She seems to have painted everyone black now.

[maxsterling]

Over the past two weeks, W has at some point painted nearly everyone in her life, past or present, black (Including her T).  She has also complained of severe headaches and pain, and been negative about nearly everything.

In my case, its a constant battle of her wanting me to validate the invalid, such as make changes for things that didn't happen or I didn't do, or have zero control over.  Example:  two nights ago we ordered pizza for dinner.  Right after it arrived, she said she was going outside to use medical marijuana before dinner.   It was on the counter, she said she wanted to give the kids more than just pizza to eat, and had prepared them plates.  I took that to mean she wanted the kids to start eating (typical for them to start eating before us).  She went outside, the kids started begging for dinner.  I gave them their plates.   15 minutes later, W came inside and said I was the most thoughtless person she had ever met for getting the kids started eating before her.   Granted, this happens nearly every meal - but somehow that night she wanted something different?

Things had been okay, then my SIL came for a visit about 3 weeks ago.  SIL shared that her S11 had been sexually molested by my nephew, 13 while my sister and her child were staying with them.  This is a HUGE issue, but W has now come after my parents about this, and by association myself for somehow not setting a boundary with my parents, although I have no idea what "boundary" she expects me to have.  I look at it this way - SIL cam to us with drama, and W wants to be a corner of the drama triangle.  Now she is mad at me for not wanting to participate.

Last week we had a MC session where W basically cursed at me the whole time.  I think T was getting a better idea of what was going on.  At one point, she asked for clarification of whether something was happening in front of the kids.  Of course the answer was yes...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Snowflake90]

Sorry to hear your situation.
That's pretty much the norm for BPD. When they're off, it's your fault, no matter what. In your case I can only imagine if you hadn't given the food for the kids until she came back, she would probably yell at you for not serving them before.
'Heads I win, tails you lose."
What can I suggest you? Try to keep your cool and estabilish your boundaries. You can always politely disagree, although it can very often backfire. I just look back on my (failed) marriage and see that I always kept my head down, trying real hard not to set wBPD off, but I ended up exploding like a pressure cooker. I find it ideal to try and always show that it's not a matter of who's right or wrong, but rather that, yelling or senseless criticism is no way to solve any problem, even if there's an actual issue at hand.

[maxsterling]

In fact the opposite did happen a few weeks ago.  We waited and she was mad about that.

[Notwendy]

I guess one conclusion is that the ketamine effect didn't last long. I wish it did. It would be nice to know that there's something out there that can have a dramatic effect. We are now left with knowing there isn't one medication that treats the kind of thinking in BPD. There are medications that can have an effect on moods but not the thinking.

Painting everyone black has more to do with her than who she paints black. And you know it wasn't whether you fed the kids early or waited. This is her emotions impacting her thinking. And if you decide what you are going to do according to her thinking, you will then pivot on these emotions too.

It's good that the MC is getting an idea of the behaviors. 

[maxsterling]

Regarding the Ketamine - her P remarked at how it *should* have worked better.  I attribute this to a "misdiagnosis".  I think pwBPD present themselves differently.  So even if they are depressed, BPD depressed is different neurologically than non-BPD depressed.  Same with PTSD, etc. 

Now she wants to do more ketamine, thinking the dose wasn't right, etc.  I think this is more of an "addict" mentality.  She wants to feel the high from it, thinking the "high" is the cure. 

It truly is heartbreaking to watch.  She is someone who will feel/see personal malice in everyone's intents.  At the same time, she wants closer relationships (very classic BPD).  Yet if I point out that I don't think person X really meant things the way W is feeling it, she is invalidated and rages.  Do I let her then just think person X really is out to get her? I can do that if the person is some friend of hers.  But hard if person X is my own mother. 

[Cat Familiar]

If I remember correctly, the Ketamine treatment combined with the other therapy, was sort of a last ditch hope for you. What are you thinking now?

[maxsterling]

If I remember correctly, the Ketamine treatment combined with the other therapy, was sort of a last ditch hope for you. What are you thinking now?

Not sure.  But I do know something has to change here, on my end.  If finances weren't an issue, I would be leaning towards a separation which we would discuss in MC.  For the short term, I am going to work on as much self care as possible.  Step one is to return to the office full time, or as much as possible.  The space will be good for both of us. 

While the tools here help, especially in understanding what is going on, I've come to accept that I am dealing with an extremely disordered person and even if I am 100% perfect in how I communicate, I am going to have to deal with a ton of chaos.   Far too often I am being asked to validate the invalid, and I just can't do that.  I accept that she has her own feelings and universe of events.  I need to accept that I do, too, and I just can't continually be in an environment where I am being blamed for things I know I had nothing to do with.  I can validate that she feels angry her phone is lost, but how do I validate (with a straight face) for the 3rd time in a day when she wants me to validate that *I* am the cause of her phone being lost?

[Cat Familiar]

Has she painted the kids black too?

My mom did some of that when I was young, but it really increased in my teenage years.

[Snowflake90]

While the tools here help, especially in understanding what is going on, I've come to accept that I am dealing with an extremely disordered person and even if I am 100% perfect in how I communicate, I am going to have to deal with a ton of chaos. 

Precisely why I left. Although in my case things were a bit extreme. I mean the invalidating was the lesser of the issues. My ex would self-harm pretty bad, attempted suicide quite a few times, would have zero energy and just lock herself in the room and sleep all day and finally, let me do all the house chores + parenting.
She was taking a wide range of medication, ketamine included, twice a week. She claims to have stopped now. I hope she's telling the truth. Ketamine is pretty addicting and I remember her trying to stop several times, only to self harm badly just to go back to it.
What really helped me was to constantly assess the situation. Does it look like it could improve? How do you see yourselves in 5,10,20 years? Do you get a knot in the stomach imagining it? I sure did. I was on anxiety medication and she was, in my opinion, at "max treatment level", like all the meds possible, therapy twice a week, psychiatrist once a week and things were still looking grim. I could only see her more or less the same and me tripling my anxiety med.
Usually our gut knows...
Anyway, best of luck to you.

[Notwendy]

The tools help with reducing the conflict and drama patterns in a relationship by improving our own communcation skills. They do not "cure" or change the other person.

The tools are useful to have as they are relationship skills that can help regardless of whether the person chooses to stay or leave the relationship. If there is a divorce or children involved, the two people will need to continue to communicate past the time of the romantic relationship and the tools will continue to help. In the case where the tools lead to less conflict enough that the relationship remains viable, then they continue to help there too.

However, they don't "cure" BPD or change the other person's way of thinking or how they behave. BPD is on a wide spectrum, so some people have milder behaviors and some are severe. I would say most posters don't come here already deciding to leave. They have a confusing situation and don't know what to do. Learning the tools is one good way to start to reduce the conflict before making the decision to stay or leave- at their own pace. It's also possible the BPD partner chooses to leave.

Sometimes I think posters think the tools have some kind of power to make the pwBPD come back or love them, or make them not have BPD- that the tools are something we do to act on the pwBPD. The tools are something we act on ourselves to change our own disfunctional communicatin skills- as the conflict involves two people.

Some people are on the severe end of the BPD spectrum and their thinking is very disordered. I think it is important to understand that we can not change the way another person thinks. What makes BPD difficult is the intermittent moments of "normal" behavior which they seem to have control over, but to me it isn't maintained as the internal thinking is still there. The painting black or white seems to be a part of it. Max, you are trying to control how your wife thinks and it isn't working- because she's going to think what she thinks and you can't control this.

One great Dr. Phil line ( to a family with another disorder but applicable). "You are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out". Max, you keep looking at your wife's feelings and opinions to lead your behaviors. She wants pizza now and you think "this will make me OK with her" and then she wants pizza later and you think "this will make me OK" and then it's not pizza at all. Yes, it's nice to do kind things for people, but if you keep looking to her to be OK with things, it's going to change according to her moods. You need to be the one to decide what is "OK" and stay steady with it.

The painting people black is part of the condition. The Karpman triangle helps explain these dynamics. Anyone can be painted black- you, your mother, your kids, her friends, her medical providers. And also they can be painted "white" sometimes. You can't control how your wife thinks.

I have been painted black by my severe BPD mother more times than I can count. It also got to be more by my adolescence as well, as Cat said. This is probably due to my growing independence as well as the tendency for teens to have moody behavior at times which probably added to the conflict. Your family pattern resembles mine in the way that we were led by my mother's emotions, walking on eggshells, trying to "be good" in her eyes, not knowing what her response or mood would be. She painted my father's family black.

It's not easy to avoid buying into distorted thinking. But you can not control whether or not she paints someone black. It's also possible that who is painted black or white today might be different tomorrow.

[maxsterling]

This morning it was "crumbs on the kitchen counter"

Of course many of the crumbs were from her late night cereal binge that I had to clean up when I woke up.  The rest were from the kids' in-progress breakfast and school snack preparation.  Typically, I find it best to clean up the kitchen after you are done using it, especially if you are trying to quickly prepare something.  So Ws first words were blaming me for the crumbs.  I'm losing patience with taking blame for a mess that was not mine.  I pointed out that some were cereal crumbs, and she lost it, which led to more cursing and name calling in front of the kids (by her).  An instance of wanting me to validate the invalid.  If I try to validate that it is frustrating to find crumbs on the counter when you wake up, that comes across as "passive aggressive" because she knows she left cereal on the counter.   No-win here, and right now I am more inclined to say something than just swallow it again.

Yes, she does paint the kids black for short periods of time.  Especially our daughter because she reacts to moms moods and will run for my comfort.

Wendy - right now I feel like I am in "self preservation" mode.  I'm not trying to fix her, but I am hoping she improves.  My hope is that the "Communication tools" can help diffuse things enough so that we can have meaningful, adult discussions about important stuff.  But right now that does not even seem possible. 

[formflier]

Of course many of the crumbs were from her late night cereal binge that I had to clean up when I woke up.  

I think there is room for improvement here.

The dynamic would certainly shift if she carried her own weight...or at least you didn't help her carry that.

It's good that you look for ways that you might be validating the invalid.  I suspect if you reflect and think about this...you might realize it's a similar thing.

Let her be an adult...even if she does it quite badly.

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Let her be an adult...even if she does it quite badly.

Yes.  I think this is a big issue.  W's view of a r/s is not of equality.  Or more specific her definition of equality is different.  She seems to think as her husband/partner I am obligated to have these kinds of emotional support roles that really are the role of a T.  In other words, she thinks it is my job to manage her business, and she thinks it is her job to manage mine.

Examples: 

If she is having trouble sleeping, it is my job to stay up with her rather than get sleep for myself. 

If she is having troubles with her family or relationships, it is my job to help her solve them.

If she is having trouble making a decision about something (that has zero to do with me), that I am supposed to be active in helping her decide. 

If I don't do those things, I am labeled "uncaring".  She doesn't seem to realize that I (and everyone else) are faced with the same challenges, and just because we don't have time to get deeply involved in hers, that doesn't mean we don't care.  Other people have a full time job managing their own lives. 

Pre-kids, I had more time.  Post kids, I really don't have time to spend 30 minutes going back and forth with her about how to communicate with her stepmom. 

Step one for me is to get back into the office 3 days per week.  Also useful is for me to get more into personal T, not only does it help me, but that is time that she must then work around to take care of herself.  Tonight during T, W will have to make dinner...

[Cat Familiar]

What’s wrong with letting her think you’re “uncaring”?

[formflier]

Since when do we care what a disordered person "thinks"?

Seriously...

We should care and validate those emotions...but trying to sort out their supposedly logical thoughts...naaaaah...skip it.

Again...validating the invalid is important to avoid.


Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Nowadays if I get called selfish, self absorbed, uncaring, or an azzhole, I tend to agree. “Yep, you’ve got my number.”

Takes all the fun out of it for him and is tremendously liberating for me.   

[maxsterling]

What’s wrong with letting her think you’re “uncaring”?

Really good point...

I know I am not.  If she wants to think that, her problem?

[maxsterling]

Since when do we care what a disordered person "thinks"?

I think I have a hard time with this.  Logically, I can make the same comment to others as advice.  But somehow philosophically, I think I believe that I am no judge of who is ordered and disordered, and the thoughts of those whom have a different thought process are still worth considering. 

I've always been the kind of person whom always thought, "let's listen to what this other person has to say..." and not so quick to dismiss someone as "wrong".  There is value in this in some circumstances, but a big handicap in others. 

In the case of W, I married her because I valued her viewpoint, and her views of me.  It's difficult to let go now and say her views are incorrect, and yet still remain in the relationship.  Would I enter into a relationship with someone who thought I was uncaring?  Definitely not.  So why stay in a relationship with someone wo would claim that now?

[once removed]

my take is that your wife is, certainly in a less than constructive way, seeking your attention, your affection, your care, your presence, whatever it may be.

If she wants to think that, her problem?

this is how youre responding.

in my view, you are focusing far more on the day to day interactions, the complaints (frequent as they may be), and how to either "win", or get space from her.

i say that because i get the sense from your posts that you are primarily venting and seeking validation. i get it. youre a long time member who knows the tools, in a long term relationship, that in a lot of ways, has done as much improving as it can. youre not foolish or naive or doing any of this blindly.

all the same, that doesnt mean its not ultimately a destructive way of coping and working your relationship.

She has also complained of severe headaches and pain, and been negative about nearly everything.

i suspect any and all of this (including what you describe in your posts) is little more than about the waxing and waning of your affections and your attention.

are you pulling away? can your wife feel that?

[maxsterling]

are you pulling away? can your wife feel that?

Interesting thoughts here, and something to consider.  Am I pulling away?  I need less attachment (natural self-preservation) so in some ways yes.  But on my end, it has felt for years more like her "pushing" me away.  Emotionally, it is hard for me to get past that, even if I know what is truly going on and that she is desiring more "affection".  So maybe I am wanting to pull away in response to her pushing me away. 

And there is no doubt that at least on a subconscious lever she is trying to "push" me away.  Looking broader, she seems to do this to everyone, and to some extent even the kids.  Almost like she is creating conflict for the purpose of an excuse as to why she is not close to anyone.  My family is an example.  It seems like she wants to start issues with all of them, just so she can complain about how bad they all are.

[once removed]

Interesting thoughts here, and something to consider.  Am I pulling away?  I need less attachment (natural self-preservation) so in some ways yes.

i get this entirely.

long term, you need a combination of the skills/tools, and a thick skin. you need some of that "dont take any  attitude". some.

  But on my end, it has felt for years more like her "pushing" me away.  Emotionally, it is hard for me to get past that, even if I know what is truly going on and that she is desiring more "affection".  So maybe I am wanting to pull away in response to her pushing me away. 

isnt this the crux of it - isnt this the crux of any long term conflict? on her end its you, on your end, its her. ive dealt with unreasonable people in my life that did or didnt have bpd. sometimes its definitely more them than you! thats just not a winning formula for a marriage or any interpersonal relationship, really.

My family is an example.  It seems like she wants to start issues with all of them, just so she can complain about how bad they all are.

what is her beef with your family...in your words, but also, to the best of your ability, hers?

[Notwendy]

I'm not trying to fix her, but I am hoping she improves.  My hope is that the "Communication tools" can help diffuse things enough so that we can have meaningful, adult discussions about important stuff. 


I think the fact that you still have hope is what keeps you trying. Not to say it's wrong or right to have hope but it's an observation.


I've always been the kind of person whom always thought, "let's listen to what this other person has to say..." and not so quick to dismiss someone as "wrong". 

In the case of W, I married her because I valued her viewpoint, and her views of me. 



I think this is a boundary issue. I agree it's important to listen to what others have to say and not dismiss them- as human beings- but also we have to have some concept of self. It's not about right or wrong, it's what is you and what is not you. Having a boundary means- we hear the information, we process it- decide is this true or is this not true? If it's not true, we don't let that information into the boundary, we don't react to it. Just because someone else says something- that doesn't make it true.

Disordered thinking is real. Deciding to not let that lead our reactions or feelings is not the same as making the other person wrong. But somehow we have to have a boundary for ourselves when it comes to what we accept as valid. This doesn't mean you don't value your wife as a human being or her views but you have to distinguish what is true about you and what isn't for yourself. I think what makes BPD a challenge is that they don't always sound disordered. It varies, which is why you decide what is true about you and what isn't.

I think once removed makes an important point about venting and validation. I think we all need this sometime. But venting and validation on their own don't lead to long term improvement in a relationship. It's like letting off steam, which takes the stress level down a bit, while the behavior patterns continue. Changing one's own behavior isn't easy- and being in survival mode leaves little emotional energy for that. But consider the suggestions so far- what about just not reacting to statements that aren't true? So she says you are uncaring. If that doesn't make sense to you, don't react. Simply say " I'm sorry you feel that way, it must hurt to feel that way" and then let it go.