Forgiveness & unconditional love

[truthdevotee]

Sometimes I feel upset by the things my partner has said or done. Right now it's due to a comment she made a couple of days ago. She called me fat and attacked my sexual "performance." Really what saddens me is the desire to hurt.

I'm still learning about boundary setting and setting limits - not yet set limits around name calling as I need to plan it carefully e.g. what the consequence will be and ensuring it's a consequence I can follow through with at all times.

So I've been pretty quiet with her over the last two days. I guess this is due to being a limbo / not having the skills on limit setting yet. Hence I am still absorbing her thoughts/feelings. I'm slowly learning to individuate.

Is it possible to reach the point where the negative thoughts/actions of our loved pwBPD is met within us with unconditional compassion? At times, it happens for me, but not consistently.

The problem with going quiet with her for a prolonged time period is that it eventually gets to her. Plus, it's not mature from my side and I hope with the building of the skills from the books and on this forum, I can overcome this "quiet resentment" completely.

Over the years, I learned to speak vulnerably about what has hurt me, but that's a hit or miss situation. It's 50/50 how it will go down. At times, she has apologized, and at other times, it triggers an even worse rage because in her mind what she said/did was "caused" by me... so, I could - over the last couple of days - have said "you know, it really hurt me what you said about my body and our sexual experience." But I just haven't said it. On a conscious level, my rationalization for not having said this is the fact that it is 50/50 successful. And probably actually more like 25% chance of success. So I just learn not to express myself about a whole range of topics because it never seems to go anywhere positive.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tvda]

She called me fat and attacked my sexual "performance."

This is abuse. Watch out in striving to give unconditional love. Especially when this is not reciprocated. Unconditional love, strictly put, means that you don't even set "not being abused" as a condition or boundary. And that opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

How about 'unconditional' self-love first?

[truthdevotee]

This is abuse. Watch out in striving to give unconditional love. Especially when this is not reciprocated. Unconditional love, strictly put, means that you don't even set "not being abused" as a condition or boundary. And that opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

How about 'unconditional' self-love first?

Thanks tvda.

I've had a history of attempting to set boundaries but they weren't respected.

I would sometimes leave the house as a consequence. But it's hard because I have the toddlers at home and they get sad if I leave.

I want to set limits on the abuse.

[truthdevotee]

Sometimes I do think about renting a separate flat close by. It would be sad but it would be a statement of things needing to change. I would be sad for the boys.

For now ill keep taking steps to regain freedom. This sounds silly but my success today was using the washing machine without checking if in her mind it's full enough or not. I just put it on.

I may also get my own netflix account. I borrow a friends account for several months because she didn't want me to spend like 6 dollars a month.

[tvda]

I want to set limits on the abuse.

I would love to save you months if not years, and just tell you to break things off, find your own place and never look back... I'm sorry for being so direct.

I have found that setting boundaries to get a desired change in behaviour in someone else with a personality disorder is almost impossible - given the already skewed power dynamics at play.

That's why I thing that you should set boundaries, and put consequence on not respecting these boundaries for yourself. Set a boundary, inform your partner of the consequence, and follow up on this consequence yourself.

Write this down into a list. For example:
- if my partner keeps on making hurtful remarks I will get a place of my own. Even temporarily.

I find that personal growth or escape works best when you have yourself to hold accountable. If you hold them accountable it's way to easy to give things an umpteenth chance in frustration.

[truthdevotee]

I would love to save you months if not years, and just tell you to break things off, find your own place and never look back... I'm sorry for being so direct.

It's OK... I genuinely appreciate it. Thanks for being direct about it.

I grew up in a home where my parents "stayed together for the kids." I've carried that same desire. I have two boys, 3 years old and 2 years old. They're bundles of joy. But I've been reading the other sub-forum on this forum and there's a lot of resources about whether separation is ultimately good or bad for the children. Having started to read these resources, I'm starting to shift my perceptions a bit. Also reading the resources about how to separate, how to set things up in terms of joint custody, etc., just absorbing the information creates an understanding within me and makes what would be impossible for me alone, possible with the support of this forum. I think I need to find a local therapist too who understands BPD, who can maybe even help me with practical matters associated with separation.

I have found that setting boundaries to get a desired change in behaviour in someone else with a personality disorder is almost impossible - given the already skewed power dynamics at play.

Yeah... I mentioned my pain about her statements about my body and sexual "performance" tonight... and as expected, her reply was "YEAH but you didn't listen to my feelings!" It's so frustrating because I have been deliberately practicing recognizing and acknowledging her feelings... so it feels as if no matter what I do, if she thinks I'm the CAUSE of all of her behavior, it's a dead-end.

That's why I thing that you should set boundaries, and put consequence on not respecting these boundaries for yourself. Set a boundary, inform your partner of the consequence, and follow up on this consequence yourself.

Write this down into a list. For example:
- if my partner keeps on making hurtful remarks I will get a place of my own. Even temporarily.

I find that personal growth or escape works best when you have yourself to hold accountable. If you hold them accountable it's way to easy to give things an umpteenth chance in frustration.

OK... thank you tvda. This is super helpful and practical. I'll start doing this. You know, if I were to rent a flat close by, it would be a massive statement, something that has never happened before. The last time it nearly happened was about 1 year ago. I said, in an email to her and to her FOO, that if she doesn't join couples counselling with me within the next 1 month, I will leave the apartment.

She did come... but it amounted to nothing... she maintained and still maintains that I'm the problem, that she has no issues ("I'm just normal!") and the worst part is that I believed all of this on some level, despite all of my deep pain and confusion. She's used my genuine interest in self-development and my need for 12 Step recovery against me, and some deeply held low self-esteem and guilt about my self has had me believe what she says about me. It's only since arriving here in the last couple of weeks that constant aha moments are occurring, and that she truly DOES have an issue that she doesn't recognize, and I'm not going crazy.

And so... to actually RENT an apartment would be a major statement. I could even tell her that even though it is a "waste of money" - I am renting an apartment through my own choice, and that if she does name-calling I have somewhere to go, and take the children with me. I could tell her that I want to live with her, I want to stay with her, I want to sleep in the same home... but for now I need a "back up" so that if things don't change over the next e.g. 1 year, I have a place to go.

From the financial perspective it would cause her major shock and she will tell me I'm crazy, irresponsible, uncaring for the future of our boys, etc. But I would just have to take it and tell her, this truly is a serious situation and she has to recognize it as such.

I might be a way forward... kind of showing that I CAN leave her. Because right now, I'm manipulated in a sense, I'm in a powerless position because of my sons being so little... I have to kind of stay at home and take the abuse because leaving the house also impacts THEM. But if I have somewhere to escape to, it would be possible to leave WITH them...

[tvda]

Hi Thruthdevotee, here's some tough love for you:

Your parents stayed together for the kids. I'm assuming, in spite of an unhappy or disfunctional relationship. And here you are, as a child of such an arrangement, vulnerable to emotional abuse.

I have the unfortunate experience of having dated a lot of women with severe emotional issues or personality disorders. Most of them came from disfunctional families that stayed together for the kids. More often than not they grew up absorbing a doubly harmful message: one parent was bad to them, and the other parent did not have the spine or make the effort to take the kids out of this toxic environment. You could say they were neglected by both parents because of this. And these women came out damaged, and later ended up in toxic, abusive relationships themselves - and pushed away the healthy partners (of which I count myself as one).

I don't have statistic data to back this up. This is purely anecdotal. But in my experience, staying together for the kids set up these kids for a lifetime of relationship difficulties and possibly abuse.

By the way: you can start out with a week of separation in a nearby AirBNB, and then return. This should express the seriousness of your boundaries somewhat, without costing too much or being overly dramatic. And you don't need to go looking for a furnished place right away.

If the bad behaviour persists, you can go for two weeks at this AirBNB. And after that, if needed, get a permanent place of your own.

[truthdevotee]

Hi Thruthdevotee, here's some tough love for you:

Your parents stayed together for the kids. I'm assuming, in spite of an unhappy or disfunctional relationship. And here you are, as a child of such an arrangement, vulnerable to emotional abuse.

I have the unfortunate experience of having dated a lot of women with severe emotional issues or personality disorders. Most of them came from disfunctional families that stayed together for the kids. More often than not they grew up absorbing a doubly harmful message: one parent was bad to them, and the other parent did not have the spine or make the effort to take the kids out of this toxic environment. You could say they were neglected by both parents because of this. And these women came out damaged, and later ended up in toxic, abusive relationships themselves - and pushed away the healthy partners (of which I count myself as one).

I don't have statistic data to back this up. This is purely anecdotal. But in my experience, staying together for the kids set up these kids for a lifetime of relationship difficulties and possibly abuse.

Thanks tvda. Wow...
I suppose also that by leaving - if boundaries are not respected - I am teaching my children strength. As in, you do not allow others to treat you that way - you don't deserve it - and you have the freedom to choose. If their Dad can choose, so can they, and they won't grow up with an unhealthy model of marriage submerged into their subconscious. Unfortunately I'm sure that's happened to a certain extent already. They say before age 7 is critical in terms of brain development. But yeah, my eldest on is 4 in April... so still some years to go.

By the way: you can start out with a week of separation in a nearby AirBNB, and then return. This should express the seriousness of your boundaries somewhat, without costing too much or being overly dramatic. And you don't need to go looking for a furnished place right away.

If the bad behaviour persists, you can go for two weeks at this AirBNB. And after that, if needed, get a permanent place of your own.

This is a brilliant idea...
Thank you so much


[/quote]

[tvda]

You're welcome - happy to help.

Regarding children: there is only one way and place where they learn what a "normal to them" relationship looks like - in there own maternal home. Where else would they learn this? If a child sees a parent being abused from time to time, this become their blueprint of what a normal relationship is.

Later on in life, they will attract the same thing, because it feels familiar. Unfortunately, if an unsafe environment was familiar to them, they will gravitate to this later on in life. They will even flee a safe environment, because it feels too alien to them. I have seen this personally with ex-girlfriend with a history of abuse. We would spend an evening with my parents and siblings, and I would be so happy that they finally got to feel what a warm nest feels like. And then on the way home in the car they would tell me that they felt superuncomfortable with the whole deal.

Don't ruminate on their age. This "learning" occurs at all ages, and there is only one magic formula: the shorter the exposure to a bad example of what a primary relationship is, the better, no matter what their age.

[Notwendy]

Is it possible to reach the point where the negative thoughts/actions of our loved pwBPD is met within us with unconditional compassion? At times, it happens for me, but not consistently.

I hope I can overcome this "quiet resentment" completely.




Here is what this looks like to me. Is it possible to allow someone to be abusive to me and not feel anything negative towards them?

Yes, if this is your desired goal. You can talk yourself into ignoring your own feelings. However what are feelings anyway? They were designed to protect us, alert us to potential dangers. If primtive humans were being chased by a wild animal, fear was designed to keep them from getting eaten. If your neighbor was beating you with a stick, anger would prompt you to protect yourself. If your neighbor stole something from you, resentment would prompt you to build a stronger cave.

We don't live under the same conditions but physiologically, we are not built differently. Fear, anger, resentment, these are still there to tell you that you are not in a situation that is good for you. We also have the choice about what to do about them. Sometimes we should not act on them. Maybe one is afraid but if you aren't being chased by a wild animal, you can make a choice of how to act on that fear.

What you are asking if it is possible to do is to turn these feelings off, so you don't feel them and things can be nice and calm and you can feel all warm and fuzzy towards your wife even if she's being abusive to you. Yes, one can disconnect, numb out, at least for a while, but I am not sure it's the best action to take.

[truthdevotee]

You're welcome - happy to help.

Regarding children: there is only one way and place where they learn what a "normal to them" relationship looks like - in there own maternal home. Where else would they learn this? If a child sees a parent being abused from time to time, this become their blueprint of what a normal relationship is.

Later on in life, they will attract the same thing, because it feels familiar. Unfortunately, if an unsafe environment was familiar to them, they will gravitate to this later on in life. They will even flee a safe environment, because it feels too alien to them. I have seen this personally with ex-girlfriend with a history of abuse. We would spend an evening with my parents and siblings, and I would be so happy that they finally got to feel what a warm nest feels like. And then on the way home in the car they would tell me that they felt superuncomfortable with the whole deal.

Don't ruminate on their age. This "learning" occurs at all ages, and there is only one magic formula: the shorter the exposure to a bad example of what a primary relationship is, the better, no matter what their age.

Thanks again. Being on this forum for 2 weeks is completely transformative. I'm just continuously grateful. I have a tendency to deeply feel things whether it's gratitude, or pain from poor treatment as in the case when pwBPD deliberately tries to hurt me with name-calling.

I'm aware that trying to receive any form of understanding from her towards me is a losing game. Hence, the power struggle that you mentioned. There's really only way out of the power struggle, and that's to fully take back my own power by asserting that I'm an individual who can make choices. Since she believes right now that I'm powerless, simply because I've seen myself that way, she can't have any respect for me.

Therefore, contemplating how to go about temporary separation, even if only or a week, feels right. Because there appears to be no other way for her to open her eyes. It's fascinating how she can say such hurtful things and then forget about it, acting as if nothing has happened. She then insinuates that I'm just a miserable person.

So I guess my self-development and boundary/consequence for myself is:

"If I am so deeply hurt by being called names again, at any time, I must move out of our home temporarily. I'll rent an Airbnb apartment close by for 1 week. It will be your choice regarding whether you will keep the children, or me. If I were to keep the children, since I have a full-time job, I will take 1 week of vacation to look after them. If they express a particular desire regarding who they want to be with, we should respect that. Therefore, if they ask to be with me, then we should allow that.

You might see this as unfair, disrespectful or a sign that I don't love you or care for you. I do love and care for you and our relationship. In order for our relationship to survive, I want to protect it, and that means not allowing any form of abuse coming my way"

... I know the above is a bit long and I'm 99% sure it will be resisted... it may even trigger the very same name-calling. So in the end, all I have to do is make the consequence happen and ignore all of her inevitable resistance, anger and victimhood... that's the key - following through... it's the only thing that would open her eyes. Maybe I should even do it now after her comments about my body and sexual "performance."

[truthdevotee]

Is it possible to reach the point where the negative thoughts/actions of our loved pwBPD is met within us with unconditional compassion? At times, it happens for me, but not consistently.

I hope I can overcome this "quiet resentment" completely.




Here is what this looks like to me. Is it possible to allow someone to be abusive to me and not feel anything negative towards them?

Yes, if this is your desired goal. You can talk yourself into ignoring your own feelings. However what are feelings anyway? They were designed to protect us, alert us to potential dangers. If primtive humans were being chased by a wild animal, fear was designed to keep them from getting eaten. If your neighbor was beating you with a stick, anger would prompt you to protect yourself. If your neighbor stole something from you, resentment would prompt you to build a stronger cave.

We don't live under the same conditions but physiologically, we are not built differently. Fear, anger, resentment, these are still there to tell you that you are not in a situation that is good for you. We also have the choice about what to do about them. Sometimes we should not act on them. Maybe one is afraid but if you aren't being chased by a wild animal, you can make a choice of how to act on that fear.

What you are asking if it is possible to do is to turn these feelings off, so you don't feel them and things can be nice and calm and you can feel all warm and fuzzy towards your wife even if she's being abusive to you. Yes, one can disconnect, numb out, at least for a while, but I am not sure it's the best action to take.

Hi Notwendy,

Thank you... feels very healing to read your responses.

It's a deep lesson what you're saying about feelings. Massive for me - transformative. I need to practice seeing my feelings as friends and communicators. I see it's just senseless to believe I should allow another person to abuse me and still feel warm and fuzzy - that's such a perfect way to describe it, warm and fuzzy. It's also unloving to allow people to be unloving. That's an eye opener. Love is not only nurturing it's also about discipline. I know that from my recovery with addictions. Going to meetings is discipline. It is self-love and loving to the self to have that discipline. So to think I need to be warm and fuzzy in the face of abuse is insane, because I hurt myself and allow her to be undisciplined. I also teach my boys to be undisciplined.

[tvda]

It's fascinating how she can say such hurtful things and then forget about it, acting as if nothing has happened.

There are only four explanations for this:
1) Dissociative amnesia
2) Projection
3) Gaslighting
4) Conscious malicious intent

Neither of the above are good news. Do not underestimate dissociative amnesia and projection. Even though these are subconscious processes, they are active processes, i.e. with intent and power behind them.

I think you are strong and on the right path in enforcing your boundaries. How exactly you wish to communicate this is up to you, and mostly form.

One word of warning though: if you put a lot of effort into explaining why a boundary is important or healthy, and what they should do instead, you are already letting your boundaries become blurry. Same goes for a lot of statements about you still loving them.

The core idea is: you treat me badly, I do my own thing. And you leave them to figure out if they want to put in the effort, and how to do this.

In a normal situation, I am all for clear communication and talking things through deeply. But when it comes to setting boundaries in toxic relationships, the less said the better, in my opinion.

I don't mean this in a malicious way, but in your case setting boundaries is meant to make them feel unsafe, and that they will lose you. Supporting your communication with messages of how you love them and don't want to lose them weakens your message tremendously.

[truthdevotee]

There are only four explanations for this:
1) Dissociative amnesia
2) Projection
3) Gaslighting
4) Conscious malicious intent

Neither of the above are good news. Do not underestimate dissociative amnesia and projection. Even though these are subconscious processes, they are active processes, i.e. with intent and power behind them.

I think you are strong and on the right path in enforcing your boundaries. How exactly you wish to communicate this is up to you, and mostly form.

One word of warning though: if you put a lot of effort into explaining why a boundary is important or healthy, and what they should do instead, you are already letting your boundaries become blurry. Same goes for a lot of statements about you still loving them.

The core idea is: you treat me badly, I do my own thing. And you leave them to figure out if they want to put in the effort, and how to do this.

I don't mean this in a malicious way, but in your case setting boundaries is meant to make them feel unsafe, and that they will lose you. Supporting your communication with messages of how you love them and don't want to lose them weakens your message tremendously.

Thank you very much. This makes complete sense intuitively and experientially. The more I say to her the more chance she has to latch on, twist, distort, defend, blame, victimize herself, etc. If I let myself "go there" I end up being pulled in, resulting in frustration and exhaustion. It's a losing game.

In a normal situation, I am all for clear communication and talking things through deeply. But when it comes to setting boundaries in toxic relationships, the less said the better, in my opinion.

That's so true - you just helped me to release a bunch of guilt. I don't need to feel guilty. I am the kind of person who wants clear communication and talking things through deeply. But the context here is different, so acting differently is needed.

[tvda]

You are very welcome. Keep us posted on how things go, and how settings boundaries works out for you. We're here for you.

[truthdevotee]

You are very welcome. Keep us posted on how things go, and how settings boundaries works out for you. We're here for you.

Thanks so much for the loving support.

I set the limit this morning. Initially, when I began speaking, as usual she started dominating and even called my stupid. So I let her know I'm going out to re-park the car and bring in some shopping that I left in the boot. This gave me time to lower my anxiety level. I then sent her a text message as it was clear that the only way to say anything completely and clearly would be in writing (partly due to my own anxiety):

I can't allow myself to stay in a relationship in which I'm name called and even my sexuality is attacked. Since it happened, I just want space.

If name calling continues, I'll need to find an airbnb for one week. I will need to try separating temporarily. Then I'll come back. If it continues after that, I'll do airbnb for two weeks. Depending on situation, we will grow into a co parenting agreement if needed.

It's necessary for the boys to have model of healthy relationship to increase their own chances of having one

Currently I'm teaching them it's OK for their partner to shout and attack

In relation to the family of origin situation. I've learned that it's OK for me to have contact with them. I now know, after having studied the phenomena of mamas boy, what it is and what it is not. Therefore, it's clear crystal clear that it is healthy for me to reestablish contact with FOO. To say that is mother enmeshment simply isn't true according to experts

After you slapped our son the other day, I realised you are in serious need of anger management. You are a fantastic mother but these incidents are too serious to ignore

The name calling towards me is also anger related, and it's out of control

All of this creates a model in the boys minds and they will attract the same relationship in the future

Additionally, by cutting off family of origin, I've been inviting negative karma into my life, such that it increases the chances of the boys cutting future contact with me. I would never want that, and so I now make new decisions

If after reading these messages you want me out of the house, I will do it today. I'm happy to take the boys if you want space to think about things

When I got home, we continued to "talk." It felt strange, but I'm recording all conversations about "heated topics" with a voice recorder on my phone. In another thread I learned that it's OK to do this, I don't need to feel guilty, and I'll use it if needed in the future.

Of course, she continued accusing me of mother enmeshment, but her overall tone was calm. She's now very quiet, which is a good thing. I told her I can take the boys out for lunch and it's OK if she needs time alone at home. She didn't reply...

I feel an immediate freedom to walk around my own home without feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. I feel more solid within my self. Although she has only resisted and accused, she has heard the boundary/limit in clear terms. This is the most important thing - my own sense of conviction and her inability to manipulate me to thinking in her terms. This is new for me. Honestly, I feel great, relieved, and an increase in happiness... I'm ready to take that step out of the house if I need to. I realize that the subtle and invisible abuse/control is not worth it for me, and it's healthier to show the boys even though they are so young that Dad doesn't deserve that, and neither do they in the future.

I'm so grateful for this forum.

[tvda]

Wow TruthDevotee! I am very, VERY proud of you!

And I'm happy that you are feeling the immediate effects of your healthy actions both within yourself and her. I don't tend to see things in a very spiritual light, but one could say that you unblocked a certain positive energy so it can flow again.

The text you sent her was very well composed, I thought. Keep in mind that you are not obliged to explain yourself to her. In other words: if you want to make things lengthy, feel free to do so, but do it for yourself, because you feel the need to speak your truth. Not because you want her to react or realise things a certain way - although this desire is perfectly natural.

I now wish you lots of strength and courage to keep to your boundaries, and the consequences if needed. The reality is very simple: your relationship will only be able to heal is she wishes to do the work. Unfortunately you have no control over this. The only thing you can do is do the right things yourself, and let her figure out what kind of life and person she wishes.

For what it's worth, I am also absolutely 100% positively certain that what you are doing is best for the kids.

[GaGrl]

I agree -- you have given her a clear explanation of your position and your expectations in future. As conversations continue, you can keep communications much more succinct.

 "As I explained before, I will establish an ongoing communication with my family."

She is quiet now. You may have taken her by surprise. Please be aware of and read about a BPD behavior called the "extinction burst." This happens when someone puts a boundary in place, and the pwBPD reacts to that boundary by escalating his or her negative behavior. That could mean raging, abusive language...or being quiet while he/she rages inside and decides on a way to change or challenge the boundary.

Be aware, and be careful.

[truthdevotee]

Wow TruthDevotee! I am very, VERY proud of you!

And I'm happy that you are feeling the immediate effects of your healthy actions both within yourself and her. I don't tend to see things in a very spiritual light, but one could say that you unblocked a certain positive energy so it can flow again.

The text you sent her was very well composed, I thought. Keep in mind that you are not obliged to explain yourself to her. In other words: if you want to make things lengthy, feel free to do so, but do it for yourself, because you feel the need to speak your truth. Not because you want her to react or realise things a certain way - although this desire is perfectly natural.

I now wish you lots of strength and courage to keep to your boundaries, and the consequences if needed. The reality is very simple: your relationship will only be able to heal is she wishes to do the work. Unfortunately you have no control over this. The only thing you can do is do the right things yourself, and let her figure out what kind of life and person she wishes.

For what it's worth, I am also absolutely 100% positively certain that what you are doing is best for the kids.

Thanks so much tvda.

[truthdevotee]

I agree -- you have given her a clear explanation of your position and your expectations in future. As conversations continue, you can keep communications much more succinct.

 "As I explained before, I will establish an ongoing communication with my family."

She is quiet now. You may have taken her by surprise. Please be aware of and read about a BPD behavior called the "extinction burst." This happens when someone puts a boundary in place, and the pwBPD reacts to that boundary by escalating his or her negative behavior. That could mean raging, abusive language...or being quiet while he/she rages inside and decides on a way to change or challenge the boundary.

Be aware, and be careful.

Thanks very much GaGrl for your support and guidance. I will look up the extinction burst and going forward keep my communication succinct.

Yeah, pwBPD has been quiet all day and far more cooperative than usual. It's such a gift that through all of you supportive and knowledgeable people on this forum my life has changed so fast in the last two weeks, after several years of turmoil and confusion.

I'm so happy to be calling my parents again. I'm happy to show them love and I'm happy to be able to make the choices in my heart which for so long I haven't been able to. I've been living in a self made prison cell in response to my pwBPD. This sense of freedom is perhaps the most joyful and relieving thing, the freedom to follow one's own heart

In the past when i attempted boundary setting it would result in immediate rage from my high functioning pwBPD. This is the first time I've ever seen her go quiet like this. Also, I saw her in a tearful moment, but I felt it was important for me not to go and ask about it, comfort and support her, as I would do in the past.

However, based on experience in general I'm aware that she can change dramatically day to day so I'm certain that she will challenge my limits, at some point, probably very soon. So yeah, I'll be aware and cautious and be very prepared to carry out the consequence if needed.

She didn't say anything to me about the messages, that's her usual style and her FOO style. They have a pattern where something negative occurs such as a shouting match and they don't speak about it or apologise, they just wait until the waters have calmed and act is if nothing has happened. So I'll be aware of the potential of that pattern here, pwBPD seeing the situation as "past" and reverting back to old behaviors

[truthdevotee]

Tonight was the first time my pwBPD and I talked since the limit was set.

First 20 minutes felt "new." It was light and non-coercive as we discussed and lightly planned a fun holiday for the summer. The non-coercive feelings seems to come from the separation/individuation that has been occurring. As in, she doesn't quite know who I am anymore, because I feel more self-confident about what my limits are and what I would like in the relationship. Prior to this, everything was all about her desires, needs, and perceptions. Over the last few days, I've made the break, calling my parents and allowing myself to experience my real feelings of desiring distance from her.

After the light 20 minutes, she suddenly shifted into sharing a movie she watched and her perceptions of that movie. I was entirely present (no mobile phone), eye contact, listening, nodding, etc. Deep down I had some nervousness as in the past she has generally shared about stories/movies she's read/watched as a way to indicate how familiar the characters seem and how they echo her negative perceptions of me as selfish, mother enmeshed, etc.

Indeed, after 10 minutes, it all became about "me." I continued silently listening for about 10 minutes, as she shared her perception of me as a mamas boy, that she just has to "sigh and shrug" - "deal with that" - and it may be that she will have to live with it for many years, and several other things regarding her negative perceptions of me such as me being someone she can't share deep feelings with, someone who can't empathize and understand, someone who doesn't truly care about her, etc.

When I shared that I understand her perceptions of me, and there are many things I don't share about her perceptions i.e. I see things differently... it didn't go in a good direction. She reacted. I said that I need to leave the room if her tone continues, and she said "I don't even want you here." So I left...

I think I did a few things wrong. Firstly, I didn't validate / appreciate the sharing, I didn't truly empathize with her pain about me, etc. Also, at one point I said "you've been sharing for 30 minutes with me listening, and when it comes to 1 minute in which I'd like to share something, you don't want to hear it." So that made her feel defensive I'm sure.

I suppose I'm at the end of it... somehow I've just been feeling and embracing the feeling of wanting my own space, and not wanting to be around her when she's in a certain frame of mind. I did say how lovely it was to hear about her perceptions of the movie, and that she's welcome to share her negative perceptions about me, but that I'm a human being who has different thoughts, desires, needs, etc. So I understand myself here too... for several years I'd stay up with her until the early hours of the morning, losing sleep, listening, listening and listening endlessly but with no positive outcomes. It's as if she couldn't / can't see the empathy, understanding and love I'm trying to offer her. And so today I just left when she said "I don't even want you here." In the past, I would have gone and tried to make her feel OK, even though it was a losing game. Tonight, I'm just going to give myself some time to be alone.

How much am I, as her husband, responsible for listening to her? I feel I have listened over the years out of obligation and feeling coerced as she sees it as my responsibility. And I'm sure that's partly the reason why I've not satisfied her. On a logical level, I guess the answer is that I have no responsibility, but out out of true love and desire do I listen to her but also respect my own limits on the level of intensity and rage in her tone & my own tiredness, well-being, sleep, etc. She blames me for not satisfying her need for listening, even though I try so hard, and don't get to share anything in return when I do try. In the past, I stopped trying as my therapist said if I do empathic reflective listening, she'll feel satisfied and will let me share my own perceptions... the thing is, it never did happen. I'd listen for hours after hours endlessly and her energy would only intensify. He didn't know she has high-functioning BPD...

So yeah, I just thought I'd share and also I'm open to any feedback regarding my role as a listener toward my pwBPD, what is appropriate, what is healthy. On an emotional level I suppose I'm still holding some guilt about focusing on my own needs too, which I can let go of. I suppose it's a red flag if I'm ever listening out of a sense of obligation rather than genuine love and desire to help. Unfortunately, she doesn't talk to anybody but me about deep things, so perhaps she sees it as my responsibility and a part of a loving marriage. But I don't want that to continue... and if I play the caretaker role too much then I kind of put a "block" for her to seeking help elsewhere (e.g. through friendships, therapy, etc.)...

I see that I learned growing up to listen to my mother's emotions way way way too much at the expense of my own, so perhaps that plays a part in being easily manipulated into my wife's belief that I should listen to her whenever she needs me to do so. In the past, when I said "I need some space" it didn't go down well as she'd say "YEAH but MY need is to TALK, so who GETS WHAT THEY WANT?"

[truthdevotee]

I just received an SMS from pwBPD:

"I didn't want to continue because I felt you don't have respect for me. The way how you deal with me. I don't feel safe and equal"

With genuine self-reflection, I think I did respect her throughout and patiently listened to her sharing. I sensed she felt I was disrespecting her when I said that I see much of her perceptions of me differently. Her comment about safety... I don't understand. And the equality thing, isn't true for me because I was literally listening with full presence for more than 30 minutes... she had so much space and when I wanted to share something, she didn't want to hear it. But I still have self-doubt that says maybe it's my fault for approaching my time to speak in the wrong way or not showing enough active empathy during her sharing...

[Cat Familiar]

You are under no obligation to sit and listen to yourself being dissed. You can politely excuse yourself when the conversation is going in this direction. “I’ve heard this before. I understand what you think about me. I’m not interested in hearing it again.”
(I tend to be more direct than polite. I’m sure you can word it in a way that comes across more smoothly.)

If she is accusing you of being a “momma’s boy” and you are willing to sit there and listen to that abuse, you are kinda proving her point. Make sense?

I think she’s doing a lot of projecting her negative feelings on you. 

And here’s an idea about the not feeling safe issue. If you let her behave abusively to you, instead of standing up for yourself, perhaps she questions how “safe” you’d keep her from whatever she fears. What do you think?

[tvda]

TruthDevotee, everything in the way you write, and what you write just SCREAMS that you are an extremely sincere, diligent, careful, caring, open-to-her-perspective, introspective, fair, giving, listening, balanced person.

No wait. I take that last part back. You strive for balance, but you are actually very unbalanced: please take it from an outsider. Going on what you write, when you think you carry 50% of the blame, you probably carry 1% of the blame. When you think you are completely at fault, you are probably 5% at fault.

I think years of abuse have completely skewed your perception of the situation. You need to develop an inner voice that instinctively KNOWS the truth. There a spark of this in what you write already. Explore this spark. You KNOW the truth man. You know how effed up this is, and that she is completely out of line.

Can I ask you something? Where is your anger? How long has it been since you were really, really angry? Even under so much abuse, so still sound so caring, calm and collected. That's not right. It may appear noble, but it is not. You are not protecting yourself, and you are giving yourself away to someone who is bad for you.

My therapist once told me people like us have a big problem caring for ourselves and setting our limits. We can do this for others, but not ourselves. So we need to imagine a scenario to sort of 'feel' the right thing.

Imagine if she was your son's partner. And she was treating your son this way. What would you tell your son? I think you'd tell him to "run, don't walk". Well, you need to care for yourself the way you would for your son.

So, how does this figure into your boundaries and the week at the AirBNB? Write down what your limit is, so you can consult this later. And if she crosses the limit, leave for a week. It's time for healthy boundaries, and it's about time for some love for yourself - and for some anger towards people who abuse you.

For all clarity: when I talk about anger I am talking about a healthy dose of "I've had it!" internal energy. No violence. No lashing out. For all I care she doesn't even have to notice it. As long as YOU feel it inside when it is justified.

[khibomsis]

Dear truthdevotee, you have made great strides so far! In just two weeks  :)What you just witnessed was a major dysregulation. By the sound of it too far gone to stop.
In the beginning I used to try and do what you did. Many's the night I have spent awake in circular conversations! These days when I see it coming I try to deflect. If done quickly - a joke, something shiny, it may work. If not indeed it will blow up and you did right in walking away. Release the FOG. If anything forgive yourself for exposing you to abuse, because I started walking away when the negative comments about me started, lest I got triggered. Two of us acting crazy does not help
Walking away deprives the fire of oxygen. There is no point in muttering negative comments about you to herself. The texts were a plea for attention. Since she could not get a rise out of you with criticism, the. stake increased to a threat of abandonment
Look, she has been used to managing her emotional states by attacking you and controlling you. Now you are refusing to do it and are feeling better for the first time in years. She is feeling worse because she has to manage her own emotions. That is bound to create some resentment. Expect the weather to be stormy.
You are in a difficult transitional period. After a long period of weak boundaries, you are setting them. There will be pushback. She had it too good to not fight for the past to return.
We all fail even with the tools now and then. We are human. The next time you will walk away the minute you realize she dysregulating and spare yourself the pain. A tactful comment like : "I see you are hurting, baby, let me go away so I stop triggering you and maybe we can talk about this tomorrow", or even better," What a shame that you are so unhappy. Come on love let me give you a massage and see if that will help ,we'll figure this out in the morning." may allow for a quiet exit. You love a difficult person. There are times it will be difficult. Go to bed, focus on selfcare and work. She will do what she will do.
Your thought train around your mother sounded really fruitful. The less you listen to dysregulation the more time you will have to better understand yourself. You are a decent human being doing his best. Cut yourself some slack. You are absolutely right that both relationships must heal for you to be whole.
 

[truthdevotee]

You are under no obligation to sit and listen to yourself being dissed. You can politely excuse yourself when the conversation is going in this direction. “I’ve heard this before. I understand what you think about me. I’m not interested in hearing it again.”
(I tend to be more direct than polite. I’m sure you can word it in a way that comes across more smoothly.)

I will do this... that sentence is perfect as I'm learning to be more succinct and to the point in my communication with her, limiting opportunities to latch on and argue.

Thank you...

If she is accusing you of being a “momma’s boy” and you are willing to sit there and listen to that abuse, you are kinda proving her point. Make sense?

It's amazing that I've come to the point that I'm even unaware that it was disrespect. I think I've focused so much on self-development and, having the tendency to 'introject' feelings/thoughts/opinions of others... I've lost track of what is abuse and what isn't abuse. It's sad and crazy.

It's so helpful to have this group to help me recognize that I am even being abused in this instance.

I hadn't categorized the "mamas boy" comment in the same way as the general abusive name-calling (e.g. "stupid," "idiot," "fat," "mentally sick," etc. etc.), which recently I set a boundary on and said if it happens again I will leave the house for a week.

But now I see that - yes - it is abusive and I've heard it 10000 times and... I don't want it anymore. It's tiring and it's the same old "discussion" 10000 times.

It's amazing to me that I missed that this is indeed abusive to sit and be disrespected. I don't need to be on the receiving end of this even if it is coming from my wife.

Without the forum's help I just wouldn't see it. It's as if I don't have the self-confidence yet in my own perceptions as I'm escaping this maze. Having had severe to moderate OCD over the last 10 years, it makes sense as OCD is historically labelled "the doubting disease."

I think she’s doing a lot of projecting her negative feelings on you. 

Yeah... the way I know this is true is that so often the things she blames me for are true about her i.e. "you don't empathize or listen to me" = "I don't empathize or listen to myself or you"

And here’s an idea about the not feeling safe issue. If you let her behave abusively to you, instead of standing up for yourself, perhaps she questions how “safe” you’d keep her from whatever she fears. What do you think?

Wow... that's a big insight. Would this mean it's almost an unconscious "test?" i.e. she tests me by treating me badly how much I'll take it, and ironically feels safe if I decline to be pushed around by her?

[truthdevotee]

I think years of abuse have completely skewed your perception of the situation. You need to develop an inner voice that instinctively KNOWS the truth. There a spark of this in what you write already. Explore this spark. You KNOW the truth man. You know how effed up this is, and that she is completely out of line.

It's such a perfect statement - "you need to develop an inner voice that instinctively KNOWS the truth..."

My experience with OCD which I'm currently medicated for is really an internal experience of the outer experience I have with my pwBPD. On the interior level, I've been pushed around and abused by the harsh superego; on the exterior level, I've been pushed around and abused by my pwBPD's harsh superego!

It's such a true statement that my healing is to KNOW the truth within myself.

Can I ask you something? Where is your anger? How long has it been since you were really, really angry? Even under so much abuse, so still sound so caring, calm and collected. That's not right. It may appear noble, but it is not. You are not protecting yourself, and you are giving yourself away to someone who is bad for you.

Thanks for helping me become clear about this. That she is actually bad for me. My levels of self-doubt (and probably other deeper hidden psychological issues) have been such that I've not even seen that she's bad for me.

On the conscious level, I have been angry, I've attacked her back over the years (once I spilled milk all over the hallway floor and left the house, another time I ripped up a paper calendar, etc.), I've pushed and tried to get her to open her eyes... that is, on some level - I have seen what's occurring and the anger has sometimes been intense.

My sponsors/therapist perhaps didn't notice what really happened. I learned through their guidance to become level-headed, to observe from a detached perspective, to love unconditionally (even though I felt like I was always failing because I'd feel so much resentment all the time).

But through all of this, the situation never healed. It's only in coming here to the forum that it's all becoming clear. It's true that I am the solution, but not by endlessly changing myself on an inner level. Rather this is about realizing when somebody is treating me awfully and learning to recognize that, and not allow it.

It's only since arriving here, with your support (I am SO SO grateful), that after so many years of pain and inner anguish, I'm tasting freedom. It feels so, so, so good. I could cry it feels so freeing. My anxiety levels are dropping as on a deeper and deeper level I have the confidence (through all of you) to say on an interior level to my pwBPD "it's not my responsibility to make you feel better"

My therapist once told me people like us have a big problem caring for ourselves and setting our limits. We can do this for others, but not ourselves. So we need to imagine a scenario to sort of 'feel' the right thing.

Imagine if she was your son's partner. And she was treating your son this way. What would you tell your son? I think you'd tell him to "run, don't walk". Well, you need to care for yourself the way you would for your son.

Wow... profound, profound. I will use this immediately!

So, how does this figure into your boundaries and the week at the AirBNB? Write down what your limit is, so you can consult this later. And if she crosses the limit, leave for a week. It's time for healthy boundaries, and it's about time for some love for yourself - and for some anger towards people who abuse you.

For all clarity: when I talk about anger I am talking about a healthy dose of "I've had it!" internal energy. No violence. No lashing out. For all I care she doesn't even have to notice it. As long as YOU feel it inside when it is justified.

Wow... yeah, I understand what you mean about anger. I've had very unhealthy levels of anger over the years and experienced many many times that becoming a dictator toward her is a losing game and a dead end.

But to feel that truth and protectiveness on an inner level, I haven't done that for myself.

Thank you so much. I will focus on this.

I'll share soon my new boundary today after I have time to think about it more deeply.

[truthdevotee]

Dear truthdevotee, you have made great strides so far! In just two weeks  :)What you just witnessed was a major dysregulation. By the sound of it too far gone to stop.
In the beginning I used to try and do what you did. Many's the night I have spent awake in circular conversations! These days when I see it coming I try to deflect. If done quickly - a joke, something shiny, it may work. If not indeed it will blow up and you did right in walking away. Release the FOG. If anything forgive yourself for exposing you to abuse, because I started walking away when the negative comments about me started, lest I got triggered. Two of us acting crazy does not help
Walking away deprives the fire of oxygen. There is no point in muttering negative comments about you to herself. The texts were a plea for attention. Since she could not get a rise out of you with criticism, the. stake increased to a threat of abandonment
Look, she has been used to managing her emotional states by attacking you and controlling you. Now you are refusing to do it and are feeling better for the first time in years. She is feeling worse because she has to manage her own emotions. That is bound to create some resentment. Expect the weather to be stormy.

Thanks so much, really helpful for me to hear your experience and strengthen my confidence and do even better next time i.e. maintaining inner harmony and deflecting/leaving as soon as I see the dysregulation starting. I noticed the moment when she shifted into dysregulation... there was a specific moment where the balance shifted.

The day after I set the boundary on name calling, pwBPD was quiet and cooperative all day. That had never happened before. She felt tired, lethargic, achy and said she felt pain in her chest. I felt an underlying blame towards me about the chest pain, as she insinuated that I "caused" it due to my behavior (i.e. boundary setting). Over the years she's used physical aches and pains as a way to trigger my guilt so I'm submissive to her demands. But yeah the physical symptoms she was having seemed to be related to me declining to accept to take on the pain of her blame/anger/criticism. By choosing not to receive it and putting the boundary in place, it seems she was then left to deal with the emotional pain. I noticed the same old urge within myself to "help her" but after many years of experience I see that I'm not actually able to help. I just need to make my own choices, be generally supportive, but not cross the line into caretaking and enabling.

You are in a difficult transitional period. After a long period of weak boundaries, you are setting them. There will be pushback. She had it too good to not fight for the past to return.
We all fail even with the tools now and then. We are human. The next time you will walk away the minute you realize she dysregulating and spare yourself the pain. A tactful comment like : "I see you are hurting, baby, let me go away so I stop triggering you and maybe we can talk about this tomorrow", or even better," What a shame that you are so unhappy. Come on love let me give you a massage and see if that will help ,we'll figure this out in the morning." may allow for a quiet exit. You love a difficult person. There are times it will be difficult. Go to bed, focus on selfcare and work. She will do what she will do.

Thanks very much for these helpful insights/suggestions.

Your thought train around your mother sounded really fruitful. The less you listen to dysregulation the more time you will have to better understand yourself. You are a decent human being doing his best. Cut yourself some slack. You are absolutely right that both relationships must heal for you to be whole.
 

Thank you so much. Feeling so much deep gratitude from all the love and support here.

[formflier]

I'm still learning about boundary setting and setting limits - not yet set limits around name calling as I need to plan it carefully e.g. what the consequence will be and ensuring it's a consequence I can follow through with at all times.
 

The problem with going quiet with her for a prolonged time period is that it eventually gets to her. Plus, it's not mature from my side and I hope with the building of the skills from the books and on this forum, I can overcome this "quiet resentment" completely.
 

Can I make a guess that you and I are both members of the "overthinkers" club?   With BPD there are so many possibilities to consider...

Which is why I'll offer the following advice..

Make it about you...not BPD.

I don't do name calling...period..end of story.

If there is name calling, I'm going to take a time out and leave THAT conversation.

OK...that's actually pretty simple although I totally realize that once you start dealing with responses from a pwBPD it can get complicated...if you let it.

your pwBPD:  blah blah blah you (name calling)..blah blah blah

you:  (let your shock and emotion come through) " Oh my!  Name calling doesn't work.  Let's take a break"

your pwBPD:  blah blah blah (name calling)...you wimp..blah blah blah

you:  "I won't have conversations when name calling comes between us. I'm taking a break, back in 10 minutes." (then go get a glass of water, step out onto porch and breathe deeply)  Seriously...10 minutes of intense self focus and relaxation.

Then go back with the firm realization that you are done with THAT conversation.  You are now holding open the door for different ones..neutral ones.

you:  "Hey...check out this fish thing on facebook.  Want to try it for dinner?"

if your pwBPD insists on name calling again or returning to the same old conversation..wash rinse repeat on the above.  If no name calling but insistence of dealing with same subject  "This subject is obviously important to you.  I want to be at my best for you.  Let's discuss it more over brunch..tomorrow."

What stands out to you in the "flow" of communications I'm proposing?

Best,

FF

[truthdevotee]

Can I make a guess that you and I are both members of the "overthinkers" club?   With BPD there are so many possibilities to consider...

Hehehe, it's true  my 12 step group used to be called Overthinkers Anonymous until the name was changed to Self-centered Anonymous. My sponsor always tells me to give up the overthinking!

Wow I just realized how cool some of these emoticons are on the forum 

Which is why I'll offer the following advice..

Make it about you...not BPD.

I don't do name calling...period..end of story.

If there is name calling, I'm going to take a time out and leave THAT conversation.

OK...that's actually pretty simple although I totally realize that once you start dealing with responses from a pwBPD it can get complicated...if you let it.

your pwBPD:  blah blah blah you (name calling)..blah blah blah

you:  (let your shock and emotion come through) " Oh my!  Name calling doesn't work.  Let's take a break"

your pwBPD:  blah blah blah (name calling)...you wimp..blah blah blah

you:  "I won't have conversations when name calling comes between us. I'm taking a break, back in 10 minutes." (then go get a glass of water, step out onto porch and breathe deeply)  Seriously...10 minutes of intense self focus and relaxation.

Then go back with the firm realization that you are done with THAT conversation.  You are now holding open the door for different ones..neutral ones.

you:  "Hey...check out this fish thing on facebook.  Want to try it for dinner?"

if your pwBPD insists on name calling again or returning to the same old conversation..wash rinse repeat on the above.  If no name calling but insistence of dealing with same subject  "This subject is obviously important to you.  I want to be at my best for you.  Let's discuss it more over brunch..tomorrow."

What stands out to you in the "flow" of communications I'm proposing?

Best,

FF

Thanks for making it clear and simple for me - it helps. Yeah, I understand, this is about my limits... what I desire for my own life... I never realized I could have this freedom.

What stands out is the authenticity of the emotional response, and the perfectly natural moving away from the conversation, plus the resolute conviction "nah, this ain't for me." I think it's that resolute conviction that I'm building through working with you all on the forum. It's like I didn't know what was right or what was wrong but since I have this intense desire to do what is right all the time (verging into unhealthy OCD territory), I would do whatever I was instructed by my sponsors. Bit by bit - bit by bit by bit - over the last few years I'm slowly learning following intuition and gut. Using these parts of myself mostly in work life, but not yet in the relationship until now through all of you here.

The other thing that stands out is the fun, light, chilled out talk about FB and fish and dinner... that's what marriage is supposed to look like. Two individuated people having a good time sharing their lives with each other and being of mutual support. My pwBPD always wants 'deep talks' which I'm all for, but I think 'deep talks' are mostly a cover up for making herself feel better by unloading onto me.

Thanks FF