Did you contribute to the toxicity?

[IntoTheWind]

I've never analyzed a relationship as much as I did with my ex girlfriend. I noticed several of my own behaviors that were a part of the problem and not just codependency. I've found things that I want to fix, I'm wondering if anyone else had these things in common with me?

• I'd argue with her to no end, I don't know why I couldn't stop myself, but once we started, it was so hard to stop, I'd just try over and over again to fix it and come to a reasonable resolution despite it obviously never happening
• I started to behave immaturely myself in response to her, and that would give her ammunition to do it again (permanently lowering the bar for what's acceptable)
• I said some pretty mean things out of frustration before our first breakup, and she took them to heart in a way no normal person would, I shouldn't have said those things regardless of how badly she'd take them - this I regret the most and she held it against me to no end, when she remembered them it was like she was reliving them and it felt SO BAD
• I'd bottle things up - due to walking on egg shells I'd always try and be the perfect boyfriend, so when I did get annoyed, there was about 3 months of little things she'd done that made me seem unnecessarily upset over something (ammunition for her to act like i'm crazy)
• Letting things slide all the time, instantly forgiving her - This one is quite difficult, as she'd say little things to me that were just insignificant enough for them not to be called out, but there'd be so many of them that they start to affect me - not sure what I could've done about that really, it's an interesting one (anyone else figured this out?)
• Not being able to stop and calm down before responding to something (escalating the situation, using careless wording)

[alterK]

Yes to all. ITW, I think you are to be congratulated for being willing to look at your mistakes and trying to learn from them. Not everyone can. It took me a long time just to begin to understand all this.

After years I've finally realized that I facilitated my W's BPD behavior, going along with it, giving in rather than dealing with her inevitable anger and accusations, arguing, and reacting with anger myself when I should have better understood what was going on.

My W is one who never forgets something bad. It doesn't apply just to me. She still sheds tears over a faun she saw a decade ago, standing by the side of the road after its mother had been hit by a car. She remembers every angry word or act of mine, and they are live issues for her years later. The good times we have had together, the good things I have done for her, the problems I've helped her with--all these seem to vanish from her mind. I do feel badly for her, that she is tormented in this way, and I feel badly for myself, that I allowed myself to speak or act on impulse, without thinking properly, that it took me years to understand what was going on, and how I myself became part of the problem.

My marriage is teetering on the brink, and I fear that it will dissolve if I cease doing the things that enable my W's BPD behaviors (all the things you've listed, and more). Even arguing is enabling. I am trying to save myself without being unkind to her, but it isn't easy to untangle the threads. I suspect it may be impossible to give myself a decent life without appearing to be a villain in her eyes. I wish you luck! With your insight you have a chance of doing better in the future.

[Sappho11]

Great thread!

I was beginning to reply to your list point-by-point when I realised that I've done every single one of them, down to the smallest detail. It's a splendid description of co-dependency.

My best friend, who's not neurotypical by any means but who has healthy social boundaries, kept telling me for months to just "walk away" from arguments. That was inconceivable to me, but I'm slowly beginning to realise that this is what healthy people do. They don't try to fix the unfixable, and get pulled into hours-long arguments where they always end up being the "bad guy", even when they've tried to make every effort to be accommodating. They just leave the raging/dysregulating person to themselves, and understand that other people have to sort out their own issues, that you can't sort out problems for someone else, least of all mental problems.

Most of all, that solving arguments requires TWO people, not just one accepting all the blame and doing all the work.

[Sappho11]

She still sheds tears over a faun she saw a decade ago, standing by the side of the road after its mother had been hit by a car. (...)

I did a doubletake there. What a brilliant typo! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun

[IntoTheWind]

My W is one who never forgets something bad. It doesn't apply just to me. She still sheds tears over a faun she saw a decade ago, standing by the side of the road after its mother had been hit by a car. She remembers every angry word or act of mine, and they are live issues for her years later. The good times we have had together, the good things I have done for her, the problems I've helped her with--all these seem to vanish from her mind. I do feel badly for her, that she is tormented in this way, and I feel badly for myself, that I allowed myself to speak or act on impulse, without thinking properly, that it took me years to understand what was going on, and how I myself became part of the problem.

Yeah, my ex would wake up crying to the thought of not catering a dinner properly years ago. She was reliving the moment, I could tell from her face and her eyes, that she wasn't 'here' anymore, it was concerning. When I saw her repeat some of the things I said to her, she'd managed to construct it in her memory in a way that made me _pure evil_. No matter how much I tried to contextualize that I was dealing with x, y, z issues and that those things were said at my lowest point, there was no recourse for resolving it - i wish I'd looked into this personality disorder earlier into the relationship, but she had me convinced she just had an anxiety disorder, which she probably did also have.

When I tried again with her, I used the fact she'd hold things against me as a way to be intentionally painted black by her, nothing mean, just a few home truths I know she wouldn't be able to introspect on ie. taking personal responsibility, being dramatic, playing the victim. I just can't handle being in a relationship with someone like that so I let it implode. It sucks having them hate you, but in a way, it's a kind way to escape them, and allow them to be able to live with themselves as the one who wasn't wrong. After she painted me completely black, I left her a note that I value her friendship, as a way of letting her know I don't hate her, and to also help myself live with it (of course she blocked me everywhere, as I am the evil villain).

[IntoTheWind]

My marriage is teetering on the brink, and I fear that it will dissolve if I cease doing the things that enable my W's BPD behaviors (all the things you've listed, and more). Even arguing is enabling. I am trying to save myself without being unkind to her, but it isn't easy to untangle the threads. I suspect it may be impossible to give myself a decent life without appearing to be a villain in her eyes. I wish you luck! With your insight you have a chance of doing better in the future.

In my limited experience, you're -always- going to be the villain, and you will -always- be painted black before the end. I accepted that before my 2nd attempt with my ex. During the second attempt, I was convinced that there was no "win condition" with her, so that helped me enjoy the pleasant times and keep a photographic memory of them before she was gone again. I now realize that there is a "win" with her, and that's to remain with her, and be miserable, lose all of my principles and remain validating her for the rest of my life - nothing is worth that to me!

[IntoTheWind]

They just leave the raging/dysregulating person to themselves, and understand that other people have to sort out their own issues, that you can't sort out problems for someone else, least of all mental problems.

My ex would literally tell me to just leave her alone during the arguments, and I'd be so annoyed by that, because I hated leaving things unresolved and to fester. In past relationships, it's always been very easy to just 'resolve' something simply by having a discussion, I was fixated on 'proving' this to her to no avail. Looking back, she actually gave me the best advice, and she knew herself that's the only possible way to fix it.

[Sappho11]

My ex would literally tell me to just leave her alone during the arguments, and I'd be so annoyed by that, because I hated leaving things unresolved and to fester. In past relationships, it's always been very easy to just 'resolve' something simply by having a discussion, I was fixated on 'proving' this to her to no avail. Looking back, she actually gave me the best advice, and she knew herself that's the only possible way to fix it.

The collective lesson that we can all learn from this is that there is a huge difference between constructive and destructive arguing.

Destructive: It's all your/my fault; it's you against me; I'm just trying to teach you some truth.

Constructive: It's us against the problem; we have different perspectives but can each take steps towards the other person; we're going to arrive at a shared truth together.

Of course, pwBPD/NPD are unable to take that step towards you, and only expect you to come to them. If your position is reasonable, and the other person makes zero effort to see your point of view, leave them to it. Arguing won't help in that situation.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey ITW,

Yes to all of the above.  Sure, I contributed to the toxicity, which really troubled me because we had two young children.

At the outset, I was a human doormat and let my Ex walk all over me.  In Phase Two, I fought fire with fire and gave as much or more back as she dished out, which only intensified the conflagration and brought out a lot of immature and disrespectful behavior on my part.  Towards the end, I practiced detachment, by refusing to engage and rising above the drama.  It worked, up to a point, but I no longer shared anything with my Ex for fear that she would use it against me.  We became strangers living under the same roof, which wasn't much of a marriage.  After that, our r/s was in its death throes.

Sad to say, I never really came up with an effective strategy to counteract the high conflict in our marriage.  At one point, my T asked me if I thought I had tried everything.  I responded, Yes!  She said, "I think so, too."  That was a turning point.

LuckyJim

[B53]

ITW,

No matter what happens in a relationship, it is never all just one person’s fault. I wrote in the red flag thread, that when he blamed all his failed relationships on the other person, it raised a red flag for me.I even said that it’s never one person ‘s fault and he insisted that it was.

My therapist told me that living with someone with a personality disorder changes a person. When I first met him, I was in a really good place. The first time he accused me a something that was bizarre, I used what I had learned as to how to solve conflicts in a positive way. I said to him, “what can I do to make this better?” He said “nothing “, another red flag. He said he was going to walk away and I told him to go ahead. That changed his response. He even said to me that he felt that I didn’t care if the relationship worked. I told him that I wasn’t going to stop someone from leaving, who didn’t want to be with me. What kept me in the relationship was that he always apologized and owned what he did. He was the first guy who ever admitted that what he did was passive aggressive. At the time, I thought he was a unicorn. He found a couples counselor. Unfortunately the guy had no idea what was going on and neither did we, at the time. Over time my self esteem and self worth was slowly being chipped away. By the end, the person I was, no longer existed. How I was responding would have worked great with a normal person, but this was not normal. At first I would JADE, then I started to withdraw. By the time I researched how to deal with it, I was too far gone myself to be able to do what I needed to. How do you validate someone, when you feel so invalidated yourself. In retrospect , I realized that due to my FOO, I would have never be able to take the abuse and act appropriately. It was too much like the abuse I went through as a child. I often think that my father could of had BPD. My mom was a narcissist and it is not unusual for the two PD to match up. My childhood was like a war zone.

I feel like if I had know early on, maybe things could have been different. At the end, I was doing everything wrong and I own that. I don’t want to ever live through that again. Some good days, some bad. I am slowly seeing the person that I use to be. It is going to take awhile, but it will happen.

B53

[alterK]

Whoops. Thanks S11. I never realized that "fawn" and "faun" were two different critters.

I don’t know whether anyone here remembers “Games People Play,” a book that was popular in the 1960’s and 70’s by psychologist Eric Berne. His idea was that there were standard, often dysfunctional and unhappy, patterns of interaction between people. He gave many of his games funny names like “Let’s you and him fight,” or “Ain’t it awful.” After a month or so on these forums I’m beginning to believe there’s a game frequently played here, “BPD’er and Enabler.”

What seems to be being discussed in this thread—and thanks to ITW for starting it—is a pattern of interaction, or interactions, between a BPD person and their partner. It doesn’t matter who starts it. But those of us who end up on this forum have found ourselves in patterns that continue, even reinforce, problems, rather than solving them. Things like arguing back, endlessly repeating arguments, giving in rather than face the intimidating prospect of actually dealing with an issue, and so on.

These are ways in which we naturally, or habitually, respond to BPD behavior, which reinforce or enable that behavior. They are things we do that we initially believe can solve problems, make things better, avoid fights. And they actually solve nothing, often make things worse. And as you say B53, over time we partners often sink deeper and deeper into these dysfunctional swamps.

Also agreeing with B53, it may often be that we who have become BPD partners come from families with BPD parents. I too heard my W recount how all her previous failed relationships were the other person’s fault. This should have been an instant red flag, but maybe in a goofy way it was a green light. “Ah! This is something familiar!” None of this is simple.

Hope I don’t sound too preachy. I’m really just working over things I’m trying to understand. What the books are trying to do is offer different ways of dealing with our SO’s, and what many of us are struggling with is trying to use those different ways. The crucial decisions have to do whether we can use different strategies effectively, whether they can improve the relationship, and whether it’s time to admit defeat, keep trying, or just sit back and accept things as they are.

I’ll add to one thing you’ve said, ITW. No matter what the outcome, you are likely to find yourself portrayed as a villain to your SO’s family and friends. This is a version of the game Berne calls “Courtroom.”

[IntoTheWind]

I’m beginning to believe there’s a game frequently played here, “BPD’er and Enabler.”

What seems to be being discussed in this thread—and thanks to ITW for starting it—is a pattern of interaction, or interactions, between a BPD person and their partner. It doesn’t matter who starts it. But those of us who end up on this forum have found ourselves in patterns that continue, even reinforce, problems, rather than solving them. Things like arguing back, endlessly repeating arguments, giving in rather than face the intimidating prospect of actually dealing with an issue, and so on.

These are ways in which we naturally, or habitually, respond to BPD behavior, which reinforce or enable that behavior. They are things we do that we initially believe can solve problems, make things better, avoid fights. And they actually solve nothing, often make things worse. And as you say B53, over time we partners often sink deeper and deeper into these dysfunctional swamps.

I really love this take on the situation. I definitely take personal responsibility for participating in the dysfunctional dance between us. I've gotten to the point where I can admit to myself that I am playing out scenarios where I either inevitably hurt, or hurt my partner in some way, and then recover with a hope that it'll get better that never does - the cycle pain & joy is addictive. I was very self aware of what was happening before the latest 'end' with my ex, that I accepted the part of the role of painting myself black to her. Now, even through we're broken up, it still feels like the game is "alive" in some way, we're just in the part of the game where she hurts me by making me the villain and ignoring me in a brutal fashion.

At first, when you're unaware of the game you're playing, it's not really your fault - but what about now I'm aware of it? What does that mean if I go back knowing the inevitable heartache we'd both experience?

I also think the longer the game goes on, the more excessive the rejections and make ups need to be to keep the addictive game going, which is why I think some of these relationships escalate to violence and litigation over time - deciding when you need to exit the game before it gets 'too real' is probably a good strategy.