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Author Topic: BPD mother took out home equity loan.  (Read 386 times)
Notwendy
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« on: July 21, 2021, 09:58:19 PM »

One of my concerns about my BPD mother is that she doesn't manage money and spends it recklessly.

I just found out she took out a home equity loan, not for renovations but for spending. My dad did pay off the home so they owned it, at one point.

She does make payments on it, I think, but she also doesn't think there's any way she could lose her home with this loan. I found the papers, the loan is almost as much as the house is worth.

She's not mentally sound but can pull it together so she would not be deemed mentally incompetent.

Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this? If she were to spend all the equity in her home would she be homeless or are there Medicare financed nursing homes?

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beatricex
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2021, 08:32:40 AM »

Hi Notwendy,
My understanding, and this probably varies by state in the US, is that the more money one has when going into a home, the higher the quality of care.  So if she has no money, she will still qualify, but it's not going to be a nice home.

I just gathered this because my husband's mom (she is now passed) had to go into assisted living due to Alzheimers.  She lived quite awhile with the Alzheimers, I think it was close to 7 years.  In the end she did not recongize anyone, and needed constant care. I just remember that my husband's sister was very happy that her home sold for what it did because she then qualified for one of the nicer assisted living homes.

You could probably look into this before it's actually time to pick one.  But I do know that at the point she was handed over to the custody of the state (not sure if that is the correct term, but you understand what I mean), all the money went to the state, it's not like there was some left in a savings account that she could tap into. 

b
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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2021, 10:45:03 AM »

Hi Beatrice-
Thanks-
That's what I assumed. My mother is so controlling and secretive, it was a difficult interaction to just get some information from her. Immediately accusing her kids of wanting to get our hands on her money. We don't want her money.

She will never voluntarily leave to go to assisted living . In the event that we did have to sell the house for her, all of it would go into her care. Dad planned well for her and she had a comfortable income. My concern is that if she needed to take out the loan, it's because she used up her savings. She won't let me see her accounts. Ironically, her kids are probably the most trustworthy people in her circle with money and we are the ones she keeps in the dark. Yet, she allows others to take advantage of her.

In the same conversation where I was asking about this loan, the then accused me of going through her purse and taking something. When I asked what was missing she snarled "none of your business".
I haven't even seen her purse and wouldn't take anything from it.


This all makes me very sad for her. She needs help but she won't let us have the information to help her and she's verbally abusive.
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beatricex
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 11:44:51 AM »

yes, that is very sad and I feel for you. 

My mom is very much the same, she will tell total strangers stuff, but if we ask, it's a secret. 
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GaGrl
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 11:55:42 AM »

This is concerning.

Anticipating future needs, Medicare pays for a rehab or nursing home for up to 90 days after a hospitalization or accident. After that, the patient must pay. My mother stayed in rehab two weeks after the 90 day limit, and with her private insurance, it cost about $3,000. I think $6-8k is typical for skilled nursing care situations.

When funds are exhausted and private insurance is not paying anything, alternatives are selling the house to find care, or moving to a Medicaid status, which essentially puts the patient in indigency. There may be other ways to provide care, but my mom had funds in addition to the monthly pension she received from my dad's arrangements , so we had a private caregiver, home health care, then finally home hospice care. I don't see your situation being able to handle any kind of home care that requires your 24 hour attendance. My mom could be difficult, but she wasn't abusive.

One thing you might proactively do is to contact the business office at a local assisted living facility and have an in-depth conversation about "what ifs."
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 01:33:47 PM »

Thanks Ga girl,

You have been a wonderful caregiver to your mother. On my part, I have tried and she's so uncooperative and verbally abusive, it's not possible- for me and also her caretakers can only put up with so much. She's oppositional and even enjoys seeing others hurt and frustrated.

She has what would be a comfortable income in a nice retirement place but her issue is that she spends recklessly and does not live according to her means, which is actually generous. This has been ongoing. My father at one point was in debt over her spending.

She doesn't want to go to any kind of home and my hope is that she's able to maintain herself where she is, because another place isn't an option. When Dad got sick we were concerned about her mismanaging money and wanted to help with  a budget for her but she doesn't want any kind of boundary.

It would be a sad thing if she was indigent, but I have no input or control over her behavior.  with
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zachira
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 03:20:20 PM »

I am wondering if you are concerned your mother might become indigent and you would  have to consider letting her move in with you. It might help you feel more relieved if you sit down with a case worker for geriatric patients and examine all the worst case scenarios and plan ahead.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 09:28:56 PM »

Thanks Zachira- she has a social worker involved and I will call her and ask. That's good idea. Moving in with me is not an option. I hope she doesn't become indigent as it would be awful, but we have tried to assist her with her finances to prevent this from happening and she won't allow it
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 09:33:28 PM »

My mom is very much the same, she will tell total strangers stuff, but if we ask, it's a secret.

It's so frustrating.

She's also condescending to me and says things like " it's not rocket science but you can't figure it out" and "don't you dare lecture me" if I try to advise her. She's just so verbally mean.

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beatricex
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 10:53:23 PM »

hi notwendy,
My mom too. She could write the book on verbal abuse, or I guess the PC term these days is relational aggression.

Mean girls.

My mom is a big mean girl in her 70's Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).  Pretty sure she still calls the cops on people.  My mom once told me this is how she "makes friends".  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I get it ok?  One day we will have to exchange phone numbers, your Mom and my Mom can hang out at their medicaid dump.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).  They can badmouth the staff together and call their kids (yes she still calls me that. i am almost 50) and dump on us too.

all's i know is she's not living with me

hey, what if u just let gooooo?  i am not suggesting abandonment, i mean what if we faced our consequences (like adults) and let go.  sometimes i liken my mom to a very bad behaved pit bull.  She can't really live on her own...but the woman is Not safe around children either (Total honesty alert).

b

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Notwendy
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 06:36:01 AM »

Hi Beatrix,

Interesting point you make as my mom was "pretty and popular" in her day and I can envision her as one of the "mean girls" then. With her friends though, she's a different persona- charming, personable. It's amazing to see her change. She could be snarling at me and then a neighbor comes over and she changes into charming. Our mothers together might make quite the pair.

Letting go of what she does to herself seems the best route. It would cause another family rift as her FOO would be horrified at me. I just hope she is able to maintain herself.

She also has a sense of when she's pushed me too far. I visited her recently and after a lot of drama and verbal abuse, the then becomes sweet and says " are we OK? You're my daughter and I love you" and I cringe when she says this because it's not sincere and she's faking it because right before that she's snarling at me, and calling me an idiot.

Then she offers to reimburse me for some of my travel expenses. Somehow this feels manipulative too. Either she knows I won't take it or is thinking I might? I have no idea but no- I won't accept money from her.
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Turkish
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 09:58:51 PM »

Yes, I was on the receiving end of criminal accusations and had the cops called on me after I took her back to her hoard home. When living with us, she accused the kids of going through her papers. I sincerely hope I don't become like this with my kids.

Since my mom never followed though to put her acreage back into her name after her husband died, she didn't technically own it. Even in bad shape, she could likely have sold it for $200k easily.

When she was put into conservatorship, Medi-Cal (medicaid) took over and paid for her care above what she received from SSI. In such situations, residents are left with a few dozen dollars put into a house account for spending money. They also used her SSI to purchase a cremation plan. I never bothered to rescue the property from back taxes as it wouldn't be mine. If hers, it would be liquidated for her care.

There is a thing called a Medicare trust that seems to be binding if put in place at least 5 years before the owner requires care. In your mom's situation, she won't agree to it. And it sounds like you'd basically inheirt debt anyway, even if you were interested.

She might end up "indigent" as GaGrl says, but she'll be taken care of. Being kin, you'll be kept in the loop and involved in decisions once your mother is no longer deemed to be able to properly advocate for herself.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 06:54:16 AM »

Hi Turkish,

I recall your story and how you tried to have your mom home with you. Like you, I wish this was possible but I know from my mother's behavior that the toxic emotional climate she creates would be horrible for all in the home.


I also know she would not cooperate with any transparency or plans. She didn't want us to know about the loan. We found the papers in her home and she had a fit- but she actually asked us to help her go through them but didn't anticipate we'd find this. We don't just go through her things. She put them out there and asked us to help and then got angry at us for looking.

She then said she would have told us and blamed us for looking.

I think she will have enough from SSI and if she needs a medicare home then it's reassuring that she would have one. I feel sad for her situation, but she has created this.
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zachira
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2021, 09:11:05 AM »

Notwendy,
Thank you for being a role model on how to have healthy boundaries with a difficult elderly parent with BPD. I am sure there are many people reading this thread, and the boundaries you are setting are giving them the courage to decide how they will proceed with a parent similar to your mother without feeling guilty or being coerced into a caretaking role that would be abusive and not in the best interests of the rest of the family. 
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2021, 10:05:52 AM »

Hi NotWendy,
It may vary from state to state as others have noted, but I do know that in our state, once you run out of money and convert to mediCal, your only options are skilled nursing homes that accept MediCal, and most other residential care settings like Assisted living are off the table. My uBPDm was recently in the ER after a very bad fall where she broke several bones and she initially refused surgery. It took multiple Dr's to try to determine if she had capacity. After 5 medical professionals assessed her, the admitting Dr. said that although she appears to have capacity, she was irrational. Yep, that about sums it up. Talking to a social worker or private senior care manager would be helpful. Even a trusted placement counselor (nobody off the internet, a local placement person referred by the social worker). My uBPDm is aging and blowing through her money at an alarming rate. But there are professionals out there to answer your questions and hopefully ease the anxiety about what will happen if her money runs out.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2021, 06:44:38 PM »

Zachira- thanks, this is a tough boundary. It feels so unnatural. Friends my age are helping their parents in different ways. I know though that I tried, and it didn't just stress me out emotionally. When my father was sick, my parents stressed me to the point that I felt bad physically. BPD mom did not care that I drove hours to help them, or if I slept at night, or that I left my own family to come help them. I know that this boundary has to be there- because my mother would run me ragged and it wouldn't be enough. It's not just me- she conducts drama with her caregivers and there's a constant turnover- either she finds something wrong with them ( she finds something wrong with everyone who tries to help her) or they leave, but at least it's their job and they aren't emotionally involved with her.

My friends have parents who were difficult in their old age. Difficult- I could handle that to some extent, but my mother is toxic and cruel. She asked us to go through some things with her, then makes you sit there waiting until she decides when to look at them. So you just sit there until she's ready but you can't do anything else as she calls you back if you do. She has sneered at me, mocked me, called me stupid. If I suggest something she snaps "don't you dare tell me what to do" and she lies so I don't know if she's telling the truth or not.

I feel sorry for her as she's elderly and alone and it's so sad. Yet we have tried so hard to avoid this. Starting when Dad was ill, I wanted them to move into an independent living situation with optional assisted living so he could get that. He did need assistance with daily tasks. She would then be able to continue her activities while he got the care she needed. They would have none of that. I also wanted to help her manage the finances and she'd have none of that. Not only did they refuse - they got angry at me.

I've done some nice things for her. Our whole family would travel to see her, which involved some travel cost, and yet, she finds something to complain about, to get angry about, to verbally abuse me about. Later on she will call and act as if nothing happened and thank me, but without any mention of how she behaved. It's the most frustrating thing. I can't just do something nice for her, she finds some thing I did wrong.

Yes, it's a boundary but it's not a boundary I wanted to have. Still, I know I have to have it and so I choose it.




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Notwendy
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2021, 06:53:51 PM »

Madeline- thanks, she has a social worker helping her. Most likely the social worker doesn't know. I think the worst case scenario is that she may still have some choices but not the ones she might choose. I will contact her to let her know the situation and discuss it.


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zachira
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2021, 07:42:32 PM »

Notwendy,
You are a kind and caring person. It hurts very deeply to not be able to help your mother because of how she abuses you. It would mean so much to be able to have a loving goodbye with your parents before they leave this world.
I have felt so sad that I could not really be there for my mom at the end of her life with my siblings abusing her and mom continuing to abuse me. I would so much like to be able to be kind and caring with my abusive family members and know it would set me up for unbearable abuse if I did so.
I know it also hurt to not be able protect your father from your mother's abuse. My father too enabled my mother.
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2021, 09:20:40 PM »

 know it would set me up for unbearable abuse if I did so.

this is it exactly- unbearable abuse. I think a loving relationship can only happen with family who are able to love, and ours isn't able to.
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