Having the divorce conversation (or attempting to)

[Bobby Newport]

I have made up my mind to seek divorce.  I have had two meetings with a highly qualified (and very expensive) attorney.  Based on those discussions, I have tried to have a "kitchen table" divorce discussion.  Laugh all you want and I was sure this was a pipe dream.  The "discussions" have gone in a endless circle with nothing being accomplished. I know that this is a tactic to run out the clock until I become exhausted or our time out of earshot of the children is over.

Basically, I have two ideas for a next step but not sure how to proceed. 

One option is basically put it on paper and put it in front of her. Obviously my gut tells me that this will trigger her and she will go into a fit of rage. I have an attorney friend who has helped me draft an agreement (to try and save a $5k retainer).

The only other option is to somehow make it her idea.  I have tried this in arguments before where she brings up divorce. I have told her to tell me what she wants and she can have it.  This has proved ineffective however.


I am looking for advice based on others experience with having the conversation.  I have read Splitting but this mostly deals with the divorce process.  There isn't a lot of resources on having the discussion and how to have the discussion.  Thanks in advance

[PearlsBefore]

I would definitely advise the first option over the second. The second risks that she decides the easiest way is to make false allegations against you, or to disappear with your car, kids and wallet in the night, etc.

The first, you risk a bad reaction from her but on a timing of your choosing - and that you can be recording the entire time so if she does pick up a knife or something then it will help you convince the Court a little more quickly and cheaply than having to bring in expert witnesses or ask them to trust your credibility.

[mart555]

Have you read the book "Splitting" by Bill Eddy?  Highly recommended.

The rule of thumb is to cover your ass (record audio if legal, with your phone in your pocket or whatever, and make backups of whatever you might need).  Even if she remains calm, cover your ass because things can change really fast and it my case it took a week (suicide threats, and then it got really bad over the next two or three months, death threats, assaults, ..).  I played it nice from the start but as the BPD's realize that you really want out that's when they dysregulate. 

Count yourself "lucky" that you know about BPD before telling her you want out.  I learned about it after... and it was quite a learning experience. 

[livednlearned]

It seems like the papers are almost a formality at this point ... ?

You had an episode where you tried to get her to leave, then you offered to leave and proposed that the two of you would take turns leaving the home (presumably for the sake of the 16 year old?), and she cycled through a few attempts to change your mind, ultimately landing on "good behavior" before (I assume) she regressed back to default.

So it's likely she knows the papers are coming?

Is this more about how to handle her stonewalling and obstruction more than how to deliver her the papers?

There's a good chance she wasn't serious about getting a divorce but the nature of having BPD means, well, you know what it means. 

I have two ideas for a next step but not sure how to proceed

BPD can cause behaviors that are challenging, but for the most part the ones that get hairy when divorce is in play include: domestic violence, false allegations, self-harm, suicidal ideation, parental alienation, substance abuse, draining bank accounts/over spending, infidelity, smear campaigns. The most common one that comes up here seems to be stonewalling and obstruction.
 
What type of response/s do you anticipate from your wife?

I would start with that knowledge and then plan the discussion around what you anticipate.

The discussion is the catalyst for the other things you anticipate will happen next. Look for all the junctures where you need her participation and then assume she will stonewall. Then have a plan for handling that.

You have expert knowledge on how she behaves in general, so then it's about having the next 5 or 10 steps in place for when she gets there. It helps to know what she cares about and then look at that as leverage to motivate her to comply.

Being 5 or 10 steps ahead is key to reigning in the worst of a high-conflict divorce. Some things cannot be avoided so the best we can do is make things less awful.

Maybe we can help you think through what is most likely to happen and how to set things up so that her responses are just part of what's expected. Chances are, you have some kind of leverage, or can create some kind of leverage, so that she is presented with choices each step of the way, rather than always choosing "no, nope, never."

[ForeverDad]

"to try and save a $5k retainer" ... A $5K retainer is more than reasonable for our cases and only a start.  I'll share my story a dozen years ago when I was pondering switching lawyers.  I interviewed one, he told me his retainer was $7K and he's use most of it to review my case up to that point.  I didn't even need a calculator that he was telling me he needed 3 full days, at his quoted rates, to "review" my case.  I didn't see him as improving things in my case so I stayed with my experienced lawyer.

Overview:  One child is an adult and the other is nearly there, so custody and parenting schedule issues would be moot within a year or two.  (Divorces involving custody and acting-out PDs generally take a year, or even two.)  Overall, your divorce will hinge upon division of marital assets, marital debts and perhaps some amount of spousal support or alimony.  Good that your spouse is working, that will make things simpler.

No one here is likely to recommend long term 'nesting' where the child stays and the parents take turns dropping in.  Besides being financially impractical to support three homes, you'd also have a risk of facing an ex who could refuse to leave when it's your time to start your visit.

Even with custody issues about to end when your son "ages out of the system" at 18 years old, divorce will still have to deal with your spouse's emotion-triggered obstruction and sabotaging.  While we can't know beforehand the extent of your spouse's reactions, you need an experienced and proactive attorney on your side.  If you try to wing it alone, you may not be adequately prepared to defend yourself.

[MeandThee29]

However you approach it, be prepared for a wild ride. As much as I hoped that it would go reasonably smoothly and carefully picked the right attorney, it kept spinning out of control. Thankfully he picked a very strong lawyer who held the line and wanted to get it settled. If he had picked a "let's just keep fighting" attorney, it would still be going on.

I had no custody issues, no real estate, and no business issues. He viewed closeout as an opportunity to fight yet more and run up yet more legal bills. The whole thing took over two years. No way could I afford what I paid, but I having the right attorney made all the difference.

There is only so much you can control. At times, there is no way to convince them to be reasonable.