Reasons I'm Still Here (and wondering if I should be)

[Bertha88]

I'd like to discuss some of the reasons I'm still in this 25-year marriage with a person who has consistently abused me emotionally and I believe is uBPD.   I'd like to know if others can relate to some of my reasons.

Our children have just reached adulthood and I've been working from home for 15 months.  These may be factors which are prompting this intense review on my part, this desire for an honest appraisal of my choices/my life.  Thus, right now, I'm in this "fact-finding" mode, kind of betwixt-and-between, knowing I can survive without him, but wondering (knowing?) I'm part of the problem because I let him do this stuff to me--yet not at all sure there is a viable alternative to leaving.  For example, if I change my behavior (using boundaries, validation, etc.), would he eventually be able to adapt?  And can I survive the initial backlash?  I do know this:  I don't want what's happening now to be perpetuated for the rest of my life.  And the change begins with me, I know that also.

I have called him out on emotional abuse (years ago:  he laughed and denied).  I've (perhaps mistakenly) told him I think he has BPD (he denies and says I'll do anything that "fits my narrative"). It grates on me when he uses words like that because they ring hollow to me given his level of emotional maturity.  I've called the police (1x) and sent him to jail: he pushed me down and before I knew it, "911."  That was pretty much the beginning and the end of anything physical, but he claimed I "stripped his [abusive] authority" with our children that night.  I know better.  I did the right thing.

I don't know where my marriage is going, but my staying has been a combination of these things:
*Fear
*"What will 'they' think?"
*"I promised"
*"He can't help it"
"Aren't I great that I can put up with all this?"

... and also that (this one JUST hit me) the stakes likely seem much higher because I married into a very conservative Christian culture in which divorce is highly discouraged and viewed as a complete devastation... at least that is how I perceive the "stakes," as in, the impact on his extended family, people in our church & community, etc.--the "they" in "What will THEY think?"  The whole prospect of divorcing is terrifying to me... and not because I'm without income (I have a good job), nor am I incapable of taking care of myself.  It's more the failure aspect, the hurt, etc.

Another thing is that I think I'm an emotional caretaker by nature (a topic I need to read up on, but sounds on point), and it KILLS me to hurt someone--even though, if I'm honest, I'm faking my "good wife" role (he knows better, I'm hurting him plenty anyway) and actually feeling hostile toward him about 98% of the time.  I was always the person who took the "little guy" under her wing.  I'm genuinely empathetic and caring, and I got the message that that's how I prove I'm a "good" person.  So it's messy.

One more thing.  Given all this, and my self-awareness as a caretaker who shouldn't have allowed what I did but didn't have the tools to do better (still don't?  God help me!)...  Is it even fair to pull the plug at this point?  It feels on my better days like I ought to try, really try, to redefine things.  But then he walks in the door, and all bets are off.

Can anyone out there relate to any of this?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

Another thing is that I think I'm an emotional caretaker by nature (a topic I need to read up on, but sounds on point), and it KILLS me to hurt someone

it sounds, to me, like you are reaching for the grey areas when it comes to what emotionally leading (and caretaking) a "bpd relationship" is all about. good. its important.

first, its vital that any physical abuse has ended for now. its very difficult to make progress on any other front without that.

its also important to acknowledge the change begins with you. there is zero blame toward you for abuse, let alone excuse for it. separately, recognizing that change starts with you, and recognizing the ways the two of you individually and as a unit handle conflict, is vital. if you havent already, id grab a copy of the high conflict couple. yes, changing your responses can make anywhere from a little bit of difference, to "good enough", to enormous; it depends on your relationship, it depends on your partner.

if I change my behavior (using boundaries, validation, etc.)

if its one thing that i could impress upon anyone on this board, its that while our very difficult loved ones tend to need a bigger dose of validation than others, you cannot use validation to cure anything, and it may be more helpful to think more in terms of "dont be invalidating" than "validate", in that regard. think more in terms of building a home (relationship environment) that considers fire prevention, rather than running around putting out fires. learn how and when to validate, and in general, dont be invalidating; do not expect to find magic words to regulate his emotions.

Is it even fair to pull the plug at this point?

while its both a hard and very personal decision, it is more than fair, and the notion that you havent done enough should not rule your decision; what you can do differently (if anything, and if you are not just willing to try but committed to it) should be part of your consideration. loving someone with bpd traits is not easy. it very likely never will be. that doesnt mean it cant improve, but you should foremost consider how much it can, what your limits, as well as what your limitations, and your partners limitations are, and what that would look like, if possible, in your own relationship.

[formflier]

I want to second what once removed said about anything you chose at this point is "more than fair".

My hope and prayer for you is that we can guide you to a point where you have thought through the different angles and possibilities and you choose a path based on what you believe is best for you and your life.

BPD is hard.  BPD behaviors in conservative Christian circles can often be "swept under the rug" by "forgiveness" and perhaps teaching that says you can't bring up "forgiven issues".

Those teachings often obfuscate what is obviously a "pattern of behavior"

Full disclosure:  I'm conservative southern Baptist type of protestant.  Learning how to balance my beliefs, the church and BPD has been...entertaining and interesting (how is that for being polite?)

I say this so if you are interested in discussing how your faith/church plays into this (in positive and negative ways) that's allowed on these boards but we don't "push" it and if some threads get "deep in the weeds" we may title them "Christian Discussion". 

No pressure..just letting you know it's available.

Have you done any pastoral counseling?  Joint and/or individual?  How did that go?

Any other joint or individual counseling?

We can walk with you on this journey!

Best,

FF

[Bertha88]

Hello formflier and once removed,

I just want to say, please don't interpret my silence as indifference to your responses.  It means so much to me to hear from you, and I appreciate what you both said so very much.

Life has been a bit busy (actually, a bit more peaceful since my last post) so I haven't responded.  Also, I keep my activity on this board private (secret) from my uBPDh:  is that unusual?

So, I plan to reflect on your posts and update y'all.  You're the best.  Keep it coming.

Living with a BPD partner is so difficult, yes.  And -- big picture -- I am still in the process of discernment of these sorts of things:  1) What can I change in my behavior? -- experimenting w/this and wondering if I've seen "flickers" of change in the right direction, or if it's just wishful thinking (e.g., hubby hears me comment on a TV show and says something like, "You don't need to comment on everything," -- in front of our 19-year old son, who is on to him, as we all are:  in the past I may have stayed silent, avoiding conflict, but secretly deeply resenting him, but this time I said, "I'm allowed to state my opinion."  Victory!);  2) CAN I stand living with someone who becomes exercised about leftover pasta not being consumed, for the last few [precious] decades of my life?  The jury is out on that one; and  3) Practical, financial matters such as new cars, remodels, long-term care insurance, etc.:  make the best decision I can, share it, and -- depending on the issue -- sometimes just "put my hands to my sides," recognize I AM a very fearful personality, and just "go with it" in faith that my world won't explode, after all.  The remodel is a big example of this.  Yeah, it's a ton of money, but there are practical and intangible benefits to doing it, we'll recoup some of it, and it doesn't mean I have to accept abuse in my marriage.  Yeah, I may be "deeper in" financially, but I couldn't "de-couple" this remodel from my angst over continuing in the marriage, so just put my hands down to my sides and said, "OK [higher power], I'm going with this...   I ain't got all the answers but I know I'll be OK and I'll take it as it comes."  So some relief there.

There.  I posted after all.  But I still want to comment/follow-up on your most excellent previous stuff!  Just have things to do before uBPDh comes home (like -- ugh! -- make a decision about Long Term Care, whether to continue with the jacked-up premiums they're giving us:  I say yes, he says no, but he is impulsive and risky in his behaviors, where I'm exceptionally prudent and conservative.)

Cheers.

P.S.  OK.  Commenting from memory, anyway--I can't resist!  ff: how interesting that you're Southern Baptist.  We sure can talk about this more.  I would love to.  I married into a conservative Lutheran synod (protestant; they follow the Bible; they don't ordain women; etc.), and it's ALWAYS been a struggle for this hippie chick.  But when I met my uBPDh I was already into my Christian journey. (I say that lightly; the profanity is flying these days, because I'm trying to shed the repressive aspects of my life without losing my faith in the One about whom CHRISTianity is.)  And I know I was attracted to him in part for the noble character traits of his (e.g., honesty and commitment as core values), and his family of origin, for his work ethic, etc.  Not to mention he was a lot of fun (we partied pretty hard before AA), very sexy and romantic, etc.  And he was ambitious.  And articulate.  And attractive.  The problem was, I didn't know he had grown up in such emotional toxicity and how devastating it would be for us in relating and in growing a family.

once removed:  I was so thrilled to hear back from you, you've always nailed it for me and were the 1st person to respond to me as a newbie on this board.  Funny thing, the 19-year old sweetheart "baby" of ours had given me Fruzetti's "High Conflict Couple" for Mother's Day, along with "The Essential Guide" by Randi K, and I've been devouring them.  Only into the early chapters of Fruzetti, read the Guide cover-to-cover; but trying to follow the Fruzetti advice to put into practice what I'm reading.  First task:  OBSERVE him, try to resist JUDGING him.  b/c judgment IS rampant in this marriage, both ways.  After all, a conservative midwestern Lutheran (his family is in DEEP, conspiracy theories etc. notwithstanding, so COVID and 2020 election have been hellish) married a southern faculty brat-turned Christian adult who can't seem to shake (and doesn't want to!) her liberal roots.  But I've turned out to be pretty moderate, at least when I'm not too p***ed off at all the extreme right-wing rhetoric I hear from my uBPDh and his parents (who, of course, are in tight w/ him, and consequently, US... a story for another day!).  So I judge him, too.  I see that.  So hard.  I don't recommend pairing up with someone with such different POVs!  But honestly, I couldn't see it at age 34 when we married and it was me, my amoeba-like sense of self, that allowed it.  Still trying to discern who I am at nearly 60!

[Bertha88]

A bit more, after re-reading both of your prior posts.

ff:  Yeah, for sure, "forgiveness" is bandied about by uBPDh and others WITHOUT, of course, acknowledging the elephant in the room, BPD.  End result:  Bertha88 gets to feel worse, wonder why she can't pull it off; but also knows forgiveness in the midst of a full-on daily assault of BPD behaviors isn't a reasonable "cure."  It's sort of like expecting a Confederate soldier to heal his wounds at Gettysburg during an ongoing volley of fire.  I mean, OK, "70 times 7," but also JC turned over the money-changers' tables.  So, He could get mad, and so can I.  He preached justice, truth, and love, which doesn't equal what I've been doing as a complicit partner in this abusive relationship.  I think He's applauding when I stand up for myself in a way that's healthy, because (and perhaps He gets the credit for this?  answer to prayer?) I now see (EPIPHANY!) that it's NOT LOVING to allow my uBPDh to abuse me emotionally!  Yay!

We've tried a lot of counseling.  To me, it hasn't "failed."  It's been more like, damage control and support--needed.  The closest folks to healing us were a lay couple with a passion for [Christian] marriage counseling.  Even though I don't agree with all of their views, they are sincere, devout followers of Jesus Christ, so have a great deal on the ball as far as loving others.  That counseling got us closer than anything to healing, but even that couldn't cross the chasm of BPD, which was mentioned by me but not given credence b/c the counselors wanted to couch everything in spiritual terms--so the husband in the counseling team discounts secular diagnoses, specifically, as appropriate at times but definitely overused; he may be right, but it wasn't particularly helpful to me at the time.  I've reached out to them since and found them to be allies, saying things like, "We didn't realize it was that bad... That's definitely abuse... We were disappointed in [uBPDh] when he responded to questions on Family of Origin in glowing terms [they know better]..."  And the wife of counseling couple got me to my current counselor, who, although herself a pastor's wife, is reasonably hip and AFFIRMS my suspicions about BPD while encouraging me to work with her on myself, while maintaining some neutrality on the issue of dissolving the marriage:  she is realistic and supportive, but not prescriptive.  So I'm going with her, for now.  She also has professional knowledge of BPD, which helps a lot.

As far as counseling with pastors in our church, there is one I would consider, but I don't fully trust the ordained men of our church.  I'm suspicious because of the conservatism and rigidity of the synod to which they've given their vows/lives.  And part of this is because I've been living in this religious culture for 25 years, so I have street cred to be suspicious.  That said, they are good people and this one guy is kinda fringe for the church, and he's JUST what we need.  So, maybe. The other thing about ME counseling privately with a pastor is the discomfort about opening up to a man, one-on-one.  Honestly, it seems a bit risky, which is sort of laughable b/c it's not like I'm the hottest 59-year old female on that planet--but when getting very vulnerable emotionally, things can happen.  So I'm cautious about that as well!

To both of you, I want to say that I so appreciated the resounding answer to my question on FAIRNESS, that it's MORE THAN FAIR for me to decide what's right for me--esp. (my thought) in light of how much I've put into this marriage.  So, thank you for that affirmation!

[Bertha88]

it sounds, to me, like you are reaching for the grey areas when it comes to what emotionally leading (and caretaking) a "bpd relationship" is all about. good. its important.

first, its vital that any physical abuse has ended for now. its very difficult to make progress on any other front without that.  

once removed:

Curious what you mean by "reaching for the grey areas."  You've always been so supportive of me in terms of making me feel like my valiant efforts are just that, "valiant" and worthwhile, even noble.  I must say, I have moments when I feel like a doggone fool who should pack her bags and exit ASAP.  But then I go back to wondering... Time will tell.  But, please clarify the "grey area" of which you speak--unless I just did!  Ha!

Agree:  Change begins with me.  I think kids being grown has a lot to do with my being able to even embrace this.  Before, I was just too darn busy, and yes, was putting out fires, constantly.

On "good enough," my dear, lifelong friend, took me to task (Ouch!) recently when I told her I'd settle for a 30% improvement in our relationship.  Maybe she's right, as she reminded me that this is the man I sent to JAIL years ago for pushing me (no physical violence today, to your question on that).  She said:  "I just want to see you happy."  No question, I would be happier with a person w/o BPD or with a maturity level commensurate with mine, and with his age (55).  But alas, that's not what I have.  So, for me, it continues to be a process of discernment, hopefully increasingly divorced from notions that are ego-driven for me ("Look at what I can tolerate!... Ain't I grand?"), to notions of rendering the greatest dignity to the individuals involved (which includes ME!) and to the principles I hold dear.

To your points on validation as a tool but certainly not a cure, thank you.  I think the Fruzetti notion of observance vs. judgment goes along with not being invalidating, do you agree?  As far as "magic words to help regulate his emotions," yeah, definitely been guilty of seeking those.  I've found myself saying a few times lately, "It's OK..." like trying to reassure him, as you would a little child frightened at an amusement park.  Sometimes I am bowled over by his thinking, how tormented he must be inside.  And it makes me so ANGRY at his parents for making him this way... (I presume).

Case in point.  The pasta saga.  He cooks.  He loves to cook.  Big portions.  Like an Army mess cook.  Has been told, it's too much.  Doesn't listen.  Sound familiar?  Do any of our BPDs "listen?"  So, large portion left which HE CREATED.  His comment (emotional dysregulation):  "That needs to be thrown out.  That's too bad.  It wasn't served (transfer of responsibility to me), and now it's rotten."  I respond, sniffing it:  "No, it's fine, we don't need to throw it out.  You used all those artisan cheeses in it!"  "Well, if you served it, it wouldn't go bad.  You should make [19-year old son] eat it."  So, I go in the house and say [son is sitting right there at kitchen counter]:  "Hey, Jeremy, would you eat some of this pasta?"  "Nah, that's OK... I don't really like it."  End of conversation.  Except the BPD's last word, which is kinda stunning, though normal type of communication/thinking from him.

He turns to me, within our son's earshot, and says:  "Wrong approach."  Just a declarative, corrective statement.  If I had a nickel for all those I've received in 25 years, I'd be a rich woman!

Wow, that's packed.  For one, it implies there is a "Right" approach about eating pasta.  There you have my entire suspicion of the rigid Christian upbringing he has--German immigrants... tons of "rules."  I mean, TONS.

So, our son says, "You mean, Dad, there's a 'right' approach to making someone eat what they don't want?"  This is the same boy who encourages me to "stand up to him!" even though there is love between them.  (I love our kids!)

This is, of course, interpreted as "disrespectful" by my uBPDh, who mutters something like, "It's time for you to move out!"  Typically, I will get pulled aside later by uBPDh with an emotional dump starting with words like:  "It really bothers me when..." and ending up with blame assigned to me for not "supporting" him and demanding our kids "respect" him, etc.  Working on how to respond to those things.  When they were little, I didn't redirect him to them b/c he was too volatile and emotionally damaging and I wanted to protect the kids by running interference, i.e., absorbing his emotional s**t.  Now, I think it's probably OK to say:  "Take that up with them."

Anyway, I mention this b/c I think the "Wrong Approach" comment says so much.  And that is the reason I have so much angst about staying with someone who thinks that way, and may never change. Probably (as you said) no "magic words" can help him regulate his emotions, but I CAN BETTER REGULATE MINE.  Right?  And when I'm really sad/mad/hurt/bleeding emotionally, I need to constantly remind myself that I HAVE OPTIONS, that I don't have to live this way.  But some pushback, done mindfully and carefully, is needed in this relationship, agree?

Thanks again for all your support, always.

[lenfan]

Fear
*"What will 'they' think?"
*"I promised"
*"He can't help it"
"Aren't I great that I can put up with all this?"

 "conservative Christian"

For me, All of the above. (Catholic variety on the latter, but seems to be a pretty similar attitude.)

Let me add . . .

" 25 years into this already, what the heck, might as well see it through"

"Too old to meet anybody any  better, and don't want to spend old age alone."

"Even adult children are collateral damage in divorce."

"Leaving will just create more drama and turmoil, and besides our lives are so entwined after
25 years, complete no contact would be impossible"

"They're not so bad, and can really be very nice . . . sometimes."

Many people would think those aren't very good reasons, but accepting that life is no fairy tail to begin with, if they're your reasons, then they're you're  reasons, and who is anyone to judge you harshly for it, including yourself, one way or the other?  

  

[formflier]

There is lots to work with in this thread.  While I consider the rest of it, one thing really jumped out at me.

Please consider the thread below.

Case in point.  The pasta saga.  He cooks.  He loves to cook.  Big portions.  Like an Army mess cook.  Has been told, it's too much.  Doesn't listen.  Sound familiar?  Do any of our BPDs "listen?"  So, large portion left which HE CREATED.  His comment (emotional dysregulation):  "That needs to be thrown out.  That's too bad.  It wasn't served (transfer of responsibility to me), and now it's rotten."  I respond, sniffing it:  "No, it's fine, we don't need to throw it out.  You used all those artisan cheeses in it!"  "Well, if you served it, it wouldn't go bad.  You should make [19-year old son] eat it."  So, I go in the house and say [son is sitting right there at kitchen counter]:  "Hey, Jeremy, would you eat some of this pasta?"  "Nah, that's OK... I don't really like it."  End of conversation.  Except the BPD's last word, which is kinda stunning, though normal type of communication/thinking from him.

 

Wow, that's packed.  For one, it implies there is a "Right" approach about eating pasta.  There you have my entire suspicion of the rigid Christian upbringing he has--German immigrants... tons of "rules."  I mean, TONS.
 

Is it accurate to say that BOTH of you have "rules" about the "right" way to do/eat/prepare/throw out food?  And BOTH of you are willing to emphatically advocate for your position!  Right...?  Do you see that point of view?

I bring this up because you seem to want a change for the better and I will assure you that change is possible and it's unlikely to "come from him".

If you change it will "force" him to change.

So..with this in mind, how could you have gone about the pasta issue differently?

Looking forward to getting to know you!

Best,

FF

[Bertha88]

Is it accurate to say that BOTH of you have "rules" about the "right" way to do/eat/prepare/throw out food?  And BOTH of you are willing to emphatically advocate for your position!  Right...?  Do you see that point of view?

I bring this up because you seem to want a change for the better and I will assure you that change is possible and it's unlikely to "come from him".

If you change it will "force" him to change.

So..with this in mind, how could you have gone about the pasta issue differently?

Owwww, you got me, ff.  YES!, you are right.  I have strong ideas as well.  ("Waste not, want not," etc.)

So... how else could I have gone about it?  "Whatever you think is OK with me..."  b/c after all, it's just a bowl of noodles, I didn't make it, etc.

But I was reacting to the "it didn't get served" phrase, which triggers my "bad wife/mom" feelings.  It's almost funny how he uses phrases like that which belie this set of "rules":  1) It's YOUR job to feed the family [like my mom did]. 2) This SHOULD have been dealt with.  So, rampant gender stereotypes and "shoulds."

But what do I do?  I take it on.  Even with him out of the picture, I'm a mix of traditional and non-traditional.  I DO feel responsible to "feed" people (to a point, and esp. kids) and to take care of the home (to a point) and to take care of those around me.  And I'm right there, at the ready, to take on the guilt and shame he's so used to dishing out.

So perhaps another way I could've reacted is to quietly tell myself:  "That's his issue, not yours... You are not responsible for feeding him, etc... and CERTAINLY not responsible for leftovers in the 'fridge... and not responsible for his emotional dysregulation."

I feel like these are pretty lame answers.  Got some better ideas for me?

[Bertha88]

Many people would think those aren't very good reasons, but accepting that life is no fairy tail to begin with, if they're your reasons, then they're you're  reasons, and who is anyone to judge you harshly for it, including yourself, one way or the other?  

  

Dear lenfan,

Thank you for your post.  At first I wondered what you would say, as you're new to me.  But as I read, my heart went out to you.  I also feel gratitude that you've made me feel like I'm not alone in this struggle.

When my dear girlfriend laid it out to me [that I should leave], I hung up the phone and sobbed.  I just hung up with our son (24), who, having had the worst of the uBPDh run-off during his developmental years, unambiguously gives me the same advice.  He's exasperated with me for staying.

Yet there's this little flicker in the back of my mind that says this isn't the time, it's not the right thing (at least not yet), and there's much work to be done [by me, on me!].

Keep the faith.  So glad you shared.

[formflier]

So... how else could I have gone about it? 

Validating questions could work!


There is lots of trial and error to this, but as a general rule..getting into "yes/no"/"right/wrong" is not a productive path.  Much better to soothe or "validate" feelings.

Can I encourage you to read the article and then based on what you learn..suggest a few responses? 

Best,

FF

[once removed]

But, please clarify the "grey area" of which you speak

the fine lines between acknowledging another persons needs, acknowledging that this is a kind of "special needs" relationship, being pragmatic but not from a place of enabling/codependency, that sort of thing. im still a big believer in things like being the bigger person, like going out of my way to consider someone elses feelings and whether or not i would hurt them. any of those things may be noble, or may be an unhealthy preoccupation akin to walking on eggshells. its hard to have that sort of insight into ourselves, and its hard, but necessary, to stay grounded in our relationships.

To your points on validation as a tool but certainly not a cure, thank you.  I think the Fruzetti notion of observance vs. judgment goes along with not being invalidating, do you agree?  

im not familiar with much of fruzettis work, but i know you really cant go wrong with it.

Case in point.  The pasta saga.  He cooks.  He loves to cook.  Big portions.  Like an Army mess cook.  Has been told, it's too much.  Doesn't listen.  Sound familiar?  Do any of our BPDs "listen?"  So, large portion left which HE CREATED.  His comment (emotional dysregulation):  "That needs to be thrown out.  That's too bad.  It wasn't served (transfer of responsibility to me), and now it's rotten."  I respond, sniffing it:  "No, it's fine, we don't need to throw it out.  You used all those artisan cheeses in it!"  "Well, if you served it, it wouldn't go bad.  You should make [19-year old son] eat it."  So, I go in the house and say [son is sitting right there at kitchen counter]:  "Hey, Jeremy, would you eat some of this pasta?"  "Nah, that's OK... I don't really like it."  End of conversation.  Except the BPD's last word, which is kinda stunning, though normal type of communication/thinking from him.

i dont mean to minimize your experience when i say this is really as typical as any married couple might have. at the end of the day, it is two people trying to be right about some pasta.

This is, of course, interpreted as "disrespectful" by my uBPDh, who mutters something like, "It's time for you to move out!"  Typically, I will get pulled aside later by uBPDh with an emotional dump starting with words like:  "It really bothers me when..." and ending up with blame assigned to me for not "supporting" him and demanding our kids "respect" him, etc.  Working on how to respond to those things.  When they were little, I didn't redirect him to them b/c he was too volatile and emotionally damaging and I wanted to protect the kids by running interference, i.e., absorbing his emotional s**t.  Now, I think it's probably OK to say:  "Take that up with them."

kids/teens are, inevitably, exposed to, even a part of, conflict the parents are having. it is generally where we learn our predilection on the karpman drama triangle.

i would not be quick to dismiss "it really bothers me when...". its cooperative, and pretty unloaded, and you dont often get such clear communication from such a difficult person. you can listen to it, you can work with it. you dont have to agree with it. but knowing clearly where hes coming from is great.

to ask the child if hed eat some of the pasta pulls him into it. at that point, hes just about forced to take sides in the conflict. it sounds like he tends to side with you. understandably so, my dad could be a jerk at times, and i tended to side with my mom myself. but then your husband feels attacked and/or ganged up on. he lashes out at the boy. he brings it up to you. you feel blamed, and dont really see it the same way. the two of you either argue about it, or you suggest that he take it up with the boy (wise in plenty of cases, depending). the conflict isnt resolved, the resentments remain, and around and around it goes.

So... how else could I have gone about it?  "Whatever you think is OK with me..."  b/c after all, it's just a bowl of noodles, I didn't make it, etc.

But I was reacting to the "it didn't get served" phrase, which triggers my "bad wife/mom" feelings.  It's almost funny how he uses phrases like that which belie this set of "rules":  1) It's YOUR job to feed the family [like my mom did]. 2) This SHOULD have been dealt with.  So, rampant gender stereotypes and "shoulds."

when a loved one with bpd traits is upset, feels slighted, whatever, its a pretty common tendency to say some stuff thats gonna tend to get under your skin, push your buttons. sometimes it may even be intentional. this sort of thing is really why "dont JADE" was written. its about finding what hooks us into circular conflict.

i probably would have reacted exactly as you did. with the benefit of not being involved, yeah, he says he wants to throw it out, let him throw it out.

[formflier]

i dont mean to minimize your experience when i say this is really as typical as any married couple might have. at the end of the day, it is two people trying to be right about some pasta.

Once Removed makes a massive point here. 

All humans have various levels of "I need to be right..".  Those levels vary depending on lots of things, but stress, emotional upset and other factors can increase the need and also conflate that need with other issues.

So..if he is feeling bad about the relationship in general, it's entirely possible he could "need" to be right in order to feel better about himself in other places (even if he can't articulate this process).

So...I would encourage you to take these moments NOT as a time to get into "right and wrong"...instead put on your "emotional mechanic/investigator" hat and "peek under the hood" and see what might be going on.

Circling back to "validating questions"... a wonderful way to rummage around under there with small chance of causing much upset.

Best,

FF