Stayed firm with my boundaries, but now she is threatening my kids

[Dad50]

So, I have been working on better boundaries with my pwBPD, mainly around having some time to myself and kids. As it is we spend 7 days a week together, getting together multiple times a day. Tonight I reminded her I wanted Monday nights to just have some time around my own house to take care of day to day things. We had already gotten together twice today, but she asked if I was coming over to hang out at night.

I said no. I enjoyed the time we had, but I needed some time at my home to do laundry and things like that. My partner started screaming at me for quite some time. She was enraged. The discussion ended with her saying I just wanted to spend time with my kids and not her. This is usually the tactic. She accuses me of choosing others over her, even if it is not true. There is zero chance of reasoning with her and telling her I am just exhausted from running around all the time and just need a couple nights a week at my own house. The reality is that sometimes I do want to spend time with my kids, and that seems like it should be okay too.

Well, it ended with her saying  that she is going to set boundaries too and go after my kids if they ever treat her badly. I don't know why she is making this about the kids. I don;t know how to convince her it is not about me choosing them over her. And it scares me that she wants to take out her anger on the kids because I just wanted some time. 

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[babyducks]

Hello Dad50,

I said no. I enjoyed the time we had, but I needed some time at my home to do laundry and things like that. My partner started screaming at me for quite some time. She was enraged.

Quite some time?    How long is quite some time and what did you do while this was happening?   

Have you ever heard of circular arguments Dad50?     Here is a good link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

You've expressed what you are doing and why you are doing it using the techniques described here right?     I would have tried a DEARMAN in the situation you describe.     


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0

If you have expressed yourself clearly and listened as well as you could, then staying in a conversation where your partner is enraged and communicating in a disrespectful manner is counterproductive.    Nothing good is going to come from some one screaming at you.   This is a circular argument.   the same ground is covered over and over and nothing is achieved.    You don't want to stay in a circular argument.  You should not tolerate threats or emotional or verbal abuse.

Do you feel comfortable sharing some of what you actually said?   Sometimes small tweaks in the way the message is phrased can make a large difference.

The discussion ended with her saying I just wanted to spend time with my kids and not her. This is usually the tactic. She accuses me of choosing others over her, even if it is not true.

 There is zero chance of reasoning with her and telling her I am just exhausted from running around all the time and just need a couple nights a week at my own house. The reality is that sometimes I do want to spend time with my kids, and that seems like it should be okay too.

You are 100% right.   There is zero chance of reasoning with her.    This isn't about reason.   or facts.    and No you can't explain it.   You and your partner are having two different conversations.   She is telling you she never feels like she matters.    You are explaining you have different needs.      She is talking about her feelings and you are explaining your facts.

When the conversation is this far off the rails leave it.   How you leave matters.

I don't want to fight with you.   I am taking a break from this conversation.
This (not you, this) doesn't feel productive to me,  I am going to leave for now.  I'll talk with you tomorrow.
We've covered this ground several times now,   it's time to stop.   I am going home and will need a few days to think.

Well, it ended with her saying  that she is going to set boundaries too and go after my kids if they ever treat her badly. I don't know why she is making this about the kids. I don;t know how to convince her it is not about me choosing them over her. And it scares me that she wants to take out her anger on the kids because I just wanted some time. 

hmmmm.    the potential threat here is not okay.     a couple of questions:   how did the word boundaries come up?   I am going to suggest that the things you learn here, the words, phrases, ideas stay here until you feel more comfortable using the tools.    this takes practice and it is certainly okay to practice here with us.    walk through a conversation with us and see if we can help adjust some responses.

You can't convince her that this isn't a choice and you are picking your kids over her.   and by continuing to try you are engaging in an unproductive debate and fueling her dysregulation.    Think of it as a fire you are pouring gas on.    stop trying.

what was your response when she said she was going to go after your kids?

How did you leave things?  are you home doing your laundry?  or are you back on your regular schedule where you are spending time with her on her terms?

'ducks

[Dad50]

1). So, the argument happened on our drive home from yoga class. She was going to drop me off at my house, but asked if I was coming over to hang out and watch a show. So the argument lasted the whole car ride, and then back and forth texting for an hour after she dropped me off. (I realize I should have disengaged from the texting, but she is relentless and I feel almost an addictive compulsion to check messages)

I actually stayed pretty calm in the car. She was yelling every name you can imagine. Accusing me of using her and just coming over when I was bored. Telling me she didn't even want me over there so much, but now that it was a habit I had to continue it.

I did pretty decent about not justifying, but I did try and explain that I had been trying to ask for space for five years. For five years I had been saying that maybe 7 nights a week is not really a good balance, especially since we might also see each other several times throughout the day in addition to the 7 nights a week.  I also tried to explain that it wasn't about the kids or choosing them. It was about finding balance while still making time for each other.  Anyway, lot of screaming, lot of name calling. I kept pretty level and didn't name call or yell.

I did try some explaining and justifying, so that could be better I guess. It is just so hard because it is so out there. I mean, she will say that she doesn't even want me there all those nights, and no one even really likes me that much, but every time I try and take a night apart she screams and yells and calls names.

Our discussions do match the circular discussion you referenced almost 100% in both her reaction and mine. I often don't feel strong enough to end the argument.

2) I did kind of feel like I did DEARMAN, but invariably whenever I ask for something I need and describe it in that way, it immediately turns into "Well, here is what I need and now you need to apologize for not meeting my needs and you need to validate me." 

I have a hard time asking for what I want because I almost always end up having to apologize for expressing a need, even if I try to do it in the most careful of ways. It is quite negatively reinforcing of course because then I don't express what I need, but it seems completely unsafe to request my needs even when using techniques like DEARMAN.

3) Mainly what I said was "I am glad we had time together twice today. I need some time to myself though tonight. "

When she started saying that I was using her and that I just wanted time off to be with my kids I did remind her that I had been trying to ask for this for years. When she said that she actually didn't want to be with me every single night, I did say this was confusing because every time I have asked for time and space she has guilted and yelled. These bits of reasoning were helpless.

4) When she threatened my kids and said how terrible they were and that I had to "tell my kids to stop being terrible" I said several times that my kids were completely deferential of her and terrified of her, which was not good I know. She kept insisting that I apologize for my kids and in addition tell them to stop being terrible. I kept saying I have told the kids to respect her and that they do, but she wouldn't relent. the only way it felt like it could end is if I apologized for my kids, apologized for myself and promised to lecture the kids on being nice to her.

the conversation ended, but the drama picked up the next morning and she is texted me all day at work. This is exhausting

[babyducks]

If the texting argument is still going on, I would suggest you disengage.   

Politely, kindly, carefully disengage.    Something like "I can't continue this conversation now.   I'm turning off my phone  for a while. "

And then do it.    At least mute the ringer and don't check it.

Managing conflicts and disengaging from circular arguments is  our responsibility in these situations.   

Is anything productive being discussed at all?   If the answer is no,  you need to stop the conflict.

[Dad50]

Yeah, I disengaged and definitely need to learn better disengagement techniques. Not feeling guilty about disengaging is a big part of it, like I have to answer every one of her concerns or I am bad person. Even when she is calling me names, blaming me, ridiculing me, etc.

thanks.

[babyducks]

It's very difficult to not recoil when attacked.    It's very hard to not defend ourselves.   

The thing is though Dad's,  what you are describing is verbal abuse.   The more you tolerate the verbal abuse,  the worse it will get.

Most of us arrived here thinking we could explain things just right, use just the right set of words and our partners would suddenly snap too and say "ooh I get it now ".

I don't think that has ever actually happened.

By nature we mostly seem to be explainers.    except the more we explain the more fuel we put on the fire.   The more we give our partners to refute.    In these circumstances,  less is more.

What do you think?

[Dad50]

Yeah, it is hard not getting defensive. I realize I have to stop trying to make sense of it. For awhile, not recently anymore, I was so at my wits end I thought, "I have do to her what she is doing to me, maybe she will see how painful it is." 

Nope. All that did was let her remember and take the very few times I called her names and make every argument about that if I even question her calling me insult upon insult. I have to get more adept at walking away, but of course that brings about abandonement issues

[babyducks]

hello again Dad50

thanks for the detailed response.  as I read through I see a couple of things that might warrant further exploration.   remember this isn't so much about explaining things so she can understand them.   this is more about communicating in ways that avoid opportunities for triggering a dysregulation but affording the possibility of shared understanding.

So the argument lasted the whole car ride, and then back and forth texting for an hour after she dropped me off. (I realize I should have disengaged from the texting, but she is relentless and I feel almost an addictive compulsion to check messages)

ouch.   yikes.    okay.    being stuck in the car is tough spot.     I hope you can see when you look back at this, that it went on too long and you participated too much.   you want to practice leaving circular arguments.    actually sit down and think of phrases that end the argument.  phrases that you can say and stick to in the heat of the moment.

why do you think you feel an addictive compulsion to check messages?    what do you think is going on with that?

I actually stayed pretty calm in the car. She was yelling every name you can imagine. Accusing me of using her and just coming over when I was bored. Telling me she didn't even want me over there so much, but now that it was a habit I had to continue it.

I used to call my relationship a 'needs entitlement war'.   it wasn't my idea.  it came from a book by Margalis Fjelstad, Ph.D.   best book I ever read on the topic.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0

and it was a needs entitlement war.   whose need was more important.   whose needs were going to be taken care of.    Fjelstad says that pwBPD are both unwilling to recognize and respect the limits of others and demand rights, commitments and behaviors from others that they are not willing or able to reciprocate.    yep.    nailed that.

I did try and explain that I had been trying to ask for space for five years.

hmmm.     I'm guessing this didn't go over well?    its likely that your partner heard this as something like "I haven't really wanted to be with you for five years and you are just too foolish to have noticed".     can you see how this phrase would be a trigger for her?

  I also tried to explain that it wasn't about the kids or choosing them. It was about finding balance while still making time for each other. 

this really isn't about the kids.   that's a red herring to drag the conversation into territory that she feels more comfortable with, i.e. prove to me that you love me more.    I would suggest that whenever the kids come into the discussion redirect casually away.    It's about you and what you want.   you want time at home to rest and recharge.    you want time to yourself.    I'd suggest phrases like  'my kids have nothing to do with this, I am going to do what I feel is best for me'.    you would have to put it in your own words of course.   how would that sound?

I did try some explaining and justifying, so that could be better I guess. It is just so hard because it is so out there. I mean, she will say that she doesn't even want me there all those nights, and no one even really likes me that much, but every time I try and take a night apart she screams and yells and calls names.

if you are not adding something new to the conversation don't say it.  don't repeat yourself over and over.  it is outside the purely logical.    the 'reasons' she is giving for her behavior are designed to cover her fears and make her feel more secure.    try and keep that in the back of your mind.

invariably whenever I ask for something I need and describe it in that way, it immediately turns into "Well, here is what I need and now you need to apologize for not meeting my needs and you need to validate me." 

I have a hard time asking for what I want because I almost always end up having to apologize for expressing a need, even if I try to do it in the most careful of ways. It is quite negatively reinforcing of course because then I don't express what I need, but it seems completely unsafe to request my needs even when using techniques like DEARMAN.

one of my favorite lines from this website is "you need to be emotionally quite strong to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it".    makes so much sense.    what can you do to build or rebuild your emotional strength?    if you had to tell someone else how to build emotional strength how would you describe it?

4) When she threatened my kids and said how terrible they were and that I had to "tell my kids to stop being terrible" I said several times that my kids were completely deferential of her and terrified of her, which was not good I know. She kept insisting that I apologize for my kids and in addition tell them to stop being terrible. I kept saying I have told the kids to respect her and that they do, but she wouldn't relent. the only way it felt like it could end is if I apologized for my kids, apologized for myself and promised to lecture the kids on being nice to her.

oh my.    oh my.   Yes you are 100% correct this was not good.    by picking up this gauntlet you reinforced her certainty that this is all about your kids.   and it is most certainty not at all about your kids.   I would really strongly suggest you start to draw boundaries around discussing your kids with her.   

again Margalis Fjelstad.    she said: "pwBPD see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.   they believe  that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change".

how are you feeling about this today?    any ideas of how you can start to bring this back more to a baseline situation?   

'ducks

[EZEarache]

one of my favorite lines from this website is "you need to be emotionally quite strong to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it".    makes so much sense.    what can you do to build or rebuild your emotional strength?    if you had to tell someone else how to build emotional strength how would you describe it?

I think this deserves to be its own topic.

[babyducks]

How are you doing Dad50?   

[Dad50]

Thanks for checking in Babyducks. The last 5 days I have been at my partners house. I am kind of expected to stay there while my kids are at their mom's. It's not really super safe to post while I am at her house, hence my fie days away.

The time was okay, with no major blow ups. It feels like the strategies of not being reactive are helpful, but I wonder if this is what we are relegated to. A one sided relationship where it is dangerous to offer or even have an opinion, or to ask for things we need. It seems like some of the strategies are "working",  but seems lonely even in the relationship, as there is no real back and forth.

The other downside is now that I am less of a target, and engaging less, my partner is targeting her daughter more. It is hard to sit by and watch.

[babyducks]

The time was okay, with no major blow ups. It feels like the strategies of not being reactive are helpful, but I wonder if this is what we are relegated to. A one sided relationship where it is dangerous to offer or even have an opinion, or to ask for things we need. It seems like some of the strategies are "working",  but seems lonely even in the relationship, as there is no real back and forth.

it's a legit question.   one that has gone through all of our minds at one point.    in the LESSONS section here is this clip about having realistic expectations:

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

my experience was that I really got hooked on that early idealization phase.    I really enjoyed being 'the most wonderful person in the world'...   and when that went away I grieved it.    I thought I was having this special relationship and instead I found a lot of it was smoke and mirrors.    my Ex didn't want to be with me all the time because I was so wonderful.   she wanted to be with me all the time because she was afraid of being alone.     she mirrored me so well in the beginning I thought we had a tremendous amount in common, but as time passed I found that she was more of a chameleon who adopted the traits of the people around her.     and as the serious nature of her mental illness became more and more evident I had some real soul searching to do.    I had to sit down with me and really work to figure out what I would tolerate.   what I would accept.   where my boundaries were.     and what role was I playing. 

The other downside is now that I am less of a target, and engaging less, my partner is targeting her daughter more. It is hard to sit by and watch.

oh my.    how is her daughter coping with this?     are you able to help mitigate at all?

'ducks