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Author Topic: Need Help with BPD Divorce  (Read 548 times)
Walther PPK

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« on: April 11, 2021, 02:47:54 PM »

Need help being directed to the right resources:

1) Resources for divorcing a BPD in a high-conflict divorce (without being wealthy enough to "pay to play" with a $650/hour specialist BDP attorney.)
2) Support Group(s) (men divorcing BPD's)

I imagine there is a lot posted somewhere on this site, but I'm new and would appreciate being directed to the above resources.  I tried the yahoo groups posted, but they seem like old links.  I'm at the end of my road on both understanding how to deal with a divorce with a quite Borderline who has manipulated the entire system and those around her and will not settle (willing to damage herself to damage me and has created an all out divorce war).  I have a child (shared custody) and I'm worried about her being manipulated and coming under the spell of her mother.  I'm also needing a support group as I finally realize perhaps the only way to save my own soul is to admit I have some sort of PTSD and reaching out to others that have gone through this may provide the hand I need to pull me out of the void. 

A long time ago, I posted to a support group (during my marriage looking for answers) and was told I was the reason for all my wife's issue - I hope this is not the same group - clearly a Borderline troll.  I've learned since then, these are dangerous people - my wife IS "mommie dearest" with many wire hangars in her closet.  Hail Mary...  Anyone out there?   I am not here to salvage any relationships - that train has left the station - I'm here to understand how to save my daughter, defend myself against a BPD in a divorce, and try to salvage what is left of my life.

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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2021, 10:39:59 PM »

Hey, welcome  Welcome new member (click to insert in post) glad you could reach out.

Super happy to help point you to some resources!

The #1 article I recommend is called "Ju-Jitsu Parenting" by Dr. Craig Childress:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

Briefly, it combines A+ ways to talk to professionals about the real problems going on (without you seeming like the problem parent), with key tactics to parenting your child with love and understanding despite the alienation the other parent is trying.

I believe Dr Childress, who is based in California, also has YouTube videos (I haven't checked them out yet) and may take phone consultations. He has seemed incredibly educated, with it, and professional in the multiple papers of his I've read -- that he truly gets that it's not "hey, Dad, how about you stop forcing your child to spend time with you", and it's really "you know what, if Mom is imposing her pathology on your kid, it's child abuse and it needs to stop". So, a straight shooter, and, truly, a problem solver who wants children to have healthy relationships with BOTH parents.

Lots of excellent books in the Library area of the site. I'd recommend the following for starters (if you haven't already seen it; brief description and reviews at the link):

"Splitting: Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist" by William Eddy, Esq.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=47078.0

From what I understand, Eddy is both a lawyer and a psychologist, and understands how BPD and other PDs show up in the legal system. Again, I believe he understands that it isn't just "Well, it takes two to tango" as if each parent contributes equally to the dysfunction and conflict -- that some people are high conflict people, and perpetuate that conflict during separation, divorce, and trials.

Start there and let us know if those are close, and/or if you want more.

Re: (2): You'll find a LOT of dads here on the "Conflicted/Divorcing/Custody" board who have divorced, are pondering divorce, or are in the thick of divorce with a PD spouse.  I'll let them step into this thread to introduce themselves.

PLEASE know that we get it -- this isn't a place where you'll hear "well, if you just listened more to your wife, that would solve things, and if you just let the kids go with her, there wouldn't be so much conflict". These are messy, complicated situations, and pwBPD (people with BPD, or even with traits but no diagnosis) are masters at flipping the narrative to make themselves the heroes and us the villains.

You are very welcome to join here and be with people who understand. We truly look forward to sharing with you how we've made it through the wringer or are still coping and surviving day to day when the kids' other parent has a PD and is manipulative, blaming, and incorrigibly high conflict. There are ways to preserve and nurture your relationship with your child no matter what.

Looking forward to hearing more from you whenever works;

kells76
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Walther PPK

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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2021, 10:18:38 AM »

Thank you so much!  I'll check out these links.
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Walther PPK

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2021, 10:28:44 AM »

Can anyone direct me to where I might find real-time support groups - people meeting together in person or even via zoom or something.   I appreciate the message board, but I'd like to try something more personal as well.
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kells76
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2021, 10:43:47 AM »

Love the user name -- it's so classic!

Some larger churches offer "Divorce Care" groups -- you could start there. My inkling is that they help members deal with more run of the mill concerns versus high conflict situations, but you could go there as a way to talk to people in person, and learn from members about local resources. I.e., you could ask a real person from your town "hey, this is great and all, but I also am looking for a more high intensity support group -- have you heard of anything around here?" Or, hopefully, it's a pleasant surprise that they have a great moderator and the group is the right fit. So, kind of a win win either way. Even though the group may meet at a church (I think it's our local large Baptist church that has one), they will be welcoming to those not of that faith or not of faith. Worth a shot.

You can also reach out to your local university or community college. Our local U has a sizeable marriage/family therapy department, and they often have grad students running support groups, likely for a lower or no cost. Again, same issue as with DivorceCare -- there is the potential that the group and moderator are equipped for issues at a 5/10 or 6/10, and if you're here with us, we're dealing with 11/10. But, again, same upside, you get to meet real people, and if the group isn't a great fit, you can ask real people in your town what else they know of for support.

Bill Eddy's (author of "Splitting") group, the High Conflict Institute ( https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/ ), offers virtual and in-person trainings. Not sure if it leans to the "support group" side, but worth some research.

Do you have a personal therapist/counselor? See if s/he can ask around to colleagues about face-to-face high-conflict divorce support groups.

I had a coworker going through a high-conflict divorce (there was alcohol abuse plus false allegations) and he was the one who connected us to our lawyer. So, if there are coworkers you feel comfortable reaching out to, give that a try.

One more thought... as DH and I were "covering the bases" with court looming, we voluntarily took a parenting class offered through a local counseling practice (short story, it was to show that he cared enough to become an even better dad; we let the kids' mom know about the class but she was "just too busy" to improve herself... ugh). They took attendance, so there was documentation that DH was there, and it was also free. So, if you don't have a personal therapist/counselor to ask, you can do the legwork yourself and call around to a couple of local practices. Look for child/family practice groups, maybe "behavioral health for children" type stuff.

...

Hang in there, and talk with you soon;

kells76
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livednlearned
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2021, 11:00:51 AM »

That's awful you were getting blamed for your wife's issues. Like you need more abuse.

I'm at the end of my road on both understanding how to deal with a divorce with a quite Borderline who has manipulated the entire system and those around her and will not settle (willing to damage herself to damage me and has created an all out divorce war)

What stage are you at? What are some of the manipulations she's engaging in?

I have a child (shared custody) and I'm worried about her being manipulated and coming under the spell of her mother.

How old is your D, and what is mom doing?

What kind of custody arrangement do you have in place at the moment?

Bill Eddy talks about high conflict people (what he calls HCPs) who have a target of blame, recruit negative advocates, and are persuasive blamers. He says there are BPDs who are not HCPs, but all HCPs have some kind of personality disorder.

It sounds like your ex has traits of high conflict personality if she's manipulating the legal system.

Also, I second kells76's recommendations for Childress's stuff on alienation, as well as Eddy's book Splitting to help you with the divorce. My only beef with Splitting is that at the end, Eddy talks about mediation and I think even collaborative divorce, which might make sense with milder BPDs, but if you're with a bona fide high conflict person, no. Collaborative divorce is like a trash can for money.
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2021, 02:08:07 PM »

My only beef with Splitting is that at the end, Eddy talks about mediation and I think even collaborative divorce, which might make sense with milder BPDs, but if you're with a bona fide high conflict person, no. Collaborative divorce is like a trash can for money.

I agree.  Up front you need to make a judgment call on the likelihood of emotions calming down at some point and parties behaving more rationally.  'Most' lawyers believe this is the pattern. 

But these lawyers havent dealt with truly difficult personalities.  They think they have, but they havent.

If you think there is a chance that after some time and reflection logical will prevail.  Do it.  But YOU are the most qualified to assess likelihood of this.  And if YOU dont believe it is possible, just brace for a difficult ride, pick a lawyer you can stomach, and have at it.  This is the shortest/least painful/least expensive route to the other side.

The internet platform Meetup has local support groups of different types.

A personal counselor is high priority.  Preferable one with PD experience.  Hard to find, so put some time and effort into screening.  A good counselor will help walk you through your own self reflection and owning your own stuff, but not owning more than your own stuff.

If in a difficult relationship, for sure there is some level of PTSD and a good counselor can help with some recovery of that as well.

Read Dr Bakers material on alienation - some good advice on how/what to say to help combat.  Be proactive with combating potential alienation.  As emotions escalate during divorce it would be easy for alienation to creep in.  There is an art on doing this while at the same time not slandering your co-parent.

Be available to your child.  Emotionally and physically.
Make sure your child is always safe, and make sure they know you will always keep them safe.
Make sure your child knows that both parents will always love them.

Post here a lot.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2021, 01:25:44 PM »

Need help being directed to the right resources:

...  Hail Mary...  Anyone out there?   I am not here to salvage any relationships - that train has left the station - I'm here to understand how to save my daughter, defend myself against a BPD in a divorce, and try to salvage what is left of my life.


Ok, so a couple years ago, I went through a BPD-person divorce, and am back in court now because I made a couple mistakes.  I have a couple thoughts... I'll just bullet point them for brevity, but can come back and discuss further if you have specific questions.

  • Get a reference to a good, competent & honest attorney; don't worry too much about specialization; those things can be misleading, and lousy lawyers will lie and say they've handled cases just like yours or had an ex just like yours, etc.  You don't want a "Shark" you want someone who is competent.
  • Don't waste your attorney's time complaining about your Ex.  This is hard, because things are still raw & you are resentful and bitter (and rightly so), but while sympathy and agreement are nice, they get you nowhere in court; they are not tangible results you can use for you and your daughter's benefit down the line.  Yet your attorney bills you for every second you're on the phone with them, or email from you they read.  Be succinct.  Focus on facts, what you want, and what you and your D need
  • Don't cheap out; if something is the right thing to do, but you're blanching at the cost, find a way to pay for it.  Borrow money from friends and family if you have to (but see the next bullet point).  For example: I KNEW when I was going through a divorce that the only way I'd be able to get some of my concerns for my own daughter's well being heard was by pushing for a guardian ad litem or amicus attorney.  Yet, I figured getting the divorce over fast and cheap was the best thing for right then.  Well... I'm back in court now, and getting an amicus attorney anyway, several years after finalizing the divorce
  • Careful what you say and tell other people; you don't know who is still talking to your Ex; well meaning but naive family members can screw things up.  I was on the verge of getting on a plane and flying across the country to smack some sense into a sibling of mine, who kept texting my Ex kind comments thinking they were helping (she only would freak out at them, thinking I was "triangulating" or trying to play an angle or some nonsense).  I finally told them this was a war, and if they didn't stop talking to her, I would stop talking to them.   And remember the saying "If you want to make sure you lose a fight, talk about it first..."
  • Don't listen to a lot of people telling you what you likely will or won't get in court, or what your Ex will or won't agree to.  If you need something, push for it.  If you don't want your Ex to have something or know she'll use to continue conflict, push to have the right, or fight to make a right joint.  For example, see my other thread on geographic restrictions to see how a BPDex can use their rights in the divorce to screw the other party.  Focus on the parental decisions (primary custody, right to determine residence, right to determine school, psychological care, healthcare, etc.) and put guardrails around those.  You might not get primary custody, but if your XW can't move very far, put your D in schools far away, or otherwise use the terms to affect you negatively, that's a win for now

A general example I find instructive:

When I was moving out, I left all our joint tax returns in the house.  I didn't want my XW to accuse me of hiding anything or stealing documents, and figured I'd get them through the divorce anyway. 

Well guess what?  She accused me of stealing & hiding documents anyway, and I never got the documents in the proceedings.  My attorney did, never turned them over to me, and I ended up fighting with him over his padding bills in the end, and just moved on.

Years later, when I needed copies of my returns, I asked my XW and she played verbal games for weeks until I finally gave up and dropped it.  I had to go to the IRS and get tax transcripts (which were luckily sufficient for the purpose I needed them for).

I SHOULD have just taken all the documents, copied them, and given my XW the copies or even the originals.  Take the decision and control away from them; they will only use it to create conflict. 
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livednlearned
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 04:40:12 PM »

Those are such good points.

So well said.
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2021, 04:03:13 PM »

Need help being directed to the right resources:

Resources for divorcing a BPD in a high-conflict divorce (without being wealthy enough to "pay to play" with a $650/hour specialist BDP attorney.)

I don't know if you can find this, but I found a high-conflict divorce specialist who had a sharp paralegal and an similarly-minded associate that he was mentoring. The specialist did the strategy and interface with my ex's $700/hour attorney, and the associate and the paralegal did the rest. Mine was the managing partner and already charged less than my ex's, but he also at times wrote off things "because that's why I have my own firm." Then the associate did my closeout (also high conflict) with just a few consultations with his mentor. They figured that I paid half or less of what my ex did.

It can be very hard to find support if you are in a high conflict divorce. As it turned out, the specialist retired and closed the firm shortly after mine was final, and my case went with the associate to a larger firm. They have their own support group run by an in-house therapist that sees clients, helps with cases, and is trained in collaborative settlements. Apparently that concept is new but is popping up in some areas of the country.
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Walther PPK

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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2021, 10:09:03 PM »

Thanks everyone!  I really appreciate the info, your thoughts and the support. 

I've researched the four types and feel my wife is the "Petulant Borderline" - it matches perfectly. 

Anyway, I'm in a very rural area and so there are not many resources, including attorneys.  I had to hire a remote attorney from an urban area and each court appearance is a few grand just for him to show up.  I've checked and there are absolutely no qualified attorneys within a few counties of me (even other attorneys and judges have told me this).  Anyway, he seems to be handling it ok, but he's not an expert in BPD, I only found one that was and his rates were 2x mine (and my attorney isn't cheap) - even further away.

The same for support, really nothing is available around here for BPD, so was looking virtually.  Same for therapists - very small community (everybody knows everyone) and there are no specialists.  I'm sure they are fine, but as the books say, we need a specialist who really knows what they are doing, otherwise, we're just wasting more money. 

I'm reading "splitting" - helpful, about half-way through, so this may be premature, but I see a pattern in all these books.  Although he advocates for an "assertive" approach - it basically is still avoiding conflict and isn't that what we've been doing all these years that has not worked?   The only thing proactive is setting a few boundaries and protecting your six through careful documentation. 

Excuse me here, but for those of us that have left and are done with the crap and don't care to dance around the borderline any more, would it not be more effective to use their behavior against them?  Effectively triggering them for the world to see their behavior and craftily documenting this, short-cutting all the very exhaustive and expensive evidence-based documentary that may take years and in Eddy's own words may not work well as the court is an "adversarial" environment that plays into the hands of the high-conflict personality (the borderline).  Why not use their game against them - "rules for radicals"...right?   

Being a man in court is hard enough - you are automatically accused of anything, even if you did nothing - guilty of being a man, especially these days.  Or not believed, even with evidence unless the world was there to see it (and they all agreed to testify).  I began typing an example of an incident of Domestic Violence that occured, unilaterally by my wife, for which I even had cell phone video evidence, and for which my child witnessed (and partially testified to).  The DA tossed it - who knows why, but I know if genders were reversed, I would have been charged with battery...Absolutely!   

So, why not trigger them in a public way?  Get the testimony to build your case to clearly illustrate what you are dealing with and that well behaved, charming, pretty woman sitting there beside her attorney is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'...  Where are the 'how to' books on that?  I know to some this sounds horrible - take the high road, don't stoop to their level, go the long road, but we already are playing by their rules and especially in court.  When everything is stacked against you, should we not play every card we can? 

Any thoughts?

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kells76
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2021, 01:50:53 PM »

I'm at work so this will be brief, but I think I get your question:

how can we "out" the irrationality, blame, lies, hatred, etc, so that it means something to professionals/third parties?

Is that close?

I will just say that the question to me isn't "why can't we do unto them the way they do to us, to get them outed" -- to me, it's more "how can we use natural consequences to corner them into outing themselves... without me ever needing to stoop to their level"

There is a certain sad predictability to PD's, which is part of the whole reason it's a personality disorder -- PD's are pervasive, adult-lifetime worldviews, that are only overcome with profound humility and willingness to change.

Once you know the predictability of PD's in general and your pwPD in particular, there's a sense in which you don't have to "use their dirty tactics against them"... all you have to do is give them enough rope.

I'm thinking of how my husband's kids finally got counseling a few years ago, after DH's older daughter was having explosive anger/refusing parenting time. Mom of course would coddle/overempower: "It's just how she feels... I'm the only one who truly listens to her voice... why can't you just listen to your child..." all that BS.

So finally the kids got a counselor. I'm sure Mom presented herself as "mom of the year" who "bent over backwards" to ensure the kids had a relationship with DH, but she just couldn't help it if they didn't want to see him, what could she do, all she could do was listen to their voices...  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

DH had a huge hurdle, going in with a pre-cooked narrative about him -- that he was insensitive, selfish, emotionally abusive, self centered, always had to have things his way, never listened to the kids, blah blah blah.

But what happened was -- the counselor (we weren't sure about her at first, and there was nothing particularly "expert" or "specific" about her) watched. And listened. And observed the kids with both parents, and with either parent, and on their own. DH didn't have to say ANYTHING about who Mom was, what she did, anything. Over a few months, Mom showed the counselor exactly who she was -- someone who could not parent with authority, who blamed others for issues and didn't take responsibility for herself, who overempowered the kids, etc etc etc. The kids' stepdad was also involved, and again, without DH saying ANYTHING about him, the counselor saw that he would not get with her program, would not comply with her recommendations, overempowered the kids, did not see the rules as applying to him, etc etc etc.

...

I guess the nutshell version of this is -- it is not necessary to "do the same things" as the pwBPD in order to out them. The very inherent nature of PDs means that the longer the pwBPD spends around a professional, the more they will probably out themselves.

Nothing is a guarantee, of course. And, to your point of "why not trigger them publicly", I guess it depends... I would maybe call it more "let them hoist themselves by their own petard" or use logic and natural outcomes to "arm lock" them, versus "I will also blame, yell, finger point, and throw mud, so that others see how bad they are". That's mostly my concern -- don't sink to the same level, because then you come across the same way. Use reason, logic, natural consequences, forethought, etc, and the pwBPD will sadly do the rest of the "outing" themselves.

...

I appreciate your reference to protecting your six! I hope you get good people on your "team" as it were who will do that for you. And, that's why we're all here, too.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2021, 06:42:00 PM »

What are you thinking might work for your situation?

Maybe we can share insights on whether something similar worked/didn't work for us.

Eddy's book addresses tactics for a spectrum of BPD behaviors including what he calls elsewhere "generally cooperative, not dangerous."

More often, the people who come to this board seem to be divorcing the "not cooperative, not dangerous" or "not cooperative, dangerous" BPD spouse.

There's a lot of collective wisdom here about what works that Eddy doesn't necessarily get into.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2021, 08:55:20 PM »

From a legal strategy standpoint, rather than a "gotcha" standpoint, you might want to talk with your lawyer about the strategy of a deposition. People often feel more casual about a deposition than testifying in court, but whatever they say in a conference room in a deposition can then be brought into court as sworn tesyimony. And it is often contradictory to court of trial testimony.

The objective is not so much to "out" them as to show instability and uncertainty of their behavior. Dispositions are one tool.

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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2021, 07:23:09 AM »

Excuse me here, but for those of us that have left and are done with the crap and don't care to dance around the borderline any more, would it not be more effective to use their behavior against them?  Effectively triggering them for the world to see their behavior and craftily documenting this, short-cutting all the very exhaustive and expensive evidence-based documentary that may take years and in Eddy's own words may not work well as the court is an "adversarial" environment that plays into the hands of the high-conflict personality (the borderline).  Why not use their game against them - "rules for radicals"...right?   

So, why not trigger them in a public way?  Get the testimony to build your case to clearly illustrate what you are dealing with and that well behaved, charming, pretty woman sitting there beside her attorney is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'...  Where are the 'how to' books on that?  I know to some this sounds horrible - take the high road, don't stoop to their level, go the long road, but we already are playing by their rules and especially in court.  When everything is stacked against you, should we not play every card we can? 

Any thoughts?


My SIL (a lawyer) essentially recommended this approach.  Quit caring about the other person, do very 'reasonable' things that may trigger her.  Let her figure herself out (even if that means deregulation).

It is hard to do for people that 'care' about others. 

But imo is a quite viable approach.  'The high road', more often than not, gets you nothing other than some pat on the back in some meaningless way.

Dont spend a lot of time with the 'easy way'.  It is not possible.
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2021, 08:41:01 AM »

From a legal strategy standpoint, rather than a "gotcha" standpoint, you might want to talk with your lawyer about the strategy of a deposition. People often feel more casual about a deposition than testifying in court, but whatever they say in a conference room in a deposition can then be brought into court as sworn tesyimony. And it is often contradictory to court of trial testimony.

The objective is not so much to "out" them as to have their sworn testimony to later counteract what might be said or what might happen in court. If that exposes the instability and uncertainty of their behavior, so he it.  Dispositions are one tool.

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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 06:41:09 PM »

My SIL (a lawyer) essentially recommended this approach.  Quit caring about the other person, do very 'reasonable' things that may trigger her.  Let her figure herself out (even if that means deregulation).

It is hard to do for people that 'care' about others. 

But imo is a quite viable approach.  'The high road', more often than not, gets you nothing other than some pat on the back in some meaningless way.

Dont spend a lot of time with the 'easy way'.  It is not possible.

"Give them enough rope to hang themselves" is a viable strategy with BPDers, but you certainly have to be cautious it doesn't blow up in your face.

I'd be concerned with potential unexpected fallout, e.g. you provoke a reaction that gets physical or out-of-control in a way that does not help your cause, or the risk that your motives are too transparent and the judge or jurors feel it's obvious you were intentionally creating a problem, or looking for a fight when you tried to trigger her. 

He may just have to play the "long game" here: get the divorce over with as best he can, and let her continue to create issues.  either wait for: 1) one big blowout that would serve as a change in circumstances that you could take to court, or 2) a pattern of continuous problems documented well in written communications, and eventually go back to court when there is "enough."

What "enough" is, I don't think anyone will ever tell you, but you have to go with your gut instinct here. 
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