Need advice on upcoming conversation

[Choosinghope]

Hi BPD family! It's been awhile since I've visited the boards, but I'm so thankful to always have a place to go back to. Two things I want to bring up here.

First, my uBPD mom (who I'm NC with) has not tried to have any communication with me for over a year on any personal device (cell phone, email, mail, etc.). She sent an email to my school email (I'm a teacher) a few months back. I didn't bother reading the email, but my H did for me. She basically takes no responsibility for anything, her only crime was loving me too much, she knows I've completely rejected them, they burned my letters, and they're going to get rid of all my stuff if I don't have someone pick it up. Ok, fine. I didn't respond, and I'm working with the school safety team to ensure that she isn't able to harass me or future children at school. Her sending the email to my school account sent up some major red flags for me, and I wanted to see if anyone had any good insight into what is going on there. Why not my personal email address? I didn't even think she knew where I worked, so it's got me a little concerned.

Second, which is much more exciting, I am expecting a baby  My H and I have done a lot of thinking, praying, talking, and asking for advice, and we have firmly decided that my parents will not have any contact with Baby unless they show meaningful, consistent change. It was such a hard decision to make and come to terms with, but I've got an amazing counselor, and I'm doing well with the choice. My struggle concerns my sisters. I want to tell them and have them be a part of Baby's life. I will be meeting with them this weekend in person for July 4th, and I have been planning to tell them then. However, my sisters are all still in contact with my parents. My plan is to announce the news and plainly but gently explain that we are not choosing to include my parents in Baby's life. I don't want to ask them to keep a secret, but I also don't want to put them in a very awkward spot with my parents and potentially "unleash the kraken" when/if my parents find out about Baby. I also am pretty sure that two of my sisters will not be on board with me not including my parents. Knowing the situation, what do you all think? Are there any pitfalls I'm missing? Advice on how to handle this? Suggestions from past experience? Thanks all! 

[Mommydoc]

Welcome back and congratulations on maintaining NC for over a year and on the baby!

Sounds like you are doing the right thing in engaging the school and making them aware of the situation for your own protection.

You have great clarity and support from your H and your counselor and I believe you will stick with your decision.  You know your sisters, and if your gut says they will not be on board, then that is a very real possibility.  And if they are not on board, they will probably tell your mom and that will likely trigger her. 

You have a few choices:
- You can choose not to tell your sisters, then your mother won’t know, but then they can’t be part of your life and your babies life.
I know that is not your first choice.
- You can tell your sisters and ask them not to tell your mother,  which I agree is awkward.  But  if you are really clear about your decision there is a possibility that they will respect and honor your boundary and decision.  Within this option, you have to be prepared that they will not agree to not tell your mom and prepare for that possibility
-You can also tell your sisters, and just assume/ expect and prepare for the fact that they will tell your mother. You don’t even ask them not too. 

None of these are ideal options, so you have to choose which one aligns most with your values.  Regardless, stay committed to the very clear boundary you have set.  You can’t control your sisters or your mothers reactions, you can only control your own.

[Choosinghope]

Hi Mommydoc!

Thank you for your input and encouragement.

You know your sisters, and if your gut says they will not be on board, then that is a very real possibility.  And if they are not on board, they will probably tell your mom and that will likely trigger her.

I've had so much anxiety the last few months about what my mom's reaction will be when she inevitably finds out, because that's one of those secrets that will get back to her eventually. I think something that I need to come to terms with is that she is going to find out, and I can't control her reaction when she does. And, I don't want to let fear of her reaction dictate who I include in Baby's life, namely my sisters. I think that is my most important value in this situation. Not letting her control anything else in my life.

Although, the more I think about it, I don't think that I'm so much afraid of what she'll do or say but of what she'll feel. My mom made a huge deal when her first grandbaby was born about how being a grandma is so important and special. My sister had boundaries with her regarding the birth, and my mom took that as a complete rejection. I internalized awhile ago that being a grandparent is a sacred right that my parents were entitled to. I think that deep down I'm really afraid of doing something that will hurt my mom so much, even though I logically know all the reasons why it's the right thing to do for me and my family. Because I know that she feels everything so intensely. I can logically sit here and work through all the reasons why she can't be a part of Baby's life, but that is not something she will ever understand. All that she will see is a complete rejection.

I know that in dealing BPD, I have to let my mom feel her own feelings. But the daughter in me just hates so much leaving her to feel her feelings, especially when I know how much my actions will hurt. Inflicting that hurt on someone I dearly love is what I'm really afraid of, I'm realizing. Her words and attacks don't have much weight anymore, thankfully, but my morality does. More than ever, I feel like I'm in a catch-22, which I'm sure that we've all felt before. Oh dear. I apologize for how rambly this post became. Thanks all for reading!

[Methuen]

Hi CH

Congratulations on the pregnancy!  What an exciting new chapter!

Her sending the email to my school account sent up some major red flags for me, and I wanted to see if anyone had any good insight into what is going on there. Why not my personal email address? I didn't even think she knew where I worked, so it's got me a little concerned.

I don't know if it can be called insight, but it's strange she would send this email to your work if she's never done that before.  So...I would guess it to be because she wanted to be certain you received it (and she knows you check your school emails), and maybe she thinks your H filters your home emails?  If she doesn't know which school you work at, she either did some internet research, or perhaps asked one of your siblings.  Either way, she was resourceful in getting your school email.  

As to sharing the news, it is your baby, and your family life, and therefore your choice in who you choose to have in your baby's life. You have been thoughtful and rational about your decision, so good for you! As to telling your sisters about baby because you want them in baby's life, but not telling your parents because you don't want them in baby's life, all you can do is make your own decision, and accept that they are going to react how they are going to react.  Hopefully sisters support you, but it's probably wise to expect that someone will let the cat out of the bag either accidentally, or with intent.  I wouldn't get ahead of myself and overthink it.  That will just cause anxiety.  I'm still getting the hang of the whole "mindfulness" skill, but it strikes me that this would be a great example where practicing mindfulness would be really helpful.  Live in the moment.  Find your calm.  Then when something comes up, you will be in a better place to navigate it rationally...

Since the 4th of July is past, how did your sisters react with your news about baby?

How are you doing?

Again, congratulations and hugs CH.  I remember when H and I got our first positive pregnancy test, and how exciting it was.  That was 26 years ago for us!  So happy for you!

[madeline7]

First of all, congratulations! I am the Mom of 2 and it has been a wonderful journey. I cannot offer advice, I can only tell you that from my perspective (kids are now grown) and reaching a sort of senior age myself, my elderly uBPDm has not changed at all. As a matter of fact, she just hung up on me again, the good old I hate you don't leave me story. If your Mom doesn't take any responsibility for her behavior and you are NC, in my humble opinion, this likely will not change. For years I struggled with the guilt of having my parents in their lives, and then I struggled with periods of NC where I felt left out by the FOO, like NC was a self orphaning experience. My relationships with my siblings, esp 1 has been strained by all this toxicity running wild in the family. Bottom line, now I am getting older, my kids are grown, and I am in awe of those who were able to set and reinforce healthy boundaries for themselves. I am not beating myself up, but I am disappointed in learning about BPD later in my life. I guess if you read between the lines, you know what I would tell you if you really pressed me for an answer. But that would be based on my experience, and each person and family member with BPD is different. I wish you the best and your strength and wisdom will make you a wonderful parent.

[pursuingJoy]

I know that in dealing BPD, I have to let my mom feel her own feelings. But the daughter in me just hates so much leaving her to feel her feelings, especially when I know how much my actions will hurt. Inflicting that hurt on someone I dearly love is what I'm really afraid of, I'm realizing.

You're very wise to see this and embrace it. Unlocking these hidden parts of you and learning healthy ways of relating is going to make you a better mom. 

[Notwendy]

Congrats ! Such wonderful news.


Although I have had long term concerns about my BPD mother, I was not aware of BPD when my children were born. I did try at one point to go NC with her before that and still saw my father, but it was impossible to have any relationship with him and not her.

The problem with having a relationship with some family members but not your mother is that, if they are all connected to each other, it becomes awkward and difficult to navigate. For one, anything they know will be shared with her.

Some things to consider- the distance between you and your mother. If she's nearby/frequent visits, then that is more disruptive than the occasional grin and bear it visit. Fortunately my parents are not close enough to be frequent visitors. The second is how much hands on she would want. For my mother, she has no interest in hands on care. What she wants is the "image" of being a grandmother, the appearance that she has a relationship with her grandkids. But actually spending time with them, she lost interest quickly. She's also not a competent caregiver and I would not ever leave her alone with them. However, my father was hands on. He would play with them, read to them and so they would visit together. I was always present. My mother would basically be there but less involved, usually just watch them or watch TV. She isn't easy to deal with but my kids got to spend time with my father.

Where I had to have stronger boundaries was when the kids were older, old enough to be of use to her and she tried to enlist them as her emotional caretakers and confidant and triangulate them against me. I still made sure she was never alone with them, even though they were way past needing supervision. I just didn't want her to have the opportunity to manipulate them.

Then it's up to you how much you can tolerate or what battle you wish to fight. Is it worth the constant issues from being NC with her but not your siblings? Is it worth tolerating her briefly or is she so toxic nothing is worth it? It takes emotional energy either way- and you need to reserve this for your new baby. One idea may be to make the boundary on frequency. "I will see them on Christmas and Easter only" and that means the whole lot of them. The rest of the time, no visits. Wherever you set the boundary- do what works for you- but know there needs to be one boundary. If it's to not have your mother in your life, that's a good one, but it needs to be very clear to your sisters.

As to making seeing the baby contingent on your parents showing remorse- don't hold your breath. My mother is elderly, my father is deceased. She has not expressed remorse  or meaningful consistent change. What you need to do is make the boundary according to you, your feelings and what you can manage. Yes, it might cause an uproar, it did when I set any boundaries, but your first responsibility is to protect that little one and take care of you so you can be at your best for him/her.

[Choosinghope]

As always, thank you for your thoughtful replies and suggestions. I'm finding that navigating this relationship is hard, but a baby in the mix makes it much harder.

To update, the 4th went fairly well, and sharing the news didn't have any drama. All of my sisters said that they didn't want to be the ones to break the news and be on the receiving end of my mom's emotions, so that solves that problem. However, my sister with two little girls (who still have close contact with my mom) requested that I reach out and tell my parents directly about the pregnancy. Her concern is that her 4 year old will say something to my mom about her new cousin, and if my mom hears it from her for the first time, then my niece will see a really ugly side of my mom.

I understand her concern, which just highlights my own decision to not let my mom be close to future child. My husband and I are still talking about what to do, but we're thinking now about a simple email closer to the due date that says, "We just wanted to let you know that we will be having a child on this date." We aren't super comfortable with initiating contact, but we definitely think an email is better than a phone call. Any thoughts?

My sister who I trust and am close to just visited, and we had some really good discussions about my parents and the whole situation. From what she said, they are treating me like I'm dead. None of my sisters are allowed to talk about me or my H around them, and my sisters also were sternly told to not tell me anything about them (which my sister completely ignored). They have removed all of my contact information from their home, and my sisters is pretty sure that they've gotten rid of my baby books and stuff like that. The narrative has now shifted from, "Oh, my poor daughter is in an abusive situation and is rejecting us," to "Oh, my demon hellspawn and her demon husband are such terrible people and are out doing evil while completely rejecting us." Ok, I added some colorful language there, but that's the gist of what she is saying and believing.

None of that is surprising anymore, and it really makes the discussion of if they should be in my life irrelevant, I think. They have so clearly said that they are not a part of my life. In my mom's last email, she very clear stated that I am no longer their daughter. By that logic, she is not a grandmother to my children. I doubt that they would even really want to have contact with us, even with the baby. But from the illogical nature of BPD, it is still all my fault, and my parents will see me not telling them as the deepest betrayal and a testament to how far I have fallen as a human. In all this mess, I just want to do the right thing, whatever that is.

I think that my H and I would both be ok with very limited contact eventually between my parents and Baby, and if that happens I'll definitely be here asking for help. For now though, contact just isn't possible, even if I still wanted it. I can already tell that in the future, if I am able to maintain contact with two of my sisters, it will be strained and limited at best. I am resolved that having a separate life from my parents is what is best for me and my family, but I am realizing that I am going to lose more than just my parents. Aunts, uncles, cousins and sisters are also going to be lost. I'm so thankful that I have at least one sister who I trust and will be consistent.

Overall, I am doing ok. It isn't easy, but I have been trying to stay focused on my marriage, my new baby (so excited to learn gender!), my church and my job. The advice I have heard from pretty much everyone is to not let ANYONE, especially my mom, steal my joy at this point. I'm excited to be a mom, and I'm excited to start this new stage of life with my H. The rest really is just periphery, and I need to make sure that it stays there.

[Notwendy]

It looks like you have established the boundary already and also your parents have essentially "disowned" you at this time which means you aren't obligated to have them involved with your child.

In my case, the "disownment" was when my kids were teens. Somehow BPD mom got the idea that she could disown me, but still have a warm relationship with my kids without me.

What she didn't count on was how they would feel having seen her behaviors and also how upset I was - as this happened around the time my father was ill and passed away. She would tell her FOO- I was "keeping her from her grandchildren". In actuality, they were wary of her. We are still in contact with her, polite and cordial. The kids are young adults and have their own boundaries with her. But I would not put it past her to attempt to triangulate them against me and I was very worried each time she or some agent of her FOO tried to contact them as I feared she would do it.

It embarrassed her to not have contact with her grandchildren. All her friends and her FOO do. She did eventually re-own me I guess but I don't really know what happened.

Your situation is different. Although my mother "disowned" me, I didn't go NC with her as it didn't feel Ok to do that considering my father was deceased. Your parents must be younger, and they have each other. Seems they made their decision.

[kells76]

My husband and I are still talking about what to do, but we're thinking now about a simple email closer to the due date that says, "We just wanted to let you know that we will be having a child on this date." We aren't super comfortable with initiating contact, but we definitely think an email is better than a phone call. Any thoughts?

One thought, if your value is to share the info so that your niece isn't caught in the middle...

Consider sending a group email including other friends/family members/acquaintances along with your parents. It could be a way to notify them without the contact being so "charged" because "it's just you and them". CC'ing others on the email could be like having an interaction in a public setting -- for some pwPD's, being in public tones down the dysfunction.

Including others on the email (perhaps neighbors or other semi-close acquaintances) can push the email away from either extreme of "this is for close supportive family members and shares a ton of detail" or "this is FYI only and super dry". Could help put it squarely into BIFF territory (brief, informative, friendly, firm -- the way you'd talk to a coworker or neighbor).

And you could keep stuff vague, too: perhaps announcing a birth month (or season) instead of a due date. "So excited to welcome Baby Choosinghope in March [or springtime] next year! Your supportive thoughts and prayers are welcome"

Of course, pwPD's being who they are, they might see it as "proof" that you don't consider them "family" but just "acquaintances". Oh well... can't get around every misinterpretation.

[Choosinghope]

Notwendy,

I had to laugh a little when you wrote about how your mom disowned you but thought it wouldn't affect her relationship with your kids. The longer I'm in this world, the more I realize how deep the dysfunction can run, and just how incredibly sad it is. I'm so glad that your children have healthy boundaries with your mom. You are correct in that my mom and dad have each other, and they are younger (early 60s) and in good health. I also have three other sisters who they still have contact with and who logistically are in a better place to help them. Yes, they made their choice. I'm curious to see what the future brings.

Kells76,

Thank you for the suggestion. I hadn't considered that. I'll bring it up to my H as another option. Unfortunately, like you said, it will be taken the wrong way. But, everything would be taken the wrong way, so I guess that shouldn't be much of a consideration.