Need advice: uBPD sister wants to meet up in person after 6 years of NC

[GreenGlit]

Hi fam,
6 years ago I had a massive fallout with my historically dysfunctional family around my wedding. In summary, I set up a boundary (no kids at my 20 minute ceremony, but my sister's kids were welcome in all our pictures and the reception), and they escalated the punishment. My sister, who is used to throwing increasingly loud tantrums until she gets her way, did just that - up until she only had one card left to play: not coming to the wedding. She was supposed to be my maid of honor. By the time she told me she was out, it was such a relief to me. I never spoke to her again, and have spent years in therapy trying to manage the hurt I felt from the intentional malicious behavior from my sister.

The reality is I fear her. She is emotionally violent. She has said some of the most hurtful things anyone has ever said to me. She has a history of kicking me when I'm down. She is also a master manipulator. I have mourned her loss and moved on, and have built a great life for myself without her.

Yesterday she text me - our first contact in 6 years. She wants to drive up 2 hours to meet me in a nearby park. I said that me and my husband (my amazing rock through all of this) would be free. She said no, just her and me. She jokes around saying things like "I'll be nice I promise. I say that jokingly." She references how this is a "big step for her to take, because there is still a lot of hurt there for me" but wants to initiate potential change. She references her hurt, but not mine.

In a moment of weakness I agreed to her terms. The meet date is 1 week away and already I am consumed with anxiety. I know she wants something from me. But I don't want to be the person who rejects her efforts. But...why not include my husband? Why choose to insist on meeting up in person after 6 years of NC instead of starting with smaller steps? I'm afraid if I back out and ask for slower advancements she will go away, which will prove to me that she wasn't here for reconciliation, but because she wanted something from me.

I don't think it's a coincidence that her desire to meet me coincides with me starting my first real career. I'm a doctor, and just finished training, making my first high-paying job. I don't expect she'd ever ask me for money, but my role in the family was always expected to be taking care of my parents, and it was known that I'd likely make more than my sister, who has a hard time keeping a job because of her personality. My friend looked up her old condo located in my city on Zillow - turns out it's been on the market for 7 days. Now I am questioning this "grand gesture" and suspect she is here preparing the condo for showings, and is using the trip as an opportunity to meet with me also, at a park conveniently walking distance from the condo. All of this...likely a manipulation to give me the semblance of hope. So she can...get something from me. I think.

I don't know what she wants. Of course I am curious but I am also unstable around her. I am vulnerable around her. I fear her. I don't know how to ask her for less, and don't know how to deal with the possibility of having to be rejected all over again if I ask for smaller steps and she declines angrily. Please help.

[Onyx22]

My advice is: Don't go alone.
Also, if possible, start with conversations over the phone. It's much easier to hang up a phone than to walk away from someone if things go sour.

She knows she can control you better if you don't have support with you. I believe that's why she doesn't want your husband included.

I have a therapist who treats BPD, people who care about someone with BPD and also has a BPD family member. And she says she still will start agreeing with that person to have them come over/... and has to have that support from her husband in order to say no. Even with her experience, it's really hard to say no when it's someone close. It's important to keep your support system, especially in situations like this.

By your words, you have built a great life for yourself without her. Remind yourself of that, you deserve that. I think if you have to step on eggshells to reconcile, then you're giving her control over your life that she shouldn't have.

Have some strong and clear boundaries if you meet her, and an exit strategy.

[Sunflower45]

GreenGlit, do you want to see your sister or have some contact? If not, you are perfectly within your rights to tell her you changed your mind and do not want to see her. It sounds like you are making decisions based on what she might do or think and in hopes of affecting her behavior. But what if you accept that her feelings and her behavior are her responsibility rather than yours? What if you assume she will be pissed at you no matter what, and that’s ok? What do you want for you?

[GaGrl]

I agree that you should slow down and not meet with her one-on-one.

You are very perceptive when you notice that she speaks of her hurt/pain but not yours.

You certainly can send a text or email mail along the lines of, "Upon reflection, I think it best that we have a few phone calls before meetong, and I would be most comfortable meeting with my husband with me."

You don't owe her any explanation for your preferences. You know -- and just keep repeating to yourself -- that she is not emotionally safe to be around.

[Methuen]

Another echo of agreement with previous members posts here.  That little voice at the back of your head telling you this doesn't feel right, is there for a reason.  It's probably a good idea to listen to that voice.  Others have given great advice here.

First decide if you genuinely want to meet with her.  Try to set aside FOG and baggage.  What do you want for you?  Is this the right time for you?

If the answer is no, then send an email and say the timing now doesn't work for you.  You will be in touch when that changes.  (Maybe you never get in touch, and that's ok too).

If the answer is yes, then GaGrl's suggested email is awesome.  It communicates the truth.  It also sets a boundary, and makes you the driver of your own life, not her. She is trying to control the meeting. It doesn't sound like her past behavior gives her any right to do that.  If she is genuinely contrite about the past, she will be totally ok with this.  Remember that she has reached out to you.   You are an autonomous person and get to set your own terms for who you meet, where, when, why, and how.  Listen to that voice at the back of your head.  Take someone with you.  Feel safe.

[Notwendy]

Trust your gut...


I'm afraid if I back out and ask for slower advancements she will go away, which will prove to me that she wasn't here for reconciliation, but because she wanted something from me.

I wonder why you fear this? I know it would be hurtful, but if it would bring her motives into the light- wouldn't you want to know up front? I actually think this might be a good idea. You back out, tell you would feel more confortable if you could talk on the phone first. If she were sincere about a relationship with you, she'd respect this boundary. It is a boundary after all. If not- then you know who you are dealing with.

Congrats on the first job as a new doctor!

[GreenGlit]

Thank you for the replies. I took the advice here and listened to the voice in the back of my head. Even re-reading my own post, it seems obvious the meet-up in person is a bad idea. I agree that her move to get me alone without my support is intentional and feels manipulative.

I texted her that I thought about it and decided I'm not ready to meet in person, and that I would be ok to phone call or zoom. She insisted that the "in-person" meet up is better because there is "context" that gets lost over the phone. That it's "more personal." That doesn't make much sense to me but regardless, I suggested a zoom video call instead. She agreed. At this point I'm convinced she wants something specific because she agreed to my terms - I don't have many memories of her doing that.

To answer some of the questions of whether I actually want to talk to her again, and what my goals are:
My initial goal was to avoid giving her ammunition to say "Well I reached out and she didn't want to move on and rebuild, so this is her fault." But the reality is she will construct whatever narrative she wants regardless of my behavior and my efforts, so I can't make choices based on that. I also have already spent YEARS making consistent efforts to reconnect before I moved on. The last time I saw her was nearly 2 years ago at my grandmother's funeral. As an effort to reconnect, I brought her a beautifully restored picture of my grandmother and her sisters - a picture nobody had ever seen before (I acquired it on a trip to our family's home country). She refused to greet me, took the picture I handed to her, folded it in half, and crumpled it into her purse. A very obvious "F*** you" if I ever saw one.

I don't know if I want a relationship with her. As things stand now, she is toxic and has been hurtful beyond any boundaries I have now as an adult. I doubt much has changed for her. But it's been 6 years and I am not the same person I was the last time we knew each other, and perhaps she isn't either. I'd like to leave space for the possibility of change, while also bracing myself for rejection and disappointment again.

We meet this Friday evening. I plan on communicating a few key things:
- her behavior at my grandmother's funeral was an unquestionable message that she continues to want nothing to do with me, and that was extremely hurtful especially when I made an effort to share a gift.
- what changed between the funeral and now that made her reconsider things and want to reach out?
- what are her goals and how does she see us moving forward here?
- how does she see my husband fitting into all of this? This is a hard line for me. I can't realistically have a healthy relationship with anyone that rejects my spouse and refuses to include them or acknowledge them.

If there are any other suggestions of how to navigate this, I'm happy to hear them.

[GaGrl]

Couple of questions...

Will your husband be present but out of camera view during the Zoom call? If so, do you have a signal to him that the call is becoming distressing and you need support?

You haven't written anything about your sister rejecting your husband. What is the background on that?

[GreenGlit]

Hi GaGrl,
Yeah he has agreed to be present and out of sight. I know I will need his presence and support.
Basically I started setting up boundaries with my family after I got engaged, and planning my wedding. I started to realize, with the help of my therapist, that continuing the dynamic of me always yielding to my sister's tantrums was setting my happiness and marriage up for a rocky future, and that my needs mattered too, especially when it came to my own wedding! My sister expected that her two children (<5 years at the time) would be ring bearers, on stage with us during our vows, when we had planned for an entirely child-free event. I did say I wanted them present for my special day, but not during our ceremony, which would last approximately 20 minutes. In her usual fashion she threw a massive tantrum, my mom took her side, and I became the scapegoat for this family "rift." I held my ground for the first time in my life. My sister escalated her tantrums until she basically had one last move: go nuclear and not come to my wedding. She was supposed to be my maid of honor. We haven't spoken since the last time I heard her say on the phone, "I hope you die. You and your husband should both just go DROP DEAD!" I ended the call right after that. I told my mom what happened, but she believed my sister when she recounted a completely different story and claimed I misheard what she said, even though she was on speaker with 2 other witnesses. That was 6 years ago. My grandmother's funeral was almost 2 years ago. I am still blamed for "breaking the family apart."

[zachira]

Your sister sounds a lot like mine. I love my sister and often wish I could have a relationship with her and can't because of how badly she treats me and others. It is so painful when you love and care for a sibling while she/he only look upon your relationship as some kind of competition and chess game to get what she/he wants and blames you for their emotional meltdowns. A conversation with your sister might not be the way to go. You might ask your sister in writing  for a genuine written apology for how she has treated you before you will talk to her, and if she can't do that, than maybe a conversation with her would not be safe. I certainly would not talk to her alone and would have some ground rules in writing that your sister agrees to before you will talk to her. If the conversation, goes in the direction of your sister blaming you for how badly she has mistreated you or she is mean in any way, than probably it would be best to end the conversation right then. I have found Dr. Ramani's videos on youtube to be extremely helpful in making decisions on how to deal with my dysfunctional family members and their enablers.

[Naughty Nibbler]

I'd find value with asking for an outline of exactly what she wants to discuss in advance, and to have it sent via snail mail.  I think there can be value in being able to think over some things, as opposed to being surprised by something she says and being put in a position of feeling pressured into making a spontaneous reply.  Text and email communication can go South fast, as it's too easy to make spontaneous comments.

I've been NC with my sister, around the same duration as you. Where I left it, was that if she wanted to discuss something with me, it had to be by U.S. Mail. Like you, I want some level of an apology, but I don't think that it will ever happen.  Since our parents have both passed, I don't feel an obligation to suck it up and pretend that certain things didn't happen.

[GaGrl]

It may be highly unlikely that you receive a sincere apology from your sister. That would require her revising her version of what happened.

So if you focus on whether, and if so, you can resume a relationship with her in future, what boundaries must you put in place?

We think of boundaries in terms of our values, so one would hold a boundary of "my husband, as my primary family member, is expected and included in my FOO activities" "rather than "You have to respect and include my husband in family activities." Then, when you see something disrespectful, YOU take action - - you don't attempt to change their behavior. Ideally, they learn the consequence of the behavior. If not, you continue to live your values.

[Notwendy]

We meet this Friday evening. I plan on communicating a few key things:
- her behavior at my grandmother's funeral was an unquestionable message that she continues to want nothing to do with me, and that was extremely hurtful especially when I made an effort to share a gift.
- what changed between the funeral and now that made her reconsider things and want to reach out?
- what are her goals and how does she see us moving forward here?
- how does she see my husband fitting into all of this? This is a hard line for me. I can't realistically have a healthy relationship with anyone that rejects my spouse and refuses to include them or acknowledge them.

  IMHO best to not go there.

It is very unlikely you will get an explanation, or an apology or even the truth. I understand that you would wish for closure and know some reason for what happened but I think if there's a possibility for this, it would be very small and not worth pursuing at this time.

Asking her to disclose why she contacted you- if she were to be up front about it, then the two of you would not be in this situation. You will probably hear why, eventually but for that you need to listen.

Do not put your emotional self out there. Do not adress her from "victim perspective" "why did you do this to me?".

I think it would serve you better if you approached this like you would when meeting someone you don't know well.  You would not get into personal things. You would ask questions such as " how have you been" and then- let her talk. She reached out to you. Let her lead the conversation. Even if she starts blaming you for what happened. Don't react emotionally, be calm, be polite, listen- and she will eventually move into the reason she contacted you.

Practice emotionally neutral non commitments to any requests. " Let me think about this". That sounds interesting and I need to take some time to think about it". Do not say "yes" to anything. Just "maybe- let me think about it" . If she pushes you, repeat again. "I need to think about it".

Only share what you would not care about if it was in the news. "We haven't done much since the pandemic but I watched this great series on Netflix". "We painted the kitchen".

I hope these suggestions help..

[GreenGlit]

I wanted to write an update since several people were kind enough to offer support and advice.
We zoom called today after several scheduling conflicts.

The conversation went...more or less as expected. She said she reached out because her two kids will fight, and she will demand that they reconcile, and the youngest now is saying "you want us to make up but what about you and your sister?" She says she wants to be a good example for her kids and she can't with our current situation. We talked about a lot of things that happened, but the conversations were somewhat circular and she would come back to justifications for her lashing out or being really mean because of perceived offenses.

I did get to say a lot of things. I asked her if she believed I was intentionally malicious or demeaning to her kids (her words). She kept saying "How else was I supposed to interpret your actions..." and I was able to communicate that it doesn't make sense to assume I was being malicious when I had no history of behaving that way, and I communicated many times that it was not my intention. I said that despite the perceived unintentional offense, her reactions were out of proportion, and she was really cruel. She apologized for that. We talked about my grandmother's funeral, where she refused to acknowledge me or interact with me when I approached her. She said that I came right up to her "like nothing had ever happened". I reminded her the only words I said were "Hi, I have this for you" and handed her a restored photo of my grandmother as a young woman, and what my behavior was unacceptable to her? She wasn't able to give me much of an answer. She said that I never SAID I was trying to do this to reach out to her - to which I replied that she can't blame me for HER misinterpretation of my intentions, especially when she turned and walked away and prevented any further exchange after I literally approached her with a gift. I emphasized that I did not have any incentive to reach out again after multiple very clear messages that she was still angry and not interested in interacting with me. She acknowledged that, and apologized.

She apologized quite a bit. I cried a lot. Like full on sobbing. She said she wanted to move on, and I told her I didn't know how, after 6 years of no contact despite my efforts, and through a pandemic where I was in harm's way as an anesthesia resident doing aerosolizing procedures, watching people die around me every day, and never once receiving any kind of contact communicating her concern for my well-being. I told her I accepted a long time ago that she wasn't interested in a relationship, and filled that gigantic hole as best I could with friendships and other relationships, and that I don't think I could ever trust her again.

She is clearly still enmeshed with my mother. She talked a lot about my mom, about my mom's hurt, and how her hurt justified her really cruel and rejectful behaviors. I mentioned a few events that were unquestionably abusive, and my sister focused on my mother's intentions and how she was "doing her best." I asked why intentions are good enough to justify my mother's abuse, but not enough to justify me requesting a child free 20 minute wedding ceremony. We were back to how my sister felt hurt, etc.

I just got the same message over and over - that what matters are my sister's perceptions, my sister's construction of reality, and not what I say or what my intentions are with my actions, or any history she has about my character. I suppose I wanted some confirmation of that. I'm left feeling confused, as usual after talking to her. Confused about why she called, and what she wants. Distrust of her intentions, but also feeling influenced by her story and wondering if my nephews do ask about me. I know in my heart trying to reconnect will cause me a tremendous amount of stress, anxiety, and heartache. But of course, I and she know, I am a sensitive and sentimental person, and I don't know if she is using that to try to get me back into all of this. I don't know. And I go from feeling stable and sure of myself to doubting, wondering if maybe I do remember things incorrectly, wondering if maybe I didn't do enough or say enough to try to reconnect. It is just so painful. And at the same time I do long for that reconnection, and she words it so enticingly. It just...hurts so much. I don't know what to do.

[beatricex]

hi GreenGlit,
Something that has helped me is the youtube videos here.

https://anchoredinknowledge.com/frequently-asked-questions/

I especially like the one where Tamara describes her NC with her cousins.  She describes it as "we have a Toxic relationship."  Do you notice the slight difference?

Instead of "my sister is toxic" what if you believed the relationship is toxic? 

I do think we have a tremendous amount of guilt, cutting off our family members, and just rephrasing it a little has helped me.  It is a no fault zone, where it's not her or me, just that together, there's toxicity.
 

of course you love her, she's your sister.  Of course you wonder about your nephews, who wouldn't?  Life is really short and precious and it took me until now (I'm almost 50) to realize I've spent way too much time crying over spilt milk.  In the time I've spent trying to figure out how to reconcile with my sister, I could have had 10 best friends, better and funnier and easier to get along with than her! 

Take your crumpled picture memory and file it in the "Important things" folder, that one in the back of your mind, and think "I tried."  That was good enough.

b

[Methuen]

I just got the same message over and over - that what matters are my sister's perceptions, my sister's construction of reality, and not what I say or what my intentions are with my actions, or any history she has about my character. I suppose I wanted some confirmation of that. I'm left feeling confused, as usual after talking to her. Confused about why she called, and what she wants. Distrust of her intentions, but also feeling influenced by her story and wondering if my nephews do ask about me. I know in my heart trying to reconnect will cause me a tremendous amount of stress, anxiety, and heartache.

 
So if a patient were sharing this story with you, what would you say to your patient?  I'm going to go out on a limb, and compassionately suggest it's ok to follow your own advice.

I don't know. And I go from feeling stable and sure of myself to doubting, wondering if maybe I do remember things incorrectly, wondering if maybe I didn't do enough or say enough to try to reconnect. It is just so painful. And at the same time I do long for that reconnection, and she words it so enticingly. It just...hurts so much. I don't know what to do.

Welcome to the club.  We all doubt ourselves.  We all can relate to your pain. We all long for a relationship with our loved one.  What has helped me with this is radical acceptance.  I can't say I've achieved this completely, but I've at least achieved it in part, and it has helped me.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0  

It just...hurts so much. I don't know what to do.

Stay strong.  I'm hoping the intensity of that hurt settles, and relieves itself.  In the meantime, pamper yourself with a little extra self-care as soon as you can (thinking of your job).  You deserve it.

[Notwendy]

Hi Glit- I understand it is difficult, and it's OK to sit with your feelings and not make any decisions about reconnecting until you sort them out.

The sadness is understandable. I think we do long for connection with family members but it can feel one sided when the family member is disordered. As much as I wish my BPD mother and some of her extended family could understand how their actions towards me have felt from my point of view, I don't think they can do that.

I think it would help for you to read up on the Karpman drama triangle. From my own perspective, I think pwBPD see things from "victim" perspective and look to others in relationship to them as "rescuer" or "persecutor".  One reason, from my own perception, that conversations where being mistreated is raised is that- this is bringing victim perspective into the conversation. They are already in victim perspective. Your expected role to them is rescuer. This shifts you into persecutor perspective and they "fight" back verbally. So you don't get the understanding you hoped for. It's my own opinion that if we bring up our own feelings of hurt in conversation with a disordered person, it can lead to more feelings of hurt, not the resolution we hoped for.

This doesn't mean we tolerate the mean or abusive behavior but I think it helps to take it less personally. If someone believes they are in victim mode, then they feel their "fighting back" is justified and it helps them to rationalize their behavior in the moment.

A family operates as a unit  - and when there is a disordered person in the family, the other family members can take on roles to maintain a balance. These roles are functional within the family but may be dysfunctional outside the family. In my family of origin, my BPD mother was in "victim" perspective. My father was "rescuer" and the children were also enlisted in the role of rescuer and if we didn't comply it would shift to persecutor. Seems the triangle would play out in different ways around my mother's perspective.

When a family member changes their behavior- and changes their roles in the family, each person feels uncomfortable. They have disrupted the family balance. The remaining members will try to get the person back in their role to establish the balance.

For me, being co-dependent was the normal in my family and I didn't recognize it as anything but normal. My guess is that you have helper traits- which have led you into a helping profession. These are good traits to have, if one is careful to not overdo it as they can also cause you to not take care of yourself too- and it's important to keep that in mind.

So what to do? I do think there's grief involved in realizing that someone you care about isn't able to understand your perspective, that the kind of reciprocal relationship you wish for might not be possible. You have certainly been through a lot being on the front line, quite literally, in the pandemic. It's understandable you would wish to have a supportive sister, but it's also possible she is unable to. My mother also isn't able to be emotionally empathetic- not to anyone. It does help to not think it is personal.

You can choose what you want to do about this relationship. If you wish to remain NC, that is your choice. If not, then it can be a sort of low contact, less emotional relationship by changing your expectations and not taking your sister's perspective personally can help. Let your own feelings guide you. You don't have to subject yourself to any abusive behavior. However, it has also helped me a lot to see my mother's behavior as not personal. I don't seek for her to understand her behavior from my perspective.