[livednlearned]

Yes, it does feel incredibly invalidating to me. It comes across to me as "I hear you discussing how you feel, but that's not important. What's REALLY important is how I feel, and I can't wait until you're done to insert myself."

I wonder if there's a mixed message in how this is being conveyed? You want to discuss how you feel ... and yet, if I'm following the dialog accurately ... it's attached to a complaint about DH. And when DH tries to focus on how you feel, you say it's not him, it's you. But then that's followed by telling him what he does wrong ... ?

First though, when I re-read your dialog, what stands out is how much you two care about each another. You're both clearly paddling in the same boat.

So looking at the dialog closely (where the feelings are made explicit, in particular)

Kells: (shut down)
DH: have I done something
Kells: I feel like we can't talk about the kids in a way where you are "there" in the conversation . I feel lonely because while I can talk about stuff (here) and do, I want to be able to talk to YOU about stuff. I feel resentful and angry that it feels like we can't talk about the kids.
DH: how long have you felt like that
Kells: I don't know, but a while
DH: Let's set a time to talk about stuff
Kells: We've done that before. The issue for me isn't when we talk but how we talk.
DH: with your group [the message boards here] there's this specific vocabulary
Kells: I don't care what specific words we use but I've learned a lot here and it is really hard to feel like I can't share tools/ideas for how to make things better.
DH: what are some tools/resources
Kells: Read "the power of validation"

DH made a genuine, kind effort. He noticed when you were shut down and reached out. He clarified and asked questions. He asked how could he make something better.

All this in the context of a pretty complicated high-maintenance blended family situation.

I admire you and DH.

It is hard for me to know what was my responsibility

I admire this about you, too. Looking back at the dialog again, it's almost like emotional switchtracking, if that makes sense. Something triggers a more intense emotion and then there's a super fast verbal maneuver that, if it's anything like what I do, is a way to control things from getting too vulnerable.

DH: So I ordered the book, but you still seem upset, did I do something?
Me: No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.
DH: (something else I can't remember)
Me: When is a good time for me to talk about my anger?
DH: Now is fine (this is where I felt like I heard a tone in his voice that seemed to me like it wasn't really)
Me: I was angry at how it seemed like you are ignoring/dismissing SD12 in small but pointless ways. It is painful for me to be there and see it, knowing that it could be so much better and more positive instead, and that it all was just so pointless, given that she has a hard time being at our house anyway.
DH: I don't understand why you are so angry about stuff between me and SD12, we have our own relationship.
Me: I just don't know how to talk about this.
DH: We are talking about this.
Me: But are we really? (I start to cry and am shut down/frozen)
DH: talks a lot for a long time (I have a hard time remembering content), then says "Am I just f***ing monologing now", then says "Oh, I get it, I'm just supposed to affirm everything you say"
Me: Please stop

DH goes for a walk.

DH: I can be hurtful without even knowing it.
Kells: Thank you.

Maybe DH got confused by this:

kells: No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.

He might be wondering: Is it your feelings or is it what he's doing? And if it's what he's doing in relationship to SD12, how come this is emotional for you?

You may be right about the issue (DH can communicate in a more skilled way with SD12) and you are resisting a difficult, maybe as-yet-unnamed vulnerable emotion that is in your wheelhouse.

Naming and genuinely owning that feeling, the one that is specific to why you feel aggravated when DH dismisses SD12, might make it for DH to respond to what's going on.

I wonder if there is a specific feeling/memory when you are witness to those moments, like the things you alluded to in your FOO, that is barreling at you so fast it makes it hard to talk about this with DH?

My H has asked me a similar question: Why are your emotions a 10 about this thing with (then) SD19?

Which, never mind that it's not a super skilled way to ask, is still a valid question.

If there is a legacy feeling happening that pre-dates this stuff with DH and SD12 (that you alluded to with FOO stuff), sometimes the best way to separate the issues is to give a heads up that you're working on something. It seems to be triggered when X and Y is happening. Then come up with a plan for how you're going to handle it.

"I feel (big feeling) when you're talking to SD12 and I need to figure out what's happening with me. I may need to (walk away/put on headphones/bite my hand) so heads up that's going to happen. My goal is to be able to bring this feeling down to something I can manage."

AND

"I want us to be on the same page about validating SD12. It's important to me because I can't unsee it or pretend it isn't happening. Maybe this book will help explain what I'm going for."

thoughts?

[formflier]

Like, if we can keep the footprint pretty small on these things and have multiple successful executions, then yeah, I think that would short circuit out the "derailing".

 

You've got my idea.  Good luck!

Best,

FF

[kells76]

You've got my idea.  Good luck!

Best,

FF

As our MC would say, it's important to "have a different experience" -- i.e. to go from "whenever we try to talk about the kids' schedule, it disintegrates" to "we had a brief successful conversation about the schedule", and to build on that to change associations ("this will always go badly" to "sometimes this is fine" to "this usually goes ok").

...

Tied in to that are the shutdowns/panic attacks I have. I had another one Tuesday night. I still have kind of a startle response/tic going on. I was sitting in a corner in the kitchen reading and DH came over and sat next to me and started giving me a backrub. I was surprised (I thought he was still busy with something else in another room) and sat for a bit, but then started feeling overwhelmed. The feelings were that I needed to get away/not be cornered/stuck, but I didn't want to communicate that DH was the problem -- I know it wasn't him. But it escalated for me pretty fast to total panic/sobbing, not being able to verbalize what was going on, and the "impossible situations" of "I can't talk/I need to tell you to stop", "I feel panic when you're here/I need you to know you're not the problem", "I need you to not touch me/I know you can help me feel better".

He helped me go sit down on the bed and was super calm and validating. That felt worse to me because every other time, that would be exactly what would help. But something about this time was too far for me. I just kept inching away from him but I didn't want to hurt him. He was still able to sit near me and not get mad/activated.

It just seems like there is damage being done to our relationship when things get to this point of me feeling fear around him, but knowing he's not the source of it. So now I'm wondering if part of my responsibility is to get myself out of conversations way earlier, if I have a sense that things will be too tense?

DH: So I ordered the book, but you still seem upset, did I do something?
Me: No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.
DH: (something else I can't remember)
Me: When is a good time for me to talk about my anger?
DH: Now is fine (this is where I felt like I heard a tone in his voice that seemed to me like it wasn't really)
Me: I was angry at how it seemed like you are ignoring/dismissing SD12 in small but pointless ways. It is painful for me to be there and see it, knowing that it could be so much better and more positive instead, and that it all was just so pointless, given that she has a hard time being at our house anyway.
DH: I don't understand why you are so angry about stuff between me and SD12, we have our own relationship.
Me: I just don't know how to talk about this.
DH: We are talking about this.
Me: But are we really? (I start to cry and am shut down/frozen)
DH: talks a lot for a long time (I have a hard time remembering content), then says "Am I just f***ing monologing now", then says "Oh, I get it, I'm just supposed to affirm everything you say"
Me: Please stop

Right when DH brought up that he bought the book but I still seemed upset, I feel like I heard something there that I identified as a red flag. And then definitely by the time I asked "when is a good time for me to talk about my anger", I feel like I knew "something is off". If it's just damaging us when I cry/check out/panic, then maybe I need to leave before it gets there, instead of participating in going down the road of conversation with low skills and only because "it's the right thing to do".

...

LnL:

Maybe DH got confused by this:
No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.

That makes sense now that you call it out. Even as I remember it, there was something fake about me saying "everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong", that was more about managing the situation than saying something true. I.e., it could be true, but I was using it to try to turn the knob down, because I thought I felt DH turning the knob up.

I wonder if there is a specific feeling/memory when you are witness to those moments, like the things you alluded to in your FOO, that is barreling at you so fast it makes it hard to talk about this with DH?

Yeah, one is of young SD12 back when she was SD5; it was Mom's time but Mom wasn't there and she was with Stepdad. DH and I were there too at a church thing. SD5 wanted to go with us and we were fine with it; Stepdad said he was too but then texted Mom. Mom said No so Stepdad told SD5 she couldn't go with us. She started crying. I can't remember if we hugged her goodbye or not, but I remember having to walk away from her and leave her there crying alone.

And then that I am pretty sure is then tied back to FOO stuff. I remember being alone a lot as a kid, and my mom not being emotionally available. I definitely cried a lot and remember crying alone a lot.

If there is a legacy feeling happening that pre-dates this stuff with DH and SD12 (that you alluded to with FOO stuff), sometimes the best way to separate the issues is to give a heads up that you're working on something. It seems to be triggered when X and Y is happening. Then come up with a plan for how you're going to handle it.

"I feel (big feeling) when you're talking to SD12 and I need to figure out what's happening with me. I may need to (walk away/put on headphones/bite my hand) so heads up that's going to happen. My goal is to be able to bring this feeling down to something I can manage."

AND

"I want us to be on the same page about validating SD12. It's important to me because I can't unsee it or pretend it isn't happening. Maybe this book will help explain what I'm going for."

Yeah, I want to keep thinking about this. I have to wrap up for a bit now, but will be back later.

[empath]

Kells,

This stood out to me from your description of the MC session:

That appt was where the MC reflected that the situation with the kids has been traumatic and continues to be so.

The MC says the situation is traumatic, and you are feeling "checked out", numb, panicked, on edge, etc. That sounds like a trauma reaction. It makes sense that it is hard to talk about it because trauma is not really in that place in a person's brain. It's a more primitive reaction.

The first place to start is managing the reaction. How are you with "grounding techniques"?

[Notwendy]

I've been following this thread and don't have a lot to add to the excellent comments here.

I think recognizing your own trauma response is helpful. It may take removing yourself from the conversation for a moment. I can relate to that. It helped me to learn to say " I am too overwhelmed to say something right now, please give me a moment" - this helped reduce those emotional circular discussions where you just feel awful afterwards, like an "emotional hangover" .

It's interesting that you brought up your mother's issues and that somehow, things are being brought up in parenting. For me, the additional awareness and autonomy brought more friction between me and my BPD mother. I think this is normal, as teens are more likely to assert themselves and notice that something isn't quite OK in the family. In some ways, parenting my teens was reparative for me. I wanted them to have the caring mother I wished for and so could strive for that.  Perhaps in a way you are doing this too- and then when you see your H not quite getting it, it feels wrong to you.

[kells76]

Going back to LnL's post, finally.

I wonder if there's a mixed message in how this is being conveyed? You want to discuss how you feel ... and yet, if I'm following the dialog accurately ... it's attached to a complaint about DH. And when DH tries to focus on how you feel, you say it's not him, it's you. But then that's followed by telling him what he does wrong ... ?

It's an ongoing issue for me. When I'm back at baseline, this makes sense -- there needs to be a back-and-forth, and it's not necessarily fair to expect DH to just absorb all my complaint/issue instantly. Maybe he has never seen himself doing X before -- it's not on his radar -- so if I bring it up ("I see you being dismissive of and ignoring SD12"), but he doesn't experience himself doing that, then yes, there could be some back and forth about "but I don't think I'm doing that".

And then if I both have the complaint and also say the issue is "just my anger", yeah, I can see that I'm running 2 things at once but one is just to try to control the other. I.e., maybe I am truly upset that I see DH acting a certain way towards SD12. But, in order to try to control his emotions and the dialogue, I say that "really, the problem is me and my anger about it". I want to be angry with him, and get him to see what I think he's doing and make a change, but I believe I will shut down/panic if he escalates, so I will do this other thing in an attempt to keep the intensity down. Except, this other thing undermines my point.

What I say: "I have a problem with how I see you treat SD12"

Way I try to manage conversation: "The problem is me"

Yeah, that is a mixed message.

The coping mechanism of "I am the problem" goes back a long time. I remember being grade-school age or younger and telling my mom I hated myself. I had acting-in behaviors as a teen as well. Those may have been ways I believed I could receive the loving attention and care I didn't otherwise reliably get from my mom. They must have worked and I see I may be using "I am the problem" to manage with DH.

...

First though, when I re-read your dialog, what stands out is how much you two care about each another. You're both clearly paddling in the same boat.
...DH made a genuine, kind effort. He noticed when you were shut down and reached out. He clarified and asked questions. He asked how could he make something better.

All this in the context of a pretty complicated high-maintenance blended family situation.

I admire you and DH.

Thank you. In ways we are getting better. I don't have the shut down panic as often any more. I have a few skills to deescalate myself, and DH offers to help me with them. He is slowly getting more patient when I struggle.

...

He might be wondering: Is it your feelings or is it what he's doing? And if it's what he's doing in relationship to SD12, how come this is emotional for you?

The "is it him or me" question has to do with me using "I'm the problem" as an intensity management mechanism -- like you noticed above. If "I am the problem", then instead of "DH leaving and I am alone" by him monologuing (isolating himself behind words, away from me emotionally), maybe DH will turn towards me and I will not be alone. I think when I was younger (and still now, differently), I couldn't be angry at my mom that she was not emotionally there. Anger would definitely mean, somehow, that she would not "be there". But, if I was very sad, or acted in in a noticeable enough way (eating disorder), I could get her to "be there" and I would not feel forgotten or alone.

The "if it's DH and SD12, why does it matter to kells76" question has to do with something besides the "kells76 says she's the problem" coping mechanism.

I agree it has to do with what you've spelled out:

You may be right about the issue (DH can communicate in a more skilled way with SD12) and you are resisting a difficult, maybe as-yet-unnamed vulnerable emotion that is in your wheelhouse.

Yeah, two things at once, and again, I see now that it could be confusing to DH to have them all twisted together. As frustrating as it was when he brought up "you're identifying too much with SD12, we have our own relationship", part of that was true (though perhaps part for him was his own resistance to his own "difficult, maybe as-yet-unnamed vulnerable emotion").

Naming and genuinely owning that feeling, the one that is specific to why you feel aggravated when DH dismisses SD12, might make it for DH to respond to what's going on.

I had not thought about it that way. Because yes, I do want DH to respond to what's genuinely going on.

I feel a lot of powerlessness when I see him be dismissive/ignoring (in my perspective) of SD12. I feel like I see "things headed south" and "things being destructive", and I feel trapped into watching it with no way to stop it. And I feel fear that the invalidation/ignoring/putting down of SD12 is damaging her personality.

So, the feelings include:

powerlessness/no control (but more the powerlessness)

trapped

fearful

...

I wonder if there is a specific feeling/memory when you are witness to those moments, like the things you alluded to in your FOO, that is barreling at you so fast it makes it hard to talk about this with DH?

I think I did mention a memory about then-SD5, but again, that's just a string tied to earlier FOO stuff, and probably generational stuff coming from my mom. I don't really have any specific memories of "Mom doing something awful to me"; I do have some memories of "something sort of normal happening, and Mom yelling or getting really, really quiet". Also memories of wanting to show Mom something, and she was asleep in the day time, and wanting Mom at night, but getting Dad instead. Nothing super specific or content-wise traumatic, but there was always a sense that it was really bad for Mom to be sad or angry. We didn't really share feelings, and I remember a sense of being feelings-disabled (i.e. unable to really identify/name feelings) in my early to mid 20s.

Nothing specifically traumatic, just generally always me feeling down/sad/like I was the problem, feeling scared that something would happen to my mom, feeling like I needed to take care of myself, feeling like I shouldn't do stuff that would upset/sadden her, etc. Pervasive/chronic versus acute.

...

My H has asked me a similar question: Why are your emotions a 10 about this thing with (then) SD19?

Which, never mind that it's not a super skilled way to ask, is still a valid question.

Maybe one of our challenges will be for DH and I to talk about FOO stuff impacting parenting/kids without the act of raising that topic being triggering. I.e., without it being a track switch from either of us. Like you suggested, it can be real that DH is doing something unhealthy, and also real that my reaction about it is higher due to FOO stuff than is normal. DH's behavior with SD12 could be a 5/10, so an issue, and my response to it is an 8/10, so 5 units of normal response and 3 extra units that are coming from elsewhere.

If there is a legacy feeling happening that pre-dates this stuff with DH and SD12 (that you alluded to with FOO stuff), sometimes the best way to separate the issues is to give a heads up that you're working on something. It seems to be triggered when X and Y is happening. Then come up with a plan for how you're going to handle it.

"I feel (big feeling) when you're talking to SD12 and I need to figure out what's happening with me. I may need to (walk away/put on headphones/bite my hand) so heads up that's going to happen. My goal is to be able to bring this feeling down to something I can manage."

AND

"I want us to be on the same page about validating SD12. It's important to me because I can't unsee it or pretend it isn't happening. Maybe this book will help explain what I'm going for."

Yeah. I'm realizing now that another fear I have is that if I'm not there, things won't go well between SD12 and DH. Not all the time, but it's this sense that I struggle with trusting that DH will use the appropriate tools (validating, SET, etc). And that contributes to my "trapped" feeling -- that when "things are going south" with the two of them, and I happen to be there... that I can't leave. That I HAVE to stay. It's the fear that DH will be hurtful to SD12 so I have to "fix it", but the trauma, I guess, of being trapped witnessing it.

[legalboxers]

Hey, I'm having a hard time tonight. Had a couple of truly traumatic conversations in the last week, and I feel numb and don't want to think of what tomorrow will bring. I'm not suicidal but called the hotline just to have someone to talk to... but was on hold, so gave up. So, here I am. Even with helping other people here.

you ok?

[kells76]

you ok?

It was a hard week+ ... doing better today. We have a counseling appt Monday. Not suicidal now (or then), but last week it was more the thoughts coming up of "what if I wasn't here... I'd feel better". I knew it wasn't healthy. Mostly just needed to talk and get support. FYI for using the hotline, it's a lot of automated "your call is important to us, press 1 for English" at the start. And then I was on hold... with muzak. If I were in a way worse place IDK how I'd deal with that.

[kells76]

Hi empath;

The MC says the situation is traumatic, and you are feeling "checked out", numb, panicked, on edge, etc. That sounds like a trauma reaction. It makes sense that it is hard to talk about it because trauma is not really in that place in a person's brain. It's a more primitive reaction.

The first place to start is managing the reaction. How are you with "grounding techniques"?

Yeah, it feels like I'm just gone... I can't engage with verbal stuff.

I have a few tools for managing the reaction.

One is "visualizing being in a peaceful place". I have a specific place I think of, and I try to picture as many details as possible.

Another is standing in an X shape and rocking laterally back and forth from foot to foot.

Another, that I learned here, is the mammalian dive reflex, where you submerge your whole face in ice cold water.

1 and 3 I do on my own. Sometimes DH will suggest 2, and sometimes I take him up on it.

I am doing better with attempting to use the tools when I sense myself escalating. Sometimes, though, I'm so far gone that while I still have awareness that I'm panicking/checking out, I lose the desire to use the tools. Something about just escaping into the response is more appealing or comfortable.

[kells76]

I think recognizing your own trauma response is helpful. It may take removing yourself from the conversation for a moment. I can relate to that. It helped me to learn to say " I am too overwhelmed to say something right now, please give me a moment" - this helped reduce those emotional circular discussions where you just feel awful afterwards, like an "emotional hangover" .

I would probably need to talk to DH ahead of time so he'd know. I sense even now a fear that cutting things off like that would not stop an eventual escalation -- like, things would still get traumatic, just later on. A fear that taking a time out would be prolonging the inevitable.

That being said, it still may be better to try and leave -- just to stop things then, regardless of what may or may not happen later. Because it's not like it'd go better to power through when we're both activated.

I wanted them to have the caring mother I wished for and so could strive for that.  Perhaps in a way you are doing this too- and then when you see your H not quite getting it, it feels wrong to you.

I want DH to not think it's inevitable that the kids' mom will "win", that he will "lose", that it's not worth trying something different, that the kids will reject him, that there's nothing he can do to make things go differently for him and SD12. I want him to not lose hope even when SD12 says all kinds of stuff that would make him feel rejected.

I think if I see DH doing stuff that comes across to me as "checking out when the kids are there", that is painful to me because that is what my mom would do.

[Notwendy]

I wonder what your DH's experience with his own parents was?

Yes teens will say things. One of their tasks is to try to discover who they are as autonomous people and they don't know who they are yet, so they adopt a "not my parent" attitude. To the parent, this can feel like rejection but it's a normal process. I think from the parent perspective, we need to take this from a loving perspective and not react with our own personal hurts. This is different from having boundaries. A teen needs to know it's not OK to cuss out a parent if they are doing that, but I also wonder if every parent of a teen hasn't heard "I hate you" at least once after holding a boundary with them.

This kind of thing was really difficult for me because of my experiences with my BPD mother. She would explain it to others as this "mother daughter teen age thing" and that it was my issue but truthfully I was being emotionally abused and hated it. So when my own teens were angry at me, I feared they would also resent me that way too. But the relationship is different and teens grow out of it. I also think it's hard for a teen to assert autonomy with a BPD parent because the response from that parent is so risky. A parent might get upset with a teen but not go into a rage.

You see your H struggle with his teens and it feels like what you experienced but your H is a different person so their relationship is different. He may get exasperated with them, well welcome to the parent of teen agers club. Teens can be challenging at times and he may feel less capable of parenting teen girls than you. Genetics being what they are- they may remind him of his ex- even if they don't have BPD in some ways. Also- there is learned behavior from their mother- which can remind him of her too. However, you may be able to step in here better than DH can if he's not able to handle feeling rejected by his teen age girls even if that's a common behavior at this stage. He may not have the emotional strenght you wish he had.

[livednlearned]

What I say: "I have a problem with how I see you treat SD12"

Way I try to manage conversation: "The problem is me"

I can't remember where I heard this thing about how when a parent is checked out, the child, not being able to locate the cause, assumes that the problem must be internal. It must be us if we can't find the fault with the parent. I wonder if that's happening a bit here?

I feel a lot of powerlessness when I see him be dismissive/ignoring (in my perspective) of SD12. I feel like I see "things headed south" and "things being destructive", and I feel trapped into watching it with no way to stop it. And I feel fear that the invalidation/ignoring/putting down of SD12 is damaging her personality.

I have these feelings in our blended family, too. And vice versa, when I see SD19 manipulating H and he doesn't recognize it, or dismisses it, that can be a level 8, 9, 10 feeling for me, too. Though that is becoming more rare, thankfully.

So, the feelings include:

powerlessness/no control (but more the powerlessness)

trapped

fearful

Have you had a therapist suggest how to manage these feelings in the moment?

there was always a sense that it was really bad for Mom to be sad or angry. We didn't really share feelings, and I remember a sense of being feelings-disabled (i.e. unable to really identify/name feelings) in my early to mid 20s

Feelings disabled is a good way to describe this.

I can see why experiencing anger would feel scary.

it can be real that DH is doing something unhealthy, and also real that my reaction about it is higher due to FOO stuff than is normal. DH's behavior with SD12 could be a 5/10, so an issue, and my response to it is an 8/10, so 5 units of normal response and 3 extra units that are coming from elsewhere.

I'm realizing now that another fear I have is that if I'm not there, things won't go well between SD12 and DH. Not all the time, but it's this sense that I struggle with trusting that DH will use the appropriate tools (validating, SET, etc). And that contributes to my "trapped" feeling -- that when "things are going south" with the two of them, and I happen to be there... that I can't leave. That I HAVE to stay. It's the fear that DH will be hurtful to SD12 so I have to "fix it", but the trauma, I guess, of being trapped witnessing it.

I wonder what a T would recommend is best. Because there's what's best for kells76 ... is that what is also best for the blended dynamic? And for your marriage?

I found in our dynamic, if I took a giant step back, it created a space for H to experience uncertainty (and anxiety) and that led him to seek me out for knowledge/support.

It made me feel anxious at first, and took self-control to do that (initially) and then honestly? It was freeing, though not easy to get there.

Some of the stuff you describe with trauma seems very visceral. Have you looked into body-based therapies? I found the talk therapy path to have limitations. It was great for crisis and counseling through complex family scenarios. But to get to the deeply buried trauma stuff somatic experiencing (SE) therapy is what ultimately worked.

[ForeverDad]

Since this is a recurring stress, trauma or anxiety, there's a med propranolol (beta-blocker) that moderates the impact of flashbacks.  In some way it keeps the memory of incidents from being replayed in your head at the same high intensity as before.

Whether this is a wise option for you, your medical doctor, specialist or psychologist might consider this as an option?

[kells76]

Hi FD, thanks for the suggestion. Interestingly, if these are flashbacks, they're contentless -- there isn't a specific memory or person in my mind. And also, interestingly, I have a content-full but totally processed traumatic incident to compare it to. Our housemate died at our house a couple of years ago, and I was the one who found him. It was traumatic at first but now I can think about it as "something sad that happened a long time ago". Whatever is coming up now, the contentless stuff, feels like an 11/10 for paralyzing fear, but remembering the actual memory of our housemate is down to a 2/10.
My mom's mom died when I was just a baby, so I wonder if my mom was unavailable to infant me because of her grief. Maybe that would be why the trauma is contentless, because I was too little to make any memories.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi kells,

Emotional flashbacks don't have to be tied to a specific conscious memory. For instance, in therapy I processed emotions surrounding my mother's suicide attempt and subsequent disability which happened when I was two. I have no memory of the actual event but my therapist explained that I had "emotional memory".

I think it's entirely possible you have emotional memory from infancy or childhood that isn't tied to a specific conscious memory.

Most of my childhood trauma is not tied to a single or several traumatic events but rather, the collective experience of feeling fearful and emotionally unsafe- complex trauma.

[tvda]

My mom's mom died when I was just a baby, so I wonder if my mom was unavailable to infant me because of her grief

My baby sister died when I was three, leading to my mom spending a year in bed depressed. Not her fault and understandable, but it did cause me lifelong damage.

Do you have any information about how you dealt with this as a toddler? I had to have a couple of difficult talks with my older brother and sister, mom and dad about this and it was enlightening. Hearing them describe how I acted in dealing with this is a blueprint for how I still act in my adult relationships.

I would suggest buying a copy of "The Body Keeps The Score". Not light reading, but very insightful about childhood and other trauma.