Losing hope...

[Ventak]

I love my wife dearly, and want her to have the best possible life.  It has been a tremendous struggle the past ten years, but we have always managed to find our way through.

About 8 months ago she found a therapist whose goals are to enable women, and she is now convinced she is a strong Latina woman held down by the white patriarchy. She stopped her psych meds cold turkey and has been on a downward spiral that now feels like psychosis instead of “I hate you, don’t leave me.”

We have suffered tremendously (5 2nd trimester losses) but now have twins 2.5 years old through surrogacy. 

Long story short.. increasing violence that this week left me with a broken toe, cuts and scrapes, and $5k property damage and her in jail.  Five weeks ago I had to run to the neighbors in my underwear holding both twins (she tore my clothes off) and marks on my neck where she dug her nails into me choking. 

Oregon has strict domestic violence laws, and she will not be able to contact me (possibly twins too) for 2-3 months. DHS has essentially told me that she is unstable and if I let her access me or the twins and anything happens I will lose them. Our family doctor told me she is unstable and I need to protect the children, and it will likely be a year if she agrees to help.  I get a restraining order Tuesday. She won on appeal a few weeks ago, but unlikely to win this time with the arrest and I have video of her loss of control that is somewhat frightening to watch. She is convinced she was arrested due to racism (I’m white) and was so out of control at her arraignment she will be shackled feet and hands at future court appearances not in front of a jury.

Intellectually I know it’s over or should be, but I hold on to hope that she will get help and we can be the family we both want.   I know if we divorce she will not get help and spiral down until dead.

At this point I give her 50% chance of suicide attempt and 20% chance of success.   But I have to protect our children first...  it’s breaking my heart to have to choose.

Anyone have advice or stories of hope under similar circumstances?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Oh my...with so much on your plate, yet you are still able to sort out priorities.  I commend you for taking a stand for your kids and making the hard calls.

OK..it sounds like you have tried restraining orders before and perhaps she "won" (I may have misread/misunderstood this).  Can you clarify the legal history here?

You have asked some important questions.  Given her instability, I think you should sit all of that aside for now.  Make sure to get the restraining orders in place, make sure you and the kids are getting the medical and mental health care everyone needs and then you can begin sorting through next steps.

Can you tell us more about this therapist that you seem believe is a negative influence?  Is this therapist still involved?  Have you heard what the therapist said directly or are you getting 2nd hand reports?

Hey..bravo to you for protecting your family.  Hang in there!

I'll check back soon for your responses.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

March 5th was the initial assault where I ended up at the neighbors in my underwear. As a side note I’ve made an official complaint of gender bias against the local police. Cant imagine a woman showing up half naked because her husband tore pants off and shirt in two and then ended up at a neighbors holding twin toddlers with marks on her neck.. and the man isn’t arrested but instead allowed to stay in the house. Curiously, she was the one who called 911 claiming I was out of my mind and ran across the street in my underwear with our children and that she “accidentally” scratched me as she was trying to protect them. Learned that at the hearing.

My wife’s politics are conservative, and has generally held a conservative position on racism.  Her therapist is far left politically.  My wife has told me she enjoys sessions with her therapist, which is frightening for someone with BPD to say, and that she “emboldens” women.  After ten years together for her to start calling me out for being white and claiming I don’t understand a strong Latina woman seems too coincidental.  They discontinued treatment a month ago. My wife had agreed to DBT (again) and has two evaluations scheduled, which I insisted on after March. Unsure if she will follow through.

I have a victims advocate through the county, and we are meeting to fill out the restraining order together on Tuesday. There is a “no contact” order for me and the house mandatory with her release until the judge lifts it. I was told that generally takes 6-12 weeks, but with her belligerent behavior toward the judge I expect it will be on the long side. That order doesn’t specify anything about the children so I need to get them covered 

I’ve informed the DA office about her mental health and suicide concerns. I’m hoping her outburst will help steer them in that direction. They have limited mental health program slots and try to get violent offenders in anger management and parenting classes instead.

Four days after the March 5th attack, I consulted an attorney on the DHS issue who advised that if I didn’t get a restraining order I would lose the kids on a second occurrence. She won her appeal even though I had physical evidence and caught her in obvious lies on the other two acts of violence she committed with the kids in my arms. Should have discredited her claims of self defense. She admitted hitting me with a broom while holding our son, but claimed she was defending herself. Then claimed that I was smooshing myself and our daughter between the SUV and the door as she tried to open it and stop me.  Unclear how one closes the door on themselves to injure their child, but whatever.

I’m assuming that the next judge will be embarrassed enough that a judge dismissed a restraining order and less than three weeks later the abused had a broken toe, cuts and scrapes along with damaged property. She broke my work phone and laptop forcing me to miss work for a few days.  Also, I have 15 minutes of video where she is in an irrational rage and I am calm throughout as she is trying to “destroy every f’ing thing in this house”.  Should make things crystal clear to the judge.

She has apparently been telling her family for years that I am angry, violent, and abusive... so they won’t listen to my concerns.  I am unfortunately her only hope for getting her to seek the help she needs at this point. Until she has a failed suicide attempt. Since she can’t talk to me, and probably wouldn’t listen anyway, my only hope is that she will do it to get the restraining order lifted.

So, I have to take a stand that only supervised visits until cleared by a psychiatrist, which with her history of stopping medication and not sticking with a therapist will be 6-12 months minimum if ever.  And without my calming influence and safety I create... downward spiral and self harm, there were two suicide attempts prior to her getting on meds 25 years ago.

Oh, her longest relationship had been 6 months, we made it ten years.

About ten days ago she said that if she had lost the restraining order appeal (and unable to see the kids unsupervised) she would have gone to Mexico to a veterinarian to get a euthanasia pill to have a suicide that wouldn’t be messy or traumatic for whoever found her.   After ten years and frequent suicide ideation I believe her.

[formflier]

Do you have proof of what she said about suicide/going to mexico?  (like a recording or text of it)

So..for clarity...you are hearing 2nd hand what the T is telling your wife.  Is that right?

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Unfortunately she is very careful whenever she discusses suicide.  The only evidence I have is through a couples therapist that stopped seeing us 15 months ago because she admitted she was suicidal in a session.  I had access to her photos a few weeks ago with her permission.. I saw a bunch there on suicide, but was trying not to invade her privacy and didn’t look hard or gather evidence.

Yes, everything on the therapist is 2nd hand. She did have me listen in on one session regarding an issue she had with her family. It sounded like two friends on the phone more than a therapy session, but that isn’t sufficient to claim I have first hand knowledge.

[kells76]

Hi Ventak, really glad you're posting here.

I'm joining with formflier to recognize how you've prioritized your children. Your kids need your strong protection now more than ever. Good job for taking them out of the house with you when, unfortunately, your wife was out of control.

...ifI let her access me or the twins and anything happens I will lose them. Our family doctor told me she is unstable and I need to protect the children...

Advice? I can't emphasize enough: Believe what DHS is telling you, and act accordingly. Please, please continue to do what you're doing, which is protecting the kids and not letting them be around your W until a legally protective structure is in place.

...I have to protect our children first

Yes, keep that in mind. As sad as the whole situation is, she is an adult. Without you and your stability, your babies have nobody.

Please stay strong in case she attempts to "charm" you back. That would be devastating to your children's safety. If over the course of 10 years, all the "charming" attempts and "vows to change" etc have ended in... this... then, why would whatever she tries next be different?

Get your kids (and you) safe and stable. If this arrest has been her "rock bottom" and wake-up call (which, of course, I would pray that it is, but assume that it isn't), then she, as an adult, will be able to understand why she needs supervised visitation (if any) for a LONG time (not just "a week") in order to be a safe parent again.

...

Ventak, do you have a lawyer?

...

Hang in there, and keep posting;

kells76

[formflier]

...

Ventak, do you have a lawyer?

 

Gosh..I wish I had more time to devote to this threat.  Can't believe this didn't come to mind.

Plus...the part about your pediatrician expressing concern.

This is not a "do it yourself" project. 

Retain a lawyer, have the lawyer get appropriate sworn statements from pediatricians (and others that may be relevant) and make sure all available protections are in place.

Be strong...this is going to be a marathon!

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

I have consulted an attorney on the DHS case, which is how I decided to get the restraining order on March 9th.  He is quite positive my losing on appeal was gender biased and was fairly certain he knew which judge I got...

Because she was arrested, I have advocates and legal help through county domestic violence resources. Oregon was historically lax in DV handling and they over corrected in 2004.  I suspect this is why the local police were reluctant to arrest on the first big attack in March.  I assume she will once again appeal the restraining orders.  I also assume since I had to call 911 twice after she won the appeal and she was arrested the second time that the local judges will be a bit embarrassed by their error. I’m not relying on that though, and will be pushing to get an attorney through the county to help if she does appeal. Any judge that watches the video I have and doesn’t uphold the order should be fired on the spot... but I’ve been burned so plan to prepare.

If I win the appeal, it is baked in for one year unless I choose to rescind and a judge let’s me. I won’t without a psychiatrist I trust giving a green light, and I won’t trust a psychiatrist that gives the green light after a few months.

If she decides on divorce, her chances at custody are near zero. Joint custody is only approved when sought by both parties, and the law does not allow domestic violence abusers to have sole custody.  Assuming I get the restraining order in place, her best hope is supervised visit for a year followed by scheduled visitation.

If she wins appeal on the restraining order, divorce will be my only option to protect the kids.  At that time I need to hire a damned good lawyer.

I’m still holding on to the 5% chance that this will be her rock bottom and she will be the rational woman I met ten years ago... but I’m losing hope.

[formflier]

I'm concerned at terms here.

"consulted" and "retained" are entirely different terms.

I can't imagine anyone going through this without an attorney they have retained and is now ethically bound to advocate for their clients best interests.  That client being you and your children.

Also consider that just because you file for divorce..doesn't mean you get divorced...but it put's in place (potentially puts in place) very strong protections for custody, visitation and other things.

No..I'm not telling you to file divorce.  I am telling you that should be something you and the attorney you have retained consider very carefully...

You have a lot on the line here...don't go cheap on this.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Thanks FF. In Oregon a restraining order puts those same custody restrictions in place in addition to outlining rules for contact with me , the house, and the children.  The original order gave her text, and video access to me and the children and supervised visitation 2 hours daily.  I don’t plan to be that generous this time if for no other reason than she only used the visitation once and missed 3 of the 5 video sessions scheduled.  It is as complete and binding as a divorce filing temporary plan would be, but much easier to get because violence is already established.  

I had planned to retain the attorney, but he said it wasn’t necessary. I suspect he was right.

The county offers attorney services for victims of domestic violence, and I will be pursuing those at my appointment Tuesday of this week.  It is unclear if they will represent me at an appeal, I will know more then but I believe they do.

One of her “mental health needs” is shopping to fill the void.  We are in Chapter 13 bankruptcy because of it, so not going cheap means I don’t pay taxes and may lose the house. I will do so if needed, but that causes different trauma to the kids, and being 8 years from retirement will cause considerable financial hardship if I lose equity in the home.

[formflier]

I would resist "the bare minimum". 

Perhaps it is possible to do this without retaining an attorney...but is it wise...or best?

Now that I've heard about financial issues...I'm doubly concerned that you have YOUR L.  There may be a way to shift finances and burdens to her.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

She hasn’t worked in nine years. Four miscarriages and five babies lost in 2nd trimester takes a toll on you... depression, anxiety, fibromyalgia, auto-immune disease, inflammation have her bedridden most days. The silver lining being that the twins don’t miss mama because they’ve gone 3 weeks not seeing her in the same house in November, and only seeing her a couple hours most days.

I will be lucky if I don’t have to support her financially at the end of all this.

Taking care of 2 year old twins, a BPD/anti-social diagnosed wife, working full time, and having no friends left is a bit exhausting at 59 ;/. Fortunately I have a great family and two daughters in their thirties who have been a blessing. ((A bit of a whine, and off topic, but I’m feeling a bit sorry for myself now and among friends.

[formflier]

I think you are missing the point of all this.

It may or may not be true that you will be lucky to get out of this without you supporting her financially.

That will be based on the laws of your state and how those laws are applied.

The best chance you have of a positive outcome is to retain a L for YOU and let them work through your situation to see how they can best apply the law.  Especially given the apparent anti-male bias in your area

Repeat that a couple of times.

It's apparent you believe the system will realize it's error (embarrassed judges) and somehow make things right due to embarrassment.

I simply don't believe that is true or likely.

Again...the solution...retain an L..prepare for many difficult conversations and then let them correct the errors of the legal system.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

FF,

Thank you for your patience and assistance.  

I clearly don’t get the point, but continue to think it is a communication issue. I’m both high functioning autistic and emotional right now which is not an ideal combination for discussion.

I understand that I need legal representation should she appeal the restraining order as I expect.  I have a meeting Tuesday with my victims advocate (through the local DA office) and will learn from her what legal assistance is available through that office.  From what I’ve been told, assistance is available but it isn’t clear what that means. My internet research indicates either free or subsidized legal help. I think it is worth learning about these services prior to spending $5k or more on a retainer.

If she chooses not to appeal or loses the appeal, the children and I have a year of protection to sort things out.  It isn’t clear to me what advantage having an attorney in the short term helps with in that scenario. However, I will definitely either retain an attorney myself or use state legal assistance through the RO process since the hearing on appeal will be within a week of her filing.

If she wins on appeal in spite of my having legal representation, then I will need to use the divorce process, at which time a state provided attorney doesn’t feel like the best option.  This sequence of protection was outlined to me by the attorney I consulted who is one of the top family law attorneys in the metro area.  Under this scenario, she still has the no contact order in place for me and our house for at least a month, so urgency isn’t a concern.

Not trying to be obtuse, seeking understanding.  I think we are in general agreement but am open to having missed what other advantages going straight to an attorney without exploring government assistance would bring.

[formflier]

Hey...I get it...which is why I was so clear about saying I don't think you understand.

You appear to be asking about 1 issue (the appeal) and it appears to me that you have an enormous entanglement of intertwined...interdependent...legal issues that all lead to BPD.

Uggg...that's hard to even imagine.

There is a BK of some kind going on.

There is domestic violence going on

There is gender bias apparently going on (against you)

There are various agencies going on.

There is potential for divorce (at least filing to clarify things in court)

And we know...I could probably add several more issues.

If this meeting and potential for a free attorney gets you an attorney that is yours...ethically bound to represent your best interests in ALL of these matters...then great, I drop my concern.

If this meeting results in a free attorney that deals with 1 or 2 of these issues, then you are still ahead..and saved a bunch of money.

You want to know NOW...from an attorney that represents you, that delaying action on these issues is legally beneficial to you.  

What you DON'T want to happen is that a year from now you have a divorce attorney say...I wish we had considered x, y and z a year ago...now we have to wait a, b and c until (fill in the blank can happen)

If you retain and attorney and create a legal strategy that includes waiting...that's great.  You are ahead of the game...and can be confident that you have a legally sound plan for all the issues you face...or potentially face.

Please continue with these meetings, but make sure you ask about all of your issues (this list and more) and get a clear answer about what they can help with.

Be specific...are they "advising" you or "representing" you.


Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Thanks FF, that clarifies things.

I have separate attorneys for the BK and the gender bias issues (considering a civil rights violation lawsuit which resulted in personal injury).  I’ve lodged a formal complaint against the local police who have farmed it out to a private investigator.  Had they done their jobs correctly my family  would be in much better shape today. Or at least my toe and electronics would be, but I think all of us.

I am missing the long term waiting strategy piece, which makes sense.  Unfortunately I’m very intelligent and sometimes trust my own research more than I ought. Though I can’t say I’ve ever suffered because of it, with the emotions I’m dealing with this would be the time for it and as you state the stakes are too high.

Appreciate the feedback and will be in a better place to make informed decisions after my meetings tomorrow.

[formflier]

Any chance those separate attorneys are in the same office/firm?

Perhaps they also do divorce or can at least provide you with a 1 hour consultation to see if there is ANY legal benefit to waiting and/or any benefit from filing now.

Time is valuable...make sure to spend it wisely.  You need legal advice on how to do this.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Hey again Ventak;

Wondering if we have a similar "decision tree" approach to things.

So, in the near past, I "lost" a relative's boat. OK, it was a rowboat, and I didn't know the river was going to rise that suddenly, but yes, it was not up on the bank in the morning. Large lost boat.

First question(s): Where is the boat/I don't see the boat.

Considering: If I could see the boat, or if it were still on the bank, there'd be no more questions.

Second: Because I don't see the boat, should I go look for it?

Considering: is it likely find-able? Yes, it's a river not a lake, and theft was unlikely.

Third, because the boat is not there but is likely find-able, where should I look?

Considering: river ends in the ocean, so probably the mouth of the river

Fourth: Husband considered the boat a lost cause, and was ready to write the check. I had a sense of "family responsibility" and "I should at least try the most likely spot". Should I go to the mouth of the river to look for the boat?

Considering: it is kind of stormy out, could be dangerous, no guarantee it's there, might not have help from DH.

So we walked down and saw it on the opposite bank of the river, up on some rocks. Tide was coming in, so it was "now or never" to get it back.

But: we did see it there, so it led to a totally different cascade of decisions that if we'd gone down and either (a) did not see it anywhere, or (b) saw it but in an unsafe location.

By the time we hefted it back up the cliff, the new decision was: do we hand carry it all the way back or get the car? Note: that was never a question back at the start of the decision tree (where is the boat) because we hadn't gotten there yet.

Long story short, nobody blacked out or got kidnapped on the way back (close call on both) and a week later we hauled it out of a stranger's backyard back to our place in the truck. Happy ending!

All that to say: It sounds to me like Tuesday will be a "decision tree" day for you. There are a lot of "what ifs" that hopefully get un-what-iffed tomorrow. I know I do better with "decisions are X, Y, and Z moving forward" once I solve the "is it A or W... then I know if it's B or X next" part. No sense planning definitively on Y if you don't know which fork you'll take.

So, waiting one day for a cascade of helpful, decision-making info makes sense. After that, I'm with formflier:

What you DON'T want to happen is that a year from now you have a divorce attorney say...I wish we had considered x, y and z a year ago...now we have to wait a, b and c until (fill in the blank can happen)

After Tuesday, if it were me, I'd find that out.

I say this having read a lot of stories on this board, and having gained a "feel" for when a member "has the momentum" to really make things solid for the kids. You have that momentum, big time. Pulling all the loose ends together now will take lot of effort, yes, that will pay off for your kids so much in the long run.

It may be a lot of lawyers at first. Better to have "too many" at the start, and then consolidate, as formflier suggests.

Perhaps they also do divorce or can at least provide you with a 1 hour consultation to see if there is ANY legal benefit to waiting and/or any benefit from filing now.

Yeah, that's my mantra: "better to get the info now, to help make decisions later".

I also have this nagging sense that your W has been caught very off-guard. I cannot imagine it was "in her plans" to get arrested. I suspect it was more "in her plans" to make you the bad guy. So, she is off balance. The longer things draw out, the more "back on balance" she will get, and the less momentum you may have. That is just a "gut feeling" thing based on your story.

But again, all that being said, after tomorrow, with your new info, see about checking with a divorce lawyer and lay it out: "Here's the situation, here are the 2 other L's helping me out, would waiting until X and Y happen bring some benefit to me that I'm not seeing, or would acting immediately before A and B happen bring a bigger benefit?"

So, please keep us posted on how things go tomorrow, and how your "decision tree" evolves.

Hope all that makes sense.

And... please know that you really, really deserve recognition for putting your twins first. I know we "just met" on this board, but I hope you can hear that from me -- you did the right thing, 110%. Please be kind to yourself through this process.

all the best;

kells76

[Ventak]

Thanks kells,

I generally define how my brain works as the roots of a tree... traversing all possible outcomes, applying weighted probability, and best responses based on expected results. Very much a decision tree, but layers of complexity overanalyzed and updated with every new bit of information. Does that make sense?

My primary roadblock is that I also remember the first 9.5 wonderful years, although volatile there was a pattern and rationale there. Since going off her psych meds after 25 years it has been a rapid decline of destructive and dangerous behavior. But yet... I can’t embrace divorce because I can’t stop myself from thinking “if only she would go back on her psych meds everything can be okay”.   I know we have pushed passed that, and consistent therapy, meds, and DBT are needed all together... but the eternal optimist in me just can’t stop hoping for that 5% chance.

This is where being autistic is an advantage. I think I can more easily separate that emotional toil, and focus on the intellectual need to set aside my love for who she was 7 months ago to make sure our children get the emotional and physical safety they need and deserve.

Will update tomorrow night.

[formflier]

It's about the questions...

Right now you want to make sure no question goes unasked.

Make sure the Ls know this is a "high conflict" person...and not someone that will be making rational legal decisions.

In other words she may try things that have no benefit..or actually a detriment...to her.

You've got this...ask questions.

Switching gears. 

Filing for divorce is much different than finalizing a divorce.  You want to ask if money and debt splits are as of the filing date...or some other date. 

Also ask how divorce will affect a BK filing that is in process.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Well, it was definitely an interesting day.

As expected my RO sailed through without issue.  I have full custody of our 2.5 year old twins, she has supervised visitation of 4 hours/week minimum at her expense.  My advocate was able to get the judge to let me put in that parenting time can be moved to unsupervised with safety clearance from a psychologist.  This was true whether it was stated or not, but hearing this from the courts will be believed, but hearing it from me would not.

My advocate through the DA's office told me they are asking for the mental health option and not the diversion program (anger mgmt), and that the DDA witnessed her mental health issues firsthand.  She won the public defenders lottery and has an above average attorney that doesn't do much public work.  Unclear if this is good or bad yet...  good if he can talk her into taking the plea with the MH option.

The advocate said that the meeting on the 26th is almost always an ask for more time.  However, it isn't usually with a pwBPD that is convinced she is innocent so I'm not getting my hopes up.  Will be a clear indicator of how much the attorney is able to get through to her.

The advocate also mentioned that attorneys will always advise against fighting the RO.  It is very rare to win with an ongoing criminal case, and the RO appeal hearing is just a good way for the prosecutor to get all the ammunition they need on what the defense case will be.  Makes sense, and again will be a clear indicator of how much the attorney is able to get through to her.

The advocate gave me three resources for legal help, all of which have a financial need component.  So not really worth my time pursuing, and I've set up a meeting with the attorney recommended by my advocate... who she "fears and respects".

That meeting is scheduled for Thursday morning, and I'm working on my list of questions.  Anything anyone wants to help with possible questions would be GREATLY appreciated.

My focus for now is on short term decisions affecting long term divorce options and having her help me defend the RO if it is appealed.

[formflier]

The advocate gave me three resources for legal help, all of which have a financial need component.  So not really worth my time pursuing, and I've set up a meeting with the attorney recommended by my advocate... who she "fears and respects".
 

Can you expand on this...not sure what this means.  "So not really worth my time"

What is not worth your time?

Get all the free help you can.  Deliberately work through your questions that we've listed out and continue to add to the list.

I get the vibe that you see "filing for divorce" and "getting divorced" as one and the same.  That's understandable, yet I also think it's helpful to consider "filing for divorce" as a legitimate part of your legal "bag of tools".

Not saying to file.  I am saying to deeply investigate the option with an L that you have retained (through free or paid means)...to make sure that waiting is in your best interests.

So pleased about the RO!   

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Sorry for the confusion.  Even though we are in Ch.13 bankruptcy, my income is considered upper middle class so any government assistance based on income is not going to happen. I will reach out to the one that she said was most likely on the 1% chance they would help... but my expectations are near zero and I don’t want to waste time on the less likely sources who are more financially driven.  The state offers about $100k of assistance for DV victims (health, lodging, etc..) without financial need assessment and I had hoped the legal would fit under that same umbrella, but apparently not.

I understand the point you made about filing and it made a lot of sense. I will discuss with the L, especially the part about when financial snapshot is taken. However, my W will not understand the difference, and will feel completely abandoned if I file as this is one of the things her distorted mind clings to (she keeps asking and I keep saying no, since week 2 about 8 years ago).  I fear that me filing will shatter her world.  There would have to be a significant advantage to our children for me to even consider that option.

[kells76]

Really good to hear back from you, Ventak.

I have full custody of our 2.5 year old twins, she has supervised visitation of 4 hours/week minimum at her expense.  My advocate was able to get the judge to let me put in that parenting time can be moved to unsupervised with safety clearance from a psychologist.  This was true whether it was stated or not, but hearing this from the courts will be believed, but hearing it from me would not.

What good news for your kids.

Wise move on getting the "supervised --> unsupervised" transition criterion made explicit, and NOT your decision.

The advocate said that the meeting on the 26th is almost always an ask for more time.

Am I tracking correctly, that the "ask for more time" has to do with your W and/or her representative asking for more time for... something? What is the something?

The advocate gave me three resources for legal help, all of which have a financial need component.  So not really worth my time pursuing

Yeah, I assumed it had to do with income. Makes sense.

I've set up a meeting with the attorney recommended by my advocate

Good stuff. Do you know yet this attorney's area(s) of expertise?

Anything anyone wants to help with possible questions would be GREATLY appreciated.

My focus for now is on short term decisions affecting long term divorce options and having her help me defend the RO if it is appealed.

OK, will ponder some useful questions for an initial meeting.

...

Not saying to file.  I am saying to deeply investigate the option with an L that you have retained (through free or paid means)...to make sure that waiting is in your best interests.

That would be near the top of my questions list, something like:

"What would be the advantage of filing for divorce now, and what criteria would I want to look at to decide on now? What would be the advantage of filing later, and what criteria would I look at to decide on later?"

I would also be asking: "What message might I be sending to the court/legal system if, after all this, I file for divorce ASAP? What message might I be sending if I do not file for divorce ASAP?"

I'm not super familiar with how the court system looks at "tacit messages". However, I have heard some stories (and I am not saying this about you, just using a different story as an illustration) about how if a DV victim goes to court, gets protection/a RO, then gets back together with the perpetrator, then DV happens again, then the victim goes back to court, etc... eventually, a "tacit message" gets sent, that the DV victim is not ready to leave the perpetrator, and the court may be more reluctant to intervene in a "rinse, repeat" cycle. Again, I am not saying that about you, just illustrating that sometimes things can get communicated tacitly to the court system about one's "seriousness". It could be that signaling/communicating "seriously done" could get more backup from the court than signaling "not sure about being done".

Ultimately, though, ask your attorney about that scenario. Like you mentioned, your state has a certain "view" on things (male vs female, color of skin, DV, etc etc etc), so perhaps you can use "tacit messaging" to your advantage given the reality of how the court system works there.

...

I had hoped the legal would fit under that same umbrella, but apparently not.

Ugh... sorry. As if legal aid isn't just as important as housing in a DV scenario.

my W will not understand the difference, and will feel completely abandoned if I file as this is one of the things her distorted mind clings to

I wonder if "that horse has left the barn" already. She has attacked you in front of the children and lost it in court so badly that she had to be restrained. I do not think that there is anything where "as long as you are extra careful to do the right thing", she will be guaranteed to "feel not as bad". It may be that she feels a certain way if you file... or she may not. Or she may feel something completely unpredictable. Whatever the case, how she feels is her responsibility. I know that intellectually you know that, as do I, and yet that pull towards "but if I just don't do that one thing, I will make sure she is more OK" is a strong pull. It isn't true, though. She is the one in charge of managing her feelings and reactions. It is too bad if she chooses not to do so when encountering reality. Please consider not making important life decisions based on how she may feel.

It would be sad if she chose to react so strongly if you filed, that she "hit rock bottom". And yet, who is to say that that couldn't possibly be good for her? I'm not suggesting "yay, how happy and great when people lose it and bottom out". I am suggesting: what if experiencing the natural feelings, consequences, and fallout of her uncontrolled reactions, absent any "softening" or "sugar coating" or "management" from others, could be a turning point in her life?

...

I fear that me filing will shatter her world.  There would have to be a significant advantage to our children for me to even consider that option.

Again, please put your children's wellbeing at the top.

I hear that you have full custody of the kids right now, pre divorce. What if filing for and/or following through on divorce cemented that in stone? Otherwise, when X timeline of the RO is done... do you "lose" full custody and it goes back to "equal rights" to the kids?

[formflier]

  I fear that me filing will shatter her world.  There would have to be a significant advantage to our children for me to even consider that option.

Please don't make a divorce filing or any other legal thing "about her".  About you primarily...children second.

Seriously...

Your children need a "full up round" parent...with as much mental health and available resources as possible.

Big breath here...I'm not arguing with you or trying to be a smart azz with these questions...they are serious ones to ask.

So...reflect a bit..challenge yourself on the "don't want her to feel completely abandoned".

Do you really believe she feels you have only "partially abandoned her" right now..and she holds you at some level of esteem? 

So...it's ok for RO and arrest...she's ok with that but divorce (or divorce filing)...that would be the killer for her? 

Again..serious questions...please be kind to yourself, it's going to uncomfortable working through those.

Last for now.  I get it that you "want the best" for your wife..you want her to get better.

Do you have any evidence/have you seen anything that she has "hit bottom" and "seen the light"?  (i don't get that vibe..but an important question to clarify)


Most people (bpd and otherwise) don't make big changes to their life until they "hit bottom". 

So there is an argument to be made that your appropriate boundaries (filing divorce perhaps being part of that) also might have the benefit of helping her "hit bottom".

Sadly...we also know that many never "hit bottom" or "see the light".

There's just no way to know.

So...look out for yourself first...your children second.

Put on your own oxygen mask first!

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Am I tracking correctly, that the "ask for more time" has to do with your W and/or her representative asking for more time for... something? What is the something?

The public defender was appointed on Tuesday this week, the hearing is scheduled for Monday of next week, almost all attorneys will ask for more time (4 weeks according to my advocate) to understand the case and better advise their client on options.

Good stuff. Do you know yet this attorney's area(s) of expertise?

Her PD is a DUII specialist with wine growers a secondary, mine is a Family Law specialist in a Family Law only firm, with primary emphasis on restraining orders, and secondary on divorce.

It would be sad if she chose to react so strongly if you filed, that she "hit rock bottom". And yet, who is to say that that couldn't possibly be good for her? I'm not suggesting "yay, how happy and great when people lose it and bottom out". I am suggesting: what if experiencing the natural feelings, consequences, and fallout of her uncontrolled reactions, absent any "softening" or "sugar coating" or "management" from others, could be a turning point in her life?

I keep bouncing between my ten years of training of doing everything for her and trying to drive her into hitting rock bottom in the hopes she comes out healthier.  I'm researching the effects of a BPD mother on her children which is bouncing me closer to the helping her hit rock bottom, though it breaks my heart.

Again, please put your children's wellbeing at the top.

I hear that you have full custody of the kids right now, pre divorce. What if filing for and/or following through on divorce cemented that in stone? Otherwise, when X timeline of the RO is done... do you "lose" full custody and it goes back to "equal rights" to the kids?

Assuming no appeal or I win the appeal, the RO is good for 1 year.  My expectation is that within the next 6 months she will be on the road to recovery in a big way or I will be filing for divorce... However, I suspect under that scenario she will be filing first ignoring that she has no chance of getting sole or joint custody in this state.  Back to a previous comment about her irrationally making legal moves against her better interest.

That is one of the primary areas of focus I will be discussing with my attorney tomorrow.

[Ventak]

Your children need a "full up round" parent...with as much mental health and available resources as possible.

Big breath here...I'm not arguing with you or trying to be a smart azz with these questions...they are serious ones to ask.

I understand this, and am doing a lot of research on growing up with a BPD mother to help me focus on keeping my current momentum going.  I am in a frequent battle between my brain and my heart.  My brain almost always wins, but keeping it reminded helps..

I haven't even come close to thinking you were being smart azz.. you have been incredibly helpful.

Do you really believe she feels you have only "partially abandoned her" right now..and she holds you at some level of esteem? 

So...it's ok for RO and arrest...she's ok with that but divorce (or divorce filing)...that would be the killer for her? 

Actually, yes.  After the March attack and RO (no arrest) she had many moments of lucidity, we had some of the best discussions we've had in years.  She made appointments for two different psych evaluations.  I noticed that both acts of extreme violence came after we had the best 2-3 weeks since she went off the psych meds.  Typically when things are going really well she goes through a pushaway phase.  Unfortunately when off the meds those pushaways have a psychosis/violence component as I've been learning.  One of her key "complaints" has always been that "I won't let her get a divorce", which is of course patently absurd since we live in a no fault state and divorce is cheap and easy.  I've always felt that was her safety net... no matter how bad she treated me, I would always refuse divorce as an option... even after she attacked me and I needed to get a RO to protect myself and the kids.

Do you have any evidence/have you seen anything that she has "hit bottom" and "seen the light"?  (i don't get that vibe..but an important question to clarify)

No, in fact the opposite.  The way I see this play out is that she insists on a trial, loses the trial, and the judge assigns her to the mental health program at the recommendation of both the prosecutor, defense and victim.  My research indicates that if you don't take the plea deal and lose at trial you get everything you would have gotten by taking the plea deal, but at max levels plus 30 days in jail.  Whether that is rock bottom or not... they test to make sure you are taking your meds, and you must attend the psychiatric sessions or you return to jail.  My small hope is that she sticks through the program and her rational mind returns.  Prior to this she was one of the most logical and intelligent people I've known.

So...look out for yourself first...your children second.

Put on your own oxygen mask first!

Best,
FF

Thanks again for all the support and advice.  You have truly been god sent.

[Ventak]

UPDATE:

Thanks for all the help, you all have been God sent and I'm in a much better situation thanks to your advice.

Legal issues have been resolved:

I "won" the restraining order battles, with help of an excellent attorney.  This puts her in the "Adjudicated Abuser" category, even after her misdemeanor charge is dismissed.  State law prohibits her from ever having sole or joint custody, so if we ultimately divorce I will have sole custody.  The RO gives her supervised visitation only, and is good for another 11 months unless I renew it.  I have added a clause that allows visitation to be unsupervised once she is cleared for safety by a psychiatrist.  According to my attorney, this will also have a positive effect on future parenting plans if we divorce, as good as it can in these situations.

She took a plea deal and is on 18 months probation as she attends multiple classes.  The courses contain some DBT material, and focus on the responsibility/accountability aspects of DV.  She must attend a monthly hearing where her progress will be updated to the judge and decisions made on her case.  There is a lie detector piece to this as I understand it, so it might be difficult to manipulate the system.

We are likely 2-6 months from being able to talk to one another.  For now she is safe with her family, and has finally started seeing the children.

Distance is a great forcing function to really understand how you've been living.  While I still lover her immensely and hope she gets the healing she needs... I realize that it will be months from now that we can even begin discussing the future, and that for the sake of my children I have to put her needs secondary.  My "hope" is near zero, but I have a clear conscience that I've been doing the right things for the right reasons.

[kells76]

Just want to say it's great to hear from you again. Glad your babies are safe and you are too.
The feeling
of wanting your kids' mom to get healthy and stable is relatable. It's a wonderful thing to want for someone. All you can do is hope she uses this time "at rock bottom" to be responsible for herself and her feelings and responses.
Take your time getting back in touch with her and stick to exactly what the court orders and RO's say. While it may be sad that she has so little contact with the kids, that is what she chose, and it's not your job to "heal the family" or "bring people back together". It's her own job to work on herself, no matter the emotional appeals she may make to you in the future.
Do you have some help with childcare? Twins sound like... a lot 
Cheers!
kells76

[Ventak]

Thanks Kells,

It's a constant conflict wanting to help her but knowing it's not in anyone's best interest.  This is one area where the state's laws seem harsh but are helpful for the victim.  While I still want the best for her, I also know that I won't go back to the way things were, ever.  I'm finally beginning to understand what my therapist has meant when she talks about setting boundaries and living to them.  Nothing like weeks of peaceful living to sort out the mind.

The twins are 2.5 years old, both autistic, and very lovable ;)  Working full time from home it is very challenging and my day is literally overfull until I fall asleep exhausted.  I'm in my 50's and our agreement pre-children was that she would have to do most of the work, .  I just don't have the energy I need to do things the way I really want to.  I do get some help from my parents once a week in the morning which is nice.  I've also just applied for children's' disability and some in-home autism therapy now that I have an official diagnosis... both take a while to resolve, but should get me the help I need.  Unfortunately one of W's mental "therapies" is shopping so we are in bankruptcy and I can't afford child care for a while.  I've been able to trim the budget quite a bit though the past few months ;)