If their audience is removed, will they still act out?

[Leaf56]

This is a question I’ve been pondering and is correlative to my other topic asking if anyone has stopped helping their BPD adult child.

So after the parent audience is removed, I assume they then turn to BF/GFs, other relatives, therapists, whomever. But I wonder what happens when they’ve completely exhausted their audience. I mean, it’s all just a performance for the benefit of whoever is willing to participate. They can finally complete a suicide, I suppose, and that puts an end to it. But if they don’t have the nerve, is it really possible for them to stop as long as there are other people in the world who will engage with them?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[marzipan67]

Good question! What I have observed with my daughter, is that she will go to others if I am not available for a hit of drama. There have been times where she has called, left a message, and when I call back she rudely dismissed me because she is "on the other line with a friend." So like a telemarketer, she will automatically dial the next audience member if one is not available.

As  I shared in my other post, she ran through all my friends, and when I was on FB I found that I was getting unfriended for what seemed to be no reason. So I hid my friends list, suspecting she had said or done something which made them prudently withdraw. So, I am sure that they are not lacking in people to charm and con! They are very convincing when they represent themselves as poor little orphans with no one to love or care for them! 

[Leaf56]

Yes, exactly! But if we talk about them this way with other people, we just confirm the things they’ve said about us to those people, so we can’t say anything at all without making ourselves look bad. And all we want to say is “if you only knew what a devoted and good mother I was, but only a complete masochist would continue to take what I’ve taken for the past X number of years!” But we can’t even say that without appearing suspect. It’s 100% lose/lose.

[Leaf56]

Ok, but back to my question. On another thread I read that someone's teen daughter had hit her head on a plate-glass window and shattered it while being released from a hospital stay. I venture to guess that that would not have happened had there not been an audience. So that brings me to some personal ruminations as well as a defense against anyone who would say, "but you don't understand the inner pain that leads these kids to acting this way" because I most certainly do.

I began suicidal ideation at the age of 13. I didn't tell anyone, and I never acted out in any way. I was a model student and daughter. I was scrupulously respectful and polite toward my loving, supportive parents. I appreciated everything they did for me, and I didn't want to put a wrinkle into their lives with the idea that their very successful daughter wanted nothing more than to kill herself. I was highly independent in thought and action and longed to get out in the world and show it what I had. However, the suicidal depression was my constant companion. At 17, after several years of silently suffering the indescribable baseless pain, I told the adult leader of the church youth group I was a member of that I was suicidal. She respected my wishes and did not tell my parents but told me that I should tell them so I did. As expected, they weren't able to understand, and I tried to make the idea go away for them by telling them I was now fine. But I continued to feel that way after I left for college, living through tortuous existential pain for two more years, until it finally subsided soon after I entered a loving relationship with my first boyfriend at age 20. I spent the next 10 years trying to sort out the why of it, and I was worried about having children of my own in case this was a heritable affliction.

Armed with my knowledge, and certain, based on all I'd read about psychology, that my problem must've been somehow caused by the parenting I'd had (I now know that it absolutely wasn't), I vowed to be a completely present, attached mom, who would be understanding and open and talk about my kids' emotions whenever they needed to, but who would set firm limits and expect age-appropriate advancement toward self-sufficiency. My first-born ended up with BPD. So, *I* had much of the same inner life of a person BPD and never acted out. What's the difference? Why do they act out and I didn't? Is it that this version of BPD is really a combo of BPD and narcissistic PD, or, perish the thought, psychopathy? 

[beatricex]

hi Leaf56,
Thank you for your insights, you are extremely enlighted (also brave to admit to yourself all of your own inner turmoil).  I can see you have done a lot of work and admire that.

I think the questions you ask are good ones.  In the case of the BPD's I know, yes, they need supply.  The audience is essential.  My step daughter has now cut off both her bio mom and her Dad (my husband) so she only has her sister and husband and his family.  I'm curious who she will turn on next, since the obvious suspects have been cut off.  Is her sister next?

Weirdly, we don't have a relationship with either of them right now, but at the advice of a marriage counselor are not "chasing" them either.  It will be interesting who holds out the longest.  I suspect since they need the audience (we don't) they will be the ones to cave first.  Even if it's just more drama of "I hate you."

Keep posting, I really appreciate what you're sharing, it's interesting.
 
b

[Leaf56]

Thanks, Beatrice, I appreciate that. The more experimenting I do with my son with not giving him any attention, the more I realize that the sooner we as parents (or in any relationship with a BPD) disengage from the person the sooner things will start to change. For whatever reason, they are basically stuck in the toddler stage of development. They figured something out a long time ago that worked for them and until the pattern is interrupted they'll happily continue it to get whatever it is they want.

[beatricex]

I have been pondering your question, is this psychopathy?

I think there are elements in the BPDs I know.  I see masochism and sadomasichism.  It is like watching a toddler touch a hot stove, then they touch the hot stove again and again!

But because they are emotionally a toddler we feel sorry for them.  It cracks me up sometimes that there is so much emphasis put on empathizing with Them.  What about us?  We should empathize with us! I guess that is one of the things that maybe prevents me from getting more therapy.  I don't want to pay someone half my age to tell me I should empathize with my BPD, when that is exactly what I have been doing for the last 50 years which is causing me so much grief. 

I would be Ok with paying someone to tell me:  you have a psychopath after you, RUN!  To me that is the more practical advice.

b

[Leaf56]

Ha! Of course if it were anyone else but our own child, who we grew inside our own bodies and lovingly nourished for years, we WOULD run. At least I would. It’s the fact that it’s this person that you yourself put so much time into, smiling and cooing adoringly at for years, wiping his bottom, nursing through illness, attending countless hours of concerts, sports practices and games, setting up and hosting play dates, preparing food for, and on and on. And then knowing for a fact that absolutely nothing happened in their childhood that could have caused this aberrant personality to develop. No neglect, no abuse, no over coddling, no nothing. It goes against anything we’ve ever learned about child development. And yes, to have clueless therapists tell you completely off the mark things. Of course, we empathize with our children. We always have. Psychology has got to do better! I’ve come to believe that  even the Marsha Linehan has no clue what she’s talking about. As another poster said, we are being sent down very expensive rabbit holes with not a whit of evidence that any of it helps.

[Flossy]

This is a question I’ve been pondering and is correlative to my other topic asking if anyone has stopped helping their BPD adult child.

So after the parent audience is removed, I assume they then turn to BF/GFs, other relatives, therapists, whomever. But I wonder what happens when they’ve completely exhausted their audience. I mean, it’s all just a performance for the benefit of whoever is willing to participate. They can finally complete a suicide, I suppose, and that puts an end to it. But if they don’t have the nerve, is it really possible for them to stop as long as there are other people in the world who will engage with them?

I believe they never exhaust their audience because they don't care if their audience is related to them or attached to them. I used to work in a Psych Unit and the performances of people with BPD were spectacular. (They are no longer admitted to public hospitals in Australia due to the futility of trying to treat them).

So, even the audience of a healthcare worker is enough for them. They rotate between and recycle audiences from the past and use their beguiling nature to get an audience momentarily even if it's just a customer service person engaging with them for one minute.

I have noticed that pwBPD regularly re-invent themselves. Change locations, FB Pages, Surnames etc etc.

I don't think they care if their social status reduces over time, even if they become homeless. If they cared they would behave in order to have a home again.

Perhaps there is a level of Psycopathy, brain damage or mental retardation. There is certainly a high level of stupidity. Because stupid people don't learn life lessons. Sorry if that word offends anyone. I am just pondering and throwing it out there.

I do believe there is an element that the 'experts" are not considering. something is missing , a hormone, a part of the brain that doesn't work.

Residential Training and Tools are not enough to change their behaviours, at the most they can manage the behaviours. The reason for the disorder may lie in the inability to change. As in Autism Spectrum Disorder cannot be changed as it is a real physical difference in a human being compared to a Neurotypical person.

Also Narcissists on the high end of the Spectrum are labelled as Psychopaths. It could be an offshoot of that. I dont know. I am not being cold or judgemental. My husband has Aspergers so I do know something of  thinking and behaviours that are not neurotypical. PS He is not the husband who fathered my daughter and was only diagnosed last year after 30 years together.

It seems there are elements of several kinds of atypical disorders in BPD to me.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, we are so on the same page! I can’t wait to dive into this latest post of yours and will do so later this morning US East coast time!

[Flossy]

I found this study.

Abstract on Borderline Personality Disorder with Psychopathic Traits
Abstract
Background
Borderline personality disorder has been related to personality traits such as antisocial traits, impulsivity or neuroticism. However, little attention has been given to psychopathic traits and the role they play on the disorder.
Objective
To review the relationship between psychopathic traits and borderline personality disorder.
Methods
A review of scientific literature between 1980 and 2017 was carried out. Papers were in English and had to relate psychopathic traits to borderline personality disorder. A total of 52 articles were included in the study. After full text revision, eighteen papers were selected for review.
Results
This review suggests an association between borderline personality disorder and the factor 2 of the concept of "psychopathy", but not between BPD and factor 1. Previous literature is not conclusive about the influence of gender on psychopathic features present on BPD patients.
Conclusions
According to the findings recorded in this review, an epidemiological and phenomenological relationship of BPD syndrome and the psychopathic syndrome can be confirmed. However, whether this relationship reflects real comorbidity or is the result of a nosological overlapping of the impulsive/unstable diagnostic criteria of BPD and the impulsive items of factor 2 of psychopathy cannot be resolved as yet.
 Report
https://clinmedjournals.org/articles/cmrcr/clinical-medical-reviews-and-case-reports-cmrcr-5-227.php?jid=cmrcr
 
...and there are many more. Here's one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323706/

...and there is MRI evidence on physical differences in the brain of pwBPD
"Researchers have used MRI to study the brains of people with BPD. MRI scans use strong magnetic fields and radio waves to produce a detailed image of the inside of the body. The scans revealed that in many people with BPD, 3 parts of the brain were either smaller than expected or had unusual levels of activity."

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EZEarache]

They are very convincing when they represent themselves as poor little orphans with no one to love or care for them! 

OMG, my exwBPD just used this approach on me on Friday. Tears in her eyes, "I have no one else to talk about this with." I totally fell for it and did a bunch of validation.

In her case, most of her family is dead, or estranged. I wish I had a time machine to see how the estrangement occurred, though.

Thank you for pointing this trait out!

[EZEarache]

I would be Ok with paying someone to tell me:  you have a psychopath after you, RUN!  To me that is the more practical advice.

My therapist actually more or less does tell me this. In our last session he said, "You still seemed surprised by this behavior for some reason."

Wish I didn't...

[Leaf56]

Flossy,

You said: "Residential Training and Tools are not enough to change their behaviours, at the most they can manage the behaviours."

I agree.

You said: "I do believe there is an element that the 'experts" are not considering. something is missing , a hormone, a part of the brain that doesn't work."

I agree that the so-called experts are missing a lot and not considering so much stuff because they've been mired down in the idea that this is caused by bad parenting for so long.

You said: "I used to work in a Psych Unit and the performances of people with BPD were spectacular."

I would love to hear your stories about this!

Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about the question I posted to start this thread—If their audience is removed, will they still act out?—and I have some new thoughts on it. So on the obvious level, the answer is no, they won't act out without an audience and it doesn't matter who it is, as Flossy says above. But then I had a deeper thought. I think that it's quite possible that even if their audience is removed they will still exhibit BPD behaviors, but not because they'd do it in a vacuum as would schizophrenics, but because they are incapable of ever being unengaged with the person/people for whom they are performing even when those people aren't there. Bear with me here, it's kind of a complicated idea. So while someone here might say, "No, they won't do it when they no longer have an audience and here's my proof: My daughter wasn't in touch with me for 20 years and lived in a hut by herself in Alaska, but she still burned down her hut," for example, I now think that that's not actually proof. I think that no matter how much time has passed or where they live etc. that they are in an imaginary struggle with you as "internalized parent" for the rest of their lives. In other words, in their heads and while they're exhibiting any BPD behavior, they will still be thinking, "I'll show them, I'll kill myself [or insert other destructive behavior] and then they'll be sorry/have to acknowledge that they caused this" or whatever. Every day of their life, whether or not they communicate it TO us at all, they're engaging in BPD behaviors—such as (a) keeping the grandchild from us, (b) cutting their arms with razors, (c) living in filth, (d) getting fired from jobs, (e) getting arrested, (f) abusing drugs, etc. etc.—because WE (not just parents but anyone) are always on their minds and because we are always on their minds, my guess is that they think that they are always on our minds. And even if we are not even aware it's happening, they're engaging in BPD behavior because they are still engaged in—what?—a power struggle? A performance? The sheer joy of knowing they're successfully manipulating someone? And when you start thinking about it in those terms, it also becomes easier to disengage because you realize that if you don't, you're just continuing to feed their BPD behavior.

[Flossy]

Flossy,And even if we are not even aware it's happening, they're engaging in BPD behavior because they are still engaged in—what?—a power struggle? A performance? The sheer joy of knowing they're successfully manipulating someone? And when you start thinking about it in those terms, it also becomes easier to disengage because you realize that if you don't, you're just continuing to feed their BPD behavior.

I agree completely with all of your thoughts.

The above paragraph sums it up. When you look at their thought processes from further and further away, It's Madness. Pure Madness. They display Madness.

I have Bookmarked the two Posts on here with our discussions and labelled them as "READ THIS TO REMIND ME" . For any future moments
of doubt I may have.

Such a valuable resource.

[Flossy]

Wow Leaf. I just searched all of your past posts and saw that you had already brought up the correlation of ASD and BPD. We sure are on the same page with our thinking.

To the point where I wonder if our theories will be welcomed on the forum long term as they do not support the "hope" aspects of using tools to communicate with the pwBPD. The implication being to the ones involved that doing so will hopefully create a level of change in the relationship.

I believe as you do, that this is not possible.

I do hope that this viewpoint is allowed to be expressed fully on BPD Family for those who have reached the same conclusion.  There may be one other mother or father in the future who finds these posts and finds the conclusion of hopelessness comforting.

[Leaf56]

Hi again Flossy,
I'm confused. Why would our thoughts/ideas not be welcome or not be allowed to be fully expressed? I think as long as a poster does not directly challenge someone else on the forum who is clearly dedicated to going in a different direction, there's no reason not to explore this obviously valid option to its fullest extent. If people disagree, they don't have to read. I agree wholeheartedly that reaching the end of hope and seeing others who've given up is extremely comforting. It was to me. As soon as I started seeing these viewpoints expressed, I suddenly understood everything all at once and I immediately saw that I could continue on the path of trying to help for another 10, 20, 30 years, or I could call a spade a spade and salvage the rest of my and my other family member's lives. I realize I am a unique person and that I have a unique perspective on life that perhaps not many others have, but my take on things is just as valid as anyone else's. So, I will go forward assuming that no one will interfere with my expression of ideas just as I would never tell others that their way of dealing with this is wrong or futile. Everyone's journey is different.

[Flossy]

Hi again Flossy,
I'm confused. Why would our thoughts/ideas not be welcome or not be allowed to be fully expressed? I think as long as a poster does not directly challenge someone else on the forum who is clearly dedicated to going in a different direction, there's no reason not to explore this obviously valid option to its fullest extent. If people disagree, they don't have to read. I agree wholeheartedly that reaching the end of hope and seeing others who've given up is extremely comforting. It was to me. As soon as I started seeing these viewpoints expressed, I suddenly understood everything all at once and I immediately saw that I could continue on the path of trying to help for another 10, 20, 30 years, or I could call a spade a spade and salvage the rest of my and my other family member's lives. I realize I am a unique person and that I have a unique perspective on life that perhaps not many others have, but my take on things is just as valid as anyone else's. So, I will go forward assuming that no one will interfere with my expression of ideas just as I would never tell others that their way of dealing with this is wrong or futile. Everyone's journey is different.

I guess I have been burned through the use of FB where so many are quick to challenge and create a flame war.

 I have not had this happen on this forum at all, but my PTSD brain still fears the trigger of symptoms this would create in me.

I was speaking from that perspective.

[Leaf56]

I quit FB and all other corporate-owned social media several years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made! I highly recommend it and guarantee it will change your life!

[Flossy]

I quit FB and all other corporate-owned social media several years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made! I highly recommend it and guarantee it will change your life!

I no longer engage in it either, but hold onto it to find secondhand buys in Marketplace. I am a dedicated lover of all things vintage.

Though I have to use self-discipline to not become enraged at the BS that floats past my eyesight.

[guiltymom]

Quitting Facebook was an extremely positive (and long overdue) thing for me. I completely deleted my account more than a year ago (which was NOT easy, technically speaking—they don't make it easy for people to leave, because they want all your data!). Seeing all the posts about happy families and harmonious sibling relationships was making me feel like s@#t.

Definitely taking comfort in this thread—seeing that I'm not the only one admitting that our adult children might never get better, and that we might have to cut them out of our lives.

Flossy, you mentioned that your daughter showed signs of BPD at age 3.  Can you elaborate on that, please?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[beatricex]

Perspective is everything.  On the parent's with BPD thread I mentioned that I wandered over to another site (not this one) and read some posts by people with BPD.  Why would I do this?

I was hoping to gain some insight into my step daughter who is suspected BPD, and what might be happening in her mind...since I don't really know her that well (I didn't raise her). All it reminded me of was my BPD mom, though.  I drew a blank on my step daughter, reading what I saw posted "on the other side."

I was reminded:  they will act out even if the audience is removed.  They post things on their own message boards, just like ours, and a lot of it is rage for their feelings (who really wants to feel angry and paranoid all the time?), rage at us for being "better" as the victims (they are the aggressors).  Just throwing that out there, as it is impossible to actually see things from my step daughter's point of view, because she has cut me off.  But I can still empathize as I can try to imagine what's she's feeling. 

The show does go on, as my husband and I can google her and clearly see her social media and her perfect little family and what she posts for the world to see, which ironically is not anything she felt was appropriate for me to see or comment on yet there it is for the entire world to see.

I also kicked the FB habit, going on year 10 and strong (it's like a drug as we all know).  Although I do admit I lurked once when my other stepdaughter was dating a drug dealer (or so we thought).  Not quite the same as posting though, and what I found was terrifying enough that I deleted my account entirely.

b

[Leaf56]

I think FB and all social media counts as an audience--a BIG one. When I said "audience," I meant literally any human being who will see what they do/say. I was trying to differentiate between people with true brain disorders like schizophrenia, and people who can choose to NOT behave in a maladaptive way. As I said above, what got me thinking about it was a poster who said her daughter smashed her head trhough a plate-glass window upon being released from a hospital stay. I wondered if no one had been in the room at the time if she would have done that. I'm guessing not. But then, as I said in my more recent post, I actually now think that they might since I think that they internalize the audience with the idea that they can at some point in the future tell that person/people what they did. It's like bragging. I've seen it a lot with this type of person. And I think they feel like they actually have to do the self-destructive maladaptive behavior, that they can't just lie that they did it, because it's important that they prove to themselves and others how exquisite their suffering is. I think that the need for public suffering and acknowledgement by the public of that suffering are intrinsic to pwBPD. I probably once saw it in my teenager as a cry for help but now that he's an adult, I realize that pwBPDs don't actually want help, only acknowledgement of the suffering and how that sets them apart from everyone else—that their suffering is "exquisite" and special and more than everyone else's. I read something else on a very old thread here that I think is related:

"They cannot feel their pain because it is too uncomfortable for them - so they PROJECT onto us - the closest to them-  to FEEL For Them. In this way they are validated."

I think that that is a very interesting insight that I hadn't thought of before.

[Flossy]

Flossy, you mentioned that your daughter showed signs of BPD at age 3.  Can you elaborate on that, please?

She had an air of determination about her overall, but one incident I found strange.

Of course, I didn't know anything about Borderline then.

She was pasting pictures into a scrapbook and I touched a picture. She was furious and said "I'm gonna glue on you" , with a facial expression and tone of absolute detachment from me as her caregiver in life. I thought it was weirdly independent and showed an ability to feel rage at me and want to retaliate within a split second, at an unusual age.

[Flossy]

The show does go on, as my husband and I can google her and clearly see her social media and her perfect little family
b

I have noticed for a few years now that BPD mothers tend to be intense in the viewpoint of their role as a mother and are determined to be seen as Professional Mothers. This is one red flag I look for when I have a new female wanting to come into my life as a friend. It never fails to turn out that they are unBPD if they have this attitude and desire.

[Flossy]

because it's important that they prove to themselves and others how exquisite their suffering is. I think that the need for public suffering and acknowledgement by the public of that suffering are intrinsic to pwBPD. I probably once saw it in my teenager as a cry for help but now that he's an adult, I realize that pwBPDs don't actually want help, only acknowledgement of the suffering and how that sets them apart from everyone else—that their suffering is "exquisite" and special and more than everyone else's. I read something else on a very old thread here that I think is related:

"They cannot feel their pain because it is too uncomfortable for them - so they PROJECT onto us - the closest to them-  to FEEL For Them. In this way they are validated."
 

Yes, yes, yes. Exquisite suffering. More than anyone else's. She hung up on my husband when he made an attempt to get her to empathise with my period of suicidal ideation that I shared with her. "Think for a moment how you would feel if you lost your son" (I had lost mine). She could not bear to go there as that would have made my suffering more than what she suffered to hear that I wanted to die. Because she had no ability to help me, she had no willingness to try or to be kind to me.

It's a tantrum. "You won, how dare you" + hang up + cut off all contact between their parent and the grandchildren.

I have a "friend" with unBPD who when confronted with an elderly woman on the local cafe precinct who fell and hit her head, sat on the concrete beside her and cried. My daughter did the same when we were having a picnic and a mother of a child with severe brain injury was sitting near us. She sat there and cried, while I got up and got the mother food and a cuppa. (not tooting my own horn, just normal behaviour).

Hmmm! Seems to me like I do need to ponder again deleting the Dreaded Facebook. I have been nauseous for days and my meds are not working at this dosage. It is nausea related to anxiety & distress.

She has hidden all of her social media for years and yet has now put up on Instagram photos of my grandsons' graduation. As though she wants me to see this and be impressed by her mothering to "get him to graduation after years of education" her words. I believe not to share with me, but to feel I will praise her mothering as compared to mine.

"He didn't have a sibling with Cystic Fibrosis You had it easier than I did with a huge income as well and a private education for him.  So just try comparing reality for a minute or two and stop seeing others achievements as inferior". 

That was immature of me to imagine saying that, but it helped.

It so helps to hear the thoughts of others who truly relate and are at the same stage.

[beatricex]

hi Flossy,
I am sorry to hear you lost a son.  Was he the one with cystic fibrosis?  I am familiar with that disease, as I have a nephew with it.  It is terrible when they get sick and can't breathe and are hospitalized, I'm sure you felt helpless a lot of the time.

b

[Flossy]

hi Flossy,
I am sorry to hear you lost a son.  Was he the one with cystic fibrosis?  I am familiar with that disease, as I have a nephew with it.  It is terrible when they get sick and can't breathe and are hospitalized, I'm sure you felt helpless a lot of the time.

b

Yes he is, Beatricex
He lived until the age of 20 and died alone from a lung haemorrhage on the bathroom floor of his flat. We got him well enough to live alone there for 5 months. We had him on Zithromycin which kept his lungs from deteriorating but once I could not afford the brand and bought him generic he died within two weeks.

My brattish daughter cant see that would make anyone suicidal and erratic after 20 years of trying. She cant see that I was desperate to reach out to her.

The thing is that I did read years ago that pwBPD forget about someone unless they are in front of them. Like a 8-9 month old baby freaks out when the mother leaves the room, they have no concept of the thought process that their mother still exists. It's been studied and proven and 'experts' think this happens with BPD as well. The immature brain

I hope your nephew is on Trikafta. I know of lot who are now feeling they may well live a relatively normal lifespan after all. Many no longer need chest physio or digestive enzymes. A lot are complaining about getting fat for the first time in their lives. It is such a blessing for the CF community.
Check out Youtube videos about it if you are interested in knowing more.

[Cair_Paravel]

Flossy,

 I think that no matter how much time has passed or where they live etc. that they are in an imaginary struggle with you as "internalized parent" for the rest of their lives. In other words, in their heads and while they're exhibiting any BPD behavior, they will still be thinking, "I'll show them, I'll kill myself [or insert other destructive behavior] and then they'll be sorry/have to acknowledge that they caused this" or whatever.

100% agree with this and would just like to comment on this and how it can relate to psychopathy as also discussed in this thread

I watched a youtube video earlier about a Youtuber who ended up shooting several of his work colleagues- I am not suggesting this is likely for a  pwBPD but bear with me!

There was a common theme in his youtube rants about people not giving him the attention he deserved, that nobody was noticing what he was planning and they would all be sorry for what they had done, that his parents were neglectful, evil etc-these are all ideas I have heard many a time from my daughter, though without the plans to harm others.

Comments from those around him suggested he grew up in a fairly normal, middle class family, no obvious neglect, very little bullying at school etc. He had friends who said after the event he could have come to them any time but chose not to.

What struck me was the dissociation between his reality and what was actually happening in his life-I believe this perception is the common thread between BPD and Psychopathy, this distorted view of the self and how they should have an endless supply of attention- in BPD because they crave it and need it to feel okay, and in psychopathy because there is a narcissistic view of what they 'deserve' over and above anyone else.

I'd be interested in your thoughts

[Flossy]

100% agree with this and would just like to comment on this and how it can relate to psychopathy as also discussed in this thread


What struck me was the dissociation between his reality and what was actually happening in his life-I believe this perception is the common thread between BPD and Psychopathy, this distorted view of the self and how they should have an endless supply of attention- in BPD because they crave it and need it to feel okay, and in psychopathy because there is a narcissistic view of what they 'deserve' over and above anyone else.

I'd be interested in your thoughts

Yes, an endless supply of attention, their entitlement to it and to the constant need for the "understanding" of others regarding their suffering and yet, absolutely not one skerrick of understanding of the suffering of others in normal life around them and how suffering is part of everyone's life and coping with this is how we grow as a human. Also, absolutely no understanding of how their words or behaviours cause us suffering.

I also have a niece with severe BPD. She has used drugs to the point of using dirty needles which gave her sepsis and put her in ICU for weeks.
She views me as her 'favourite Aunty" but won't listen to me.The last time I tracked her down and. phoned her the first words out of her mouth were "Are you ringing me to tell me Dad is dead?". He is my abusive brother and I am sure she is living in hope she will gain some dollars from his death.
When I told her I want her to return my texts or phone calls or I won't maintain contact with her, she said "You all do my head in".

I am beginning to swing towards the opinion that they are mad, totally mad, with a huge dose of immaturity and brattishness involved.

There is an underlying theme of cunning that runs through every thought, every word, every manipulation and topic. A normal, healthy mind behaves at times no matter what trauma they have had or what sense of abandonment fear they have. These guys never behave. It comes down to the look in their eye. I can even pick it in actresses in film and television now. If they look like a cheeky, impish waif full of mischief, they are highly likely to be a Borderline.

I dont know if sharing these words helps with your thoughts, my brain is a little mushy today. But I appreciate your input and involvement a great deal.