Trying to understand a fatal shooting by deputies (trigger warning)

[Cat Familiar]

I just watched a video from the Sheriff’s department about a tragic incident that happened recently. A woman was walking down a busy thoroughfare with her two young (under 5) children, creating a hazardous situation for not only her and her kids  but drivers trying to avoid her.

Many 911 calls had come in, and she had even gone to someone’s house and asked a woman there to drive her to the state line, hundreds of miles away.

The woman and her children had gotten to a safer area when deputies arrived. They attempted to calm her, telling her that she wasn’t in trouble, and dashboard video filmed the entire incident.

Almost immediately she brandished a long knife and lunged at one of the officers, telling him to kill her now and making other nonsensical statements. The other officer attempted to taser her, but the taser didn’t work and she ran after him with the knife, getting about two feet from him, when the first officer used his service weapon and shot her.

On the ground, she still tried to attack with the knife. The officers told her to drop it and they would provide medical attention, which they ultimately did, but she did not drop the knife for a number of minutes.

While this was ongoing, another officer arrived and the children were put in a sheriffs vehicle, with a local resident taking care of them.

An ambulance arrived and took her to the hospital where she died of gunshot wounds.

The District Attorney’s office is investigating the incident to determine if the use of force was appropriate.

Many local community members are outraged and feel that there was no reason for this woman to die. They feel that mental health professionals should have been called to defuse the situation.

In watching the video, I got a very different feeling. The officers when they first approached her were friendly and non threatening, other than being sheriffs deputies. Within 30 seconds she was threatening them, and armed with a seriously large knife.

It all happened so quickly, I felt like the officers had no choice to respond other than they did, as nearby residents and people driving by were in danger, in addition to the two young children.

I wondered if this young woman might have had BPD or was under the influence of drugs. The toxicology report hasn’t been released yet.

I’m not sure why I’m sharing this very disturbing incident. Perhaps it’s because I see some people minimizing untreated mental health issues. Maybe I just need to share since it was difficult to watch.

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[formflier]

"Suicide by cop" is a real thing. 

I used to be in the chain of command for Sheriff's deputies, so would hear them plan for different places they would go. 

The thing that scared them most was "unknown mental health issues".   As in they show up and "out of nowhere" they are confronted with someone that really should be hospitalized.  Well...many of those people also have substance abuse and other issues.

The places where they "knew" mental health was untreated...was handled totally differently.

Personally...I would hope that all LE types have several different types of non-lethal force to try before having to employ lethal force.  So...taser doesn't work, you whip out pepper spray.

As I imagine this situation, many would say they should have retreated to their vehicles and waited...or kept running. 

At first glance that seems workable..but then who is protecting the minor children?

So the officers survive...the woman survives...but kids are dead from stab wounds?  Is the community "happier"?

It sucks...really sucks that this happened.  Happy endings simply aren't possible sometimes.

Cat Familiar , thanks for sharing.  Be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for your reply, FF. The more I thought about what I’d seen, the more conflicted I became.

The first couple of shots which dropped her to the ground seemed a reasonable use of force, as she was hellbent on stabbing the officer who attempted to tase her.

The tragic thing was that the officer who fired his weapon, fired another two shots after she was on the ground, but still trying to attack the officer who unsuccessfully tased her. Perhaps she could have thrown her knife, but I don’t think his life was in danger at that point.

However, I can imagine the shooter’s perspective and at that moment, everyone was maxed out on adrenaline, and she was still perhaps a danger.

I think the County is going to have a major lawsuit to defend.

Ideally, it would be nice if there was more mental health training for officers. But realistically, in this case, she immediately went into attack mode, just because they were law enforcement. And people saying that there should be mental health crisis teams instead of law enforcement responding to these types of incidents don’t have a realistic overview of services a rural county can employ.

It’s a tragedy, not only for this young woman’s children and family, but also for the officers involved.

[formflier]

I'm not sure if it is reasonable for a guy to carefully consider each shot...if the weapon is still being waved around/the target is still somewhat active.

It would be nice...but I'm not sure it is reasonable.

How long between shots?  If it's a matter of seconds...it's one thing...if it is a few minutes, totally another.

I had one of my Sailors that was a border patrol guy.  He was sent up north to rest and recuperate after being involved in a fatal shooting. 

He was open about how it happened and told me that once he started shooting, he didn't really remember.  Some of his buddies were holding him/moving him away because he was still yelling at the dead guy (why did you do that?)

Essentially he had given a command to keep hands visible, the guy he shot reached and pulled a pistol.  Guy was dead before pistol ever got to a position where it could shoot my guy or any other border patrol.

The guy says his buddies told him he did everything "right" (they had video too), but my guy didn't remember.

Tough stuff..

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

This sounds terrible.

I am going to guess under the influence of drugs and/or more severely mentally ill than BPD. This seems extreme for BPD. The issues with BPD seem to be with the closest relationships- and involve emotional dysregulation- raging. If there is physical assault, it's probably pushing, hitting, breaking objects. I have not heard of using a weapon as something common to BPD- it's possible but not a common situation as far as I know, and we don't usually read about that on this board.

How sad a situation for this family.

[Cat Familiar]

It seemed that there was only a few seconds between the first shots that felled her and the subsequent shots. In my opinion, with the heightened danger and emotional reactions, it seemed not an extreme reaction by the officer.

How it plays out in court, should it be litigated, might be quite different than how it appears to me. Those few seconds between shots could have been the difference whether or not she survived.

Stories are coming out about her being a good mother, yet she was walking in the middle of traffic with her two children.

It’s sad for all concerned. I’m sure that those officers are rethinking every minute of what occurred and wishing they had done things differently.

[Notwendy]

I googled this- putting in "woman with children shot in road" brought it up - and watched it.

One thought I had was that- that was a pretty big knife. She was screaming and out of control. Although she was shot when going after a deputy, my other thought was that she could have plunged it into the child ( heaven forbid). While she may have had no intentions of doing that, there's no way to know. Once she became violent with that knife, I don't think the deputies could not respond. However, it seems that once she was on the ground, there didn't seem to be reason to continue- that's where the questions are.

[formflier]

I can't really fault the deputy for any of the shots.  I tried to time from first shot to last shot and came up with 4-5 seconds.

There was a shot...(I doubt he hit), a brief pause, then a double shot, brief pause, then another double shot.

That could be a training thing for them.  Shoot, pause, shoot.  So from that I'm taking that once he made the decision to shoot...he followed his training, vice "deciding" to let each bullet go as a separate decision.

Not sure I'm explaining that well.

Use of force decisions often go like this.

Should I use force...yes.

Then keep using force until its "overly obvious" that you no longer need to use force.  So just like there was a deliberate decision to start using force..that force continued until a deliberate decision was made to stop using it.  (vice making a deliberate decision about each bullet)

What a sad situation and video.  Those deputies were doing their best to get the kids away from having to see that.

Plus...she is saying "kill me now".

Also...she is walking down the road with no traffic or obvious danger, yet her grip on the children's hands is massive.  That really stuck out to me.

I've gripped like that, but maybe it was when there where cars whizzing by.

Ugg.

Best,

FF