Struggles over what’s right

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I’ve been over my story quite a bit. H is still reeling from his firing almost a year ago and struggles with the fact that my parents are still friends with people involved. H worked at a church where my parents were members in the 1980s. They’ve remained friends with several people there. The wife of my dad’s closest friend was chair of the personnel committee who did the actual firing, though H himself will admit we don’t know what happened or who was really behind it. There was a change in senior pastors and the new pastor has a history of firing the person in H’s position. For all we know, she was the one to get H three months’ severance pay. Anyway, my parents have remained on friendly terms.

H says he gets the 40-year-friendship but, in his opinion, sometimes you have to take sides. He can’t understand why my parents didn’t cut it off or at least confront them. Or why they didn’t reach out to him to explain.

I refuse to tell them what to do or to get involved in it. I also refuse to be angry with my parents over it. I don’t know if that’s uncaring of me. I just really don’t want to set anything else off because chances are any response from my parents won’t be the right one for him. I don’t know if I’m just being avoidant? If I should just tell my parents H is upset about this and leave it to the three of them to talk it through. I just don’t know. I fear just contributing to keeping it all going.

Related: the music director at that church was my voice teacher in college so I’ve known him a long time. I was also in that church choir from after college until H got fired. He and his partner were friendly with us and we occasionally had dinner together, etc. This friend has been reaching out to H, who doesn’t reply. This person still works at the church and is something of a gossip. H is convinced that F wants to trap him into talking about what happened, therefore violating the termination agreement and H would get sued. I think there’s no way. Do I think he wants gossip? Probably. Do I think he genuinely cares? Yes.

Well, this morning, F texted me. Just saying hi, he misses us, would love to have us over for a cookout.

Now I find myself torn. I know and understand how H feels. He’s blocking F’s number. I can’t bring myself to go that. And I don’t feel right just ignoring this friend. He has (some pretty big) faults, but he was good to me and was the first person to give me confidence in my singing. I don’t feel right not giving some sort of explanation. But I know that will set H off even more. Anyone who continues to work for that church is a traitor in his eyes. If I write without telling H, he’s likely to hear about it and will be furious. If I tell him what I’m going to do, he’ll probably tell me I can do what I want — but I know it will lead to anger and another topic for him to lash out over (as well as another example of my lack of caring and loyalty, at a time where he’s having a LOT of instability).

Any advice or eye-opening reflections would be helpful.

I’m really feeling at my emotional limit these days.

[Ozzie101]

I’ve been over my story quite a bit. H is still reeling from his firing almost a year ago and struggles with the fact that my parents are still friends with people involved. H worked at a church where my parents were members in the 1980s. They’ve remained friends with several people there. The wife of my dad’s closest friend was chair of the personnel committee who did the actual firing, though H himself will admit we don’t know what happened or who was really behind it. There was a change in senior pastors and the new pastor has a history of firing the person in H’s position. For all we know, she was the one to get H three months’ severance pay. Anyway, my parents have remained on friendly terms.

H says he gets the 40-year-friendship but, in his opinion, sometimes you have to take sides. He can’t understand why my parents didn’t cut it off or at least confront them. Or why they didn’t reach out to him to explain.

I refuse to tell them what to do or to get involved in it. I also refuse to be angry with my parents over it. I don’t know if that’s uncaring of me. I just really don’t want to set anything else off because chances are any response from my parents won’t be the right one for him. I don’t know if I’m just being avoidant? If I should just tell my parents H is upset about this and leave it to the three of them to talk it through. I just don’t know. I fear just contributing to keeping it all going.

Related: the music director at that church was my voice teacher in college so I’ve known him a long time. I was also in that church choir from after college until H got fired. He and his partner were friendly with us and we occasionally had dinner together, etc. This friend has been reaching out to H, who doesn’t reply. This person still works at the church and is something of a gossip. H is convinced that F wants to trap him into talking about what happened, therefore violating the termination agreement and H would get sued. I think there’s no way. Do I think he wants gossip? Probably. Do I think he genuinely cares? Yes.

Well, this morning, F texted me. Just saying hi, he misses us, would love to have us over for a cookout.

Now I find myself torn. I know and understand how H feels. He’s blocking F’s number. I can’t bring myself to go that. And I don’t feel right just ignoring this friend. He has (some pretty big) faults, but he was good to me and was the first person to give me confidence in my singing. I don’t feel right not giving some sort of explanation. But I know that will set H off even more. Anyone who continues to work for that church is a traitor in his eyes. If I write without telling H, he’s likely to hear about it and will be furious. If I tell him what I’m going to do, he’ll probably tell me I can do what I want — but I know it will lead to anger and another topic for him to lash out over (as well as another example of my lack of caring and loyalty, at a time where he’s having a LOT of instability).

Any advice or eye-opening reflections would be helpful.

I’m really feeling at my emotional limit these days.

[Cat Familiar]

I see Karpmann Triangle issues in all of these issues you’re pondering.

Just more examples of your husband feeling like a victim and expecting others to make things better for him.

You’re not being avoidant. You’re holding firm to boundaries where you should. It’s his business, not yours and there may have been lots of issues regarding his employment and installing a new pastor may have been a tidy way of getting rid of a troublesome employee.

You have a long-standing friendship with the music director. That your husband doesn’t want anything to do with him is his business. How you might navigate a friendship in spite of his opinions, is your business.

Remember that abusers isolate their targets. It’s easy to let go of friends and family rather than facing the wrath, but what kind of life do you want to live where this becomes your de facto choice?

 

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Cat. Honestly, I feel so confused all the time.

What is genuinely supporting my husband?
What is triangulation?
What is reasonable?
What is not?
What is insensitivity and avoidance?
What is a healthy boundary?

These all spin through my head these days. I just keep feeling like some sort of wall or foundation is cracking and the scary thing is, I can’t even tell if the wall was a healthy or unhealthy one.

I don’t know if my parents have done things the right way. Should they have confronted their friends? Cut things off? Talked to H and explained their feelings and decision? I don’t know. I have no clue what a reasonable and healthy person would say. I just feel like it’s not my business. But is that me just holding onto that so I can avoid conflict/an uncomfortable conversation.

Same with the friend. He’s done things in the past (not to me) that are troubling. He has some issues. But I do feel some loyalty to him. Is that weakness? Or misplaced? Or an example that my priorities are out of whack?

These are the thoughts that won’t go away. I keep questioning myself. My T and I talked about that last week. She was concerned I was starting to doubt some things I had been so firm about before.

Given the situation it’s probably to be expected. But it’s very difficult.

I already feel like I can’t go to anyone. Going to my family is only a last resort (only if/when the relationship is ending for good). Because of his church work, I feel like I can’t go to pastors. My other acquaintances I may trust with being able to talk and get emotional support were all members of the church that fired him. It all really is wrapped up in him.

But those may just be excuses on my part. His actions are his. If others find out and have negative feelings towards him because if it, the responsibility is ultimately his.

I don’t know. I don’t like feeling this way. I know the responsibility to do something about it is mine. I need to keep thinking this through.

[Cat Familiar]

Think of it this way. You have joined a cult. Not one you intended to join, but nevertheless…

Living with him, you are getting reprogrammed to doubt yourself. There’s an incentive to do so because by not asserting yourself, you’re keeping the peace. But that comes at a high price.

Already you are feeling alienated from family and friends and you don’t feel you can talk to anyone close about your relationship issues.

 Blunt truth: it is none of your parent’s business about their friend firing your husband. They have no responsibility to speak with this friend, nor cut off the long-standing friendship. This is entirely a separate matter—a huge gulf between business and friendship. They have no responsibility to speak to your husband about it either and an emotionally healthy partner would understand that.

You have lost your lodestar about what is normal in a relationship and are starting to believe a disordered person’s attitude that other people are supposed to intrude and fix things for a grown man.

This will continue to get worse. You will find yourself even more isolated, having fewer people to confide in. (I speak from experience.)

That you can’t talk to your family, who you were once so close with, is tragic. Other than a sister who sounds like she has a personality disorder, your family sounds so emotionally healthy and supportive.

I feel for you, Ozzie. You’re dealing with a lot. And you are losing some of your strength and resolve.

[Ozzie101]

I appreciate the reality check and the validation. It helps more than you know.

Your statements about my parents are what I believe too. It helps to hear someone else say it do I know I’m not the only one who thinks they’re heartless or unreasonable. H keeps pulling out how family is first for him and all the things he would do if someone hurt me in this way. What I’m thinking is, “I would never ask, expect or even WANT you to do those things. In fact, I’d think less if you if you did.”

H called and I told him F texted. He asked if I had responded and I said not yet but I will. He accepted that, said it was probably the right thing to do. Reasonable. When he gets upset or emotional, his attitude will change.

I think that’s part of the struggle. A lot of the time, he’s very rational and reasonable and capable of good discussions. It’s when he gets triggered that it all goes out the window and things we were fine about come back in a big, bad way.

I’ve already told H I plan to go on at least part of my family’s beach trip next year. He encouraged me to go this year but I couldn’t get time off on such short notice. My going next year has been awakening some things in him and I know it will not be easy but this is something I really want (and need) to do.

[GaGrl]

If every church member who had a fellow church member friend interfered or commented on their respective committee roles, two things would happen -- 1) the friendships would collapse, and 2) the church fellowship eventually would suffer perhaps irreparable damage.

My father never commented on his best friend's personnel committee actions, and his friend never commented on my dad's finance committee actions -- other than regular Board of Deacons meetings.

Your H not only expects someone to rescue him ( "someone" changing from crisis to crisis), he has so many people and relationships entwined in his expectations! His self-concept is under-developed, and he pulls everyone else in to these situations to compensate.

I am puzzled, however, over what you can do to support him when he is rejecting therapy -- other than hold on to your own sense of self and a more common-sense view of reality in human relationships.

[Ozzie101]

You’re right. It’s really a spider web. It’s amazing the number and variety of people and events he’s able to connect.

After we mentioned the text from F, I got a text from H asking me not to respond until he and I talk more. I’m ok with that but I’m still going to respond. In my own way. H pretty much said he thinks you response isn’t as pointed or passive-aggressive as his. I’m happy to briefly discuss but I won’t talk for hours or let him dictate what I say.

I really have no idea how to support him. He gets so angry and his reactions are so out-sized. Last night the text from F had him nearly pulling his hair out.

I think part of what upsets him is that I won’t react the way he does. He gets mad at his mom and refuses to talk to her for a while. It bothers him I won’t do the same with my parents. Or I won’t go along with his scorched-earth plans or desires to blast people publicly or chew people out or talk to attorneys. It’s probably mirroring. He needs someone else to mirror his feelings and responses so he knows they’re right.

[stolencrumbs]

I need to keep thinking this through.

Hey Ozzie,
I'm sorry you're dealing with all of this, and (obviously) you're getting good advice from others here. I just wanted to maybe push back a little bit on this statement above, in part because it is something I used to say all the time.

I don't get the sense that you really need to think this through more. You understand what's going on. You understand BPD. You understand your H. You understand your part in it. You understand things you can work on. You understand things you can do differently. At the intellectual level, I think you're pretty well-versed and aware.

That's where I think I was for a while. At some point, it became almost pointless to see my old T because there was almost no genuine insight she could give me. I really did "know" the things she would tell me. Then I'd go right on doing the same things.

It wasn't until fairly recently that I bought into the idea that, at some point, you're not going to think your way into things being different. There's a lot to unpack in saying that, but I'll focus on one part of it. In my case, and I think in these relationships generally, our focus is almost entirely on the disordered person. It's like a kind of tunnel vision. And it starts to feel really normal. That's just how we go through life. We have to focus on the other person and what they might do or how they might react or etc. And that's a survival mechanism. When there's a threat, you better focus on it and try to mitigate it. That's what I did. So much so that I didn't really understand what it meant to focus on myself. Like, sure, I can do that. I did things that I enjoyed and did things that didn't involve my wife. But my focus was still on her. I was rarely really, truly "present" with others or when I was doing other things. And when my new T pointed this out, and when I started to try to focus on myself, I genuinely didn't know how to do it. It also felt really selfish. It's a skill that took practice to actually get back. I wasn't going to think my way into knowing how to do this or into not feeling selfish. It took someone who understood these relationships, understood trauma, and understood that what I needed was not to think about or understand things better. I needed skills that had atrophied and someone to help me get them back.

I don't know if that makes sense. Obviously thinking about things is important. I just get the sense in your posts that you've thought about all of this plenty. It seems like your mental and emotional orientation is on your H, and figuring out how to reorient, ground yourself, and widen your vision a little bit might be a place to put energy.

[Ozzie101]

You make very good sense, stolencrumbs. And there’s a lot of value in what you say. I do focus too much on H. His thoughts. His feelings. His behavior. His actions. I can see how, over time, that can lead to an erosion or loss of the self.

I guess my “thinking through” needs to be about how to shift my focus. How to get stronger myself. I’m living in a way now where every day is a tangle of emotions and uncertainty. Not a healthy way to live. I have to figure out how I deal and cope.

[Cat Familiar]

When your total focus is on the pwBPD in your life, their transitory thoughts and emotions take on monstrous proportions.

And of course, out of a inborn need for self preservation, we pay attention to the raging beast, hoping to soothe it, cajole it, humor it.

But what that does is train them to think that they’re the most important person in the room.

Breaking that cycle takes willpower and won’t-power in that we refuse to be manipulated into catering to them when they turn up the volume. Otherwise what are we training them to do?

It can be dangerous. And changing that pattern must be an all or nothing endeavor. Forever.

It helps to start with boundaries on small issues. Get some success under your belt before you attempt bigger problems.

[GaGrl]

Your husband talks a lot about his expectation that you "help" and "support" him.

Perhaps a way to begin shifting focus to your needs is to look at what he does to help and support you.

What is he doing now (or not doing), and what do you need him to do in future?

[Ozzie101]

Those are good suggestions. I’m starting to think of smaller issues to “practice” with. In a way the texts with F may one.

How does he support me? That requires some thought. He talks a lot about how he would support me if I were in similar situations (usually ways I would not want — like telling people off or cutting off friends) but we’re never in those situations.

Even when I was sick with kidney stones, he took care of me but one night went off into a rant about my dad and brother-in-law.

[stolencrumbs]

You make very good sense, stolencrumbs. And there’s a lot of value in what you say. I do focus too much on H. His thoughts. His feelings. His behavior. His actions. I can see how, over time, that can lead to an erosion or loss of the self.

I guess my “thinking through” needs to be about how to shift my focus. How to get stronger myself. I’m living in a way now where every day is a tangle of emotions and uncertainty. Not a healthy way to live. I have to figure out how I deal and cope.

I would just say I don't think it's about getting stronger. You're plenty strong. You've over functioned for a long time and still managed to get a new job, navigate a move, and take care of your husband. Strength isn't the issue. I'm not sure it's even about coping. It's about learning how to do something you probably used to do without even thinking about it--turning some of your attention to yourself, your needs, your thoughts, your values, etc.

[Cat Familiar]

Strength isn't the issue. I'm not sure it's even about coping. It's about learning how to do something you probably used to do without even thinking about it--turning some of your attention to yourself, your needs, your thoughts, your values, etc.

Stolencrumbs clearly understands this. You can spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to support your partner and nothing changes.

Ozzie, I see you doing everything you can to be supportive of your husband and he still doesn’t recognize it and calls you unsupportive. That has just made you try harder to fill an unquenchable need.

[Ozzie101]

And that’s a trigger for me — being unsupportive or unhelpful. I’ve become able to recognize that. Putting it into practice has been a bit of a struggle, but realizing the patterns and my own triggers and “weaknesses” is a key part, I suppose.

Truth is, the core wound(s) can’t be fixed by me or by anyone. Everything he latched into with “if this person would just do this it would be okay” is a myth, really. Even if it did provide temporary relief, it wouldn’t be a long-term solution because the ultimate problem isn’t with my parents, their friends, his job, the house.

Finding that way to shift more of my focus to myself is, yes, what I need to work on. It’s being more aware of what I’m doing and recognizing things that have become automatic. I’ve thought of maybe keeping a list (writing or typing helps me) as I think of or notice things. Paying attention to how my body reacts.

One thing I know will likely be a trigger for both of us: years ago I started a tradition of taking my sisters’ kids out for their birthdays to shop for their gift. It was special one-on-one time. With COVID and our move, I’m way behind on the girls. (At 16 my nephew isn’t really interested anymore  .

This is often a sore spot for H because my sisters don’t do this for SS10. They’re very kind to him when they see him and generous at Christmas but they don’t really do a birthday thing for him. Then again, we’ve never hosted a family party for him or invited their kids to his parties either. It disturbs H that it’s not equal. I’ve tried validating and using empathy. I get where he comes from. But I also know my relationships with my Ns is very different than my sisters’ with SS (practically nonexistent, really).

I’ve kept doing the birthday treat regardless and don’t plan to stop until the girls outgrow it and lose interest. But maybe that’s one area to practice my boundaries and communication skills as well as managing my own emotions.

[formflier]

And that’s a trigger for me — being unsupportive or unhelpful. 

Your going to have to get used to "feeling like a jerk" (insert azzhole or other such thing as well...you get the picture)

I still feel weird sometimes with the "stands" that I take..others on this forum and my P help give me realty checks and from time to time actually give me the "No...FF...you actually are a azzhole on this and probably should try to listen, go with the flow..etc etc.

For now..."try" to be a jerk.  You'll likely be pretty close.

OK...I want to switch gears and I'll let others comment if it's appropriate.  I get it..start a new thread to focus on something specific.

Axiom 1.  Yes it is appropriate to "support" your husband.

Axiom 2:  Figuring out what healthy support looks like can be  frustrating.

Axiom 3:  Us the gifts that your pwBPD hands you..unapologetically.


I think your husbands repeated homicidal threats fall under Axiom 3.  If you focus on that and never give an inch on letting him off the hook...I think that's where your best chance of change is.

Note:  I'm not saying "fix"...but change for the better.

Or...(here is the hard part)...you need to know sooner rather than later that all his "contrition" is complete BS and he has no intention of ever actually "trying".

When do you guys meet with his P about this?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Oh...please go hang out with your friend.  Does your friend know hubby has low opinion...or there is a "thing" there?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I totally agree with FF about expanding your range     It was a major trigger to be called selfish, self absorbed, uncaring, thoughtless, unfeeling, disconnected, arrogant, unkind, narcissistic, etc.

I know I’m not any of those descriptors, but I can do thoughtless things or be a bit self absorbed. It’s not because I don’t care; it’s because I’m human. It’s not me, but it is my behavior at times, and when called out or I notice it myself, I strive to do better.

That said, learning to have a thick skin and advocating for my own interests, while respecting others, a.k.a. being an azzh*le in BPD-speak because I’m not wholly focused on their momentary wants and needs, has brought me a great sense of freedom and liberty from those nagging triggers. 

[Ozzie101]

All that makes sense. And, yes, the reality checks I get here and from my T are very helpful in this area. It’s ok to “give myself permission” to not focus all (or even most) of my energy on H (and SS) and the crisis of the moment.

The other day, he made another “I’d like to kill X” comment again and while I was mentally scrambling for what I’d planned to say, he saw my look.
“Oh, you know I would never do it.”
“Doesn’t matter. I don’t want to hear comments like that. That sort of talk isn’t a joke.”
He moved on but didn’t make another one of those that night.

There have been difficulties scheduling P since H is about to be out of town and P is going on vacation immediately after. So, working on that.

As for the friend, he likely has no clue. This friend has some issues of his own. He can be very thoughtful but has a troubled history and isn’t fully trustworthy. Honestly, I don’t really put getting back together with him high on my list. I just didn’t feel right ghosting him. Anyway, H and I both sent generic replies and he hasn’t said anything else. Knowing him, we probably won’t hear back for another 6 months.

[Cat Familiar]

Good work on the look and verbal response. 

[formflier]

I agree..love the look and response!   

Grabbing coffee and "getting back together" and/or a BBQ are completely..completely different things.

Caution on dichotomous thinking!

I think it would be a good thing if somehow..someway there was a brief re-connection with you and friend.  Don't toss in it hubby's face...but don't hide it either.  

A good question for your hubby..and perhaps others.

Is vacation more important...or healing?  Is hubby out of town on vacation or business?  Virtual visits could be interim step before seeing the P in person.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

It’s for vacation. And this P only does virtual appointments now. Honestly, I haven’t pushed for it any sooner because the last time I was supposed to be part of it, he was also out of town and I got left off the call. He insisted he thought I was just on there listening. If we’re together, less chance of there being a “misunderstanding.” I’m trying to do everything I can to make sure there are no problems.

[formflier]

It’s for vacation. And this P only does virtual appointments now. Honestly, I haven’t pushed for it any sooner because the last time I was supposed to be part of it, he was also out of town and I got left off the call. He insisted he thought I was just on there listening. If we’re together, less chance of there being a “misunderstanding.” I’m trying to do everything I can to make sure there are no problems.

I agree on the logic..but disagree on "waiting".  Let him solve this and he can make sure you are on the call...or perhaps he isn't serious about what he says.

Waiting is not your friend.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I’m trying to do everything I can to make sure there are no problems.

Is he?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Ozzie, you may have read it before, but just for a refresher and maybe some clarity, it may help you to review the criteria for a healthy relationship:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

If you have trouble determining whether you are doing things that are supportive or that fall within the normal range of healthy expectations of relationships, refer back to this article. If you are being expected to do things that fall outside of the range of healthy behaviors in relationships depicted in this article,  that should be your clue that something is amiss.

[Ozzie101]

Is he? I don’t know. Deep down, I think he’s scared that something may really be wrong and he’s avoiding.

Thank you, Redeemed. I just read through it again and it is a valuable resource and touchstone. Yes, there are definitely problem areas. The letting others describe your reality, allowing others to define your reality and personal values ones stand out to me as areas I need yo do some shoring up.

Though I suppose my ability to recognize/see it is a sign that things haven’t gone too far?

[formflier]

What does that mean...something wrong versus something "really" wrong?

I think I know where you are going with that..but don't want to guess.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I just have a suspicion that he genuinely afraid there may be a physiological problem. I could be wrong. If he really has told his doctors the truth about what’s been happening, my theory would be shaky. I’m not sure what’s behind it. I just think there’s avoidance and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s afraid of a diagnosis of some severe issue.

[formflier]

Right...please don't take this as criticism but a genuine question. 

Does he NOT have a serious problem right now?  And there is a physiological component to it?

I do kinda get what you mean and if he truly is "avoidant" you can test this. 

Impose consequences to his behavior. 

If there is a cost to homicidal threats...he will "avoid" them.

If "bad news" shows up after he does "X"...and he truly is an "avoidant" person...he will stop doing "X".

Are you tracking with the "logic"?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I do track your logic. And I have done a lot of reading on consequences (mostly in relation to children but the underlying theory applies).

There is a problem. Yes, I think there may be a physiological component (though, not being a doctor, I can’t be sure).

I haven’t decided if he’s avoiding it or not. He borders on hypochondriac. He sees doctors all the time about anything that may be a problem. Knowing that, it wouldn’t be in his pattern for him to avoid things with his P or T (when he had one). And, in the past, he’s been eager for me to participate with his P. I don’t know why he’d hedge and stall and lie to keep me away now. Yet it seemed like that was what was happening.