I had an 8 hour conversation with my brother about our BPD'd Mom (first ever)

[beatricex]

Hi,
I came to this board because of my step daughter, but realized the wounds from my BPD'd mom are far more important to me.  To heal, I mean.

I finally got to courage to speak to one of my siblings about Mom.  It ended up being an 8 hour phone call.  It was a really difficult conversation, and I kept thinking he would hang up on me.  The first two hours were really rough, he kept responding to everything I said with "I don't agree" and sarcasm and I realized we had two completely different experiences growing up in our house (my brother is 6 years older than me).  I said "it sounds like we had different experiences..."  and every time he tried to discourage me from my beliefs, I stayed strong.  I repeated things.  I spoke about theories of mental health, quite lucidly, in fact.  I told him "I spent 10 years in therapy, I know what I'm talking about."  Several times I asked him "then you're saying I'm the mentally ill one?"  Because he countered everything with "All the people in this family are mentally ill probably - the women anyway."


I did not give up though, despite being disconnected several times (I don't know if he hung up on me or we just lost the cell connection), he called me back several times during this convo.

I made him cry at one point.  Can't remember exactly why, but at one point in the convo he accused me of only going to my grandfather's funeral in support of my grandmother to hurt my Mom (OMG, that really set me off, cause I loved my grandmother).  It had nothing to do with my Mom!  I told him that to, that hurting Mom was the furthest thing from my mind.

Towards the second half of the conversation he actually started agreeing with me.  I don't know if that was really the point, to convince him of anything, as much as I just wanted to speak my truth and be heard.  Regardless of the outcome.

Has anybody had a similiar experience putting it all out on the table as far as the dysfunctional family system and what we see?  Pretty much my entire family of origin is in denial about my Mom.  They are either enabling her, or practicing abuse by proxy.  I just honestly decided it was time to tell my brother that I'm not participating in this anymore.  And the specifics of why.  And really not live in fear anymore, that they won't agree with me.  i guess I'm just not afraid to just be myself anymore.

Something really strange, my brother is retired at only 55.  He is married for the third time and he started telling me he was probably going to get divorced.  He talked at length about how unhappy he is.  He said even that he's suicidal.  I was shocked, this is the brother I looked up to, had no idea he was having marital problems, and imagined him and his wife traveling the country in their RV, doing all the fun stuff someone who is young and recently retired would be doing...in no way did I imagine he was miserable.  I started wondering if he has BPD (it runs in families afterall!)

After reading all the stories of people here who are stuck caring for an elderly BPD'd Mom, I realized I can't do it.  I have too much anger and resentment and my Mom is still abusive.  Early in the convo I said "I'm done putting the expectation on myself that I need to take care of Mom.  I not only don't want to, I won't do it."  Of course my brother volunteered that he would start helping, he would call my parents and volunteer to be there to help next month when my Mom has back surgery.  He said he'd take care of their dog, hang out, whatever.  He would stay there for a month or two, it would give him an excuse to get away from his wife (who he now says he hates).

I was really shocked but this made me feel relieved too, because since he volunteered I don't feel as bad not doing it myself.  I know he is probably only fantasizing (like me a few years ago) that he could handle this.  My mom is BPD'd and narcissitic, she stabs you in the back behind your back, while being nice to your face.  She is sneaky, devious, you have to always look behind your back when she's around.  She will eventally turn on him...


Thanks for listening

b

[zachira]

It is perfectly understandable you cannot care for your BPD mom because of how she treats you. Know that there are many people on PSI who understand and support you.

[Turkish]

That sounds like good progress, 8 hours, wow.

It will be interesting to see how he follows through to help with your mother.

I personally could no longer deal with it because my mom not only demanded to be taken back to her hoard home/property, she was also threatening me and making accusations of elder abuse (physical and financial).

Not to disparage elder citizens, especially since my own senior discounts are on the horizon, sometimes the way to deal with these situations is like with children: Logical and Natural Consequences.

[Methuen]

Hi B,

An 8 hour convo with your brother - that's intense.  How he changed from "siding" with his mom, to agreeing with you in the second half of the convo is really something.

"All the people in this family are mentally ill probably - the women anyway."

I just gotta say that you are remarkable, for keeping your calm and keeping the convo going after that comment.      

And really not live in fear anymore, that they won't agree with me.  i guess I'm just not afraid to just be myself anymore.

I am sorry to hear about your brother's struggles.  Those are serious issues.  How are you doing after hearing those things?

 

Of course my brother volunteered that he would start helping, he would call my parents and volunteer to be there to help next month when my Mom has back surgery.  He said he'd take care of their dog, hang out, whatever.  He would stay there for a month or two, it would give him an excuse to get away from his wife (who he now says he hates).

This sounds helpful.  Hopefully he can follow through on that.

It's totally ok that you know you can't take care of your mom when she's elderly.  If you stop and think about it, most elderly people don't demand this of their children.  I've already told my children that if I become too ill or incapacitated to take care of myself, I just hope they will ensure I am in a home where the staff respect, care and honour the people they take care of, and that my children visit me as often as works for them.  

My friends' parents don't obligate or guilt their children (my friends) the way my mother has done to me.  It's a relief to know that most people are not like our parents.  From that standpoint, looking after yourself and not falling into the guilt trap is totally OK.  It means you are looking after your own health, and living an autonomous life free of abuse.  Most people would call that reasonable.  

[beatricex]

thank you Zachira, Turkish and Methuen.

Your words really helped me process this event.  It's a huge deal.  I am becoming a real person, with thoughts/feelings/wants separate from the dysfunctional family system.  I knew no one would get it it my family, and everyone would get it here.  This is really a great board.

Support is really huge.  I have none in my family.

I don't think he will follow through and help my Mom, but I do think he has good intentions to (he spent 6 of those 8 hours complaining to me about how he has to care for his addict/PTSD/anxious/depressed wife).  Why is taking care of mom different?

Thanks for recognizing that my goal and only goal was keeping my calm.  In a family with so much hate/finger pointing/denial and chaos, that is really all I want, is to stay centered while expressing my truth.  Who cares what they do, I want to be centered.  I am doing this for me.

Agree, my brother is really struggling and I'm not sure what more I can do.  Shouldn't he see my example and get a therapist?  Seems strange I would have to tell him that, I pretty much explained that is what I had to do to heal.

Thanks again for all these words of encouragement, you really cannot know how much it has helped me.

 

[pursuingJoy]

b, I think you're so brave, and I'm happy that you spoke up. You are strong and you have a good heart. Trust that.

My husband is a bit like your brother. He will admit he has no boundaries with his mom but actively refuses to process family issues because there aren't any. He and his family system bear all the trademarks of her having BPD and she ticks 7 out of the 9 symptoms. I brought up the possibility of BPD last night for the first time since I learned about it 3 years ago, and instead of denying/blowing up/getting mad, he just shrugged and said it doesn't matter. He doesn't care to explore it or wonder about it. That's his mom.

Do you feel good about speaking your truth? I hope so. I do. It was the right time, and I'm glad I brought it up, even though I was shaking. I think, sometimes, that deep down they know something is off. They've walled off the hurt and anger that we've allowed ourselves to feel. Maybe, just maybe, modeling a journey of healing and bringing up BPD will provide a little encouragement to embark on their own healing journey. But we can't force them to choose it. That's a fact.

I'm proud of you. I hope you know how much we're cheering for you.

[beatricex]

hi pursuingjoy,
Thank you for responding.

Yes, I feel good about speaking my truth.  Just tired of being slandered in my family.  About a year and a half ago, my Mom was at my house.  She started making up false stories (criminal) about my brother-in-law.  I realized it's a tactic she uses to get me in line.  Implied is that if I don't do everything she wants, she is going to slander me too.  She has done this in the past, the same brother-in-law told me she said awful untrue things about me back when I was in college.  At the time he did not know they were untrue.  Later, when she began slandering him, and he realized the things she said about me were likely false, he contacted me.  Really, this saved my life, I was very depressed at the time because everyone in my family had turned against me and I did not know why.

I think the term is gangslandering?  Maybe I just made that up. 

Anyway, my Mom is very good at this.  She had a best friend for 10 years, same thing, after that friendship soured, her friend contacted me and said something like "I could never figure out why your Mom said such horrible things about you, cause I've met you in person and I find you to be a lovely caring person." 

Who knows what my Mom said. 

The reason it's so damaging is because you can't put your finger on it, but people stop talking to you, and pretty soon you have lost the support of your entire family and friends.

Anyway, this prompted some of the recent anger, because she spoke to me about my brother-in-law, I believe, kind of like a test to see if I'd agree with her, I suppose.   She did it again, the next visit.  Same lie, same test of my reaction.  (I did not react, I have found thinking things through before responding is best with my Mom).  While I did not react, I certainly didn't phone my sister or brother, or anyone else and repeat the lie.  The chain ended with me.  Dead.

After processing this, I realized my Mom really hasn't changed, she's just gotten more sophisticated in her abuse of others, enlisting others to abuse by proxy.  Because I'm sure someone in the family will repeat the lie, and so it will get back to my brother-in-law or his kids in a bad way, and that's just not cool.    So, not only did I not agree with her, I decided it was probably time to cut her off again for doing it.  Just took me awhile (a year and a half) to do so.  This was sort of what I tried to explain to my brother, although he didn't agree with me at all on the points, he said the lie about my brother-in-law was "probably true."  ugh

I might be the only person with integrity in my family, but I can live with myself, and I can get up in the morning and look in the mirror and not hate what I see.  Not so sure my siblings, my Mom or my Dad (enablers) can say the same.  I think, the long term effect is it really erodes your well-being.  Possibly, this is what's going on with my brother?

So, while I can feel sorry for him, I can't particate, and so it's very clear in my mind no contact or very very low contact is my path forward.
b

[zachira]

You are not alone in being slandered by your family and their enablers.The people who willingly slander you by what they hear about you from a third party without knowing you are often referred to as"flying monkeys". Flying monkeys can be innocent participants who will recognize the truth when they get to know you like your mother's friend and brother-in-law did or they can be willing participants in the slander, people who avoid how badly they feel about themselves by talking badly about others. You say you are the only person with integrity in your family; not only do I believe you, I have enormous respect for you. By refusing to be a flying monkey, you will attract people with integrity into your life and those who cannot recruit you to be a flying monkey will lose interest in you because they cannot manipulate you to do their dirty work for them.

[missing NC]

I am sorry for the what you are going through and have gone through with your mom's propensity for slander, Beatricex.  I second Zachira's observations and add for what it's worth that I too have dealt with my sister's a) horrific slander against me b) her equally horrific slander against my former brother-in-law and more recently against my brother and c) her unsuccessful attempts to recruit me as a flying monkey (or to use Bill Eddy's term, agent of abuse).  I really don't see any other viable response other than Low Contact or No Contract in your situation.  So much of the literature and communication training associated with BPD focuses on validation, but I just don't see any reasonable response to the perpetrator of smear campaigns other than distancing for self-protection. 

[beatricex]

Turkish, you said

I personally could no longer deal with it because my mom not only demanded to be taken back to her hoard home/property, she was also threatening me and making accusations of elder abuse (physical and financial).

The similarities between your Mom and mine are uncanny.  My Mom is a hoarder too.  My Dad and her are living illegally in a shed I'll call it.  It is basically a storage structure they built on some property they own but it was never inspected nor does it meet any housing codes (it is not insulated, it has no central heating/air, it is not up to fire codes).  They pay taxes on the property as if it is vacant land.  As they've gotten away with it for over 10 years now, they seem to be getting bolder.  My Mom complains about all of her neighbors, even calling the authorities on what she perceives to be their wrongs.  It is really interesting because any one of them could call the county and my parents would be out on the street.    I do think this is part of the BPD, and I was trying to explain it to my brother.  They have put themselves in a situation where their kids will likely have to intervene on their behalf, as they have no extra money if they're forced to leave. 

I just simply told my brother, "I can't deal with her anymore." 

It's been almost 2 weeks since our conversation and I'm already feeling much better about my decision...I did try my best, but my Mom is relentless even in her precarious position she thinks it's my duty to care for her. Her and my Dad expect me to take her abuse, to listen to her stories of "getting people back" (which retraumatizes me as she treated me this way) and to never question her...remarkable really.

thanks again for all the kind replies

b

[zachira]

I think you may soon start be pleasantly surprised by how more and more you attract the right kind of people into your life and the wrong people wanting less to do with you. Going NC with family members who mistreats us and others can be so freeing. The situation with your parents sounds terrible, and you really could not do anything more to help them. I too listened to my mom (and dad) say the worst things about people when really my parents were the ones at fault. It just hurts to your very core listening to all the unfair accusations including the ones dumped on you.

[beatricex]

Thank you zachira, I needed to hear that.

Hurt, yes.  Anger, moreso.  I realize that I risk looking like the crazy one, but for the past few years I have really not held back when it comes to the bullying.  I have called every single person in my family out on it every time.

At my sister's a few years ago, my Mom and my sister were ganging up on my niece.  I stood up to both of them.

I have stood up to my brother-in-law, calling him out on his disparging remarks to me.

I obviously called my Mom out on her recent behavior.

And now, my brother says he's a bully.  That may be the case.

I don't know if it's healthy to do this, but it sure felt good fighting back for once
I know a therapist would never recommend fighting back, they always say "walk away," Distract yourself, feel empathy for your abuser...but I do not feel bad about it at all.

b