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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Still on this journey  (Read 407 times)
WanderColossus

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« on: June 29, 2021, 07:06:43 PM »

Hi,
This is my third post here, though I look at the site often.  First post was summer 2019 and last was January 2020…. Shortly after my last post we started a trial separation which has remained in place ever since.  It’s a cause of dissatisfaction as I’m living with my parents nearby until I feel financially good with making a change of residence.  On the other hand living apart was probably a lifesaver as emotional dysregulation, or out of control behavior was ramping up prior to the separation.

We have 2 kids, 6 and 3.

I’ve been through probably hundreds of hours of counseling/therapy in the last 5 years, and my wife has been through probably about half that amount.  The (self-initiated) psychological evaluations mentioned in the last post were completed and I was found not to have adhd or ASD.  She…. I think was found to not have ADHD, but I’m embarrassed to say I don’t know what the other results were.  She’s had a therapist since 2019 and I since 2020 I’ve had a counselor from the same practice who recently have a release to share information with one another.  This development has been of great comfort to me because although neither are super BPD aware they are both pretty serious people and I have actually started having biweekly meetings with her therapist that are productive and signal to me that at least as of the last bit that therapist is able to parse narratives for what is actually going on.

I also have another therapist lined up who I have talked to and I believe is probably highly effective for BPD, who I have been laying the groundwork for her meeting. 

During the pandemic and separation she really tunneled into conspiracy theories but finally  i think she is recovering from that, although she still has non-factual inclinations about vaccines and masks (which I am not too concerned about in themselves).

I guess the most difficult thing in the last bit is that when she has the kids she is overwhelmed and under parents to varying degrees and when she doesn’t have the kids she can get despondent.  She had a favorite person type affair which seemed to fill up her non-parent time, until it apparently ended.

She has controlling tendencies which can be difficult.

In 2021 she had suicidal talk which ramped up - I think in tenden with facing cognitive dissonance with the said conspiratorial thinking. 

I have been patiently advised by a longtime friend to do mediation/ get a judge involved. I agree in theory but I think without improvement of the behaviors she would have difficulty honoring agreements and could spiral.   As it is during the separation she has recovered a lot of parental or adult responsibility taking, although there are frequent surprising lapses.  Of the type that I often see on this forum.

And in general there is a lack of theory of mind for all of the people around her, including I would say our children, which makes me feel like I have a weighty responsibility to provide that. Inability to talk age appropriate, etc.

I guess I should just mention some common behaviors that are difficult: shouting out personal and often false information about me out of the townhouse, involving my unwilling parents on long text rants over seemingly insignificant issues, opening car door while driving or other dramatic actions, going into accusations and victimizations during many of our in person meetings. 

I would like to continue to post because I understand I’m supposed to lead and I need help with that.  I’ve read the margalis fjelstad books and have been practicing jade.  I still find it very difficult and have to take a break or leave often.



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Ventak
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2021, 11:29:37 PM »

Hi Wander, glad you are reaching out again.

It sounds like you are doing some great research, and trying to improve communication techniques.  Great start, and will be needed for many years with young kids keeping your lives intertwined.

Your journey is very similar to mine, and I related on many levels.  I'm curious about the BPD specialist you mentioned.  Is that for you or your BPDw?  Has she been officially diagnosed?  Also curious how you have access to her psychiatrist, did she sign waivers?  I thought that was taboo... though I'd love to chat with my BPDw's psychiatrist.

Are you considering or already decided on a divorce?  It wasn't clear to me from your post.
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WanderColossus

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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2021, 01:46:08 AM »

Hi Ventak,
My wife is not diagnosed.  She is receiving therapy for PTSD although I do not think she has been officially diagnosed with that either.   Although she cites PTSD frequently, I think she also wonders why she doesn’t fit in with typical PTSD sufferers, and I think would possibly be drawn to a different diagnosis that explained some of her symptoms more (bpd). 

I personally think that if this prospective therapist suggests BPD to her from a position of understanding and it clicks with her, she may then seek the diagnosis.  She will often say things like “you’re going to take the kids,” but she says it from a victimization perspective rather from a “I have to make some changes or I could lose something precious to me” perspective,  I think if she is able to have done awareness of her situation and some hope that it can change, she may have the motivation to do so. 

The psychologist - was able to complete two separate assessments that included tests for personality, cognition, ADHD and ASD among other things, and offered a diagnosis - in my case depression and anxiety - although we have no access to each other’s report.  The psychologist was only able to take one of us on for therapy, but my wife declined, and I found no reason to establish a therapeutic relationship with the psychologist that would rule out one with my wife down the road.  Psychologist and potential BPD therapist are different people, to be clear.

We are not divorced.  Because of my work benefits, she is able to receive medical treatments at low cost.  She also has never made any plans to be able to be independent, though she has largely regained her function as a parent. We’ve had two kids and after the first she kind of lost herself for 2/3 years and was starting to do well when she became pregnant with the second, so among other things I am hoping that she repeats the process  with our second child who just turned 3.  In some ways that is a realistic prospect, but there are some other variables that occurred since my second son was born (started receiving treatment for trauma, also had an encounter with brain infection that I suspect may have had some sequelae (think like long COVID), and then a period of high intensity conflict with me, which was not physical in nature and mostly initiated by her, but resulted in me breaking a few things and letting out a couple of unkind words)… and then COVID while we separated - all of which is to say that if I can protect myself by setting boundaries, and have confidence that the kids are getting what they need to be healthy, then I can have the luxury of letting her try to figure her stuff out.

I think as unpleasant the separation has been for me in some ways, it did all those things that people talk about when they say that divorce can be better for kids than staying together in conflict.  That is, there is still conflict but it’s able to be turned in or off by proximity.   I also think that as much as she was begging me for divorce a year ago, (though not now), actual divorce from my side would trigger real abandonment issues and things could go sideways pretty quickly.  I feel it’s possible that the kids could have a long period of instability. I’ve read a number of people’s experiences here, and I don’t believe the chances of a clean solution are high enough to make divorce the best option at this time.   I am completely agnostic about the relationship itself. As far as I am concerned I don’t feel like I know who the individual is anymore and perhaps I could give it another go if somehow she figured it out herself, but that’s probably not likely.  My priority is a positive coparenting relationship. 

The effects I see with the kids are:
Them needing to console mommy when she’s affected
Being unsupervised more than I’d like but within safe parameters
Their hearing a lot of negative self talk or narration of my poor qualities
Two times opening the door when car was in motion
Seeing behavior like blocking door and physical intimidation, though not violence
Hearing words of disrespect and contempt toward their father
Some issues imagining what the kids themselves are going through and talking to them at an age appropriate level
Often seeming less emotionally mature than the kids
Needing to exert control sometimes results on kids missing out on something

There are other things but those are some main things. 

I have recently thought to myself that if she does not stop these behaviors she is going to have impaired relationships with her kids own the line, but I decided that there’s little I can do to prevent that.  Because if that happened it would likely mean that they were setting healthy boundaries with her. I feel like the way things are going, my kids are going to at some point figure that she is not the adult in the house who you grudgingly accept their authority, but more like the immature sibling who tips over the board game when things aren’t going her way and doesn’t seem to understand that the rules are there so that everyone can enjoy the game.  In other words, I will keep a close eye on the kids’ resilience first and foremost, however that may evolve.

That sounds a lot more confident than I feel when I’m in the maelstrom. 

Although we have managed to go camping together a few times since it’s warmed up, on the other hand there are a lot of times where I’ll come over to do something and.she will go to 11 from out of nowhere and either she will demand that I’ll leave, or I say I’m sorry, this is not okay for me, and leave on my own. In those cases I never take the kids with me because she calms down immediately after I am gone and she would probably call the police in a panic if I took the kids while she was escalated. Also she’d probably try to grab the kids from me which would be a big problem.  So there we are with that, and it’s very disheartening when it happens, although I do feel good that I’m teaching the kids to be calm from my example, and not to accept abusive behavior (even if it’s by removing oneself from the behavior)…


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khibomsis
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2021, 02:54:08 AM »

WanderColossus, to be honest it sounds to me like you are doing just great. All things considered, you have made the best of a bad situation and achieved some sort of stability, for now. You have removed yourself from the conflict, actively sought as much support as you can, and appear to have solid family support. From here on out there is just patience and time.


How are you addressing your own depression and anxiety? Your kids need you to be as healthy as you can, and I would treasure the island of space you have created to heal. PTSD from long term relationships with a pwBPD is real, so give yourself grace and nurture your wellbeing. Sleeping, eating, exercise, routine and structure are all things that will bring you back on track. Once you are better you will be able to deal with the situation even more effectively.

Perhaps in consultation with your therapist draw up a plan around what you need from your interaction with your wife? There is not much more you can do for her, she has to choose her own path. You are doing well by providing stability. You have no obligation to also be her therapist. Work on how to achieve your needs, eg. boundaries, etc. Introduce one at a time and police it until established, then move on to the next one.

You are absolutely right that now is the time you model a healthy way of being for your kids. By ensuring that their time with you is conflict free you teach them to aspire to that as the norm. Unless they explicitly ask you to, do not get into their relationship with their mom. They will do what you do, so focus on that. If possible maybe think of getting them into play therapy to practice distress tolerance? It sounds horrible to need it at such a young age but as a daughter of a uBPD mom I sure wish I could have gotten into therapy as a child.

 I think your parents have every right to set boundaries with your wife around texts, etc. As you all model healthy communication she will run out of options. Keep putting the burden on her to to solve her problems. With that you are also expressing confidence in her ability to do so.

I find with my ex wBPD that this period of stable, cautious, loving but boundaried friendship has really done wonders for her healing. Anything close to demanding attention or reciprocal love will provoke a dysregulation, as it triggers her attachment issues, but now six months and counting of solid presence has enabled her to focus on her own issues while knowing she has support. It is immensely costly for me emotionally, of course, but it is a joy to see her improving every day.  I too find that by practicing detachment from the outcome and simply focusing on the quality of each interaction we are both doing much better.  

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Ventak
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2021, 09:32:18 AM »

Thanks for the clarification on the psychiatrist, makes more sense now.

It is quite common for pwBPD to have comorbid illnesses (PTSD, BiPolar, Anti-Social, etc..), so it is possible she suffers from both and just hasn't had the BPD diagnosis.  Your thoughts on hoping your wife might achieve "awareness of her situation" resonated with me.  I have held onto that thought the seven years since I learned about BPD, but have seen only occasional glimpses of that level of lucidity...  My BPDw has recently started Dialectic Behavior Therapy (DBT) and is now showing signs of that level of awareness.  She actually confessed to our niece that she had been "financially abusive" and that she made excuses for her violence when she should have found other solutions.  There has been good progress the past couple months since she started, and I am now looking forward to being able to contact her in a couple months to see for myself if this change is real.  Is DBT available in your area?  Is it something she might be willing to pursue?  It isn't only for BPD, so you might be able to present it as a way of dealing with PTSD.

Please keep in mind that abuse isn't only about violence.  It is about control.  As khibomsis points out your children need you to be healthy.  They need you to model the behavior of a mature adult.  Please take excellent care of yourself!
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WanderColossus

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 12:00:19 PM »

Thank you for the reply, khibomsis,
It’s reaffirming to hear that I seem to be doing well.  I think I am.  The kids seem good although from what I understand it’s inevitable that they will develop unhelpful schemas from the oversharing going on.  I don’t relate a lot of detail to my parents who I am currently living with so it is understandable that they are concerned that I may be papering over things that are worse than what is actually going on.  And again, I’ve taken the tactic of documenting as much as I can and keeping therapists informed rather than going a lawyer route, which I second guess sometimes.

As for depression and anxiety, when I was diagnosed it was a year and a half ago and between reading stuff like the book Feeling Good, which I highly recommend, and having a therapist I think I am not meeting those criteria anymore. I highly recommend Feeling Good because it sort of asks the question, okay, let’s say your fear comes true, what then?  And you realize that there may be a number of cognitive distortions that are keeping you in stasis, when most of the outcomes are really not the end of the world.

Regarding talking with therapist about what to expect from my wife, I think that simply reducing silent treatment or non responding to texts would be huge.  It’s a form of control that keeps me tied up.  Largely unintentional I think. Or maybe intentional in keeping her options open until the last minute. In any case i could request her to respond with a yes, no, or I can’t decide yet; and in return I could agree to keep in mind her decision fatigue.

Your last paragraph is hopeful and i feel like things are stabilizing for me a bit because noping  out of unacceptable situations and then quickly sending some kind of non-abandonment message works (except in long car drives…. Like I had the last few days when we went on a surprisingly successful beach trip with kids, that had two significant dysregulations on the back side - which is why it took me a while to reply!).


WanderColossus, to be honest it sounds to me like you are doing just great. All things considered, you have made the best of a bad situation and achieved some sort of stability, for now. You have removed yourself from the conflict, actively sought as much support as you can, and appear to have solid family support. From here on out there is just patience and time.


How are you addressing your own depression and anxiety? Your kids need you to be as healthy as you can, and I would treasure the island of space you have created to heal. PTSD from long term relationships with a pwBPD is real, so give yourself grace and nurture your wellbeing. Sleeping, eating, exercise, routine and structure are all things that will bring you back on track. Once you are better you will be able to deal with the situation even more effectively.

Perhaps in consultation with your therapist draw up a plan around what you need from your interaction with your wife? There is not much more you can do for her, she has to choose her own path. You are doing well by providing stability. You have no obligation to also be her therapist. Work on how to achieve your needs, eg. boundaries, etc. Introduce one at a time and police it until established, then move on to the next one.

You are absolutely right that now is the time you model a healthy way of being for your kids. By ensuring that their time with you is conflict free you teach them to aspire to that as the norm. Unless they explicitly ask you to, do not get into their relationship with their mom. They will do what you do, so focus on that. If possible maybe think of getting them into play therapy to practice distress tolerance? It sounds horrible to need it at such a young age but as a daughter of a uBPD mom I sure wish I could have gotten into therapy as a child.

 I think your parents have every right to set boundaries with your wife around texts, etc. As you all model healthy communication she will run out of options. Keep putting the burden on her to to solve her problems. With that you are also expressing confidence in her ability to do so.

I find with my ex wBPD that this period of stable, cautious, loving but boundaried friendship has really done wonders for her healing. Anything close to demanding attention or reciprocal love will provoke a dysregulation, as it triggers her attachment issues, but now six months and counting of solid presence has enabled her to focus on her own issues while knowing she has support. It is immensely costly for me emotionally, of course, but it is a joy to see her improving every day.  I too find that by practicing detachment from the outcome and simply focusing on the quality of each interaction we are both doing much better.  


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khibomsis
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2021, 03:42:14 PM »

Ah, WanderColossus. long car drives are epic for dysregulation. I once chanted for 45 minutes at a stretch to keep myself from driving off the road while my beloved raged all the way home. Generally getting stuck in a car with a pwBPD is not a good idea. Neither are vacations or public holidays. These seem to be situations which impose enormous amounts of stress. I am glad you managed to have a good time regardless.

It is wonderful to hear you are getting past your depression Way to go! (click to insert in post)  I find the stronger I am the better I am able to handle my pwBPD. The more I work at healing the more I find that keeping the peace depends on my inner strength.

I think your idea of a bargain sounds interesting. Indeed the trick is to figure out what makes things livable for you. Bearing in mind that often silent treatment is not about manipulating us but simply that they are riding out emotional storms and cannot spare the energy to communicate. These days I am detached enough to simply wait it out and enjoy the peace - but many on these boards find it abusive. Have you tried to share your feelings about it with her? If so, how did it go?  
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WanderColossus

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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 10:37:22 AM »


Regarding DBT, I believe that her current therapist has done some DBT training in the past year (perhaps even influenced by her client!)  and I think it has been somewhat effective.  I’m first holding out for this one BPD specialized therapist I’ve found who I believe has a good chance of getting through.  I have been doing the whole gradually planting seeds thing regarding this new therapist.  I plan to ask her to see her for an hour and see what she thinks.
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WanderColossus

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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2021, 10:59:43 AM »

Khibomsis,

This drive was about 3.5 hours.  It’s useful to be reminded that vacations and public holidays are to be avoided.  I’ve tried to have her Uber as much as possible and keep holidays non-stressful, which basically means not pressuring her to participate in any for the last couple years. Vacations are unavoidable because I think “nature bathing” or whatever you call it, being out in nature, is very helpful to her, and between logistics and disliking being alone, camping trips are done as a family.

Regarding non-response to texts, to give an example, routinely I’d try to check in with her whether she was cooking dinner tonight or whether I need to cook/pick something up.  And I’d get no response to that, but maybe later some complaints or unrelated needs.  And then I’d end up picking up dinner when she was making dinner, or more routinely get home and then find there were no plans for dinner.  In the latter case, routinely she would initiate and continue a tirade long past the appropriate time to have dinner ready for the kids, and I felt like I bore the burden of making these things happen without seeking to ignore her. Another would be trying to confirm an engagement for the kids (or a request from the teacher during distance learning) and not getting a response, and therefore having to give a lot of “I’m not sure yet” explanations on my own behalf to the outside world.

I guess the non-response to texts also created a bandwidth problem where it felt like I could only share and get through one piece of essential information per week, because things tended to be forgot or ignored, or disappear under walls of texts. 

Clearly one of the solutions is to routinize as much as possible. 

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khibomsis
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2021, 04:14:04 PM »

Ah, Wandercolossus you are a brave man  Smiling (click to insert in post) 3.5 hrs! Well strategized around the holidays! And that she is able to go camping with you argues a fairly high degree of functionality.
Indeed routine and structure is the thing. You cannot go wrong setting up rosters and making lists, I would not scruple to write them out large and put up posters. My then partner actually liked it because it made things easier for her. I once heard it said that their memory is like this ------- where  ours is like this _______ and it is not unheard of for her to lose a day or two. She could not remember dysregulations until I accidentally recorded one one day and played it back to her. So knowing what must be done and when, well in advance, helps.
I can see where the silent treatment drives you crazy. Perhaps strategizing beforehand? If teacher says X can we agree that Y? That keeps the burden on her to solve problems -expressing your faith in her ability to do so - while reducing the stress of someone waiting for an answer.
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kells76
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2021, 10:15:48 AM »

Hey WanderColossus,

This sounds awfully familiar:

Excerpt
Another would be trying to confirm an engagement for the kids (or a request from the teacher during distance learning) and not getting a response, and therefore having to give a lot of “I’m not sure yet” explanations on my own behalf to the outside world.

My DH's kids' mom is like that -- totally unpredictable whether she'll get back to you right away, or leave a text lingering for a week. Hard to plan if decisions are contingent on a response from her.

What we've pivoted to doing, over the MANY years of engagement... sigh... and many frustrating "waiting for an answer" times... is to build in a structure where her non-response is a response that allows us to move forward.

For example, SD13 wanted to do a summer camp that I'd heard about, but it was on Mom's time. If we had a "normal" coparenting relationship, DH or I probably would have emailed something like: "Hey, does it work for you for SD13 to do this camp next month from the 1st to the 7th?"

Notice -- there are no boundaries on that email, no deadlines, etc. A "normal" coparent wouldn't need those, and would probably write back "Works for me, can you do transportation?" or whatever.

But as you can guess, a disordered coparent would see that first email and, if they wanted to passively sabotage us providing something nice for SD13, they could: stonewall, delay, obstruct, ignore, etc, and leave us desperately chasing for an answer. DH's ex is the kind who would wait until after the signup deadline, then email back "Sure, sounds amazing!", and leave us as the "bad guys" who have to tell SD13 we missed the signup day. Mom remains the "hero" who is "totally fine" with camp, and we are the "villains" for getting SD13 excited and then telling her it won't work.

Instead, what we emailed was:

"Does it work for your schedule if SD13 does this camp from the 1st to the 7th? Let me know your thoughts by this Wednesday; if I don't hear back from you by then, I'll assume you're taking the lead on figuring out if it works." (note, we were OK with SD13 going or not going, so there wasn't that "fight" about "this really needs to work". The issue was more "one of us needs to do logistics for this to happen, and if I don't hear from you, I'm assuming that's what you're doing")

What that does is -- if she never responds, then that is a response. A non-response would say to me -- OK, now what I can do is tell SD13 "hey, I shared the info with Mom, and now it is up to her if you can go or not". It takes the responsibility off of me to "chase" an answer from her.

I wonder if you can move towards more of those "a non-response is a response" type texts and emails. It can take a lot of stress off of you.

Dinner: "Hey babe, I'm at the store for the next 20 minutes... if I don't hear back from you by 6:20, I'll assume you've got dinner plans covered, thanks!"

School: "Hey, D6's teacher needs to know when we want to do parent teacher conferences... she has a 5pm slot Thursday, so if I don't hear anything back from you by tomorrow night, I'll assume we're good to go and sign us up!"

...

I know that area of communication is a small slice of the larger BPD dynamic you're dealing with. I hope those ideas can help dial down the stress/uncertainty there and give you more bandwidth in other areas of life.
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WanderColossus

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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2021, 01:01:56 PM »

Hi Kelly76,
I did read this post and then things got really busy.  It’s a bit difficult to explain, but my wife started excluding herself from our family’s (my parents and brother) beach week since last year.  She also hasn’t met my parents (who live close by) in the last two years.  And she has issues when the kids aren’t with her.  So when she said she didn’t want to be in the house by herself, I of course said she is welcome at the beach house or there is camping available near the beach.  She chose camping.  To clarify, things camping related are what she idealizes, in a black and white sense.  She aspires to outdoor living, or at least she expresses herself that way.  So we did that and it went mostly okay. There was one day where she dragged out a morning beach visit for the whole day and I just let it happen (in retrospect I’m glad I did for unrelated reasons). But generally boundaries okay and 4 30 minute episodes in total which were acute but did not ruin the week for her or me or the kids or my family. So surprisingly good. It required some fortitude on my part but I felt good afterwards that it had gone well.  Then I got sick (not covid) and it’s been a little difficult to shake it and in the  course of being sick I got that reminder that I can’t be superhuman all the time and it was grounding in that sense. 

Anyway, Kells, I think your suggestion for communication is very good and I will seek to use that strategy of including built in boundaries in my communications so that I can proceed regardless of lack of response.
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