At a loss

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm not even sure where to begin...  There are layers upon layers upon layers of nuance to this that will be extremely difficult for me to relay.

I was married to a woman for 17 years and we had three children together.  I ended the marriage 3 years ago.

The divorce process was excruciating and it's been excruciating since then.  We initially reached a reasonable settlement/parenting agreement, but since then I relocated to another city and it's been a constant struggle.  The existing parenting plan doesn't work due to the relocation, and it would seem that my ex has weaponized my access to the children.  Pre-pandemic she took the position that she has the sole authority to dictate under what conditions I may see the children, and where.  This amounted to me seeing them approximately 1x per month, after spending 50% time with them, this was very, very difficult for me.  I was exploring/pursuing legal remedies when the pandemic happened.  I have a rare condition that leaves me in an immunocompromised state, this placed me into an "at-risk" category for COVID i.e. you should treat me like you would your 95yo grandmother.  My physicians recommended a 10-14 day isolation period for visitors before coming into close contact with me.  My ex refused to take some basic COVID precautions and outright refused to isolate the children, thereby making it impossible for me to see them.  She further entered them in full-time, in-person schooling, despite remote schooling being an option and despite my objections.  I begged and pleaded for her to find a way to isolate the kids so I could see them, to  no avail.  I did not see my children in person from March 20 until December 20, after we began the mediation process.  During this period the courts were closed and I had no legal recourse.  This was an extremely difficult time for me and my kids, and I was completely powerless to do anything about it.  Thank god for technology as I was still able to video chat with them several times a week.

Since our divorce, my ex has diligently cultivated what I call her "martyr mommy" persona - where her identity revolves around  being aggrieved/wronged (by me) and how she's sacrificing everything to raise our children.  She justifies nearly every single action/decision as "being in the best interest of the kids," including keeping my children away from me.  She has always been very focused on identifying situations where she has been wronged, and then uses that injury as leverage to get something later on.  I.e. I think we should get a new car because you bought something last week and the week before that you made me feel bad when you went to work on our anniversary, and you were mean that one time when etc...  This is very effective and I constantly felt remorse for hurting her and that it was my job to fix it.  In her mind, she keeps very detailed notes of such injuries and they all come out when she wants something, never mind that they are often non-sequitur to the matter at hand.   During and after our divorce my ex went full scorched earth, reaching out to my circle of friends and explaining to them how I'm the most horrible person in existence and she's a victim / hero.  This was devastatingly effective, and I have lost several lifetime friendships and have effectively no relationship with my prior circle of friends.  She is very effective at extracting sympathy and is very convincing, even if the argument/position is not logically sound.

We finally entered a court ordered mediation process and I was optimistic that I could finally see my children and come to some sort of a long term, sustainable agreement.  I began working with a therapist who has experience with NPD and BPD, who helped me while I was negotiating.  He immediately picked up on her traits as likely being BPD and thus far, what he's said has played out as he predicted (more or less).  He suggested I read "stop walking on eggshells" which is how I ended up here.  *She has not been evaluated (to my knowledge) for any personality disorder, so this is pure speculation on my part.  My therapist and lawyer felt confident that my mediator would be able to cut through this behavior and find some bedrock for a logic based negotiation.  I was sorely disappointed. 

My mediation cycle goes like this:
1. Ex makes a demand
2. If I disagree, I push back
3. Ex becomes very agitated, launches into the grievance list.  We get a 3-4 minute passionate dialogue how she's 100% focused on the kids, her demand is "in their best interest" and I am a philandering monster who has abandoned his children as is demonstrated by the fact I've only seen them a fraction of the time in the past year.  (she leaves out the bit where she engineered this situation).  None of these points have anything to do with the matter we are discussing.
4. Mediator asks no questions, doesn't question hopelessly broken logic and suggests to me that I consider being more flexible. 

In the rare circumstance my ex makes any concessions, she will typically renege within a few days/weeks.  For some reason this is never challenged by the mediator.  If I push back we enter step #2 in the process above.  I've tried different strategies, initially (and at the advice of counsel) didn't defend myself against these tirades, the mediator interpreted this as an admission, when I challenge them, she interprets this as me being defensive.  After all that ,we came to an agreement a few months ago.  However, my court-appointed mediator made clerical errors and never got the mutually signed order filed.  She realized this last week and distributed a new copy to sign.  My ex declared that she was no longer willing to comply with one of her fundamental obligations of our agreement.  The mediator had no issue with this whatsoever, enter step #2 above.  At which point my ex started playing brinksmanship threatening to exit negotiations and go to court instead.  I thought about the issue and drafted a compromise where she gets what she wants for a minor adjustment to my rights to give me more flexibility.  My suggestion was summarily denied, and then the mediator went on to draft language that was more restrictive than the original  (signed agreement) on her own, and without the urging of my ex.  She also called out another clause, proactively, and further drafted that to be more restrictive for me. 

I am dumbfounded.  I'm convinced that I'm missing something critical here because I don't understand how this is happening, i'm 50/50 that I'm either missing something or have gone crazy. 

I have no idea what to do, additional mediation sessions end with me getting more restrictions and her less.  Because my ex is so proficient at this, I'm extremely concerned that other mediators and/or a judge would come to the same conclusions.  Further, going to court may end up with me having a worse judgement that what I have on the table now, not guaranteed, but possible.  Further still, she has demonstrated throughout the process that she has absolutely no respect for her obligations under our existing agreement, and the fact that she has reneged 3-4x in this process alone indicates to me that she won't likely uphold her end of the agreement in any case.  Which leaves me in the dubious position of trying to seek legal remedies which will be inflammatory, unpredictable and haven't of any help thus far. 

I have no idea how I can possibly prevail, or even get to a good spot / common understanding in conditions where logic doesn't have a seat at the table. 

I realize this is more of a rant than anything else.  Feel free to tell me I'm nuts, over reacting, wrong etc.  I think it would be a relief to understand that I'm at fault here, or am crazy, just about anything would feel better than this fever-dream of a situation.  I have no idea what to do.

-Frustratedperson

[frustratedperson]

I'm not even sure where to begin...  There are layers upon layers upon layers of nuance to this that will be extremely difficult for me to relay.

I was married to a woman for 17 years and we had three children together.  I ended the marriage 3 years ago.

The divorce process was excruciating and it's been excruciating since then.  We initially reached a reasonable settlement/parenting agreement, but since then I relocated to another city and it's been a constant struggle.  The existing parenting plan doesn't work due to the relocation, and it would seem that my ex has weaponized my access to the children.  Pre-pandemic she took the position that she has the sole authority to dictate under what conditions I may see the children, and where.  This amounted to me seeing them approximately 1x per month, after spending 50% time with them, this was very, very difficult for me.  I was exploring/pursuing legal remedies when the pandemic happened.  I have a rare condition that leaves me in an immunocompromised state, this placed me into an "at-risk" category for COVID i.e. you should treat me like you would your 95yo grandmother.  My physicians recommended a 10-14 day isolation period for visitors before coming into close contact with me.  My ex refused to take some basic COVID precautions and outright refused to isolate the children, thereby making it impossible for me to see them.  She further entered them in full-time, in-person schooling, despite remote schooling being an option and despite my objections.  I begged and pleaded for her to find a way to isolate the kids so I could see them, to  no avail.  I did not see my children in person from March 20 until December 20, after we began the mediation process.  During this period the courts were closed and I had no legal recourse.  This was an extremely difficult time for me and my kids, and I was completely powerless to do anything about it.  Thank god for technology as I was still able to video chat with them several times a week.

Since our divorce, my ex has diligently cultivated what I call her "martyr mommy" persona - where her identity revolves around  being aggrieved/wronged (by me) and how she's sacrificing everything to raise our children.  She justifies nearly every single action/decision as "being in the best interest of the kids," including keeping my children away from me.  She has always been very focused on identifying situations where she has been wronged, and then uses that injury as leverage to get something later on.  I.e. I think we should get a new car because you bought something last week and the week before that you made me feel bad when you went to work on our anniversary, and you were mean that one time when etc...  This is very effective and I constantly felt remorse for hurting her and that it was my job to fix it.  In her mind, she keeps very detailed notes of such injuries and they all come out when she wants something, never mind that they are often non-sequitur to the matter at hand.   During and after our divorce my ex went full scorched earth, reaching out to my circle of friends and explaining to them how I'm the most horrible person in existence and she's a victim / hero.  This was devastatingly effective, and I have lost several lifetime friendships and have effectively no relationship with my prior circle of friends.  She is very effective at extracting sympathy and is very convincing, even if the argument/position is not logically sound.

We finally entered a court ordered mediation process and I was optimistic that I could finally see my children and come to some sort of a long term, sustainable agreement.  I began working with a therapist who has experience with NPD and BPD, who helped me while I was negotiating.  He immediately picked up on her traits as likely being BPD and thus far, what he's said has played out as he predicted (more or less).  He suggested I read "stop walking on eggshells" which is how I ended up here.  *She has not been evaluated (to my knowledge) for any personality disorder, so this is pure speculation on my part.  My therapist and lawyer felt confident that my mediator would be able to cut through this behavior and find some bedrock for a logic based negotiation.  I was sorely disappointed. 

My mediation cycle goes like this:
1. Ex makes a demand
2. If I disagree, I push back
3. Ex becomes very agitated, launches into the grievance list.  We get a 3-4 minute passionate dialogue how she's 100% focused on the kids, her demand is "in their best interest" and I am a philandering monster who has abandoned his children as is demonstrated by the fact I've only seen them a fraction of the time in the past year.  (she leaves out the bit where she engineered this situation).  None of these points have anything to do with the matter we are discussing.
4. Mediator asks no questions, doesn't question hopelessly broken logic and suggests to me that I consider being more flexible. 

In the rare circumstance my ex makes any concessions, she will typically renege within a few days/weeks.  For some reason this is never challenged by the mediator.  If I push back we enter step #2 in the process above.  I've tried different strategies, initially (and at the advice of counsel) didn't defend myself against these tirades, the mediator interpreted this as an admission, when I challenge them, she interprets this as me being defensive.  After all that ,we came to an agreement a few months ago.  However, my court-appointed mediator made clerical errors and never got the mutually signed order filed.  She realized this last week and distributed a new copy to sign.  My ex declared that she was no longer willing to comply with one of her fundamental obligations of our agreement.  The mediator had no issue with this whatsoever, enter step #2 above.  At which point my ex started playing brinksmanship threatening to exit negotiations and go to court instead.  I thought about the issue and drafted a compromise where she gets what she wants for a minor adjustment to my rights to give me more flexibility.  My suggestion was summarily denied, and then the mediator went on to draft language that was more restrictive than the original  (signed agreement) on her own, and without the urging of my ex.  She also called out another clause, proactively, and further drafted that to be more restrictive for me. 

I am dumbfounded.  I'm convinced that I'm missing something critical here because I don't understand how this is happening, i'm 50/50 that I'm either missing something or have gone crazy. 

I have no idea what to do, additional mediation sessions end with me getting more restrictions and her less.  Because my ex is so proficient at this, I'm extremely concerned that other mediators and/or a judge would come to the same conclusions.  Further, going to court may end up with me having a worse judgement that what I have on the table now, not guaranteed, but possible.  Further still, she has demonstrated throughout the process that she has absolutely no respect for her obligations under our existing agreement, and the fact that she has reneged 3-4x in this process alone indicates to me that she won't likely uphold her end of the agreement in any case.  Which leaves me in the dubious position of trying to seek legal remedies which will be inflammatory, unpredictable and haven't of any help thus far. 

I have no idea how I can possibly prevail, or even get to a good spot / common understanding in conditions where logic doesn't have a seat at the table. 

I realize this is more of a rant than anything else.  Feel free to tell me I'm nuts, over reacting, wrong etc.  I think it would be a relief to understand that I'm at fault here, or am crazy, just about anything would feel better than this fever-dream of a situation.  I have no idea what to do.

-Frustratedperson

[GaGrl]

You are not nuts, over-reacting, or wrong.

Unfortunately, you are learning through experience what many partners of pwBPD have learned -- mediation is rarely successful when dealing with personality disordered and high conflict spouses/partners.I

What is your attorney advising g about a path forward? It sounds as if a strategy for court should be discussed. You certainly aren't getting what you need via the mediation route.

A court order with consequences built in for her non-compliance might be your best bet.

[frustratedperson]

Thank you for the note.  I appreciate it.

Court may be my best option, but I'm skeptical about leaving it in the hands of a person (judge) I don't know, when seemingly reasonable people are so easily manipulated. 

Is there any benefit to pursuing a psychological evaluation as part of this process?

[GaGrl]

Yes, and there are several other members here who have used a parenting evaluation to reach an equitable custody agreement that is healthy for the children. A psychological assessment can be part of the overall parenting evaluation.

You might also want to request a GAL (Guardian ad litem), which is a legal representative for your children, separate and apart from your lawyer and your ex-wife's lawyer. A GAL can help with discussions about counseling for the children and other topics that are child-centered.

How old are your children? You probably have many years ahead of you in which you need to have a significant influence on your children.

I saw your comment about realizing that you had become a workaholic to avoid being around your then-wife. My DH actually left his Department of Defense job to go back to active military service/Officer Candidate School because he it was a way he could support his family while being posted elsewhere much of the time. The daily return home had become more than he was willing to bear. His uBPD/NPD then-wife was a competent mother when the children were small, but she reacted negatively as they got older and had opinions and wants opposed to hers. DH then sought assignments that were more stable so he could influence the children -- and protect them. By the time the children were in their teens, they were begging him to divorce her. She moved out on her own, however, leaving the children with him.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm sorry it's been so difficult to see your children.

What does your lawyer think?

One of my close friends divorced a (previously diagnosed) narcissist.  They went to court.  Ex got a favorable custody schedule and went scorched earth trying to destroy her career and relationships.  He even succeeded in getting a judge to jail her for contempt when the teen wouldn't visit him.

Two years later, he has court-ordered zero access to two of his kids and limited supervised access to the third.  Judge apologized to my friend for jailing her and wiped it off her record.

The key was writing in consequences to the custody agreement.  Her L then filed for enforcement or contempt for Every. Single. Thing that ex violated the agreement for.  They were in court multiple times a month.  Ex always had a reason, always said it was for the kids and that my friend was brainwashing the kids to hate him.  But, they were in court SO MUCH that the judge finally figured out what was going on.  Ex tripped himself up on the stand - saying one thing at this hearing and the opposite at the next hearing.

Friend also had a really excellent therapist for the kids who testified in detail.

[ForeverDad]

Judges often profess to know little about the case and initially rule on the basics and issue typical or standard orders.  This is where you having documentation helps.  (And often where we fell short, having always hidden the conflicts behind closed doors from others.)  Court's often ignore "he always..." or "she always..." claims as vague unsubstantiated hearsay.  So have a private log, journal or calendar with details of the incidents, where, when, witnesses, summary of the events.  Being able to relate details is very helpful.  (Most here reported that courts only care about incidents in the 6 months prior to the start of the court cases.  However, older incidents may be used to illustrate patterns of behavior.)

Psych evals may be of little or limited benefit since they are quick assessments and don't go in depth into the parental behaviors with the kids, etc.  That's where a Guardian ad Litem (GAL, children's lawyer) or an in depth Custody Evaluation (over months and expensive) can expose the problems.

Since you may end up in family court at some point, it is important to consult various attorneys — you have a right to privacy and confidentiality in doing so — and select an experienced and proactive lawyer that you're comfortable with and who has practical strategies for your local court system.

Edit:  Some of the above may not apply since I reviewed your post and you're already divorced, but probably most of it does.

[frustratedperson]

Yes, and there are several other members here who have used a parenting evaluation to reach an equitable custody agreement that is healthy for the children. A psychological assessment can be part of the overall parenting evaluation.

You might also want to request a GAL (Guardian ad litem), which is a legal representative for your children, separate and apart from your lawyer and your ex-wife's lawyer. A GAL can help with discussions about counseling for the children and other topics that are child-centered.

How old are your children? You probably have many years ahead of you in which you need to have a significant influence on your children.

I saw your comment about realizing that you had become a workaholic to avoid being around your then-wife. My DH actually left his Department of Defense job to go back to active military service/Officer Candidate School because he it was a way he could support his family while being posted elsewhere much of the time. The daily return home had become more than he was willing to bear. His uBPD/NPD then-wife was a competent mother when the children were small, but she reacted negatively as they got older and had opinions and wants opposed to hers. DH then sought assignments that were more stable so he could influence the children -- and protect them. By the time the children were in their teens, they were begging him to divorce her. She moved out on her own, however, leaving the children with him.

Thank you for this.  Overall, I feel skeptical and disenfranchised as there are very few people who believe me, or understand what's really happening here.  As I mentioned previously, I've lost nearly all my prior circle of friends as she went scorched earth.  There are no examples of people who are dealing with both her and I and haven't taken her side.  I guess this is why I'm dumbstruck in reading the posts on this message board.  I could have written half of them. 

I'm getting familiar with the terms here, but my ex appears to be a high functioning uBPD.  She can appear relatively normal in public settings unless you disagree with her, ask too many questions, or if she thinks you are slighting her.  You are right, she is a competent care taker (food, clothes, schedule etc) for younger children, but as they develop their own opinions...

I'm concerned that no one will believe me.  It's been difficult to document specifics (per other suggestions here), and I haven't done a great job of this.  I have a ton of anxiety because it takes very little effort for her to make baseless claims, but it takes me 100x the time and energy to refute them and I just end up looking defensive.  She appears to be very, very sympathetic.  The only people that understand this are my immediate family, which are/would appear biased.
 Her reputation is one of being an amazing mom. 

My children range from 12 to 8.  I can see her influence on them when I have them.  Similar to her, they are very focused on identifying any perceived inequities i.e. "She got one more piece of candy than I did!  This must be remedied!"  She also screams at them, a lot, and they are modeling this as well. 

It does seem that now they are getting older there is more friction as the kids disagree with her.  She is also very easy to offend, so the kids can be on the wrong side of this as well.  The kids don't understand whats happening and all of this is completely normal for them. 

[frustratedperson]

I'm sorry it's been so difficult to see your children.

What does your lawyer think?

I think my lawyer deals with tons of people every day who believe their ex's to be crazy.  He tends to focus more on the tactical steps on what to do next.  Which I guess is right to some extent.  There are few who understand my situation and in many ways it seems not to matter...

[yeeter]

Frustrated:

Your frustrations are warranted - very very few people, including lawyers and judges, truly understand the dynamics involved if a person falls outside the 'usual' range of 'difficulty'.  Lawyers will say they have dealt with difficult people in the past, and believe it even, but there just arent that many that have experienced the true extreme end of PD behavior.  As such, the legal system has a limited usefulness.  By the time they 'figure it out', it is too late and you have been put at a huge disadvantage.  So dont rely on recommendations from people that really cant understand (because they can not, until they have lived it, and very few have).  Keep trying to use it to 'help', but the reality is that you may get limited help from it.  This for certain contributes to the frustration.

I will try to recommend some practical advice:

You have some amount of time with your children.  Maximize it, before they become indoctrinated to your wifes thinking.  Start reading and researching alienation.  Put as much of the advice into play as you can.  Maximize what time you do get with your children to build as strong a bond as possible.  Validate their feelings.  Make certain they know you love them.  Read Amy Bakers material and Craig Childress as a starting point.  Reach out to your children regularly, whether they respond or not (if they are interacting then keep at it daily, if they have pulled away then something weekly might be reasonable).  Dont overwhelm them with the 'heavy stuff', focus on building something loving and enjoyable between you.  Ensure they know you are available.  Do this now while you have even limited communications before those are lost.  To me, this is #1 priority (before things get worse - because likely things will only get worse).

Dont assume your lawyer will understand the extremity of what she is capable of.  Get a GAL (with psych background, not lawyer) assigned if there is any way possible.  This will ground your wife if nothing else as a negotiation piece (because likely she would not like a trained psych eval being done).  I was advised however, that a GAL only makes recommendations.  And that at the end of the day all the courts can really do is recommend counseling.  So if you can get family counseling agreed to independent of the GAL it saves a lot of time and $

Labels are of little practical value.  (narcissist, borderline).  Unfortunately it is a very trendy label these days and although narcissistic tendencies may be on the rise it just discredits you to use the label.  Illustrate behavior instead, let the others apply what labels they want.  For example, in my case my wife has an allergic reaction and goes to the ER if she sees me line of sight.  We even delayed pretrial (via zoom) to give her time to get my image covered up on the screen before we could proceed.  I do not have to say a word about it, that behavior speaks for itself as outside the norm (and even outside of what the professionals are used to).  I had a very highly respected expert tell me... "I have been doing this 30 years and have seen it all... but I have to admit, this is a new one I have never seen before".  So yep, everyday professionals (lawyers counselors judges) really dont get it.

Do not be afraid of court.  Or trial.  As mentioned, mediation/conciliation is unlikely to succeed if one party has unrealistic expectations.  Yet lawyers have a professional obligation to try.  A judge will want to know both sides made a sincere attempt and recommendations from conciliation can be brought up in court (which then quickly shows which side is unreasonable).  Unfortunately this takes time and $, but is a required step.  So push for it sooner than later.  And yep, judges may get snowed under in the process.  But it is rare for a judge to rule against time with both parents, and again this relationship with your children should remain top priority.

Judges likely do support counseling.  So propose family counseling.  It wouldnt look good to a judge if she refuses that.

Forget about what friends think.  I know it is a shock and unfair and you lose friends.  That is not really the biggest problem you have right now.  You can rebuild friend groups later.  DO pull in some close trusted friends/family for support. 

Keeping logs and documenting is good.  Whether they are ever used in court who knows (unlikely), but might be useful with a GAL and even for your own memory of things you forget over time (but can be quite outrageous, but has become so normal to you that you have forgotten the absurdity of some of the behavior).

Take care of your own physical and mental health.  The frustration is high.  Depression is certainly easy to fall into given how messed up the situation is.  Stay active with plenty of social interaction with those that do love/support you.

Get your own T that understands personality disorders and talk it out with them.  You need a dumping ground.  And over time, even close friends can become worn out from listening to it all.  They are vital to providing your outside perspective, but they cant really understand the dynamics either and at some point you just look like an idiot trying to explain it.  So keep a watch on supporters becoming tired of hearing about it.  Us them to focus on something more positive here/now and into the future. 

Own your own stuff.  Work on that.  But do not own MORE than your own part.  Your T should be helpful in sifting through those lines.

Oh one more piece of advice as you go through mediation:  DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FAIR AND REASONABLE.  And do not be afraid to rely on your own judgment of what that is.  Lawyers have a professional obligation to avoid it going to court, so they will give than is reasonable just to avoid it.  There is always the tradeoff of additional cost vs return - but at the end of the day even the conciliation judge told me there is a fairly narrow range of how assets will split.  So whats left... parenting stuff.  Time with your kids, involvement in education, religion, medical decisions are likely a given with the courts.  As is counseling highly likely.  The only other aspects are financial, which are pretty straightforward.

Just some initial thoughts, keep posting and keep your own self whole.

 

[frustratedperson]

yeeter - this is extremely helpful.  I'm new here and still trying to get oriented, so I very much appreciate the thoughtfulness, practicality and detail you included in your response.  This means a lot to me.

Last year (during mediation) I was working with a T who had experience in these situations and this was helpful during the early stages of mediation.  I think I'll reengage per your suggestion and save my partner from some of the venting sessions.  

My strategy is evolving.  One upside to what I have re: my agreement now is a reasonable summer schedule (she suggested this schedule so I presume she has plans).  Now thinking I may accept what is on the table now, as it does allow for a good summer schedule and even access in the fall (although not ideal), but I can re-initiate the process in the fall if she's violating it, or if it's otherwise not working.  At that point, per my lawyer, we would probably just start up with the "study" process at which point I can request a GAL etc.  

I see your comment re: alienation.  Do you have any suggested reading for anything else I should be watching out for?  

Again - I'm grateful for your feedback, it really means a lot to me.  After reading many of the stories here that I identify with, I feel a sense of relief and of optimism.  Thanks everyone.

[yeeter]

Its hard to know what to recommend as good advice, there is a saying:  "Advice is always free unless you TAKE it!"

Another piece after re-reading your thread.  You have the right (and responsibility) to create your own parenting environment.  One simple rule might be 'no yelling'.  Treat each other with respect (and discuss what that means).  Bed times, chores, play time balance, etc.  One family I know had values stenciled into the paint in the req room, on what their beliefs were.

Create the model and example you want your kids to learn.  What happens at moms house can be at moms but that doesnt mean it is ok to yell or hit at your house.  SHOW them a different way, and LIVE it with them.

For PA reading - I might suggest you just pick one of the books from Amy Baker and go from there.  Let the content steer you in the next direction based on what is useful.  Depending on your circumstances, you might even consider a parenting coach (counselor working with you to provide suggestions on how to build the connection with your kids as strong as possible).  And of course tools in managing communication with your co-parent - the more you can keep this sane the better off for everyone.  Understanding that there is a limit to what is under your control.  BIFF is a good tool.  JADE is a good tool.  Validation of emotions/feelings can help. 

[frustratedperson]

Hi all -

I really appreciated the support I had received from you all this summer.  Apparently, I'm a "foul weather friend" and have come back now that conditions have changed again.

The advice below from Yeeter was unfortunately prescient.  I had been having regular communications with my boys and had a great summer with them.  Since school started, I've had them every other weekend.  Before the last time I picked them up, I had a message from my middle son that he didn't want to come, but rather wanted to stay home to "rest."  He came along anyway and we had a nice weekend.  I came to pick them up this Friday, was greeted by my youngest and oldest sons, but the middle one was refusing to come out of his room.  My ex called me there to talk with him, he did not want to talk and and was extremely agitated.  He was trying to get out of the room and my ex physically restrained him, telling him that he needed to tell me how he feels or she will.  She started by saying "he's mad at you."  My son then went on to tell me he "found out that I was seeing my (now partner) before the divorce was final" and that I cheated on the family and ruined his life.  That I've made terrible choices etc.  That he never wants to see me again and that I'm not his father."  This while still being physically restrained on his bedroom floor.  My ex wife wouldn't look me in the eyes.  She then said "[oldest son] feels the same way."  My oldest was upset by this, both because he had asked her not to say anything, and he does not feel the same way (he's angry at what he's heard, but he's not in the same boat).  The little one was just scared and sad. 

You have some amount of time with your children.  Maximize it, before they become indoctrinated to your wifes thinking.  Start reading and researching alienation.  Put as much of the advice into play as you can.  Maximize what time you do get with your children to build as strong a bond as possible.  Validate their feelings.  Make certain they know you love them.  Read Amy Bakers material and Craig Childress as a starting point.  Reach out to your children regularly, whether they respond or not (if they are interacting then keep at it daily, if they have pulled away then something weekly might be reasonable).  Dont overwhelm them with the 'heavy stuff', focus on building something loving and enjoyable between you.  Ensure they know you are available.  Do this now while you have even limited communications before those are lost.  To me, this is #1 priority (before things get worse - because likely things will only get worse).

My son had not mentioned anything about this to me, but reportedly speaks openly about these things while at my ex-wife's house. 
The two upset boys ran out of the house and down the street.  It was a mess.  Eventually I got them to agree to go to dinner with me, which was good for getting everyone calmed down a bit.  My youngest wanted to come with me, so I was able to spend some time with him.

My oldest is now talking to me, so there's progress there, but the middle one is still very upset and refusing to speak to me and has blocked me from messaging apps etc. 

There is just so much here to unpack.  Getting into the weeds a bit, he's primarily upset that I started seeing my partner before my divorce was completed.  While this is true, it's also true that my ex started seeing her now fiancee during this same time.  She could have explained the difference between separation and divorce at any point, or any other reassurance that what happened between she and I has nothing to do with my feelings for the kids.  My ex believes I cheated on her, so it's not hard to understand the message.  Apparently this has been festering inside him for years.   

I keep going over this in my mind.  Even if I where an awful, philandering dirt-bag, would it ever be a reasonable thing for a parent to burden a child with this type of thing?  My ex-wife has mentioned several times in various rants that this day was coming when the boys "find out what you did to our family" etc.  It was difficult listening to what he was saying and hearing my ex's words coming out of his mouth.

This week I should hopefully be able to reconnect with the therapist I was working with. 

Looking for any advice/feedback etc.  Please tell me if I'm wrong or missing something.  I hope I am, nothing makes any sense when my ex is involved and it would be a relief to know there's something in my control that I could adjust.  At a loss, again.

[frustratedperson]

For Reference: This was my conversation (redacted) with my ex-wife immediately prior to me leaving to pick up the boys (in the above post).  My youngest was sick and I asked her to have him COVID tested.  

Many of our conversations go this way.  I do my best not to engage.  FWIW: I contest the facts that she lays out, but they all have a nugget of truth to them so it sounds plausible.  Her strategy in many things is to turn on a "firehose of falsehoods" like she does here.  I can ignore them most of the time, but It's difficult in certain settings like mediation where I can disprove what she's saying, but it would take hours to explain vs the seconds it takes for her to rattle them off.  I feel like she may actually believe what she's saying, despite it being either abjectly false, or a very specific interpretation stemming from an event.

Conversation:

Ex-Wife:
Kid #3 home.  Bad ears again.  He’s sleeping.  Trying to get him in to see dr.
Can’t see him until 2:45.

Me:
Ok, thanks for letting me know.  Please have him tested for COVID when you get him in.

Ex-Wife:
They don’t do that at our pediatrician.  If you want that, you take him. Or you tell me now that you’re not coming.  

Kid #3 has two parents. Step up for once.  It’s insane how little you do to actually parent.  You should be ashamed of yourself. You are an absentee father.  

You didn’t respond about my note re Kid #1 being good at fencing. You never wrote and asked how Kid #3 felt all week.  You weren’t on any open house videos for Kid #1 or Kid #2 this week.  

You pay next to nothing to support them each month and paid zero
 for several months at one point.  The law snd your children are not games a d negotiations to be won.  You rarely pay expenses on time if at all or make me wait 15 days so you can lord some self conceived power over me?  Honestly…I don’t mind when you’re late. It just proves you are selfish.

You have no job.  Yet you can’t participate in anything and then ask to bring the boys home early.  I have a job, I am in the PTC of both schools chairing events, I take care of the boys when they’re sick, take them to practices and games and play dates.  And I’ve had four major surgeries in the past two years yet I’m kicking ass at parenting.  You show up occasionally, feed them fast food, you were on your phone during most of Kid #3’s baseball game last week and you never ask me how any of the boys is doing.  

You are selfish, self absorbed and absent.  Then you have the nerve to ask if the boys were mad at you when they didn’t want to come see you?  Open your eyes. You are a very smart man in the business world.  But not at being a dad.  You’re clueless.  I supported their love and adoration of you for years and years.  Now they are seeing what I can no longer hide. They are mad.  They are hurt.  You are screwing up on having a relationship with your children.  The most amazing boys in the world.  I pity you.  


Me:
So, you are refusing to get our son tested for COVID 19?

Ex-Wife:
You can come test him if you think that’s necessary.  Or if a doctor tells me to do it.  Otherwise I’m working and I have a sick kid at home.  

Stop trying to act like a lawyer like you’re going to catch me doing something wrong. Grow up. You’d get laughed out of court.


Ex-Wife:
They don’t do that at our pediatrician.  If you want that, you take him. Or you tell me now that you’re not coming.  

Kid #3 has two parents. Step up for once.  It’s insane how little you do to actually parent.  You should be ashamed of yourself. You are an absentee father.  

You didn’t respond about my note re Kid #1 being good at [activity]. You never wrote and asked how Kid #3 felt all week.  You weren’t on any open house videos for Kid #1 or Kid #2 this week.  

You pay next to nothing to support them each month and paid zero
 for several months at one point.  The law snd your children are not games a d negotiations to be won.  You rarely pay expenses on time if at all or make me wait 15 days so you can lord some self conceived power over me?  Honestly…I don’t mind when you’re late. It just proves you are selfish.

You have no job.  Yet you can’t participate in anything and then ask to bring the boys home early.  I have a job, I am in the PTC of both schools chairing events, I take care of the boys when they’re sick, take them to practices and games and play dates.  And I’ve had four major surgeries in the past two years yet I’m kicking ass at parenting.  You show up occasionally, feed them fast food, you were on your phone during most of Kid #3’s baseball game last week and you never ask me how any of the boys is doing.  

You are selfish, self absorbed and absent.  Then you have the nerve to ask if the boys were mad at you when they didn’t want to come see you?  Open your eyes. You are a very smart man in the business world.  But not at being a dad.  You’re clueless.  I supported their love and adoration of you for years and years.  Now they are seeing what I can no longer hide. They are mad.  They are hurt.  You are screwing up on having a relationship with your children.  The most amazing boys in the world.  I pity you.  


Me:
You don't think it’s necessary to take a child to get a COVID test, when he’s sick?
This is your position?

Ex-Wife:
His ears hurt. That’s it.  And it started bc you were irresponsible and didn’t give him his
Claritin.   No other symptoms.   He Was negative for covid Saturday when I took him. Dr said dumb you test but I knew you’d be a jerk about it.  As you clearly are.

Me:
He’s still sick
He has brothers and classmates who would have been exposed if he’s positive.  

Ex-Wife:
No. His ears hurt.
Congrats!   As [my former close friend] always says:  you’re dad of the year!  
You don’t like my parenting of our boys, go ahead and file a motion. I’d love it

Me:
So, you aren’t taking him to get COVID 19 tested, is that your position?

Ex-Wife:
Not unless a doctor tells me I have to. No I am not.  
I know you love to blame me and use it as an excuse not to parent (remember 6 months
of not seeing your boys) so go ahead and bail.
Are you coming to pick up the boys at 4:00?

Me:
Yes

[GaGrl]

I hope you keep her text conversations as documentation, even if they are used only to remind you later that she is vitriolic.

Are your sons in therapy? Are you, or would you consider his g in family therapy with them?

[ForeverDad]

I read your prior posts.  Your divorce is over but you have had less time with your kids after you moved to another town and then the pandemic hit and made it worse due to your health risks.

Mediator asks no questions, doesn't question hopelessly broken logic and suggests to me that I consider being more flexible.

From your description it sounds like you don't have a good mediator.  When mediator tells you to "be more flexible" the unsaid message is that he knows she won't be flexible unlike you.  Is that right?

It seems the biggest hurdle is the weaponizing of adult choices.  Evidently you both started other relationships during the divorce process.  If at all possible, the adults' life choices should have little impact on the parenting.  But it is, your ex is making sure of that.  Sounds like they're being primed to reject your adult decisions (made in the past) yet why are they oblivious to her past decisions?  Do they not know of them?  They would benefit from counseling to help them get unbiased neutral perspectives.

I too have multiple health risks for the virus.  While I'm not hugging everyone in sight, I haven't been a hermit either.  I have been doing more than officialdom advises (isolate, get a vaccine and go to the hospital ICU if it worsens).  I can't sit back and wait for things to happen to me.  More proactive (and downplayed almost everywhere) is to build my immunity to resist viruses - vitamins D3, C, minerals such as zinc (formulations other than oxide), etc.  Ponder whether that's right for you.

[frustratedperson]

From your description it sounds like you don't have a good mediator.  When mediator tells you to "be more flexible" the unsaid message is that he knows she won't be flexible unlike you.  Is that right?

It seems the biggest hurdle is the weaponizing of adult choices.  Evidently you both started other relationships during the divorce process.  If at all possible, the adults' life choices should have little impact on the parenting.  But it is, your ex is making sure of that.  Sounds like they're being primed to reject your adult decisions (made in the past) yet why are they oblivious to her past decisions?  Do they not know of them?  They would benefit from counseling to help them get unbiased neutral perspectives.

Thank you for taking the time to re-read my posts in this thread.

I think you are right re: the mediator.  My ex would just threaten to walk away and become hysterical if things were not going her way. 

I have done everything I possibly can to avoid exposing my ex's issues to my boys.  I never speak ill of her, I don't make offhand comments or insinuations and never critique her.  For reference, my ex does this all the time. 

No kid should be burdened by this BS.  It's like I'm in a battle and I can't do anything but take hits.  I'm trying to spare my boys while my ex is more than pleased to use them.  I'm hesitant to defend myself because it could come off as defensive or avoiding responsibility, but it has reached an inflection point where it is seriously affecting our relationship. 

Talking about this with them feels like a binary choice.  I either bring them into the fold and explain how they are being manipulated, or I hold my tongue and wait for them to figure it out themselves.  I am just so frustrated. 

There's a devastated 10 year old boy out there tonight who thinks his dad hates him, abandoned him and that he's better off without him...

[GaGrl]

When you have been in mediation, are you in the same room with your Ex? It sounds as if that is the format your mediator uses.

When I did a different form of mediation (I conducted mediation in corporate HR situations), I did not have both parties in the same room. I had them in separate conference rooms, and I moved between them. You might request this format for any future attempt at mediation. That way, the mediator is the one who has to wait out what she spews -- not you. And you get uninterrupted time to make your case.

However, you may have a mediator who is not skilled with high conflict situations, in any format.

You may just need to proceed to a court filing.

[ForeverDad]

I have done everything I possibly can to avoid exposing my ex's issues to my boys.  I never speak ill of her, I don't make offhand comments or insinuations and never critique her.  For reference, my ex does this all the time. 

No kid should be burdened by this BS.  It's like I'm in a battle and I can't do anything but take hits.  I'm trying to spare my boys while my ex is more than pleased to use them...

Talking about this with them feels like a binary choice.  I either bring them into the fold and explain how they are being manipulated, or I hold my tongue and wait for them to figure it out themselves.  I am just so frustrated.

Taking the high road and remaining silent may not, in itself, be the best way to address your ex's low blows and involving your kids in the parents' adult issues.

At your next counseling appointments why not ask how to properly counter your ex's casting the kids as judgers of your adult actions (and not her own too)?  Kids typically don't want to be drawn into adult/marital conflicts.  Kids should be encouraged to be kids, not judgers and blamers taking sides.

[alleyesonme]

Frustrated,

I'm currently divorcing an ex with BPD, and she's ruined the last several years of my life and is doing everything she can to extend that as long as possible. A lot of the same patterns that you have experienced with yours are exactly what I have experienced as well. The whole notion of refusing to let the kids see you, and then using the fact that you haven't seen the kids as proof of you not being a good dad is so...I'll just say it...crazy to 99.9% of the world, but makes perfect sense to people with BPD.

What she's doing to your kids is parental alienation and extreme emotional abuse. I know it's exhausting, but fight this as hard as possible as soon as possible. If you have a somewhat competent lawyer and judge, the tables may turn very quickly in your favor. I hope for you and your kids' sake that that's what happens.

[kells76]

frustratedperson, when I read about the double bind that your kids' mom is putting you into, I immediately thought of this article, entitled "Ju-jitsu Parenting":

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320051.0

Written by Dr Craig Childress, the subtitle is "Fighting Back from the Down Position".

He nails it right from the start -- there is a narrative being constructed about you, in such a way as, whether "intended" or not, paints you as the villain. Every move you make is being manipulated into reinforcing to your kids "dad doesn't care about you, dad always gets what he wants, dad never listens to you".

It takes some really unintuitive communication and listening skills to fight back against those lies without your defensiveness "proving" the narrative -- it's exactly what you're noticing:

I'm hesitant to defend myself because it could come off as defensive or avoiding responsibility

That's the setup. You're being baited and funneled into certain "normal" moves (defending yourself, denying that certain things happened) that, while true, in actuality play right into "the narrative" being fed to your kids.

It takes a lot of strength and self-management, yet it is 110% possible to take those moves your kids' mom is trying and actually use them to the advantage of your relationship with the boys.

Don't hesitate to share your thoughts about that article -- let us know how else we can walk you through this.

Believe me, been there, done that, still doing that... it can get better.

[frustratedperson]

I'm currently divorcing an ex with BPD, and she's ruined the last several years of my life and is doing everything she can to extend that as long as possible.

Yes, it’s a strange dynamic where there’s simultaneously the intent to completely annihilate me, and at the same time always looking for reasons to try to get me to engage. 

[frustratedperson]

The whole notion of refusing to let the kids see you, and then using the fact that you haven't seen the kids as proof of you not being a good dad is so...I'll just say it...crazy to 99.9% of the world, but makes perfect sense to people with BPD.

Exactly - doing everything she can to limit my ability to see them, and placing arbitrary conditions on those visits.  Then turning around to claim that she’s the one “stuck” doing all the hard work because I’ve abandoned then…

[frustratedperson]

Written by Dr Craig Childress, the subtitle is "Fighting Back from the Down Position".

He nails it right from the start -- there is a narrative being constructed about you, in such a way as, whether "intended" or not, paints you as the villain. Every move you make is being manipulated into reinforcing to your kids "dad doesn't care about you, dad always gets what he wants, dad never listens to you".

It takes some really unintuitive communication and listening skills to fight back against those lies without your defensiveness "proving" the narrative -- it's exactly what you're noticing:

That's the setup. You're being baited and funneled into certain "normal" moves (defending yourself, denying that certain things happened) that, while true, in actuality play right into "the narrative" being fed to your kids.

Thank you very much for this!  This has developed quite quickly as the boys had not told me about the issues that are now erupting to the surface, but have apparently been bubbling for years. 

This is sound advice for my communications with the boys when I get the opportunity.  In reading this, I realize I’ve made mistakes.  I think in the past I’ve gotten angry/upset when the kids give me feedback/criticisms that clearly originated with their mother (she likes to telegraph her complaints in rants like those above and then the boys repeat them using the same words). 

At the suggestion of forum members, I have also started reading “Understanding the Borderline Mother” which has also been an eye-opener.  One thing that struck me was the concept of “Distortion” where a BPD person actually alters facts to fit their reality.  I’ve long wondered why my ex can insist on demonstrably incorrect data points.  She doesn’t think she’s lying, she BELIEVES this to be true because that’s how her brain works.  In the same way, my boys feel like their influenced opinions are their opinions and I need to treat them as such and react in a more understanding way.  I think I can use some of the lessons in ju-jitsu to better sort my way through those things. 

More to come, but thank you all so much for your suggestions.  I really appreciate it.  - One other topic from UBM is how BPD people typically appear completely normal, kind and understanding people to those outside of their homes, thus people who have to deal with them are often discredited.  Having a community like this makes me feel like I’m not completely mad and that I’m not the only one.  Thank you

[ForeverDad]

This has developed quite quickly as the boys had not told me about the issues that are now erupting to the surface, but have apparently been bubbling for years...

... the kids give me feedback/criticisms that clearly originated with their mother (she likes to telegraph her complaints in rants like those above and then the boys repeat them using the same words).

Kids don't naturally come up with Blaming and Emotional shunning.  So I doubt very much this latest behavior has been "bubbling for years".  If this refusal to visit is something new then odds are she is ramping up the situation.  When you see it from that perspective then you can realize it's not so much you but her.  IMHO

I've read, probably with too little focus, about Ju-jitsi parenting but likely it's because by then my parenting conflict was mostly in the past.

One important difference from the old-style parental alienation concept by Richard A. Gardner decades ago is that psychologists resisted his description.  Dr. Craig Childress took a different approach, that parental alienation is a form of child abuse and that fits better into the mental health/disorder framework.

[frustratedperson]

Kids don't naturally come up with Blaming and Emotional shunning.  So I doubt very much this latest behavior has been "bubbling for years".  If this refusal to visit is something new then odds are she is ramping up the situation.  When you see it from that perspective then you can realize it's not so much you but her.  IMHO

I've read, probably with too little focus, about Ju-jitsi parenting but likely it's because by then my parenting conflict was mostly in the past.

One important difference from the old-style parental alienation concept by Richard A. Gardner decades ago is that psychologists resisted his description.  Dr. Craig Childress took a different approach, that parental alienation is a form of child abuse and that fits better into the mental health/disorder framework.

I think that you are probably correct.  If you look at the text message exchange I posted above, this was the interaction I had with her regarding my sick boy #3.  She was clearly very agitated and has a habit of disseminating this type of information by having loud conversations, either in person or on the phone, or sometimes muttering to herself, within earshot of the boys.  

Until very recently, I would speak to the boys via voice chat 2-5x a week and could always hear her in the background going on about some person or another.  I’m guessing she was in a rage and was on a rampage discussing this with some 3rd party ahead of my arrival on Friday.  

The categorization of this behavior as child abuse feels apt to me.  My 10 year old will never forget this.  I feel like this most recent episode can be managed through, but they are going to have to deal with her for their entire lives.  It looks like I will be able to get access to them in order to meet with a therapist, which is good.  I am intensely uncomfortable with the dynamic now, as I don’t have much direct contact with them and she’s placing herself between us, so who knows how our messages are being distorted, given basic demonstrable facts are distorted in her memory.

[alleyesonme]

You bring up a key identifying trait of people with BPD - that they often use emotions to justify facts, rather than the other way around. For most of us, we feel an emotion as a result of a fact. People with BPD feel emotions and then unconsciously distort the narrative of what actually happened to fit their emotions. So yes, your ex's version of reality is not accurate, but she may truly believe that it is accurate because she has this PD. My ex is an absolute genius at this and has successfully hooked one of the decision makers in our case by doing that. It's downright scary.

[frustratedperson]

I think coming to terms with this fact ^^^ is going to be critical to my moving forward here.  In that context, I feel much less anger at her.  I was uncertain there for a while if I had gone mad.  Nothing made sense.  I'd go back and re-read and prior written communications and wonder how in the world she could come to that conclusion and conclude that she is just lying to be difficult.  She's not lying.  

This was also challenging to deal with as my ex was very effective at her scorched earth policy and isolated me from many of my prior relationships with people I had known since I was a child.  

Further muddying the waters for me are pieces like this:
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

As I read through this, I find myself thinking "this is going to be my ex in 10 years."  Then I realize that if she were to read this piece, she would think the same thing about me.  The quote you mentioned about emotions defining reality is stated almost verbatim in this.  I've been guilty of being defensive / angry when I've been confronted with complaints from my children that I perceived to have come from my ex...  

It seems both my ex and I would think the other is unconsciously distorting facts.   

[yeeter]

Frustrated,

I have lived this.  And lost my contact with 2 of my 3 children through the process.  The entire history of the relationship between me and my children has been re-written to portray me in as negative light as possible.  I am being made out to be dangerous to their health, as well as the health of their mother, if they were to be around me.

Other adults and even my wifes own family are quite upset at her.  Some have cut off all contact with her (which is really the only answer for a true NPD/BPD disorder - unfortunately not an option when children involved).  Divorce lawyers 'think' they have dealt with difficult people in the past and go down the normal path of 'two sides to every story' and 'time will allow the emotions to settle down'.

But time will not.  In fact, time has only made things WORSE as her hold over the kids has reinforced (pandemic also hurt this because less interaction for them with third party normal perspective).  The court system provides an advantage to the party wanting to drive conflict, and wanting to drag it out.

The most important thing you have right now is direct interaction with your kids.  Even if not as much as you like.  I tried 'take the high road - they will figure it out in time'.. this is reasonable advice for NORMAL divorce conflict.  But it is NOT good advice for divorce from someone willing to distort, manipulate, and gaslight them. 

Get a lawyer with experience with parental alienation cases.  Tricky because the term is being misused by many (just like accusations of personality disorders are being used willy nilly - which hurts those cases that ARE).

Consider 'Domestic abuse by proxy'.  If you trigger categorization as an abuse case the rules and support changes.  Likely a GAL will be pulled in, and try to influence selection of a GAL with psychology background (not a lawyer, some are just other lawyers).  You need a deeper dive than what the usual divorce lawyer/court process allows.

Time matters.  The longer this goes on the more your child will adopt her narrative.  And it may never get reversed (possibly not ever... some will tell you 'they will come back when they are adults'... thats just not true).

My opinion, and this will go against 'some' of the advice.  Make sure your child hears your own narrative.  A child will fill the void with whatever is available to them, and a one sided narrative is all they have unless you share yours.  Tricky, because you do not want to suck in and be part of the same problem/behavior, but at the same time you have to give them something.  It needs to be done without anger and with a level head.  Consult professional 'parent coaching' on how to do it.

[frustratedperson]

Yeeter - Thank you for sharing this with us.  This was painful to read as I’m sure it was to write.  There is just so much pain and anguish here, and for no good reason.  You’ve been through hell.  I’m sorry for your pain and your loss and very much appreciate your thoughts and support.

I have a few updates:

• I have engaged a therapist to help me navigate this situation.  She’s been great so far and was very helpful ahead of my last visit.
• My oldest and youngest sons are now speaking with me and I feel that things are going better with them.  The middle son is still very angry.
• I am lining up a therapist that the three of us can work with.

The barrage of alienating discussions continue.  I received a several page email from my ex after my last visit stating that my three boys and my ex (and assuming her fiancé) discussed over dinner how my refusal to “admit having an affair” was impacting our relationship and they were losing respect for me…  

[yeeter]

How is it going?