Can someone define this behavior? -- blocking people.

[Couper]

This isn't anything I haven't encountered before.  I just like to understand things so I can deal with them better.  I really don't like going out in public with my uBPDw because it's almost certain something embarrassing is going to happen.

Tonight we took the kids out to a park to see the fireworks.  Four of us and only two chairs.  We were set up out of the way and where we were was the start of a walking trail with a couple of steps leading up to it.  The wife and one of the kids occupy the steps sort to the rear of where I was.  There isn't much walking traffic, but finally a couple comes along and stands there politely for a bit:

uBPDw: "Oh, I'm sorry.  Do you want on the trail."

Couple:  "Yes, we do.  No worries!"

Right now, I already know what's going to happen.  She's not going to move, but past experience tells me to wait to say anything and she sits... and sits... and sits... and the couple is waiting patiently.  I know if I say anything to her there will be hell to pay and even if I waited 20 minutes, the excuse would still be that I didn't even give her time to get up.  So instead I told my kid to get up and let the nice people through.  I figured that even if she didn't follow suit, at least they could then get by.  It took her another ten seconds and then she finally moved after he did, the couple thanked them, and went on.

So that I could say something without saying something, I used the point to at least teach my kid and told him when you're blocking someone, get up -- don't just linger.  Think about how you would like to be treated if the roles were reversed and then she had to say something:

uBPDw:  "Well, they said 'no worries'.  It wasn't a problem."

Me: "They also said they wanted to use the trail when you asked them.  Their saying, 'no worries" was them being polite.  Do you think they wanted to stand there all night?"

She had no answer for that.  This is nothing new.  A couple of years ago at a restaurant, dinner is over, we're making our way out, and she wanted to stop and tell a waitress something (which was a very odd encounter itself).  We're stopped in a main aisle, enough for two people to pass comfortably.  We're all in a line on one side as she talks to the waitress and coming the other way is a young woman carrying a baby.  There's nobody else in the aisle.  Right as the young woman gets within a couple of feet of her, she steps directly into her path, blocks the woman almost causing her to crash into her, and won't move while she keeps talking to the waitress.  When she wouldn't respond to my telling her to move, I finally grabbed the back of her shirt and pulled her out of the way and apologized to the woman with the baby.

What in the hell causes this?  Someday she's going to run up against someone that's not so gracious about it and I'm inclined to just let them have at her.

 

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Couper:

She is exhibiting controlling behavior to an extreme, and being territorial to an extreme. By doing it, she believes she has control/power over them.

People with BPD or strong BPD traits can be very controlling.  In some, it is displayed as jealousy and a desire to control their partner and know where they are every minute.   

More normal people have some degree of being territorial, i.e. not wanting a  neighbor to access/use portions of your property without permission.  Then, there are some people who just aren't courteous and don't consider others, i.e people who leave their shopping cart in the middle of an aisle, as they venture off to look at something or get a sample.

I suspect your partner has other control issues.  What might they be?
 

[Cat Familiar]

In addition to what Naughty Nibbler mentioned about controlling behavior, what other indications of narcissism and lack of empathy have you noticed?

[once removed]

some people are just thoughtless and rude - some extremely thoughtless and rude. its something i experience every time i go to the grocery store, or drive.

the last concert i attended, my friend and i grabbed our spots early, and stood there for a while to maintain them. great spots. right as the concert was starting, a guy and his girlfriend walked directly in front of us and stood there; by that point, space was fairly tight, so it was the kind of thing that would be pretty difficult to be oblivious to, but i dont think they ever gave it much thought. one of my friends girlfriends was pretty in their face about it, and they adjusted a bit, but they werent going to move.

[Couper]

Thanks to all for the input.

In addition to what Naughty Nibbler mentioned about controlling behavior, what other indications of narcissism and lack of empathy have you noticed?

Oh cripes, how many examples do you want?  Those two involved other people.  I'll give you a classic one involving me.  To put it into context, I would say she's not "in your face" about these things.  I guess she's being passive-aggressive.  She wouldn't get up and tell those people on the trail, "screw you, I'm not getting up", she'd just pretend like she didn't hear them (even though she had just asked and gotten an answer AND acknowledged that she heard them because she repeated part of what they said).

A couple of years ago there was a book sale she wanted to go to.  When the barometric pressure is all over the place I have trouble with the plumbing in my head, headache with nausea sort of thing.  This was just such a day.  I wanted to go too, but told her I could feel it coming on and I'll go, but when I need to leave, I need to leave and she agreed.  So, we get there and were there long enough to walk every aisle and pick over everything (and could barely carry what we did have at that point) and I told her as I was getting worse and finally I was at my limit, we have plenty, let's check out and go.  Then she does what she does -- slips away and is going through more books she had already been through.  I keep telling her that I need to go and she just keeps right on shopping and not watching the kids and she's here and she's there and I tell her I'm going to throw-up in the middle of the book sale, let's go.  Finally, after a good while of this we get to the checkout area and I turn around and she's heading to the bathroom with one of the kids without saying anything (it's common for her to just leave the scene without saying anything and it wasn't a "potty emergency").

Another one.  Our town has a traffic circle and we went to see the Christmas tree lighting.  We had to park a few blocks away at a library parking lot and walk.  I can tell whenever she can hear me because she’ll go out of her way to do the opposite.    It never happens that we both do the same thing and the opposite only happens after a decision is made. She takes a kid and so do I and I'm still trying to get mine unloaded and I say, “Let’s go left, that’s the shortest and safest route” (the other sidewalk was cut up for repairs) and she starts hightailing it to the right.  I had my son and she had our toddler daughter.  So I said louder and louder, “We’re going left.  Turn left.  We’re going this way.”  and it almost seems she’s taking off faster so I let her go.  Though she’ll deny it now, she has told me in the past that whenever she is told to do something by anyone, she feels a compulsion to do the opposite whether it is in her best interest or not.  I went the way I intended and we got split up.  I can’t hike all over for no reason with my back hurting and it just didn't make sense.  We got there first and eventually reconnected and then she started in on me about why I went the other way and she says, “Well, I didn’t hear you”.  She definitely heard me and this is a recurring problem when out in public.  It must be some childish way of maintaining autonomy.    

I've even had it before when the kids were little that we'd return to the car and she'd have the kids in her charge and I'd be occupied loading something, and the next thing I know the kids are loose and she has disappeared to, whatever, return a cart or any excuse to otherwise split without saying anything.  When I said something like, "If you have to leave, you need to tell me you're leaving and to watch the kids -- communicate" and it's always something stupid like -- "You should have asked me if I was leaving."  Anything that a regular civil person will do, she will not.  In cases like that it really pissed me off because we're talking about the wellbeing of the kids.

[Cat Familiar]

So you’re dealing with an oppositional defiant disorder too!  

[Couper]

Ah crap, another term to add to the list?

I had to look up that one.  Yeah, it could fit:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3214601/

I have heard a number of stories from her school years.  Enough to see her as what's described there.  Several years ago she was crying like crazy and when I asked why she said so-and-so had died.  I had never heard of this person.  It was someone from her old neighborhood about her age.  This mystified me because I had never heard her mentioned or been introduced to her and now she's balling over her more than she has some family members.  She went on to tell me that she hated her and snubbed her in school because she was jealous of her getting all of this attention on account of her being diagnosed with something.  She died of MS, or some equally wretched long-term ailment that went on for years and years.  I told her that at some point it must have become evident that she was not faking and she said that yes, she knew, but she still hated her for getting all the attention (and she carried this hate into adulthood -- she was about 40 when this happened) and now she felt bad for it because she wasn't actually lying about being sick... despite the fact that this wasn't a new revelation.  It was all in a context that I don't think she actually felt bad for the person -- she was making it all about herself.

Never a dull moment.  You never know what you're going to wake up to day-to-day.     

[Ventak]

Never a dull moment.  You never know what you're going to wake up to day-to-day.     

Sadly, this is one of the things that is very attractive to me with my BPDw...  I get bored of humans much too easily and enjoy the challenge and roller-coaster.  I sometimes think I have a reverse stress reaction from how others react to stress, as I tend to thrive with what would stress others out.  Or perhaps it's because my birth-mother created the same chaos for me as a small child that her years in and out of foster care created for her and so that is my comfort zone... never made that connection before.

I believe my BPDw also suffers from oppositional defiant disorder, though differently.  She is not passive aggressive about it.. usually just slight attitude and unwillingness to adapt, with saying "don't tell me what to do".  Even something that isn't a directive but is worded in a way that could be taken as a directive will set her off...  "could you grab the blue one?"  "I'll grab whichever one I want to, and you'll like it" told as if it is a joke and she grabs the pink one.

[Couper]

I believe my BPDw also suffers from oppositional defiant disorder, though differently. 

I think I'm learning that seems to be a thing amongst BPD's.  Yours almost sounds playful about it and at least you can see that you're getting the pink one.  Mine is sullen and sabotaging and a documented liar.  She will agree to things verbally that she never has any intention of going along with, which is how I got into all of this mess in the first place.  In the lead-up to getting married and talking plans and goals and child rearing she agreed with all of the important stuff, but then I found out after it was too late that she never had any intention of cooperating with anything we talked about.  If I had any clue what was coming, I would have kicked her to the curb and moved on.  I was duped and, to her, I'm just a tool she uses to elicit pity from people so she can claim victim status. 

Amongst her circle, she trashes me, and my reputation is that of a loser and every other negative adjective you can imagine, so I can't really go into her world without having people behave awkwardly around me because people simply believe everything they are told.  I have spent my whole life striving to be a solid citizen, so all I know to do is stay out of her world as best I can and do what I can to keep her out of mine.  It's events like going to the fireworks the other night where the two worlds collide and then what do you do with that?  Disgrace by association.

Sorry for the rant!

   

[TheBatHammer]

I think I'm learning that seems to be a thing amongst BPD's.  Yours almost sounds playful about it and at least you can see that you're getting the pink one.  Mine is sullen and sabotaging and a documented liar.  She will agree to things verbally that she never has any intention of going along with, which is how I got into all of this mess in the first place.  In the lead-up to getting married and talking plans and goals and child rearing she agreed with all of the important stuff, but then I found out after it was too late that she never had any intention of cooperating with anything we talked about.

This is what happened with us, in a broader sense. And then she pretended we never had the conversations about the important stuff. Wonder how common that is?

[Ventak]

This is what happened with us, in a broader sense. And then she pretended we never had the conversations about the important stuff. Wonder how common that is?

With my BPDw, we happily collided on the important stuff so that hasn't become a problem.  But it is very frustrating that we come to agreement on something and then she just does the opposite.  Almost always I would have been fine with doing what we ended up doing anyway so it isn't clear to me why she doesn't just state her position from the start.  I believe she has a very non-confrontational behavior pattern... right up until she doesn't and things get really messy really fast.

[formflier]

My first impression/reaction to the passive stuff is to politely but directly call it out.

"Babe..can you move to let these patient people through?"  (then don't listen or participate in the rant later.  Be open to participating in a civil conversation.)

If she doesn't move, pull rank and deal with your child. 


Book store:  If agreement is reached and you go based on that agreement, when you need to leave let her know, then "As we agreed, I need to leave car leaves in 1 minute if you need a ride."  Then..let her deal with her abrogation.

Say that over and over.  Let her deal with her decision to abrogate.  If that means calling a cab, uber..whatever..

Again...no rants...but you are open to civil conversation.

If you do this consistently it may get better.

Tough spot.

Best,

FF

[Couper]

This is what happened with us, in a broader sense. And then she pretended we never had the conversations about the important stuff. Wonder how common that is?

Just thinking on phrasing my particular situation in a more simplistic way -- when she trashes me to other people to try and get sympathy, most of the things that she is telling them that I do (blame blame blame for her poor lot in life) are really things she does herself.

I can't speak to how common it is other than to say in my house it is very common, including pretending conversations never took place.  In the odd instance I can prove the conversation took place because I have something in writing or whatever, she will either deny harder (distort reality) or panic and go into overdrive trying to change the subject.

[formflier]

When you can prove it...you have something in writing...do you let her off the hook?

It's one thing to take a 10 minute break to catch your breath.  It's another thing to drop a conversation completely..and never bring it back up.

Best,

FF

[Couper]

My first impression/reaction to the passive stuff is to politely but directly call it out.

"Babe..can you move to let these patient people through?"  (then don't listen or participate in the rant later.  Be open to participating in a civil conversation.)

If she doesn't move, pull rank and deal with your child. 


Book store:  If agreement is reached and you go based on that agreement, when you need to leave let her know, then "As we agreed, I need to leave car leaves in 1 minute if you need a ride."  Then..let her deal with her abrogation.

Say that over and over.  Let her deal with her decision to abrogate.  If that means calling a cab, uber..whatever..

Again...no rants...but you are open to civil conversation.

If you do this consistently it may get better.

Tough spot.

Best,

FF

All very correct.  That's pretty much how things go down these days and, of course, a better path is always there with 20/20 hindsight rather than just being slapped with it in the heat of the moment.  The book thing is complicated because then I'd have to round up my kids, it's in a public place, no telling how she could spin that out of control.  I couldn't leave them there with her.  To make that situation even more of a potential nightmare, if I just rounded up my kids and left, there was a woman there we knew from church.  She probably would have gone straight to her and twisted the whole thing into God-knows-what.
 Today, I would either go by myself and not invite her (or afterwards even tell her that I went) or tell her to go without me.

As I've stated in other places, I've pretty much snoozed her.  I'm civil to her and I don't entertain her b.s., but I don't engage her in anything beyond what is absolutely necessary and I have enjoyed (tricky, because living this life isn't exactly joy) the longest period of peace we have had in over a decade.  That's a combination of me not feeding into her antics and me having a mindset of not letting her antics feed on me.  I'm still waiting to see what will bring it crashing down because it will happen eventually.  Her backing off as she has is purely an act.  She is not cured of anything.  Another good thing that has come of this is my refusal to play has caused her to go out and seek a new host and she has revealed a side of herself to others that they did not previously know.  So far as I'm concerned, she can go around discrediting herself to the world until there is nowhere left to go.  The only way the thing at the park the other night could have been any better is if she had done it to someone we know.


 

[Couper]

When you can prove it...you have something in writing...do you let her off the hook?

It's one thing to take a 10 minute break to catch your breath.  It's another thing to drop a conversation completely..and never bring it back up.

Best,

FF

Hell no.  I hold her feet to the fire.  She will usually go into panic mode and refuse to acknowledge it and, like a machine gun, start lobbing various unrelated topics at me to try and steer me off course.  I do not let her off the hook and under no instances do I allow her to distort reality.

[Notwendy]

This is disordered for an adult, but it reminds me of young children on a playground playing well taking turns, and then along comes the bully- who knows well that if they actually hit a kid, they will get in trouble so instead, just sits at the top of the slide, not letting any other kids use it.

A few bullies are sociopaths in training, they just like to cause distress for others. Some are hurting and feel out of control and take it out on others. Some are insecure and that makes them feel they have power.

The adult terms are oppositional defiant disorder, passive aggressive, lack of empathy, but it's rude. Most people are too polite to get into it with rude people but at some point, someone's going to say something.

[Couper]

it reminds me of young children on a playground ...

Yes!  Perfect analogy!

A few bullies are sociopaths in training, they just like to cause distress for others. Some are hurting and feel out of control and take it out on others. Some are insecure and that makes them feel they have power.

Do I have to pick any single one?  I feel like all of that fits and, sometimes, all at the same time.  I'm nobody's lapdog and we have had very pointed discussions about such things before.  She "knows" these things about herself, but what it all boils down to is she's not going to stop because she feels entitled.

The adult terms are oppositional defiant disorder, passive aggressive, lack of empathy, but it's rude. Most people are too polite to get into it with rude people but at some point, someone's going to say something.

Funny you should mention that.  After last year, as she was revealing herself on social media more than she ever has and drawing lines in the sand, she caught the ire of a friend who all that time had observed, but said nothing.  I wish I could post it here.  Someone she has been friends with for 20 years and one of the most harmless people in the world.  It wasn't a bar brawl Jerry Springer Show-type rebuke, but that of a friend expressing pity and explaining to her that many in her circle are choosing not to engage with her because of her refusal to be civil and telling her that she needed to change her tone.  Two paragraphs, beautifully written.  More than anything, it helped me to see that now others see.  I can only hope that they are starting to doubt all the nasty tales she has probably told them about me through the years rather than thinking I am supportive of her behavior.

[formflier]

Hell no.  I hold her feet to the fire.  She will usually go into panic mode and refuse to acknowledge it and, like a machine gun, start lobbing various unrelated topics at me to try and steer me off course.  I do not let her off the hook and under no instances do I allow her to distort reality.

OK...so how does this resolve?  Does she continue to "deny" or does she "come around"?

Note:  Holding feet to fire might also not be the best approach.  Often times taking a break and then offering an "easy door to the truth" or "hard door to further confrontation" will lead to acknowledgment and moving past the issue.  Lots of hard nuance here..and I'm sure lots of details I'm missing.

Best,

FF

[Couper]

OK...so how does this resolve?  Does she continue to "deny" or does she "come around"?

Thanks for your input.  I can give you more, and more recent, examples.  They can get a little long, but if you have the time for it, it's not a problem for me as I type them up when it happens.  Probably best to look at the more recent ones because my understanding has changed over time as I became wise to things.

(I started type up a more concise reply, but it just wasn't working without the proper context.  Below is another instance that spells out the aftermath.)

During the week I was asked to go bid a potential job on a Saturday morning.  I told her a few days in advance that I intended to do this and there was no objection from her.  She asked if I was going to stop at a store we like to visit and I told her no because of what I was driving. (Important, remember this.)  Fast forward to Saturday morning – I got up and quietly left the house by 7:00.  (She stays up very late and gets up late.)  Everyone was sleeping except my boy and I said goodbye to him and told him where I was going.  A couple of hours later, I get a text asking what I want for breakfast, her assuming I was elsewhere on the property.  I knew what was coming next so I called because I don't bicker over text.  When I told her thanks, but I wasn’t on the property, that I was out looking at the job I told her about, it was an instant, “You never told me that”.  That’s reflex, every time something like this happens that she’s forgotten about (or knows but is lying), it’s instant deflection as though she’s done something wrong.  After a short, pointless, circular discussion about who said what, I told her it didn't matter, I'm not there, I'm with someone, we'll talk when I get back, and I excused myself and hung up.  Needless to say, for the rest of the visit and lunch my mind is now in the wrong place.  She was so insistent that I started to doubt myself about ever telling her.  On the way back I got near that store and thought "I should swing by but can't, shoot" and then I remembered the thing about her asking if I was stopping at that store and telling her "no" because of what I was driving, so I was certain the discussion took place.  The insinuation was as though I had purposely slighted her, like it always is.  If it had been true that I hadn’t told her, benefit of the doubt couldn’t have been that I forgot, it’s always that it was a purposeful slight.  Like it happened because I was trying to get one-up on her and make her doubt herself.  When I got home, I let her start to tear into me: "You NEVER told me anything about going!  You never said you were going anywhere!" and I let her dig her own hole and then I pointed out the thing about her asking if I was stopping at that store and my giving her the reason for why I was not.  Ooops.  Now it was that I had told her I was going on Friday morning and not Saturday and saying it’s not that I didn’t tell her, it’s that I told her a different day.  Well, that’s not what she said on the phone, nor what she said when I got back, and I would have had no reason to tell her Friday and, in turn, she didn't ask me on Friday why I didn't go.  After I catch her contradiction, she deflects this way and that way like a trapped animal trying to get out of a cage and is trying desperately to not acknowledge the truth but continues to blame me.  I told her outright that she is trying to distort things and I won't accept that.  My holding her feet to the fire to get some kind of acknowledgement for at least one of the contradictions not being true went nowhere and I ended it stating the facts and that she needed to own what she was trying to do.  

Later I see a message where she tells the friend how I was adamant that I had told her I was going but that I never really did (no mention of the Friday thing)…. and that she wanted to go to a craft show that morning and it ruined her plans.  Ah ha.  So, more lying by omission.  The craft show is something I never was told about and I’m banking that I wasn’t told after the fact because she knows she never said anything about it.  My current theory is she was going to get up that morning, try to throw a wrench into my plans with the craft show (make me choose between her and someone else again), and couldn't wake herself up to do it.  She got pity from the friend and the friend, as always, was there ready and waiting to pour fuel on the fire.  Two times in the future I have had proper occasion to bring it up again but she will not acknowledge the truth, never has told me about the craft show, and continues to not accept any responsibility for the conflict.  In my eyes it is unresolved, but I cannot force resolution and she will likely never get there.  She has picked up and moved on to several other new conflicts since then.

[worriedStepmom]

Have you read our article on JADE? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Most arguments over stuff like this will never be resolved to your satisfaction.  The BPD partner is not going to admit they were wrong.  It's too hard for them.

Most of us try to JADE - Justify, Argue/Attack, Defend, or Explain.  That is using logic to try to change their feelings.

It's usually best not to do any of that.  Explain once, then let it go.

[Couper]

Have you read our article on JADE? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Most arguments over stuff like this will never be resolved to your satisfaction.  The BPD partner is not going to admit they were wrong.  It's too hard for them.

Most of us try to JADE - Justify, Argue/Attack, Defend, or Explain.  That is using logic to try to change their feelings.

It's usually best not to do any of that.  Explain once, then let it go.

Yes I have, thanks.  It is very useful.  All of this is in the context of when it happened.  The relationship has changed a lot over time.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have just snoozed her (my word) and life has gotten better in the sense of less fighting, but still sucks to be attached to someone like this and you can't always avoid all instances of interaction. 

 

[formflier]

Hey..so how do things resolve when you have "proof"?

As in..how does it end?  Does she ever accept she is wrong?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I need to expand on earlier advice I gave you. 

The advice about "politely and directly calling it out".  I still suspect that is the best way forward, at least for a while to see how she reacts to you consistently doing this.

However...

You could also take the stance that it's not your issue to solve.

Let her solve it with waitresses, people wanting to get on a trail..or whatever.

Either way it's a tough spot.

Best,

FF

[Couper]

Hey..so how do things resolve when you have "proof"?

As in..how does it end?  Does she ever accept she is wrong?

No, never.  She'll just shift gears, go more off the rails, start crying, "Right, it's always me again, I'm always the one that has to change", you know the drill.  She has even declared before that, "words don't have any specific meaning, a word can mean anything you want it to" which is pretty unnerving because there is no end in sight with resolving / accepting anything with that kind of thinking.

[Couper]

However...

You could also take the stance that it's not your issue to solve.

Let her solve it with waitresses, people wanting to get on a trail..or whatever.

Either way it's a tough spot.

True, and in many cases that's what I do these days, but in a case like with the people on the trail, it's not just in me to sit there and ignore it while some poor stranger is being done wrong.  In my mind, then I become a party to the wrongdoing.  If it's one-on-one, that's one thing, but once the public is involved it's all different.  What I've come to accept is there is no ideal outcome and that's what's so awful about it -- having to pick from a list of least-worst outcomes... and be trained to do it at a moments notice without warning.

If it happens so often when I'm out with her, it makes me wonder what's going on when I'm not around.  

 

[formflier]

No, never.  She'll just shift gears, go more off the rails, start crying, "Right, it's always me again, I'm always the one that has to change", you know the drill.  She has even declared before that, "words don't have any specific meaning, a word can mean anything you want it to" which is pretty unnerving because there is no end in sight with resolving / accepting anything with that kind of thinking.

So they really don't resolve?

As in she never admits or understands that the actually said the thing she is recorded saying?

Want to make sure I get this right...

Best,

FF

[Couper]

So they really don't resolve?

As in she never admits or understands that the actually said the thing she is recorded saying?

Want to make sure I get this right...

Like in terms of sincere apology, hug, make up, lesson learned, move on? -- no. 

Admits: In the very rare instance she admits something, it is with a lot of contempt and not sincere.

Understands: I would have to be inside her head to provide a genuine answer to that.  In the instance about my morning work trip, I do believe she understands because I know she selectively fed different people different narratives to engineer the response she wanted.  That has happened more than once.  Other situations are not so clear.

   

[TheBatHammer]

Just thinking on phrasing my particular situation in a more simplistic way -- when she trashes me to other people to try and get sympathy, most of the things that she is telling them that I do (blame blame blame for her poor lot in life) are really things she does herself.

I can't speak to how common it is other than to say in my house it is very common, including pretending conversations never took place.  In the odd instance I can prove the conversation took place because I have something in writing or whatever, she will either deny harder (distort reality) or panic and go into overdrive trying to change the subject.

Right, same here, it's like a weird form of projection when they can't face the truth.

[formflier]

Like in terms of sincere apology, hug, make up, lesson learned, move on? -- no. 

Admits: In the very rare instance she admits something, it is with a lot of contempt and not sincere.
 
   

So..uncomfortable question/issue.  One to ponder for a bit.


Help me understand the wisdom of making further agreements with a person that abrogates agreements.

Best,

FF