Parenting conundrum

[formflier]

Hey Yeeter

I should clarify that I'm not arguing with or at you.

My concern is that people that look at a situation and say "there is no answer"...often stop looking and/or go through the motions...  That's not what I want for you.

As I sit here and work through my first cup of coffee...perhaps a bit of a personal story will give perspective.

My ex bro in law (FFw sister is a bit older and "much more BPD" than FFw) had to deal with refusals to come over and or refusals to follow rules for a young teen (my nephew).

He could have enforced the coming over and made the child sit in a therapists office...but decided to let them have more autonomy.

There were also two other younger kids to consider.

My ex bro in law made a decision that he was not going to "fight every move" and so he focused on creating the house/home with the values and rules that he deemed appropriate and then was satisfied with who came over or not.

My oldest nephew stayed away for a while, middle one was fairly consistent and the youngest (the only girl) eventually "saw" her Mom for what she was and moved in permanently with her father...rarely visiting her Mom and only after Mom finally came to counseling with her.

Even today (nephew is 20 or 21 years old) the relationship with his Father is distant and "polite".

Please don't take my assertions that there are answers/solutions to mean that you should "use" every solution out there or "fight every battle".

As you have realized..this is a long...long race, consistency is likely more important than exactly what you do on any one issue.

Best,

FF

[yeeter]

No worries FF, I didnt take your posts as arguing at all.  Simply looking for 'solutions' as you say.

Most of the legal community are advising the route your BIL took.  Live your own life and values and maybe some day they will re-engage of their own free will. 

They advise perhaps in part because they know the legal system is ill equipped to deal with these situations, and perhaps also because they dont like the overwhelming amount of legal resource and energy put in for such nominal gain.  My lawyer challenges me repeatedly about what outcome I want from the court, and what practical value will it provide.  (and if we can get that outcome some other way then that is the preferred path).  But we cant.

To manage my own recovery, again the stages of grief need to be processed.  With 'acceptance' being the final stage before one can move forward with my own life.  Its not giving up, it is accepting the reality for what it is.  And making decisions within the constraints of that reality.

I can continue to reach out.  I can continue to make myself accessible.  I can continue to push for counseling.  I can play the long game and live my values and 'hope'.  There are no guarantees any of this will work.  What I cant do, is control other peoples behavior.  And it turns out neither can the court system.

It is hard to lose a child (two in this case), even if for a fixed time period (going on two years now).  And if you look back at my posts you will see a consistent theme that this was expected all along (I had filed for divorce just before finding this site - and aborted - primarily due to concerns over alienation and never seeing my kids again). 

I really dont have any insights and havent talked to anyone that does.  It doesnt seem healthy for kids to have such high drama environment.  And to lose a parent.  But they have to do what they need to for their own survival.

From what I read, this is a growing issue.  In part because PD's are growing.  And in part because men are more involved with their children than historically, but the legal system hasnt caught up to this (at least in some states) - stay at home moms are the default caregivers.  If coparenting is not possible due to high emotion/conflict, then the legal system defaults to the single parent model to reduce conflict for the kids.

One of my lawyers is considered a top 10 lawyer in my state.  Very highly respected and recommended (and expensive!).  His comment was that, he has never seen a case where there was true full PAS (parental alienation syndrome) that had a positive outcome (per the legal definition of PAS, which is severe).  Hard to imagine.

Believe it or not some of the more practical advice I see on TicTok.  One poster said: 

Love.
Live.

Continue to love your children, and ensure they know that.  Then live your life.  And live a good life including your values.  Sounds like your BIL did this with mixed results - which from what I can tell is the most to hope for - mixed results.

I dont want to come across as a self defeatist.  But I have to manage my own grief and moving forward in life while not closing the door on reuniting with my children (but for now having no/limited contact).

Its not a happy story.  But it wasnt a happy marriage either.  And I held on for another 9 years avoiding the alienation so maybe that was worth something to my kids.

[formflier]

Hey...are we really talking about 2 behaviors here that you want to court to control?

1. The can't be in line of sight thing.

2.  Will the child come over.


Anything else?

Remind me again ages of those involved?

Best,

FF

[yeeter]

Hey...are we really talking about 2 behaviors here that you want to court to control?

1. The can't be in line of sight thing.

2.  Will the child come over.


Anything else?

Remind me again ages of those involved?

Best,

FF

D12, D14, S16.  My son does follow the parenting plan and occasionally spends some addition time with me (but gets a lot of rage from mom when he does).

I dont care about the line of sight thing other than it is a weapon to prevent me from being anywhere she is (including any child event).  So the girls send me a text before most events telling me not to come.  Sure a court could order we share events (assuming we get to court some day) - but if I do go my guess is the kids will choose not to participate if they know I will show up (that is what they hinted at last year) - after all, at a minimum if I go it means mom can not, and/or would come with a lot of drama (am sure she would melt down and call the squad car to be hauled to the ER due to reaction).  The question I have to answer once Covid opens up is, whether I want to push that and cause that embarrassment and drama for the kids - which will give them additional reasons to hate me.

Will the child come over.  Sure that would be great.  Interact via email or text or phone even would be great.  All email/text monitored is my guess, other parents and family have been warned by her that any text or email interactions with me could end up in court, so be very careful when engaging with me.

The concept of a court 'controlling' a behavior is misguided from what my lawyers infer.  How will a court 'control' anyone?

[formflier]

The line of sight thing..to me..seems where you should focus.

If your children are not going to spend time with you...they don't get a say in what you do and where you go.

If you show up at their events...over to them (anyone really) to manage their emotions.

If they choose to stop doing events and become hermits..that's their choice..not yours.

Your legal stance is that you are deeply concerned about their Mom's health and are available anytime for her medical appointments while they figure this out.


Courts have a wide variety of things to control peoples behavior...they generally do the minimum needed...but if it comes to it they will collect a person and put them in jail for contempt.  I hope you will agree that tends to control a persons choices.

Let's hope it doesn't come to such extreme measures.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

yeeter, your situation reminds me more of what my husband experienced with his BPDx wife than my n/BPDx husband.

Court would not have been able to compel H's kids to see him and using court as a stick would've created a nightmare of conflict for the kids.

Whereas in my situation, the stick/court approach was effective.

When H and I first met and realized we both had BPD siblings, and both had married BPD spouses, I was concerned that he didn't use the courts to help heal his relationship with the two most alienated kids. But looking back, what worked for me would've been a disaster for him and his kids.

Have you spent any time looking at materials on Ryan Thomas's site?

He may have some creative ideas that could be adapted to your situation.

[kells76]

Court would not have been able to compel H's kids to see him and using court as a stick would've created a nightmare of conflict for the kids.

Same for us. DH's ex is uBPD and her husband is uNPD. It's unrelentingly toxic and conflictual. The kids have to "not have a good time" sometimes in order for Mom and Stepdad to accept them/be there for them. Sick.

Ryan Thomas is a good idea, and while I'm sure I've mentioned him before, getting some kind of meeting with Dr Craig Childress also sounds like it could be worth it. Or do both. See if they'll talk to each other and to your current L and counselor.

The level of drama and the impossible situation your kids are in make me think that unorthodox, and perhaps "go for broke" steps are necessary in your case. Versus "Boilerplate A, B, C, D, E, and court, and it's solved". And interestingly, the total weirdness of your kids' mom's reaction makes me actually have some hope for your. It's just so, so, so weird and untethered to reality, that if you can get an out-of-the-box approach to it (maybe via Thomas or Childress) then you might have a roundabout way to change things and shed light on what's up.

If the timing is right, I think formflier's jiu-jitsu suggestion of "I just want my kids' mom to have the best medical care... I'm ready to be there with her team if they need me for a diagnosis... I just want her to be healthy and well" is a good one, and exactly the "use their energy against them" idea that could work. Again, if the timing/context is right.

Ultimately, though, when the other parent doesn't see themselves as under the same rules... or even in the same reality as you or the court system... and I mean that in 100% seriousness... then how do you even get a foothold. There's no cooperation or "just try to work together".

I was flipping through some old Dr Childress articles yesterday, and he had a section on quotations from professionals in the field of narcissism. One that stood out to me was something like "narcissists don't see the usual rules as applying to them, even up to and including rules of science and nature".
When you're up against someone who literally might not think that morality, the legal system, and the force of gravity apply to them... what can you do? Hard stuff.

[yeeter]

Thanks all, for some insightful ideas.  I have not spent much time on Ryan Thomas site but will look deeper.  I have consulted with Amy Baker - who was very helpful.

Generally speaking, direct confrontation doesnt work and only escalates higher to a place I am not willing to go to (past arguments have resulted in her using the kids, even physically putting them in between us, to win an argument).  The need to be right and validate her own position trumps everything else beyond reason.

But at the same time, avoidance generally doesnt work either.  smh.  I have found nothing that is effective after 19 years and over a dozen counselors...

This applies:

when the other parent doesn't see themselves as under the same rules... or even in the same reality as you or the court system... and I mean that in 100% seriousness... then how do you even get a foothold. There's no cooperation or "just try to work together".

 "narcissists don't see the usual rules as applying to them, even up to and including rules of science and nature".
When you're up against someone who literally might not think that morality, the legal system, and the force of gravity apply to them... what can you do? Hard stuff.

Her brother (whom I have a good relationship with), has shared that in her mind she doesnt believe she is doing anything 'wrong'.  She genuinely believes her narrative/reality, right down to having a genetic disorder that triggers anaphylaxis shock at the sight of me.  And she is doing what a mother should do, protecting her children against a dangerous person (me). 

One of the marriage counselors flagged this at one time:  'The two of you live in different worlds.  You can experience the exact same event and come away describing it as two very different experiences with no shared interpretation of what happened'. 

Coupling narcissistic traits with the emotional runaway of borderline and you have the NPD/BPD combination that is so difficult to interact with.  At the end of the day, most of the advice in the literature is to just minimize interaction and get as far away as possible - which is happening.  Without my children.  As I told one counselor:  I always knew the price I would have to pay to get away from her.  Had hoped I was wrong, but was not.

I will maintain a 'drip' with my kids of:  Persistence.  Communication.  Love.     While looking for other ways/opportunities to add to it.

[formflier]

  The need to be right and validate her own position trumps everything else beyond reason.

Which is why you need to find areas where you can agree with her on her view of the world...the direct line of sight thing.

Note:  Don't agree with her "solutions"..just her view. 

Splash it up on billboards...in court filings...show max empathy...show max urgency.  I mean..can you imagine how horrible it must be to not be able to look at another human being...especially one you need to co parent with.

"Judge...as you can imagine, there will likely be joint meetings that we both need to attend for the benefit of our kids.  It's so important that there is court oversight on the medical testing and treatment of this disorder."

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I will maintain a 'drip' with my kids of:  Persistence.  Communication.  Love.     While looking for other ways/opportunities to add to it.

Add "presence" to this.

Otherwise...I think you are validating the invalid..by staying away from their events.

Best,

FF

[yeeter]

Otherwise...I think you are validating the invalid..by staying away from their events.

True.

[livednlearned]

yeeter, I know what you're dealing with is much more pervasive than what I'm trying to wrap my head around, but I can't help wonder why, if her *health* is so fragile, does she go to all of the kids' events?

Why not take turns?

[kells76]

I dont care about the line of sight thing other than it is a weapon to prevent me from being anywhere she is (including any child event).  So the girls send me a text before most events telling me not to come.  Sure a court could order we share events (assuming we get to court some day) - but if I do go my guess is the kids will choose not to participate if they know I will show up (that is what they hinted at last year) - after all, at a minimum if I go it means mom can not, and/or would come with a lot of drama (am sure she would melt down and call the squad car to be hauled to the ER due to reaction).  The question I have to answer once Covid opens up is, whether I want to push that and cause that embarrassment and drama for the kids - which will give them additional reasons to hate me.

Digging into this a bit -- when the kids text you before the event, do they say "Don't come because I don't want you to" or "Don't come because Mom is coming"? IDK if it's splitting hairs, but I'd be curious how they phrase it.

If Mom is court ordered (hypothetically) to not go to events on odd numbered days, do you think the kids would still text you before an odd # day event and say "don't come"?

Why not take turns?

I'm guessing it's something like -- either Mom would not tell the kids "hey, there's a new order, and it means I go on odd # days and dad goes on even # days, that's how it is" and so they wouldn't know there's actually a plan in place, and would think you're just showing up even though "you know" what that means...

or...

Mom would tell the kids "there's a new order that Dad forced the judge to write that makes me miss half your events, but it's OK, you can tell me what you really want, and I'll be there for you".

Or, do you have a sense that there'd be a different dynamic at play -- some different way where, even if it were legally required that you take turns, Mom would undermine it?

...

Like LnL, I'm trying to keep wrapping my head around this. And, like FF, something about the over the top-ness of her reaction seems like a key to moving things in a different direction.

...

I'm also wondering if a "parallel tracks" approach to your two issues could help. I think we all know that legal stuff/court is not the right tool for opening your kids' hearts to you. But it's not useless.

What if in terms of "getting the kids to come over" (i.e., formflier's 2nd listed behavior) and having a positive relationship with them, all that work were done via Ryan Thomas/Craig Childress/non-legal means? That'd be one track -- could be totally different strategies, could be absolutely nothing legal going on in that track. Just new relational/strategic tools & skills. I know Ryan Thomas often mentions on his site using very, very specific phrases when talking to an alienated child.

And then, what if in terms of "line of sight" weirdness (i.e., formflier's 1st listed behavior), all that work were done with your L and legal/medical professionals? But at a pace that didn't upset the apple cart of what you're working on in the other track.

So, you wouldn't have the pressure of "I have to use the legal system to make my kids come over during my parenting time". Because that blows up, in cases like ours. Separate it out. Do a non-legal strategy for seeing/communicating with the kids, and then use your legal/professional team to focus really closely on how to use your kids' mom's reaction to change things for the better.

Hope that helps;

kells76

[yeeter]

yeeter, I know what you're dealing with is much more pervasive than what I'm trying to wrap my head around, but I can't help wonder why, if her *health* is so fragile, does she go to all of the kids' events?

Why not take turns?

Her health is not fragile per se (she plays hockey still), just that certain things trigger a reaction.  Bleach as an example and some other chemical smells.  She lets organizations know (school, church, etc) that some cleaning chemicals can cause a trigger and they often adjust what they clean with to accommodate her. 

It is a real physical reaction that happens and I have had to hit her with the
Epi and take her to the ER once from church after she swelled up.  So there is an effect.

And now apparently the site of me is also triggering.

My middle D14 once told me 'she just uses that to get her way...'  So the kids are pretty in tune, but at the same time have no ability to challenge her narrative without major fallout.

[yeeter]

I did have a pretty productive conversation with my lawyer yesterday regarding events.  One aspect pointed out that me attending an event is different than a kid refusing to come during parenting time.  They can refuse parenting time.  But me attending a public event is not their choice, and it is perfectly reasonable to expect a parent to attend their own childs event.  Even if the child doesnt like it.

Then ditto on what was said about validating irrational behavior by staying away.

We also made some progress towards getting family counseling in place.  Still need to confirm availability of a counselor (the hardest part), but it is likely to happen at some point.  (20 months into this, so it is a long term process)

Parallel paths for sure, there are multiple avenues (her family, kids friends parents and activities together with them, school/teachers, counseling, courts, doctors indirectly, etc).  All have some level of activity to stay available and engaged.  From interactions to date, people in general are quite sympathetic to the cause... nobody likes to see a child lose a parent. 

At the high level it is just this type of drama that she wants.  It provides a source of a lot of attention (even if bad... attention is attention).  So all that just comes with the territory - I will maintain what I can while still having some semblance of a life (also important).  Its no more work than it was remaining in the marriage - but I do miss my children.

[kells76]

One more clarifying question, as I try to make sense of this:

So, your son does still spend time with you -- how does he get to and from your place?

[yeeter]

So, your son does still spend time with you -- how does he get to and from your place?

Mostly I do the drop offs and pickups.  A handful of times mom has.  And starting this year I moved close to school so he can now walk. 

Also some of his friends drive and take him

[kells76]

Mostly I do the drop offs and pickups.  A handful of times mom has.

When you do the drop offs/pickups, I'm assuming that Mom stays away from the windows...?

Was there overlap with Mom doing transportation for S16, and Mom having big reactions to seeing you at events?

Again, sometimes I'm a very "tree" instead of "forest" person, so not sure there's anything to figure out here. But if she is capable of dropping S16 off at your house... where you are... and where she might see you...?

[formflier]

Lots of tentacles in these stories.  My head was going down one path...and now understanding that the pwBPD can drop off a son at your house and risk spontaneous combustion at the sight of Yeeter...

I think it's important that we all are deliberate about "staying curious"


Could it be something about the gender of the children? (again..trying to get in the mind of a pwBPD here) A male child is ok to spend time with Daddy but not a female?

OK..more clarifying questions.

Can you describe the relationship with both of your daughters?  Is one daughter more like your ex?  Is one less like?

For instance D15 in FF house has the most FFw in her of any of my kids so far.  It scares me and try as a might...I'm sure my feelings towards FFw...towards BPDish behavior...come across to D15 in ways that ARE NOT helpful.

Note:  None of this changes my recommendation to "legally" focus big-time on pwBPDs "good health".

Yeeter..I'm not suggesting you are hiding anything...I am suggesting there are other things here which we need to be aware of...and might be critical pieces.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

From 2011 nearly 10 years ago:

Married:  10 years
Children/ages:  S7, D5, D3

I believe that as an ex, my wife would be insanely difficult to deal with, would brainwash my kids against me as a bad/evil person, and would make life difficult at every opportunity she had (which would be a lot, and would involve a lot of legal time).

From this I have a conclusion:  Your then-spouse was not initially "allergic" to you... or else it would be hard to believe you two had three children during the first 7 years of marriage, right?

When did she begin claiming she was "allergic" to even the mere sight of you?

I don't doubt that she has had allergic reactions in the past, such as to chlorine, I know people who can't even be near chlorinated pools.  However, her claiming to be allergic to the sight of you feels more like posturing, expanding her chemical reactions to include her emotional reactions.  Conceivably she could claim PTSD, despite being married to you without such claims for at least the first 10 years with you.

All I'm saying is that your approach can be similar to what the others here have recommended, splitting the events between parents until she is able to get therapy for her "reactions" to sight or other contact with you... but be ready to include your many years (history) when she had intimate marital contact, produced children and never claimed overreactions in that way.

Experience of many here, including myself, is where our ex-spouses do have extreme reactions to us.  A better phrase would be "triggers".  For me it was exchanges even at the local sheriff's office, phone calls, etc.  I think your ex just took it one step further, posturing seeing you as yet another cause of allergic reactions.  (My ex could work herself into a frenzy.  How do you demonstrate that your ex has that capability and desire too?)

[yeeter]

Could it be something about the gender of the children? (again..trying to get in the mind of a pwBPD here) A male child is ok to spend time with Daddy but not a female?

I think this is a piece of it.  Without wanting to disrespect the entire female population, my wife has a chip on her shoulder about men in general.  She was a youngest child with a gap between her and her older brothers.  Girls in her family were rare, and considered 'special'.  Combined with programs to promote girls in the school, work, etc, and a desire to 'take them down' regarding men in general.  I have always felt this although when things were good between us I was not the target, but the undertones come through and for sure my son feels them as well.

Plus, as I mentioned in a previous post - I had an affair and was discovered and a piece of this is making an example of how you let people treat you.  Which would be a specfic lesson to the girls.  And her pressing for disclosure of items to bring into court so it is a matter of public record so she can show my daughter the type of person their father really is (her words).

Can you describe the relationship with both of your daughters?  Is one daughter more like your ex?  Is one less like?

My oldest daughter has my genetics.  And for a long time, my personality to go with it.  I changed my work schedule and refused job offers to be home early every day and not travel so I can spend time with the kids.  When younger I would take a day a month with each of them to do something just the two of us.  We did soccer, basketball, built stuff in the shop, other activities together.  Over time my wife grabbed onto her hard and I would describe it as unhealthy enmeshment at this stage.  Given the amount of attention my wife gives the oldest, I picked up the youngest.  We did almost everything together (even more activities than older D) and were very close.  I tried to deliberately add back some 1:1 with the older but her schedule became so packed she just wanted some down time when a window of time presented it. 

Ironically, the one the most neglected previous was my son.  So he hid out in his room by himself and became depressed.  Now that we are split, he has come out of his shell dramatically and doing things with friends and is going a very good direction.  We have talked about the home dynamics a little, but not much.

They are all very smart, insightful kids. 

Yeeter..I'm not suggesting you are hiding anything...I am suggesting there are other things here which we need to be aware of...and might be critical pieces.

Its all good, I dont try to hide anything.  But the history and dynamics are not simple.  This has been going on since before we were married ironically, and I have spent a LOT of time and energy on the relationship.  12-13 different counselors over the years, some more insightful than others.  One of which pointed me to this site.  Ironically she has mellowed some over the years (kids will do that), so things had 'improved' as long as I kept some emotional distance and avoided upsetting her. 

[yeeter]

From this I have a conclusion:  Your then-spouse was not initially "allergic" to you... or else it would be hard to believe you two had three children during the first 7 years of marriage, right?

When did she begin claiming she was "allergic" to even the mere sight of you?

Correct FD.  The reactions started during the divorce process when I was still living in the house before we had a stipulation so I wouldnt move out.  She went through the house (with kids help) to pile all my stuff in a pile in the living room.  Her family come for xmas and I couldnt join so spent xmas eve in my room while they all celebrated.  A few times I ate beans out of can with a screwdriver while hanging out in the shop to avoid the drama.  It was crazy making at its finest, and was rubbing off where at one point my youngest daughter started complaining of a 'tummy ache' when I walked into a room.  They were being told I was intentionally trying to kill their mother, by not moving out.  Eventually I moved out (with a stipulation), which is the only legal agreement we have to this day some 20 months later.

It is an emotional trigger, not just chemical/physical trigger.  Other things that upset her can cause the trigger and in fact this very dynamic had made the home life more tenable - because she would get wound up over something and feel the physical effects starting and would have to go to her room to calm down to avoid it.  So this became the most effective form of self regulation for her.

The simplest way I can describe it is that all her life she is used to getting her way by throwing tantrums.  And has learned that if you take it to an extreme enough place, the other side will cave.  Have witnessed this many times over the years.  So the entire charade is a form of a tantrum (the analogy of never developing emotion regulation skill past the age of 13 rings true).

But so what.  Drama is drama and she will take it to such extreme that it DOES impact the kids and everyone around her.  So I just have to balance when/how to engage in a way that is worth it (pick my battles), and not waver - knowing that she will take it completely over the cliff to get her way.  She is willing to go placed nobody else is (like using my children as weapons).

From a practical perspective, there is no such thing as moral 'victories' or calling out her true intent.  Its pretty obvious she has issues - so the focus is on what actions and behaviors can be done to help get my kids raised into healthy capable adults while at the same time keeping myself sane (and even my own healthy lifestyle at some point)

[livednlearned]

It's kind of a warped version of suicidal ideation.

SD24 would say things like, "I don't want to live" and "no one cares if I'm alive" and other statements that she could deny were suicidal while still getting attention.

That behavior stopped, presumably because SD26 and H got on the same page and agreed the response to SI was, "this is really serious and requires psychiatrist and psychologist having a plan of action with testing and treatment, we are here to help, when is your next appointment, I can be there with you, etc."

SD24 knows how to go right up to the limit of what others will tolerate.

Only when they insisted on shining light on the issue did she back away.

Your ex may want the medical attention, which is even better.

Without that sunlight on the issue, she has your family in a headlock 

[yeeter]

That behavior stopped, presumably because SD26 and H got on the same page and agreed the response to SI was, "this is really serious and requires psychiatrist and psychologist having a plan of action with testing and treatment, we are here to help, when is your next appointment, I can be there with you, etc."

SD24 knows how to go right up to the limit of what others will tolerate.

Only when they insisted on shining light on the issue did she back away.

Your ex may want the medical attention, which is even better.

I am not her parent so have fairly limited influence.  Yes I can push for court appointed counseling (which has been historically ineffective with her, since after all she doesnt have any problems is her view).  I have never seen the limit reached to the point she will back down.  Son told me that he won an argument with her once.  They just kept arguing until she had a reaction and needed to disengage and go to her room and recover.  Said he didnt even know what they were arguing about by the end, he just wanted to see if it was possible to win an argument with her.  Said it took 5 hours.  (teenagers!)   I have never been able to win an argument because she drags the kids into the middle of it on purpose and I refuse to engage at that point.  So she knows my limits and just goes there quickly as needed.  To the degree anyone else can influence her, I havent seen it (not counselors not family not even her mother).  (the reaction thing is only in recent years, early years that wasnt a problem so there was less emotional regulation).  As the BIL told me - had I went through with the divorce in 2011 it would have been worse because she would have had more energy.

What she wants is to be a victim.  And for others to feel 'outrage' on her behalf at how wronged she was (attention).  And then to punish/hurt me (vengeance).  Probably also wants to discredit me to where nobody will believe anything I say since this will go against her narrative (to be 'right').  She wants to avoid taking any form of responsibility that the marriage didnt work (false innocence to feed the victim-ness).
 And doesnt want to share in raising kids, wants them all to herself (selfishness).  And of course wants to be supported financially as much as possible.

At least those are a few of the things I think she wants.  A number of pretty classic traits.

This thread has been more helpful than I expected.  There arent any magic bullets.  But a really key phrase:  Dont validate the invalid.

[formflier]

  Said he didnt even know what they were arguing about by the end, he just wanted to see if it was possible to win an argument with her.  Said it took 5 hours.  (teenagers!)   I have never been able to win an argument because she drags the kids into the middle of it on purpose and I refuse to engage at that point.  

This is critical information. 

There is a difference in solving a problem and winning an argument.  Yeeter you seem like a reasonable fellow.  Most likely you normally try to problem solve and from time to time...you get stuck in a "i'm going to win at all costs" thing.

Now..consider your ex.  It would appear to me that she almost always "wins" and every so often can solve a problem.

So...my challenge to you (and it may be a fools errand)...is to focus on times where something to solved...and see if there is a way to build on that. (and there may not be)


Switching gears:  You have wisely choose to stop engaging when she drags kids in, yet there is tension there...right?  "Oh...I want to win and this is what I have to do to win..works everytime."

You don't want to validate that thinking.  That's why I think you engage hard on the line of sight thing...go full bore...

Hang in there man...this is a tough nut to crack.

Best,

FF

[yeeter]

So...my challenge to you (and it may be a fools errand)...is to focus on times where something to solved...and see if there is a way to build on that. (and there may not be)

This is good advice.  But to clarify - for me it is rarely about 'winning' - that behavior went out the window years ago.  But to my wife, it IS about winning.  And being 'right'

A saying from one of the marriage counselors:  Do you want to be right, or do you want to be in a relationship?  (implying you can not have both)

She cant let go if she believes she is 'right' (which is most times).  Then layer on a fairly distorted view, and black/white thinking, and you arent going to get anywhere and no use in the argument.  So there is no path to resolve anything (including getting my own needs met).  Hence an unworkable relationship (and an amicable divorce not possible, etc).

But having said that, focusing on problem solving is definitely great advice (she doesnt necessarily share the same set of 'problems' though).  100% conflict avoidance is not possible either.  I just have to make a decision on what balance...  And 'the only way around, is through'

I will say my skills in managing it have deteriorated in recent years.  Either that or I quit trying so hard to appease.  Or I just wore out.  Or my own emotional strength has eroded.  Or some combination thereof...

[formflier]

I'm essentially trying to get you to look at the global issue from a different perspective.

What is possible...

Instead of...how do I change all this "impossible" stuff.

Who knows what you may discover..but it's important to leave no stone unturned.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

There is a difference in solving a problem and winning an argument

And solving a problem in BPD land is a bit different than normal problem-solving.

The key difference is that most of us are simply proposing a reasonable solution. That's the tactic. Full stop.

Reasonable people want to solve their problems.

Your ex is saying, "Nope. Only one way to solve this problem." That's not reasonable.

Her solution torpedoes the sacred relationship between parent and child, so it's not a viable solution.

The purpose of your proposal is to shine light on her inability to deviate from the only solution she's willing to tolerate.

For example. I knew my ex would never complete anger management classes, or get treatment for substance abuse, or get a proper psych eval. But we proposed it anyway (it was a reasonable solution given what had transpired). Ex was demanding more time and our proposal was a way to shine light on the real problem, which is that ex wanted everything to stay exactly the way it was, which wasn't tenable.

It shifted the focus from "LnL is doing (controlling thing)" to "n/BPDx will be accountable for_______"

It's hard to suggest solutions to people in our situations because only we know what we're up for, what makes sense, whether the context can support it, the variables in our legal situations, how much money is available, etc.

But if/when you choose to discuss this with your lawyer, it will take some advocacy on your part to explain that the point isn't whether you can enforce the solution, or whether she follows through. The point is to shine light on her unwillingness to get proper medical attention for her problem or, while that is pending, take turns at kid events so you can see them.

An instinctive judge might even say "no events for mom" until the kids are spending equal time with dad.

[yeeter]

Thanks everyone for chiming in.  This has been a useful thread for me

It's hard to suggest solutions to people in our situations because only we know what we're up for, what makes sense, whether the context can support it, the variables in our legal situations, how much money is available, etc.

Yes.  And as my own T said to me:  You know better than anyone what might/might not help.  You have researched, learned, developed skill, and put tremendous energy into managing the relationship all along.  Trust your own thoughts as valid - even more than the experts, because they dont know as much of the detail that you do. 

Or something like that.

Another piece that was quite disappointing though, is, that 'there is no help'.  To this day the lawyers and counselors and legal system has been completely ineffective and unable to do anything.  Yes some day we might get to court - but that will have been 24 months later... So to a very large degree solutions that involve the legal system are of limited practical value.  At least for now.  And 24 months is a long time to 'normalize' the new normal. 

So as FF suggests - focus on what is possible.  Not trying to solve the impossible.  Which leaves me on an island to figure it out on my own.  Whatever those actions might be (I am not saying I do not have support, I am just saying there is very limited practical help outside of what I can do myself).  Its on me to do whatever it is I can do - independent of the rest of the system/environment/dynamics.  And up to my kids to make their own choices (understanding that at least for a fair period of time, they really do not have the freedom to do so without going through a lot of drama for it)

A lot of the advice from case studies, best practices, what is good for children, etc caused me a great deal of confusion because the actual system behaved counter to these recommendations.  'Advice' and 'solutions' for whatever reason did not apply to my case (again, I have more than one highly rated lawyer - including a conciliation judge, tell me the same things).  Getting a judge to order something implies we actually get in front a judge.  In the limit, the courts default to the SAHM being the highest priority relationship to maintain with kids.  And things do get pushed to the limit - and then some.  (or at a minimum 'benefit of doubt' is given until the professionals sort out which side is more sane - starting out with the assumption there is craziness both ways.  It takes a long time for them to sort through this).

Dont validate the invalid

Focus on what is possible, not solving the impossible

Love.  Live.  Persistence.  Communication.  Availability.

These are things that ARE possible.