Is there anything to do?

[Snow80]

I don't even know where to start since this pattern has been going on since they first met...
Here we are, 5 kids and 12 years later,  and my SIL (undiagnosed BPD, but many therapists have suspected based on my brother's experiences) has sent our family a group text explaining why we don't have a better relationship (like no relationship) with her and the five kids.
Of course, it's because my brother is a compulsive liar and has mental issues she won't get into right now. She has monitored everything and has now seen all texts and correspondence throughout the many attempts he has made to leave. She claims everything he has ever told us about her is a lie and she has been abused by him since the beginning and we have been stabbing her in the back.  We have been so worried about him since the beginning...she has completely isolated him from all of his family and friends...there have been so many red flags throughout their relationship, and when he had been going to therapy, he was able to see it.

He is in so deep - has almost left multiple times, but never could...
My brother is gone...and now we're the ones to blame for everything.

Now she's told us that he needs time to heal from our abuse towards him and not to contact them...

There isn't anything to do...

[Snow80]

Are there any positive outcomes after being cut out from the BPD part of the family? Do we honor her request for no contact at all... giving her what she wants?

[AuntWithBPDNiece]

Snow,

Thank you for sharing.  I am so sorry, this sounds like an awful situation. 

When was the last time you talked to your brother? 
You mention he was in therapy but stopped going? 
What do you mean by the statement that your brother is gone? 
What is that you are hoping to accomplish with contacting them? 

Aunt

[Snow80]

He quit going to therapy a while ago...he's been to many different therapists.  The last one that seemed to be making a difference was from the family violence center, but she moved and I think the new therapist didn't connect the same way.  I think he quit going in 2019. I know that the therapy helped keep him more clear headed - and keep him out of being swallowed up into her world.

I lasted talked to him two weeks ago.  He didn't look good.
I say that my brother is gone because he seems like a shell of a person.  In order to be with her, he can't be himself at all.  He has no contact with any of his family or friends.  He does go to work, and luckily they know the situation (it's been trouble for years).  I know that they are kind of looking out for him, they've tried to convince him to leave many times.  At one point, he almost lost his job because of her.

I haven't contacted them because I know it's pointless.  I go between staying away because I had already been processing the loss - we've been on the outside for years.  But also anger - because I don't want to feel like she's controlling me...

I still wonder if he really has been honest about everything - but I doubt it.  Does she know that he had a secret phone so he could contact a lawyer and the therapists - since she keeps track of him in every way - GPS, phones, websites, social media, messaging, etc.

[Notwendy]

Snow, I think this is one of the most difficult aspects of a BPD relationship- the isolation of the partner from family and friends.

I did lose my father to these kind of dynamics. I could't believe that my BPD mother could impact the parent- (adult) child relationship but she was able to. And it took both- she was able to do it and he allowed it to happen ( likely out of fear of her anger).

One aspect that helped me to understand the dynamics is the Karpman triangle. I think that pwBPD take victim perspective. My father was a strong rescuer. I think the victim-rescuer bond is very strong. Rather than look at the conflict between them, the two align against a common persecutor. This is a way, creates stability for this bond. Both gain something from these roles.

But for this to happen, there needs to be a persecutor, and I could see that several people or events took persecutor position. And the positions sometimes alternated. If she was upset with my father, she's draw a child to her side. I have been her scapegoat child. However, my father was consistently her rescuer.

What caused the major split was that my father was ill ( and eventually passed away) and her behavior escalated and I took some action about that. I had no idea that this would bring the Karpman triangle into full action.

What you see with your brother is a kind of full enmeshment. I saw this with my father. It was as if they were one person and that one person was the will of my mother. She read my emails to him, listened in on any phone calls, and anything I said to him that I assumed was in confidence, he reported to her.

If I had any advice, I think it would be to step off the Karpman triangle with them. Assume anything you say to him is going to be shared with her. This doesn't mean cutting communication off but staying completely neutral. Don't try to "rescue" him- this is a step into persecutor position. Don't let him vent to you, that is triangulation. Be pleasant, let him know you care about him but that you understand the relationship is his choice and that it's up to him to manage it.

You perceive your brother as the victim of his wife. I perceived my father like this too. I then later understood that there was choice on his part too. There was something about him that also caused him to take on the enabler/rescue role and he also emotionally got something out of it, or he would not have done it. Yes it was difficult for him too. However, people who are addicted to substances also continue these behaviors even if they cause them and their family harm as well. The highs and lows of these kinds of relationships can mimic addictions. Co dependency can be an addiction, and I think my father was somehow drawn to the dynamics.

Ultimately your brother needs to decide that he's had enough of this, if he ever decides. He also has the responsibility of his children and that's important to him. One thing I learned is that, any time I tried to step in as "rescuer" with my father, it served to be the "persecutor" for my parents. Yes, this was hurtful and it felt personal. I was only trying to "help". I suspect you too have tried to help your brother and while he seemed to respond, it eventually took on that direction too. Shifting to neutral ( I know it isn't easy) and staying away from the triangle dynamics will at least hopefully be more peaceful for you. His wife will think what she thinks- there's no way to control that.

[Snow80]

She has it in her mind that all the problems with their marriage and my brother are because of us.  We’ve hardly had any relationship with him for the past 4 years and it was minimal for the 8 years before.
I understand trying to stay neutral...it is hard to figure out what to do in each situation.  Our family has a music school and we have given all of the kids free lessons forever- even after telling us we aren’t to have any contact and are the worst people in the world, they are still showing up to class (online not in person).  Part of me feels completely used and it makes me mad... but I also see the kids... but I hardly know them.
Now she has texted my mom to ask if she read some letter she sent to her two years ago.  My dad read it and decided my mom didn’t need to read it, so she never had...basically more blame for everything wrong with my brother.
We haven’t responded to her texts... she is very ugly and says awful things.  There isn’t anything to respond and I am tired of the toxic relationship. 
Is she trying to get us in the triangle? Trying to get us upset enough to do something?  I think I’ll just block her number - I just don’t think I need to see her mean texts anymore.

[Snow80]

My brother has not called, texted, or said anything during this whole time - and he hasn’t shared anything with me about issues with her since the time he almost left in the fall of 2019...

[AuntWithBPDNiece]

Snow,

I encourage you to read up on the Karpman triangle.  Keeping yourself out of the triangle is an important part of maintaining your own mental health.  It does sound like she is trying to pull you back into the drama which, in my experience, is a common tactic.  In my situation, I try to maintain healthy boundaries while having whatever relationship is available within those limits.  But, the more I enforce the boundaries, the more drama that comes up.  I assume this is with the intent to try to pull me back into the triangle. 

I encourage you to consider what NotWendy said about your brother having choices too; it is easy to put the blame entirely on his wife but he still chooses to be in that situation.  It sounds like he has seen plenty of red flags but continues the relationship.  He may be trapped in that triangle and if he doesn't want help, then you won't be able to force him out of it. 

There is a ton of great information here on how to continue to love your brother without letting it overwhelm your own mental health.  And plenty of people to vent to, we have all been there in one way or another.

Aunt

[Notwendy]

My BPD mom disliked my Dad's family and while it was mutual, they knew to not say anything. As we kids got older, BPD mom, school holidays were an issue for BPD mom as having kids home all day was not something she tolerated. That's where we got to stay with my father's family. I suspect they were helping my Dad out by helping with us. I imagine just like you, they may have felt used at the time. But they welcomed us and loved us unconditionally.

Times spent with Dad's family, playing with our cousins, and being away from the drama were a much valued reprieve for us. Ironically, it was a normal environment to my cousins, they just saw it like that. For us, this normal was special.

You may feel used by BPD mom at the moment, but any contact you have with the kids may have more benefits to them than you realize. I know it's irritating but when you teach them music, they benefit and so it may help to focus on that.

Some time ago, we travelled to see them. My BPD mother was furious that she wasn't included. Now that Dad is deceased, we assumed she'd want nothing to do with them, but strangely enough, she was angry they did not invite her. I have no idea why, but I don't think she makes the connection between how she treats people and their response to her.

I am sorry your brother is so enmeshed that he stopped contact with you. The Karpman triangle helps explain this. However, the kids are not willingly part of it, they aren't using you.

[Snow80]

I am conflicted about what to do in the future.  The girls are still attending class online and that seems to be the only communication.  If the pattern continues, they'll start to interact again, acting like nothing happened.
This last exchange has been so incredibly toxic and extreme that in therapy we've been working on dealing with it like a death - the death of my brother.  The thing that I have realized is that in the past I have welcomed any sort of interaction when they come back again, but this time I'm not so sure.

Having been in a marriage with a controlling person (that I ultimately left years ago), I feel more that I have a choice, and right now I don't feel like I would choose to engage with my brother and his family anymore.  It was a long process to get to the point where I am not going to compromise who I am to make someone else happy - I have to be true to myself.  I have tried to be more positive about it working out, but after 12 years of the same stuff over and over again, I know that it's never going to change.  We basically don't have any relationship with them anyways and it never fails that whenever we have any interaction, there's something we've "done" that is to blame for their misery.

I know that my parents will welcome them with open arms...and I don't want to take it to the level of not being at events where they will be there, but I also don't like pretending that everything is ok. Does any of this make sense?  It might be completely moot, since we may never see them in person again anyways...