When forgiveness fails

[etown]

It's father's day and I keep reading posts on social media from people who have forgiven and rebuilt their relationships with their fathers. But I'm in a place where I spent 20 years bending over backwards to build a relationship with the man who stepped out of my life when I was a child, and it feels like we keep running into the same problems over and over. As I've said before, he's not BPD--I suspect he might be NPD.

I really want to find a way to heal from this, but he makes it so hard. He never listens to me--only talks about himself. He starts arguments about silly things. When I try to talk about my feelings, his first and only urge is to talk me out of them. I've spent thousands of dollars travelling to the city where he lives over the years and he refuses to set foot in the city where I live. Two years ago, on my birthday after a fight, he sent me an email chastising me for not respecting him. Not respecting HIM. He's never apologized or walked it back. He just started calling and expecting me to listen to him ramble about his life, about his trips abroad or his cabin. He's full of unchecked jealousy and actively undermines any attempt I make to talk about my professional life. When I told him about my efforts to heal from my disastrous relationship with my BPD mother (which he never did a single thing to support me through), he told me the work I was doing sounded silly and made a joke about new age nonsense.

How do you have a relationship with someone who is so uninterested in you as a person? What do I owe this man who didn't contribute to my life financially or emotionally? Should I work harder to forgive him, give up on him ever actually acknowledging the harm he did to me? Am I being childish? Have I failed at forgiveness?

[Nopuppets]

Hello etown.  I’m not a professional, but you are certainly not childish at all!  As many have mentioned on the message board before, holidays can be especially tough.  I’m fairly new to coming to terms with trying to cope with my uBPD mother.  This whole process is really hard.  Sometimes I feel like I’m making progress and then other times she will do something, or I will anticipate something, and it hits me like a ton of bricks.  In these moments, like today, my best suggestion is to show yourself some grace and self care.  There are many members in this group that have great advice.  You aren’t alone!  I’ve found it helpful to read through the various educational tools on the website.  For me personally, reading up on FOG( fear, obligation, guilt) was a big one.  That’s why I think it’s so important to be ok with taking sometime for yourself and not feeling bad about your father or someone else might think.  Your needs matter too.  I’ve also found it helpful to have this group as a resource as well as a few close friends, other family members that are understanding.  I hope this will help some ❤️

[etown]

Thank you for your reply and for reminding me of that great resource. I've definitely used these tactics with some success outside my family. With my dad, I feel like no amount of constructive responses will move things into a more productive space. He starts on the defensive and gets aggressive so quickly. Or he starts talking about me when I was a toddler, which is like tripping an emotional switch and he knows it. Honestly, I feel like I've been working my whole life to try to figure out how to talk to him and it just keeps failing.

Most recently, it's around the death of my grandmother late last year. He refuses to hold any kind of ceremony because he thinks online memorials are "phoney." When I told him without recrimination that it makes me sad to have gone 6 months without any way of formally grieving her, he spirals into explanations and these defensive postures about how everyone else in the family agrees with him etc etc. He wants me to call him, but I can't talk to him on the phone right now.

I just feel so at a loss and like I'll never get this right.

[pursuingJoy]

I just feel so at a loss and like I'll never get this right.

You are, etown! You've listed some amazing progress here.

My BPD MIL has tripped the same emotional toddler switch on my husband. My husband can't see it yet. You DO, and I'm proud of you. I think that's just amazing.

Most recently, it's around the death of my grandmother late last year. He refuses to hold any kind of ceremony because he thinks online memorials are "phoney." When I told him without recrimination that it makes me sad to have gone 6 months without any way of formally grieving her, he spirals into explanations and these defensive postures about how everyone else in the family agrees with him etc etc. He wants me to call him, but I can't talk to him on the phone right now.

Can we take a moment to celebrate the way you spoke up without recrimination?   I'm so proud of you etown. No need to call him, he likely wants reassurance. You said what you needed to say.

What if the work is not yet to move the relationship to a more productive place, but to simply, and first, stay true to your values and what you're learning? What if this is more about becoming than it is about your relationship with your father?

  

[Harri]

What if the work is not yet to move the relationship to a more productive place, but to simply, and first, stay true to your values and what you're learning? What if this is more about becoming than it is about your relationship with your father?

Excellent questions!

I went through the same with my family.  Trying to be heard, to be seen, etc.  It was only when I turned my focus on me that things began to get better.  I needed to stop trying to get my parents to meet my needs; they were incapable of doing so in so many ways.

I really want to find a way to heal from this, but he makes it so hard. He never listens to me--only talks about himself.

Stop trying to get him to hear you.   

How do you have a relationship with someone who is so uninterested in you as a person? What do I owe this man who didn't contribute to my life financially or emotionally? Should I work harder to forgive him, give up on him ever actually acknowledging the harm he did to me? Am I being childish? Have I failed at forgiveness?

You can have a limited relationship if you choose, one where you share no personal info other than small things and keep things surface.  The fact is you will probably never have a deep and meaningful relationship with your dad.

As for forgiveness, I think we all need to define what forgiveness is for us individually.  My definition of forgiveness does not include trying to pay back some perceived debt (you own him nothing) nor getting them to pay back what I thought they owed me, nor is it contingent on my parents admitting to the harm they did (would never happen anyway).  Forgiveness started with me changing my behaviors (stop trying to be seen and heard for ex) and accepting my parents would never meet my needs.  It meant putting a limit on my behavior and expectations which helped me let go of the need to get through to them.  Accepting them for who they were, flaws and all did not come over night and I am not even done with the process and they died in 2007 (mom) and 2009 (dad) :P

So lets dig in and figure out what forgiveness means to you.  You may need to take a closer look at your definition and tweak it a bit.

Thoughts?

[beatricex]

etown,
Wellll, it's funny you mention this situation, because in my experience, every BPD'd person I know comes with a mate (sometimes it's just their sister or maybe it's a spouse) that's NPD.  I have not read anyone else's response yet, nor your replies if you made some.  I wanted to give my unfiltered response to your initial post, as we are in a similar situation.

My Mom is the BPD, my Dad is the NPD.

I am not going to say my father was a bad Dad.  In fact, he was my sane parent, I probably owe the fact I'm not completely screwed up to him.  That said, it's been tough having a relationship with him as an adult.  He also likes to equate "therapy" with some new age thinking, he calls it "getting a tune up" when my Mom has made him go to couple's counseling with him.  Me on the other hand?  Therapy absolutely positively saved my life.  No if and's or buts about that.

Why is it so hard for flying monkies to get us?  Well, because they have spent an entire lifetime aligning with, siding with, and agreeing with their BPD.  It's gotta be a tough habit to break.  I mean, what does he get from siding with me?  Reconciliation?  I get to take care of him when he's old?  ha ha  Well, I have 5 siblings and they're not complaining to him about Mom, so I guess I lose.  Possibly he loses too, cause I will not take care of him and my Mom.  Maybe if he outlives her, it's a possibility.

The problem is the Abuse Continues.  It's called abuse by proxy if it's just someone else in the family picking up where the BPD left off.

So, I am forced to disown my entire FOO.  Not just Mom, but Dad too and yes, my 5 siblings.

All I can say is it's hard, incredibly.  But, I respect myself enough to do it.

Dad and I don't have long conversations about how F&**'d up Mom is.  Why?  because I cherish my sanity, and that conversation goes no where.  If I want understanding, I come here or to other similar support groups.

hang in there, you are strong and you will figure this out
 
b

[etown]

Can we take a moment to celebrate the way you spoke up without recrimination?   I'm so proud of you etown. No need to call him, he likely wants reassurance. You said what you needed to say.

What if the work is not yet to move the relationship to a more productive place, but to simply, and first, stay true to your values and what you're learning? What if this is more about becoming than it is about your relationship with your father?

Thank you for this--you're so right! I have to keep reminding myself that the goal here is not to get him to see or acknowledge my progress, but to just feel better in my own life. In that sense, Harri, you are totally right too. He's never going to change and I need to accept that and decide how much I'm willing to maintain the relationship.

I think the thing I get tripped up on is the cultural expectation of what a child is supposed to do/be for their parents. It's hard when you're in a moment of hurt and anger to see all these stories online of people rising above it and coming to some kind of grace around everything. I think maybe I was also reliving a particular kind of trauma around being left out, and that hurt and compounded the grief I was already feeling about my grandmother's death.

My parents aren't together (haven't been for a long long time), but I also have an uncle who swoops in every time things get tense with my dad, and I was feeling kind of ganged up on. I don't have much of a relationship with my siblings, so there's also that.

I think all I can do for now is just keep saying what I need to say, when I need to say it. Stating my needs with clarity and without recriminations and having that be enough. He has no real power over me, and these games he plays to try to gain the upper hand are kind of sad, really.

[Mommydoc]

Etown, holidays are tough, and even though it was painful for you, your self reflection on your relationship with your father is positive as you have great self awareness, and you are asking the right questions.

How do you have a relationship with someone who is so uninterested in you as a person?

You don’t.  I can tell you want a relationship with him, which is totally human and normal, but you may have to let go of the “idealized” relationship you seek.  Only you can decide if something less than that idealized relationship is worth the personal cost to you and your values.  For me, I stay in my relationship with my uBPD family member, out of service to another family member and because we have shared trustee roles.  I will likely walk away in the future when those reasons no longer exist. 

What do I owe this man who didn't contribute to my life financially or emotionally?

Nothing. 

  Should I work harder to forgive him, give up on him ever actually acknowledging the harm he did to me?

You should give up on him acknowledging the harm he did to you. He doesn’t see it and likely won’t in the future. You certainly can’t make that acknowledgment a condition of forgiveness. You may benefit from forgiving him, not because he deserves it, but for your own health . Research has shown that the act of forgiveness lowers stress hormones and as a result can reap significant health benefits, lowering the risk of heart attack, improving cholesterol levels and sleep, and reducing pain, blood pressure, and levels of anxiety, depression and stress. If you forgive him, do it for you and not for him.

You are not being childish and you have not failed.  You are amazing. 

  I have to keep reminding myself that the goal here is not to get him to see or acknowledge my progress, but to just feel better in my own life.

Your focus is spot on.  We are all a work in progress in that regard, take it a day at a time. Take care.

[pursuingJoy]

Most people with BPD have figured out how to send in swooping delegates. 

I think the thing I get tripped up on is the cultural expectation of what a child is supposed to do/be for their parents.

This is an interesting concept to me. I do believe that some cultures value family and caring for aging parents more than others, but within all cultures, you'll find a range of what this actually means and looks like. I live in southern US where unhealthy codependence is called love for mama and respect for family. I believe BPD's capitalize on this masking. My H (raised by a BPD mother) often makes sweeping statements about how one 'should' take care of parents, like the way he defines care is a widely known, accepted, 'right' concept. What I've learned is that how he defines caring for parents is way less defined by culture than it is by his mom.

I also want to highlight that I agree with Mommydoc when they say you don't owe your father anything. I might go a step further to say even if he contributed to your life financially or emotionally, you don't owe him anything. I have 3 daughters, 16, 17 and 20. I raised them as a single mom for 9 years. I carried them, gave them life, fed them 3 times a day, made sure they had a good education, felt safe and secure and heard. I encouraged friendships, empowered them, surrounded them with good people. I've also hurt them, as all parents do in some way, shape or form. What I did was baseline parenthood. My daughters have the freedom to choose if they want a relationship with me. They owe me nothing.

Also agree with Mommydoc - your self-awareness is noted, and you are asking the right questions. I'm glad you're here.