I suppose it's about time...yelling and obscenities from basement

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's been a while since FFw has had a blowout dysregulation...I suppose tonight is the night.  Hopefully she will get it all out and be nicer tomorrow.

Lots of F bombs...if I heard right she is complaining about lack of Bible study and throwing lots of G Dams in there.

So..for about 30 minutes it's been 3-4 minutes of quiet...and rant for about a minute, then 3-4 min of quiet.  Wash rinse repeat.

Sigh...glad I can only actually make out about a 1/3 of it.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

It's been a while since FFw has had a blowout dysregulation...I suppose tonight is the night.  Hopefully she will get it all out and be nicer tomorrow.

Lots of F bombs...if I heard right she is complaining about lack of Bible study and throwing lots of G Dams in there.

So..for about 30 minutes it's been 3-4 minutes of quiet...and rant for about a minute, then 3-4 min of quiet.  Wash rinse repeat.

Sigh...glad I can only actually make out about a 1/3 of it.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

she is complaining about lack of Bible study

Of anyone in particular, or just in general? Not that it matters.

Kids doing OK? Distracted or otherwise engaged?

Is it too late to take the dogs for a walk?

Sorry it's happening. Not what you want for your W or family.

[formflier]

The Bible study thing hasn't come up in a while.  Let's just say we are unable to compromise on what is "acceptable content", so I have decided not to participate.

I'm not going to give any validation whatsoever to the thought of judging others, figuring out who is and isn't a Christian..uggg.

I got a decent nights sleep.  D15 bore the brunt of it (I would guess) because I think my wife slept down there with her and D15 apparently was present for the entire thing.  Sadly this means she likely "heard it all" without the benefit of walls to muffle things.

My wife hasn't emerged yet...

Time for that second cup of coffee...

Best,

FF

[Fian]

Just curious.  Swearing is incompatible with a Christian life.  Does your wife do it routinely, or just when she dysregulates?

[formflier]

It's a marker of dysregulation or something she really has an emotional connection with.

So..last night was "classic" dysregulation.

There are times when she seems composed but cares very deeply on an emotional level about something...and a word will come out.

But...to your point Fian, it's one of those things that shows you the power of dysregulation that moves you into doing things that "aren't you".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Oh..and sadly it will likely move into today.  She just emerged and took a route to get to our bathroom that minimized her "exposure" to me. 

I said a cheery "hey..!" and she had a very formal "good morning" for me (unusual for her yet usual when she has been on a tear and is trying to compose herself)

Sigh..

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

What do you think is the underlying issue?

[formflier]

Sometimes you can tell from what "lit the fuse".

In this case I had asked if we could have some no tv time in the living room, so she and I could just hangout.

She responded if we could have no computer time as well.

I said "sure...I do need to be productive at some point tonight (lovely spreadsheets) but can do that now or later, which do you prefer?"  (as in do we want to turn everything off now or just have on computers now... or?)

She seems to have switched at this point and started alleging that I didn't care about her working and if she wanted to "sit on her azz" after working 60 hours or 80 hours (her number keeps changing)...then she was going to do it, and my ask for quiet obviously meant I didn't appreciate her.. (you get the flavor)

I made an attempt or two at validation and and calm conversation..really didn't go anywhere.

Bicker bicker

me "Hey FFw, my attempt here is to schedule undistracted time for us..together...right now.  Let's stay present and solve this."

maybe it toned down a bit

bicker bicker

me" Hey..it seems this isn't going to be solved this evening."

her "Why can't you just go into our room if you need quiet"

me "well..I would be sad because of being apart from you, yet I can do that if needed to solve this tonight."

Her :  really was no answer

me:  "Ok..I'll find my own quiet time."

her :  dysreg started with lots of you think this, you did this because...you did that because..

me (probably a mistake)  I exited our room to get a glass of water and as I was going back let her know if she was interested in my motivations or reasoning, I was available to share..

her  launched some more choice stuff, shut off the tv and then headed down stairs.  Maybe she realized she was being somewhat ridiculous..not sure.  Basically she was giving up the living room for my quiet time.

Then after maybe 10 minutes downstairs the yelling would start.  Go a minute or two and then die out.  Wait a period of time..start again...then die out.

Eventually she came upstairs, and said something along the lines of "you probably should move closer to the door to get all of that."

me "All of what?"

her : slammed the door and went back downstairs.  maybe 20 more minutes of the yell, take a break..yell and then it was quiet.

Long way of saying...I'm not sure but I think she was saying she works hard, I do not..etc etc.

Best,

FF

[Goosey]

I read a lot about how to handle those situations. Never actually got the chance to try them. No one is listening at a certain point.
  So sorry your dealing with this. And sorry for their illness.
  I feel guilty. I’ve been through all that and worse as I’m sure you have and I’m just sitting by the fire with the dogs and it’s all quiet. I wonder constantly what she is doing but I’m sure I really don’t want to know or deal with it anymore.
It’s classic damned if you do damned if you don’t. Exhausting crap.
   I here the country song lines in my head “what’s she doing now?”  Why do I ponder? 
  Stay calm. Stay out of the fight. I hope it passes and or you can get some time away from it.

[formflier]

The theory that I "use" is that once there is a no kidding dysregulation, step back and let it burn out.  Basically I should not add fuel to the fire.

So far my one "error" is saying something snippy to her when I exited the bedroom to get water.  I'm sure by then I was "lacking in nice tone".

Who knows.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Sometime after church/lunch (virtual church) things almost got back to normal and then this evening, you would never know...

Is this success...?

I suppose it works.

Sigh.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

My marriage started deeply religious, hey we were religious volunteers for several years.  At first in the early years she would have wordless episodes, I thought they were "rages from past child abuse".  But about 4 years in she had a bit of trauma where she didn't feel as safe anymore (NYC location didn't help) and every few months she'd curse worse than a sailor.

I asked her once where she learned the language, her abuser stepfather always spoke in his native language with me but she was cursing in solid English.  She confirmed to me he didn't use English when he cursed.  So I would agree, cursing and dysregulation go hand in hand.  And of course afterward... it never happened.

I almost forgot to add... Just before we separated we visited the pediatrician.  He recommended some counselors.  She rejected, said she had the Bible.  Sad reality, even people who like the Bible can still benefit from therapy.

[formflier]

But about 4 years in she had a bit of trauma where she didn't feel as safe anymore (NYC location didn't help) and every few months she'd curse worse than a sailor.
 

This resonates.

Now that I understand more about the dynamics at play, I can see "hints" in the early part of our marriage.

Married in 1994...BPDish stuff showed up in 2008 after a major trauma.  A flood made us live off our farm for about 6 months.

I "went one way" psychologically and she went the other.  I clung to "reality", which deeply invalidated her for many years..while paranoia grew...fed by invalidation.

Things are much better now, yet from time to time..."it" shows back up.  

A deep sadness of mine is that our "Christian marriage" has largely disappeared.  I used to be a guy that "if there was a doubt if I should ask forgiveness..."  there is no doubt..so ask.  

It started to be "triggering" to her and to be honest, I still don't understand it...yet the correlation is undeniable.

I was not in the best shape on a Sunday morning and got behind in leadership (as in could have nipped some kid issues in the bud)...so stronger measures were required later.  Later that day when we had private time I brought it up and asked forgiveness...

She started using the lord's name in vain...cackling like a witch and some other light cursing, kinda returning to using the lord's name in vain a couple times.

She had displayed hints of this a few times before and this time when I asked for clarification, she denied it happened, made herself out to be a saint..etc etc.

I haven't asked her forgiveness since then and doubt I ever will again...

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

She responded if we could have no computer time as well

As in, "Hey, let's go no computers, too"

or more like

"what do you think, yes/no to computers?"

[formflier]

I think the first exact phrase (went back and forth a bit) was something like

"and you will turn off your computer too?"  (but...like a prosecutor question...not curious)

Basically we are both on couch being quiet and both working on computers..I needed quiet and focus.

TV had been on most of the day.

She started to turn TV back on (no ask) and so I tried to sort out the possibilities for us to remain together and both have focus...also to have quiet together time (in my mind after we got our work done)...and if she wanted to watch more tv..fine.

When I attempted clarification of "our" computers...she started messing around with timeframe.  She said something to the effect of "I have a job..if I need to do work..I'm going to do it."  I tried some sort of redirection to "right now".."tonight"

She seemed to bristle at any attempt to limit her complaints..discussion.

Eventually..it went completely off the rails.

Most likely I would be money ahead if I had declared earlier..that it didn't seem like we could solve tonight and I would handle my own quiet time apart from her (what I eventually did).

Long answer...but it really wasn't like either of your examples.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Note:  My recollection now is that she "prosecutered first"...however, it could have been different.

I honestly wasn't paying attention/engaged at first, because it seemed like such a simple thing.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Sometimes you can tell from what "lit the fuse".

In this case I had asked if we could have some no tv time in the living room, so she and I could just hangout.

She responded if we could have no computer time as well.

Maybe she experienced "no tv so we can hang out" as a bid. As in (metaphorically) turn toward one another (versus continuing on computers)?

Then she checked further (prosecutor) and "no tv so we can hang out" was "FF needs to work"

Instead of "hey, bait and switch here" and "that hurt" she launches into "it's all about FF"

Which translates into "FF is one up, FFw is one down."

Cue escalation.

[formflier]

I hadn't though  of it that way...but I see it.

I get her to read Gottman with me every once in a while.  I like to read it and it makes things more clear sometimes.

I'll have to ponder that angle a bit more..

Best,

FF

[Purplerain23]

Maybe she experienced "no tv so we can hang out" as a bid. As in (metaphorically) turn toward one another (versus continuing on computers)?

Then she checked further (prosecutor) and "no tv so we can hang out" was "FF needs to work"

Instead of "hey, bait and switch here" and "that hurt" she launches into "it's all about FF"

Which translates into "FF is one up, FFw is one down."

Cue escalation.

FF when I first read your dilemma I too thought about it as a perceived bid ... such as intimate connection time, no screens just the two of you connecting.

Knowing PwBPD she took the stance “ my work is important too ... ect “ to protect herself from the embarrassment and shame that she was feeling . Intimacy is so hard for them. Maybe she felt that she was vulnerable  and open to that time together and when you revealed it was about the two of you working side to side she went into a rage because it felt like manipulation? Since you know gottman if you were to use the “ aftermath of a fight “exercise Do you think she would participate?

[formflier]

She seems to love reading about Gottman, but seems resistant to putting it into action.

For instance, Gottman recommends being thoughtful about the following question after conflict.

"What conversation should we have had?" (paraphrase)

There is an assumption that most conflict is miscommunication in the above question. 

She will answer that question when she can say "We should talk about why you are such as azzhole"...she will not answer the question when there could be an honest miscommunication or the answer is something like "We should talk about how to handle willful and malicious twisting of our partners words" or really anything that is "how to repair the impact of me"

Uggg...

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

What would happen if you had that conversation internally and spoke your part (out loud) to her?

Like when she is at baseline.

Is she receptive to you being vulnerable (to whatever degree you feel is safe)?

As in, FF: "I realized I ______ when I meant to ______."

Full stop, just deposit that.

Are you guys able to do that?

[formflier]

"more often than not"...she is not receptive.  From time to time she is.

Perhaps it is the kind of "intermittent reinforcement" that keeps me engaged or trying.

I'm up for continuing to try.

The frustrating part is that it's very hard to tell when "she is a little bit warm".  In other words...normal is she is perfect wife... receptive to these types of conversations..up until she isn't, with no warning. 

Sigh

Best,

FF

[empath]

My h liked Gottman, too, or part of his work. H really focused on the idea of bids; I was supposed to respond to his bids. In h's thought, it didn't matter if I had other commitments or if the bid was something that I had told him I was not okay with. He also didn't understand that I was making bids often.

I think Gottman is really good when both partners have positive regard for one another - and are not nursing deep seated contempt for the other person.

[formflier]

So...could your husband conceptualize that you would also make bids that he might "miss"?

How would he talk about that?

My wife tends to be able to have calm conversations about that kind of thing "generally", but if you try and relate it to "that conversation 3 nights ago" (anything specific)...the excuses usually come out.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I think Gottman is really good when both partners have positive regard for one another - and are not nursing deep seated contempt for the other person

That's a good point.

What happens when the contempt is part of a period of dysregulation? Versus, say, chronic contempt.

[formflier]

I can certainly say that my wife has less contempt (or sometimes none) for me when she is normal...than compared to years ago.

When she gets fired up it is still there. 

Hard to say if it isn't as bad when she is fired up because of learning tools or she isn't as bad or probably a combination of all of it.

Best,

FF

[empath]

So...could your husband conceptualize that you would also make bids that he might "miss"?

How would he talk about that?

He would reject the idea that they were bids. He could talk in general terms about the idea, but he had a hard time with any context in which he had missed an opportunity for connection and would sometimes blame me.

[formflier]

Could he separate the idea of "he thinks they are bids" and "you think what you are doing are bids?"

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Hard to say if it isn't as bad when she is fired up because of learning tools or she isn't as bad or probably a combination of all of it.

Do you mean the tools you learned? 

Or she learned?

[formflier]

Do you mean the tools you learned? 

Or she learned?

Both.

I learn and will talk about them more explicitly..more open about how they apply to me.

Imagine my shock when FFw comes home and wants to talk about workshops about how "to prevent your amygdala from running away when upsetting things happen"

no lie..it happened

FFw "because this is going to help me keep the kids in my class under control..."

 


Then I notice that she is using tools...not that she "needed to"...or "had a problem before"

Sigh..

Best,

FF