Looking for support

[Depression = 72% of members]

Spouse undiagnosed.
Spouse is emotionally, mentally, psychologically abusive.
I am burning out.
Started couples therapy, am being held responsible for spouse’s behavior, am being asked to validate spouse’s projections and delusions.  Feeling defeated and despairing.

[AaZz]

Spouse undiagnosed.
Spouse is emotionally, mentally, psychologically abusive.
I am burning out.
Started couples therapy, am being held responsible for spouse’s behavior, am being asked to validate spouse’s projections and delusions.  Feeling defeated and despairing.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pursuingJoy]

Started couples therapy, am being held responsible for spouse’s behavior, am being asked to validate spouse’s projections and delusions. 

Can you tell us more about this? Not all therapists are good therapists, and not all are trained to deal with disorders like BPD.

What are some of your spouse's behaviors?

[AaZz]

What are some of your spouse's behaviors?

She exhibits these traits:

• Fear of abandonment
• A continual internal dialog of negative self talk
• Driven by feelings of guilt and shame - this is always blamed on others ('he makes me feel guilty', 'she flattens me', 'you make me the bad guy', etc)
• People in her life are either on pedestals/her only hope and salvation -or- villains/the source of her problems
• She does not understand boundaries and either willingly defies them or goes super far the other direction because she fears them
• She cannot internally regulate emotions / is dependent on others to talk her down/up
• Hypersensitive
• Extreme reactions
• Easily offended
• Suicidal ideations
• Paranoid thinking: they are judging me, he doesn't like me, you are mad at me, they were acting suspicious, you think I'm stupid, you think you're superior
• She literally hears things that I and others have never said - not only when recalling past conversations, but in real time - inserting false things into the very last statement made to her seconds ago, believing to the death it was said
• She accuses people of doing things that they never did
• Driven by fear
• She stays upset about things for weeks, months, years
• Projection, projection, projection
• Passive Aggressive
• Triangulation
• Black and white thinking / it has to be this or that, no other possible explanation
• Denies her feelings - 'I'm fine, you have the problem'
• I have to talk in an even, monotone voice because she interprets mere inflection as yelling at her
• She is undone if we hold different values/opinions on things
• Everything in the world revolves around her/is seen as a commentary on her
• This includes even my emotions: You are happy? Well just leave me here in sadness then. You are sad? You'll never be as sad as I am.  You have a hurt? Saying that just invalidated all of my hurts.
• Every choice before me is the wrong thing and whatever I pick proves I am uncaring, uncompassionate, mean, offensive
• She asserts what people are thinking, feeling, what their motives are
• Jealous of people spending time with others
• When I express a frustration or hurt, she refuses to acknowledge it, attacks me, and flips it around to her being the victim so I'm left saying sorry, sorry, sorry
• I am expected to read her mind
• I am expected to rescue her from even small tasks
• She spends 85% of her time lying on the bed in her room with the door closed, hairdryer blasting to drown out sounds from the rest of the house
• She invents narratives to support her feelings rather than base her feelings on things people have actually said and done
 

Wow.  I live with all of this alone.  Running through this on repeat inside so I don’t mess up or miss something.  Carrying it all day after day, year after year.  Or talking about it with my own therapist an item at a time.  I've never seen it all in one list like this.  It feels overwhelming.  I feel sick to my stomach.  I have chest pains after looking at it.


She actually has had people test her for BPD 3 times, but they have always decided she doesn't have it.  I think it's because she's missing some of the giant things everyone sees as defining characteristics of BPD.  She does not have destructive impulsive tendencies (although she has had severe compulsions, but that's different).  She has had no actual suicide attempts, although she does have regular, repeated suicidal ideations.  And while she is easily offended and angry, you really couldn't characterize them as ‘rages’.  The episodes of anger/offense/victimization are constant, intense, and long lasting.  But they are not loud or violent or public. I think instead in raging outward, she rages inward.  Which doesn’t mean it stays there - it just comes out as projection and manipulation rather than an explosion.

[pursuingJoy]

That is a long list.  I know what it's like to feel overwhelmed when you look at everything at once. You have a therapist and you have us, and believe me, we understand how people with BPD can put on a good face while we see their worst behaviors at home.

I'm curious what led to the testing for BPD? Did she suspect it? Who did the testing?

Not everyone is trained to identify or deal with it, and she definitely exhibits BPD behaviors that are really challenging. Don't put too much stock in the diagnosis or lack thereof.

I see almost all of these behaviors in my BPD MIL. I've never dealt with a person with BPD before and didn't know what it was. I considered myself fairly healthy and stable after years of therapy and processing my own family dysfunction, and 5 years of knowing her left me feeling completely upside down. It was so, so unsettling.

Do you find your therapist helpful as you walk through this list one by one? What guidance have they given you so far?

• When I express a frustration or hurt, she refuses to acknowledge it, attacks me, and flips it around to her being the victim so I'm left saying sorry, sorry, sorry

This stuck out to me. Don't apologize if you didn't do anything wrong. We call it 'validating the invalid' here, and it is important to changing the dynamic.

[AaZz]

I'm curious what led to the testing for BPD? Did she suspect it? Who did the testing?

By a huge miracle, my wife decided to try therapy a while back, despite railing against it for years.  She now really trusts her therapist and a lot of good work HAS been done.  She also has a psychiatrist who works with the therapist and they have been very insistent that she needs meds for anxiety and depression - fortunately she listens to them, and this has also made a HUGE difference.  Both of them saw the need to check fo BPD, but afterward both reassured her they didn’t think she had it.  I don’t know who did the third assessment that my wife referred to.

My wife is extremely averse to anything even resembling a label, and I do wonder if her therapist actually knows it’s BPD and is interacting with her as if it is, just without the label.  She’s the one that introduced Fear of Abandonment into the conversation - something I never would have recognized as such, but now can see everywhere.

But because her therapist only has my wife’s stories to go on, there are also all of these projections and reversals and things that I and others have never said / done thrown into their sessions.  So she has also been counseled / affirmed in very unhelpful ways.  For the most part my feeling has been: absolutely throw me under the bus if it means she can get the help and healing she needs. But both her therapist and mine have recognized the need for couples counseling, the need for a professional to hear from both of us.

We started couple’s therapy recently, and I have just not felt safe at all.  So far he has taken the route of unquestioningly validating her claims, letting her know she is heard and believed, and has every right to feel the way she does.  This might be fine if he did the same for both of us, but so far he has only told me things that I could be doing or not doing to keep my wife from her extreme responses.  My wife has also picked up on this and sees it as him confirming she is ‘right’ and I am ‘wrong’.  He has correctly recognized that she comes from a traumatic invalidating childhood whereas I have an amazing supportive nurturing history.  So I don’t know if he feels that she needs more encouragement and I am safer to put on the back burner?  I am hoping he has a long term game plan, but am fearful we are actually in early stages of the wrong road.

I don’t feel like I can bring up mental health or BPD in the couples therapy, because she doesn’t recognize it, and will see it as a victimization.  I keep hoping he will pick up on it himself without my spelling it out, but I’m losing that hope.  And I do NOT know how or if I even should try.  I feel like *he* should be told, but my wife absolutely should *not* know about the things on the list compiled earlier.  I’m already attacked with ‘you don’t care about me’ ‘you blame me’ ‘ you’re mad at me’ ‘you think you are better than me’.  She would never think “oh my gosh, I’ve hurt you in all these ways?”  She would instead think “what an oppressive uncaring husband to paint such a terrible picture of me.”  After he so strongly validates her, how can I ever bring up “there are things she says that did not happen.”  I understand that people see things from different points of view, but these are exact opposites, there is something very wrong going on.

[pursuingJoy]

By a huge miracle, my wife decided to try therapy a while back, despite railing against it for years.  She now really trusts her therapist and a lot of good work HAS been done.

My wife is extremely averse to anything even resembling a label

That's pretty great that she's so open to therapy!

My H and I were in marriage counseling after major issues with my MIL. We each went for individual sessions. In mine, the counselor told me that she believed my MIL had BPD. She advised against telling my H, because she believed it would be ineffective and he would just dismiss it. I knew for two years before I ever told him. When I did, sure enough, he dismissed it.

I know now that the value was never in the label, but in identifying and addressing the behavior. Your wife's counselor likely knows that.

As a word of caution, sort of on the flip side, not many counselors specialize in treating BPD patients. Some I've talked to won't event accept BPD patients. Does your wife's counselor have a bio online that you can review? Sometimes they list their specialties.

We started couple’s therapy recently, and I have just not felt safe at all.

Our couples therapist had a very different approach than individual counselors. I have higher validation needs and I found couples therapy nerve wracking. The counselor's priority is the wellness and success of the relationship, not validating one view over the other. Is it possible the therapist can see what's happening and recognizes you're the the one who is most likely to have the emotional capacity to make the changes? Whether it's tactical or they don't have much experience with BPD and can't recognize the signs, it's important for you to feel ok in the sessions.

Individual sessions helped me tremendously. I was able to get reassurance that the therapist saw what was happening and that her validation was tactical. Can you suggest it to your therapist electronically, so it's not coming from you? Otherwise it might seem to your wife that you're trying to throw her under the bus.

The other option might be to get your marriage counselor to talk to your individual counselors to get their insight and history.

[AaZz]

Is it possible the therapist can see what's happening and recognizes you're the the one who is most likely to have the emotional capacity to make the changes?

I absolutely hope this is what is happening.  I am trying to trust that this is the case.  If so, I just feel like I need some kind of wink from him.
 I do not think there is any chance of individual meetings with him in the days ahead.  My wife is extremely fearful of people ‘manipulating others to be against her’.  Her own distrust would be through the roof if behind the scenes conversations were in place.  And in fact, I would have doubts about him believing information  I could only say in private anyway.  I think  that would look pretty suspicious.
So I decided to wait and see where things are headed, and to join up here in order to express my concerns and get out of my head.

[pursuingJoy]

So I decided to wait and see where things are headed, and to join up here in order to express my concerns and get out of my head.

We'll support in any way we can.

Think you could connect your marriage counselor and your individual counselors?

Also, you said the therapist is making suggestions for what you could be doing or changing. I'm curious - what suggestions are they making?

[AaZz]

you said the therapist is making suggestions for what you could be doing or changing. I'm curious - what suggestions are they making?

He has said things like “you haven’t validated her hurts. That’s why there are problems.”

Then later, “I guess you HAVE validated her hurts, but you want her to understand your intentions also, and that’s getting in the way of her feeling validated. It should just be validation: period.  That’s why there are problems.”

Then later yet, “We’ll you DID validate period. But you haven’t communicated that you understand how *deep* her hurts are. That’s why there are problems.”

I always seem to be the source of the problems.  When what actually happened is this:

• She told me how an incident years earlier had been hurtful for her.
• I validated. Told her how it made sense, how deeply sorry I was that she was hurt, how sorry I was for my role in it.  Period.
• She said she didn’t  believe I really cared. (now that’s actual invalidation)
• She asked repeatedly why the hurtful thing had happened.
• I answered, not because I wanted my motives to be known, but only because she kept asking.  I answered honestly, recounting  the conversation leading up to the hurtful incident.
• She blurted out “ Those are lies!” (invalidation #2).
• So I moved from the facts which she was denying to my own heart at the time. I told her I didn’t even want to be there for the hurtful event, but had tried to defer to her out of respect for her expressed wishes at the time, and I still carry my own deep hurts from it.  But those things in no way undo her serious hurts from the experience for which I am so sorry.  Both can be true.
• She said “That can’t be true. Now I see your plan, how you are going to spin this around and refuse to take blame.” (Invalidation #3)
• The following day at therapy she presented this conflict from the night before as: “He told me ‘you’ve got it wrong’.”  Which I never did - she was the one who repeatedly told me that.  The ONLY way I now knew our stories must differ is because she’d called me a liar and schemer.
• Without hearing a single word from me, the therapist said to her “You’ve been told you have to change your story. You’ve been told you are wrong.  All the work you are doing in the relationship is being discounted.  Your hurt is being minimized.  Your hurt should be accepted and should not be denied.”
• Absolutely everything had been flipped.  Everything she had felt/done the night before, she had projected onto me.
• Then he had me turn to her and repeat after him that right now the relationship was not a safe place for her.
• I really felt betrayed, but realized that I had not shared a single word about the exchange, so how could he know.
• The following week I was invited to share my version of the conflict.  I told the above.
• But instead of telling me any of the same things he’d told her after her spin, he said “Her story IS true. That should be accepted.  And she has a hard time hearing you because you haven’t communicated how deep her hurts are.”
• Later my wife told me, “See, he heard from both of us, and he said *I* am hurt and *my* story is true.”
• I’ve since heard more of her story, I’m shocked and disturbed by it, and it is indeed full of things that absolutely did not happen and things that are reversed.  But I don’t believe she’s intentionally lying, I think she sincerely believes it.
• Both her brother and her niece have the same issue, remembering bizarrely flipped accounts, or things that never happened at all - she can see it in them, finds it infuriating, but cannot recognize it when she does it.
• And now moving forward, it seems I will be asked by the therapist to affirm her narrative — and at the same time be expected to take responsibility for her not accepting mine.

[Selfishsally]

I think you are most definitely being abused and now experiencing secondary abuse from this therapist. Your therapist may not be doing this intentionally since he can not see the abuse for what it is yet.

You can thank yourself for getting you this far and keeping as much of yourself together as you have. But, you most definitely need to get your own therapist for individual therapy. It is not recommended to have therapy with an abuser, as you can see why.
But, I just want you to hear that it is wrong(that's why it feels so wrong), it is hurtful and you didn't do anything wrong.
I hear you and see you!
The hope is you can start your own healing and that your therapist can help you "help her" if that is what you want. You can't help someone who is drowning before you help yourself from drowning.

[Jessica84]

I am so sorry you are going through this. Sounds like your wife has turned the therapist into her ally and made you the "bad guy", validating the invalid. How frustrating!

My BPDbf is also an expert at rewriting history and convincing others of it. It used to spin me into knots. I was a walking pretzel! I was constantly seeking validation from my own friends, to assure myself I wasn't crazy, or that my memory wasn't imagined.

It sounds like you have a much better grip on reality than I did, but it can be hard to stay grounded without support, and some extra inner work. I found support helpful, but not enough. I needed a new approach. I would vent to friends for hours after an incident and think of all the ways he was a jerk or wrong or how I could've handled it better, but the truth is, we only have seconds to react when things go south. Best to equip ourselves with some handy tools so our reactions come naturally, and effective! The goal is to cool a situation, lower the temperature. We all lose our ability to think clearly in an agitated state. For pwBPD, it's a whole other level of instability.

We first have to understand the emotional turmoil they are experiencing to stop taking the accusations personally. Without my own layer of emotion getting in the way, I can stay calm and validate better, thus ending the conflict sooner.

I learned to neither "buy" his reality, nor "sell" him mine - or anyone else for that matter, like a biased therapist. I learned to accept their version as their reality--however bizarre or inaccurate-- and validate whatever pain was expressed, without trying to defend myself from whatever the accusation of the day was. "I can see why that would upset you" went a long way. He often took it as an apology or admittance of my wrongdoing, but whatever. I knew it was his mental circus, not mine, and I didn't care what he thought. I liked the result: things calmed down! Good enough.  hope this helps..

[AaZz]

"I can see why that would upset you" went a long way. He often took it as an apology or admittance of my wrongdoing, but whatever.

That’s a good phrase.  I’ll have to add it to my list of acceptable replies.

The real difficulty comes when I am point blank asked, “So then why did you do it?”  I will continue to find ways to dodge responding to questions like that.

The other hard thing is when I am talking about something and have no idea yet that it doesn’t match a narrative in her head.  There is no way to avoid that situation other than: In general talk as little as possible to her. Stick to surface topics and don’t ever share my heart, experiences, or hurt.  Because I never know what’s not going to match. 

It’s a very lonely existence.  It’s hard to let go of the desire to be known by your parter.

[pursuingJoy]

I'm not the greatest fan of the therapist either, but of course, they're not magicians. I've seen several, some I've liked more than others. In the end the real work needs to be done by the two of you.

The real difficulty comes when I am point blank asked, “So then why did you do it?”  I will continue to find ways to dodge responding to questions like that.

It's not a fair question to ask because she doesn't want to know the answer. She's pushing you to invalidate her. I agree that dodging the question is the best approach, OR offering as little information as possible and turn it back to her, or maybe even responding with another question. Maybe, "At the moment, I'd like to focus on understanding how you feel."

There is a time for truth, because if all you do is validate validate validate, you'll end up validating the invalid. That's not a good extreme either. This article has a lot of helpful info that applies to what you're going through, check it out:
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

It’s a very lonely existence.  It’s hard to let go of the desire to be known by your parter.

It's completely legitimate to feel this way. Some of what you're feeling is grief. You're experiencing the loss of a relationship as you wanted it, as you expected it. As the grief subsides, acceptance will set in and you may find ways to navigate this relationship in a way that is potentially satisfying. Give it a little time.

[AaZz]

not a great fan of therapists… In the end the real work needs to be done by the two of you.

It's not a fair question to ask because she doesn't want to know the answer. She's pushing you to invalidate her.

 Maybe, "At the moment, I'd like to focus on understanding how you feel."

Wow, wow, wow. 
So many great insights here. 
Thank you.

[Rose409]

I hear ya. Couples therapy is not recommended for BPD.

[AaZz]

Do you find your therapist helpful as you walk through this list one by one? What guidance have they given you so far?

My personal therapist has been a huge help.  We’re coming up on 2 years of meeting.  One of the most important things that has ever happened to me was hearing a particular response he gave about five months into our visits.  It was long before I stumbled onto what a match bpd was, and at that point my own focus was still on taking responsibility for / carrying all the weight of my wife’s responses and emotions and perceptions and behaviors - I was looking to my therapist to help me figure out how to do it better and tell me what ways I was doing it wrong.  He tends to respond to where I’m at rather than address things I can’t see yet.  But anyway, after months of me sharing all these incidents and conversations and my various responses and how they go south and how I keep trying this and then trying that… finally I point blank asked him, “Can you see where I’m off? what is my flaw, why am I failing, what am I doing wrong?”  I was WANTING him to help me take responsibility.  But his answer was, “I think your wife has SEVERE mental health issues. And out of sincere love for her, you are killing yourself trying to take care of her. But this isn’t a normal relationship.”   I was not expecting that, I was not looking for that, and it actually was not what I wanted to hear.  But it was an important step toward me learning to take responsibility for ONLY those things I have control over: my own motives and intentions and words and attitudes and emotions — and to start letting go of things I have NO control over: her perceptions and interpretations and responses and attitudes and emotions.

I think that’s why the feedback from this new couples counselor has shaken me so deeply, sent me into a bit of crisis mode.  To be told multiple times now ‘’she is responding the way she is because you haven’t *this* or you are wanting *that*’ — it feels like huge steps backwards, it feels like all the growth I’ve made in un-meshing myself is being undone.  I was slowly learning to breathe and live, and I feel like my air supply has been cut off. I’ve been spun around the other direction, pointing back to where I’ve been coming away from, and it’s dark and scary there.

[pursuingJoy]

But it was an important step toward me learning to take responsibility for ONLY those things I have control over: my own motives and intentions and words and attitudes and emotions — and to start letting go of things I have NO control over: her perceptions and interpretations and responses and attitudes and emotions.

This is a huge step. For me, if it was my fault, I could change it, and that meant I was still in control. It was scary to let go of the desire to control.

I think that’s why the feedback from this new couples counselor has shaken me so deeply, sent me into a bit of crisis mode.  

First, counselors don't always get it right. There are bad counselors out there, and pwBPD have fooled counselors before. The counselor's opinion doesn't need to change what you know to be true. It's very important that you sustain a solid sense of self.

It is possible that the counselor knows exactly what's going on. After only two sessions, my counselor was able to identify that my MIL likely has BPD.  The counselor may know that you're the one best equipped to make the changes. I mean think about it - if the counselor validated your perspective, it would make your wife feel attacked. She'd lose trust in the counselor and quit going. The goal of personal counseling is to validate perspective. The goal of marriage counseling is to offer tools that will sustain the relationship.  

Are they saying, or are you hearing, that you're the problem? Sometimes we assign meaning to what we hear because of our past and old ways of thinking.  

Is there anything useful in what they're saying? What, specifically, are they saying? Going back to the idea that you have the most power to effect change in the relationship, maybe they're offering you some good ideas that you can build on.

I used to swing dance and go to competitions. Beginners would often pull too hard, sometimes injuring advanced dancers. A student brought this up in class. The teacher acknowledged that it could be dangerous, then asked, "But who makes the adjustment? The one who CAN."

Your wife won't accept full responsibility for her part. That does NOT mean carrying her weight. It does mean taking emotional leadership, setting healthy boundaries, learning new tools, saying no, following through, building our own sense of self, etc. All the work we do feels unfair at the beginning. The good news is that the changes we make can improve the relationship enough that it becomes enjoyable again. There's reward in that part.

[AaZz]

This is all really, really good.  Thank you SO much.

Are they saying, or are you hearing, that you're the problem? Sometimes we assign meaning to what we hear because of our past and old ways of thinking. 

Here’s the thing, he definitely is VERY deliberate in his word choice.  He will always phrase things in passive constructions. For instance, when validating her untrue statements, he will say “You have been told…” or “Such and such happened to you…”   He is very careful never to actually say “Your husband told you…” or “He did such and such…”  This has always stood out to me.  Until now I have found it super frustrating, because it feels like he is just saying it without saying it — I want to  blurt out, “We all know who you are talking about. Just say out loud that you think I did these things.”  It feels like the indirect manipulative way my bpd wife speaks - talking sideways, dropping hints, clearly accusing without doing it outright.  But after reading your thoughts here, maybe he is doing something different, even though it feels the same.  Instead of accusing me but just not directly, maybe he is actually trying to make her feel heard while deliberately trying NOT to buy into the accusations at all.  I wish I knew if that’s the case.  I will try to listen through that lens.  Of course there can be no way to clarify it in front of her, because if that IS the intent, its effectiveness would be destroyed with a reveal.

Regardless of what he is trying to do, the reality is that so far I have felt  like I’m being held responsible.  And my wife, who sees the world in terms of sides and blame, DEFINITELY believes the therapist is saying that he sides with her.  She has outright said afterward “See, *he* said this happened to me.”

It is possible that the counselor knows exactly what's going on. After only two sessions, my counselor was able to identify that my MIL likely has BPD.

One funny bit from *our* 2nd counseling session...  Just in passing as the therapist was listing his hopes for us - even though we had only shared a minimal amount of information at that point - he actually said to me, “and for you, we’re going to see if we can get things so you can stop walking on eggshells all the time.”  My eyes about bugged out of my head.  My heart leapt and I thought, Does he already know? This early, and can he already tell?   That’s got to be a fairly common phrase, but he could have said anything… tiptoeing, navigating a mine field, tightrope walking.  But to use the title of a BPD book?  I have never felt so hopeful.  I wished there was some little insider’s signal I could have given to see if we were on the same page.  Ever since then, I’ve been looking for other hints that he is interacting with her as such, but alas, what I’ve felt is he has validated her narrative instead of her feelings which doesn’t seem like what you’d do if you knew someone was speaking from a bpd outlook.  And I don’t feel like he has counseled me at all the way you would if you knew someone was on the receiving end of bpd behavior, hence me looking for support here.

And THANK YOU for the support and  encouragement.  It’s brought me back from a very despairing place.

[kells76]

Can't help but chime in with pursuingJoy about the 3-party dynamic in counseling.

We've been through that scenario twice, and yes, the kickoff each time is pretty harrowing.

First time was when DH's ex was unilaterally cutting down his time with the kids. DH and I were in marriage counseling, and our MC had also seen DH and ex back in the day, and ex's current husband. It's a small community. And we knew what MC thought about ex and ex's husband, and we knew MC wanted good for us and the kids and the whole situation. He offered to do mediation between the 4 of us to try to work out parenting time.

So it was pretty brutal to sit in that first session and basically feel like he was "taking sides" with DH's ex! It felt like a betrayal, and it hurt, and that was with knowing that he was in our corner, and knew all the history. We ended up talking with him after those sessions quite a bit. (and we have keep seeing him for many years).

Basically he was building that sense of "buy-in" or "skin in the game" from ex & ex's husband. pwBPD are low-trust and can be suspicious, and coupled with a sensitive shame trigger, that means that if MC had called her out on her antics right away, she would've walked away from the table and we wouldn't have made any progress. (We still didn't, but for other reasons... like BPD).

So he had to spend a long time creating a space where she would buy in to the process and actually participate. If she felt "ganged up on" or "unheard" or "exposed" then she would create a justification for leaving. If the goal was in fact to work together and get something on paper, she had to have skin in the game.

Takeaway #1: even when the counselor is someone you've worked with for years, that you completely trust, and that knows the whole backstory, you still can have a gut-punch experience in that 3-party dynamic where the pwBPD is there and the professional is in the "trust-building" stage. That can happen and it doesn't have to mean that the counselor is siding with the pwBPD.

Second time was after that mediation failed and things went to "official" mediation and there was a court date. Counseling for the kids finally got agreed on, and DH's ex got to pick the counselor. We were pretty skeptical at first, that Mom had picked a "pushover" who would just lap up her version of things. DH stuck it out though, and while it took multiple months to a year, the counselor -- who knew NONE of us at the start -- finally got it and knew where the issues were coming from.

Here's the biggest takeaway from that second time:

The counselor may prescribe "homework" to participants -- for us, it was "I want you to try this instead of that with the kids, and report back to me how you're doing". Each adult (all 4 of us) got the HW. Later on, the counselor told us that while Mom struggled with an inability to parent well (i.e. would kind of attempt the HW but complain/stress about not being able to), it was Stepdad who was actively resistant to doing the HW. He would not cooperate (note, he has NPD traits). Counselor commented that the kids would continue to have major anxiety until he got with the program, but he would not do what someone else told him to do.

This is going to be the biggest "tell" in your situation -- can you "suck it up" and "do the homework" to the best of your ability? Can you be realistic about taking responsibility if the HW doesn't work out, or if you didn't do it? Can you refrain from blame, a victim mentality, statements of "I couldn't help it... what could I do... external causes stopped me from being amazing at doing the HW..."?

This is a huge, huge thing. Professionals WILL see who can follow through on "assignments" and who JADES about not doing it. If you can get to a point in sessions where your counselor is like "OK AaZz, what I want you to do for the next week is X, Y, and Z, and keep a log, and let me know how it went", and you do your very best to do it, and report back "Hey, I was able to do X and Y for about 5 days out of 7, and I noticed I didn't do Z because I chose to let my feelings of fear drive my actions... I think if I were to go back and do it over, I'd really try to manage my emotions about Z"... that is going to be huge, huge, huge.

Because your W will struggle with any kind of assignment like that, and it WILL show.

I’ve been looking for other hints that he is interacting with her as such, but alas, what I’ve felt is he has validated her narrative instead of her feelings which doesn’t seem like what you’d do if you knew someone was speaking from a bpd outlook.  And I don’t feel like he has counseled me at all the way you would if you knew someone was on the receiving end of bpd behavior, hence me looking for support here.

Again, it's pretty brutal starting out in a joint counseling session with a pwBPD, because it will look and feel like the counselor is bending over backward to accommodate the pwBPD. That could actually be a sign that the C knows that the other person is a pwBPD. The question is -- and there is no right or wrong answer -- do you feel like you're in a position to hang in there, to tough it out until your sessions get to the point of "the counselor is assigning some homework". My hope is that when you get there, it'll become really, really clear what the dynamics are. Because you'll be able to follow through, and she won't.

And I also think, if you can tough it out until then, the counselor's response to how you and your W tackle your HW will be telling for YOU, to see "OK, is this counselor really seeing how things are? Or do they make excuses for my W's inability to follow through?"

Lots of food for thought...

kells76

[pursuingJoy]

Second all of what kells said. Great example and insight.

Of course there can be no way to clarify it in front of her, because if that IS the intent, its effectiveness would be destroyed with a reveal.

Exactly. Be strategic.

One of the most surprising lessons I learned in marriage counseling was that what I thought was intimacy and closeness was sometimes codependence and poor boundaries.

Many think of boundaries as something that keep others out, but my favorite definition is that they keep me in my yard. Oversharing, JADEing, trying to control or change others, expecting others to fix us, and rescuing are all examples of poor boundaries, stepping outside your zone into someone else's.

Allowing the process to play out, following the counselor's instructions and releasing the desire to control may be ways to practice healthy boundaries.

the reality is that so far I have felt  like I’m being held responsible. 

I can understand why you feel this way but feelings aren't facts. Even if your wife and counselor believe you're responsible, you only become responsible when you accept the burden they're trying to make you carry. The choice is yours.

he actually said to me, “and for you, we’re going to see if we can get things so you can stop walking on eggshells all the time.” 

I meeeaaan if this isn't a *wink wink* I don't know what is.

I don’t feel like he has counseled me at all the way you would if you knew someone was on the receiving end of bpd behavior, hence me looking for support here.

He's not counseling you. He's counseling the relationship you have with your wife. It's a tricky spot for him to be in, and he might not always get it right. Def talk to your individual counselor about all of this, they may have some professional insight.

You've got this. 

[AaZz]

He had to spend a long time creating a space where she would buy into the process and actually participate. If she felt "ganged up on" or "unheard" or "exposed" then she would create a justification for leaving. If the goal was in fact to work together and get something on paper, she had to have skin in the game.

You still can have a gut-punch experience in that 3-party dynamic where the pwBPD is there and the professional is in the "trust-building" stage. That can happen and it doesn't have to mean that the counselor is siding with the pwBPD.

I think you are spot on.  In fact my wife WAS ready to walk.  She had told me prior to a meeting that she was done, planning to quit, only going to the session because it was already on the calendar, but this would be her last one.  The counselor never heard any of this.  But that was the meeting in which he went overboard on validating everything she said, even validating things she’d never said but he guessed she could be feeling, and never asked to hear from me other than to tell me to validate a feeling she must be having.  I wonder if something about her demeanor or words had tipped him off that this was a necessary step that day.  Yes, it left me feeling run over, feeling like delusions were being cemented.  I thought it was a sign we were headed terribly down the wrong trail, but maybe he just knew this is a crucial step on the right path.

That could actually be a sign that the C knows that the other person is a pwBPD. The question is -- and there is no right or wrong answer -- do you feel like you're in a position to hang in there, to tough it out

Actually, I do now.  I do now, all thanks to you guys and this thread.  You don’t know how valuable this has been for me.  Granted, this counseling still could be taking us down a really wrong road - that’s possible.  But it’s not the only scenario.  You’ve given me hope that another explanation could be that the therapist has a very good idea of what’s going on.  I’m hopeful.  The sirens in my head are calming down.

[AaZz]

Oversharing… Trying to control others… Rescuing… are all examples of poor boundaries, stepping outside your zone into someone else's.

you only become responsible when you accept the burden they're trying to make you carry. The choice is yours.

He's not counseling you. He's counseling the relationship you have with your wife.

   SO good. 
   All so, so good. 
   Thank you. 
   This space has been invaluable.
 
 

[kells76]

Granted, this counseling still could be taking us down a really wrong road - that’s possible.  But it’s not the only scenario.  You’ve given me hope that another explanation could be that the therapist has a very good idea of what’s going on.  I’m hopeful.  The sirens in my head are calming down.

You're spot on. It could be either way. Time will tell, so if you check in with yourself, and if you feel like "yeah, I think I have the strength to hang in there a little longer, see how things go", then it's OK to wait and see. You don't have to make any commitments to "definitely stick with it" or "definitely leave" right now. Take it one session at a time, see what you can handle with this new perspective. I bet that over time, it'll become much more clear to you whether you all are "going down the wrong road" or "going somewhere healthy". No rush, as long as you feel safe and like "OK, I can do this".

Hang in there!

[pursuingJoy]

She had told me prior to a meeting that she was done, planning to quit, only going to the session because it was already on the calendar, but this would be her last one.  The counselor never heard any of this.  But that was the meeting in which he went overboard on validating everything she said, even validating things she’d never said but he guessed she could be feeling, and never asked to hear from me other than to tell me to validate a feeling she must be having.

Great observation. I love that you're catching all of these layers. Either crazy timing or another clue that the counselor knows what's going on.

No rush, as long as you feel safe and like "OK, I can do this".

Well said, kells. It will take trusting the counselor to a degree, but more importantly, trust yourself. Trust who you are, what you know. Trust that you have a good heart, and that you'll know your limit when and if it comes.

And you know we're here anytime you have a question or need a boost. No one is meant to go it alone. Can't tell you how many times folks here have picked me up.

When's your next session? How are things at home between sessions?

[AaZz]

When's your next session?   How are things at home between sessions?

Next session this afternoon.

The state of life here is consistently random.  Sometimes great, sometimes fraught.  I never know what I’m going to find when I come home.  It’s a very Jekyll/Hyde way of life.  I’m constantly taking the temperature, looking for signs to determine where we are at on any given day so I can proceed accordingly.  Rarely is the state of things tied to anything going on in reality.

However, all of that being said, I can guarantee today’s session will be a doozy.  Last night I came back from an errand and my wife said ‘we need to talk.’  She had been reading my emails, and found one I’d written to a highschool buddy about a month ago, around the same time I joined up here. This was the point when I was the most freaked out about where couples counseling seemed to be going. I didn’t meet with my own therapist for another week.  I knew I had to keep my internal distress under wraps / off of her, and to do so I had to get out of my head and get help.  I don’t have that many people in life to talk to about all of this, and I don’t want to reach out to people who the two of us are mutually connected to.  It’s the same reason I sought this group out.  I though: my wife has no connection to my highschool friend, if I talked to him I could avoid the danger of my wife fearing someone in her life being turned against her.   FORTUNATELY in the email I did not go into a lot of detail at all, but I did write: “I’m trying to trust the counseling process, but I’m really struggling. There are things being presented by my wife that I 100% know are not true based on facts, even if I can twist my mind and concede to a measure of ‘it happened’ based on feelings or perception. But it’s being outright validated, I’m being asked to validate it, and I don’t know how to handle that.”   Yeaaaaaaah.  Her reading that did not go over well.  She says that I think she’s a liar (I don’t - I think she completely believes these things).  She says that I think she’s stupid (I don’t - I think there are good explanations like psychological defense mechanisms).  She says what is the point of couples counseling at all if this is how I feel, she’s saying she’s going to quit again.  Throughout the whole fit, I avoided any and all JADEing.  I didn’t take any of the bait of correcting false assertions or explaining my feelings..  I tried to keep things from escalating by solely validating her feelings, by saying sorry for how what I had written had  hurt her, saying that it makes sense that reading something like that would be troubling.

So we’ll see how couples therapy goes today!  Oh boy!

[EZEarache]

She has had no actual suicide attempts, although she does have regular, repeated suicidal ideations.  And while she is easily offended and angry, you really couldn't characterize them as ‘rages’.  The episodes of anger/offense/victimization are constant, intense, and long lasting.  But they are not loud or violent or public. I think instead in raging outward, she rages inward.  Which doesn’t mean it stays there - it just comes out as projection and manipulation rather than an explosion.

From what I have read and experienced, Borderline Personality Disorder is one of the most difficult things to diagnose as an outside observer.

This indicates the subgroup "Quiet Borderline" to me...

If you're lucky, she'll flip out on a therapist in couples therapy and get a diagnosis. That's what ended up happening in my case.

[AaZz]

I can guarantee today’s couples counseling session will be a doozy.  Last night I came back from an errand and my wife said ‘we need to talk.’  She had been reading my emails, and found one I’d written to a highschool buddy about a month ago, around the same time I joined up here. This was the point when I was the most freaked out about where couples counseling seemed to be going… 
… FORTUNATELY in the email I did not go into a lot of detail at all, but I did write: “I’m trying to trust the counseling process, but I’m really struggling. There are things being presented by my wife that I 100% know are not true based on facts, even if I can twist my mind and concede to a measure of ‘it happened’ based on feelings or perception. But it’s being outright validated, I’m being asked to validate it, and I don’t know how to handle that.”   Yeaaaaaaah.  Her reading that did not go over well. 

Thought I’d share how the most recent couples counseling went:
• Right off the bat she told the counselor she had read my emails and was upset by what I had said.
• His sole focus with her was "how did that make you feel."
• She responded with:  Deep anger.  Hurt.  Like I had devalued her perspective.  That what I had done was so wrong.  That she was trying to trust the counseling process, and here was evidence that I was questioning it.  I was “spreading it around” that she is a liar.  Anger.  Hurt.  Anger.
• When he turned to me, his question was not asking how I felt about her reading through my mail, or even about my feelings conveyed in the email, but rather "How do you feel about what your wife just shared.
• I take this as additional confirmation (like folks here have been suggesting) in these early days of couples counseling, that establishing a bridge to my wife is his primary priority.
• So first I answered honestly: I am feeling all sorts of things.
• Then I answered honestly AND accordingly: I feel very sad that she is so hurt.  I myself hurt knowing that her heart is in pain.  I don't ever want her to feel devalued, and I am so sad that she's in that place.  And I'm sad knowing that my words in the email to my friend played a role in all that.  I do feel a sense of responsibility, and that hurts.
• He asked if the responsibility felt like guilt.
• I said no, it feels more like blame than guilt.  (What I did NOT say was guilt would indicate I had somehow done something wrong, which I don’t think I had.)
• The whole time I was thinking: keep this wife-focused, keep this wife-focused, don't overshare, don't explain, don't share any other “you” feelings.
• Then he said something along the lines of: I bet you didn't want to hurt your wife or devalue her and you wish you had a place to share those feelings. But you are trying to keep things off her and carry it all yourself.  At which point I started BAWLING and went into overdrive trying to pull it together.
• I thought: this HAS to be confirmation.  He's gotta know what’s going on.  I feel known.
• He then asked me "Do you think you can turn to your wife and tell her that?"
• I had a thousand thoughts fill my head in a split second: I can't tell her that... I get ROASTED any time things even lean that direction... That's not what we're doing here... I can't even talk at all right now... It's enough for me to hear YOU say it... I'm understood and I don't want to loose that... I can't say anything...
• So what I said while choking back tears was "I can't go there."
• He then asked if I could at least express the hope that *someday* we'll get to that place?
• I started crying all over again.  Thinking: Don't make me go there... Don't make me hope... The only way I'm surviving is through the acceptance that ‘this is what it is,’ to learn the dynamics, to learn the tools I need... Don't give me hope that it could look different - I'll mess things up if I loose that focus.
• So I said "Right now I can't even go *there*
• At that point he turned back to my wife, shifted topics, and never addressed me again.
• For the remainder of the session huge regrets started growing in me: “I’ve blown it. I had a chance to talk, with his approval, with his guidance, and I missed it. I've collected myself now. I could talk now.”  But he never swung back to it and was pressing into some other pretty touchy topics with my wife.
• I realized the ONLY thing of content I'd actually shared was a validation that my email to my friend was a hurtful thing to my wife.  Maybe I'm not known?  Maybe the only thing I've inadvertently confirmed is that "I did something very wrong; yep I'm the problem even though I didn’t try to be."
• So I felt terrible through the rest of the session.
• Until the very end when he said something that I'm choosing to listen to through the lens of hope.  He closed by saying, "I think your husband's silence today means he knows your feelings are important, and he doesn't want to unintentionally distract from that.  He knows things he's said in the past have caused harm, and he doesn't want to do it again.  I'm going to try to help him learn how not to do that."
• On the one hand, that kind of sounds like: he’s the problem, he’s responsible for your emotional state.  On the other hand, if someone was onboard knowing there's a personality disorder in play, it sounds no different than all the talk here about gaining tools to navigate (emotionally abusive?) bpd relationships.
• Whatever the case, I did leave feeling hopeful.  And also wondering if my silence communicated FAAAR more clearly than any words even could have.
• My wife on the other hand has a completely different take.  Immediately afterward she said “What you did was a ‘cop out’.”  And every day since then has been full of anger and accusations and assertions: That not explaining why I had done something so wrong, something so offensive, is a sign of me being an abuser.  She had shared in counseling, but I had refused to talk and that's me trying to control her.  That I don't treat her as an equal.  What the counselor said about me caring about her sounds ridiculous.  Do I even love her?  She can't go on like this.  Years of me treating her like a child, like an inferior.  Spreading it around that she's a liar.  Crushing her.  Manipulating her.  That I don’t know all she has had to endure.  I don't know how bad it is right now.  It's clear to "us" (her and the others she's telling) that I'm trying to control her by not talking, etc, etc.
• So it's rough.  I'm trying not to jade in response.  I’m still not good at it.  I realize I accidentally jade when trying to communicate why I'm not jade-ing : "You are trying to control me by not talking" "No, I'm sincerely just trying to move forward wisely" "Oh, so you are wise - that means you think I'm stupid then."
• Yes, I do have a lot to learn.

[pursuingJoy]

oh my goodness AaZz - so sorry an innocent effort to seek healthy support from a person who didn't have a vested interest turned out this way. I can imagine how it made her feel, and how it made you feel.

Throughout the whole fit, I avoided any and all JADEing.  I didn’t take any of the bait of correcting false assertions or explaining my feelings..  I tried to keep things from escalating by solely validating her feelings, by saying sorry for how what I had written had  hurt her, saying that it makes sense that reading something like that would be troubling.

Well done. Wow.

So your wife got upset that you didn't talk more during the session. Considering her past habit is to goad you into invalidating her with JADEing, I think her being upset is actually a sign you're on the right path. You tried something different, and it actually worked. Nothing magical, but it moved things into a different position and deescalated the situation as much as possible. Shifting the dynamic upsets people. Things feel 'off' and it makes them anxious. It's to be expected from her. As the pattern is repeated and becomes more familiar, she'll calm down too.

I'm far, FAR more interested in the fact that YOU left the session feeling some measure of peace. Again, a great sign that this is headed in a healthier direction. Talk to me about that, what were you feeling?

[EZEarache]

• My wife on the other hand has a completely different take.  Immediately afterward she said “What you did was a ‘cop out’.”  And every day since then has been full of anger and accusations and assertions: That not explaining why I had done something so wrong, something so offensive, is a sign of me being an abuser.  She had shared in counseling, but I had refused to talk and that's me trying to control her.  That I don't treat her as an equal.  What the counselor said about me caring about her sounds ridiculous.  Do I even love her?  She can't go on like this.  Years of me treating her like a child, like an inferior.  Spreading it around that she's a liar.  Crushing her.  Manipulating her.  That I don’t know all she has had to endure.  I don't know how bad it is right now.  It's clear to "us" (her and the others she's telling) that I'm trying to control her by not talking, etc, etc.
• So it's rough.  I'm trying not to jade in response.  I’m still not good at it.  I realize I accidentally jade when trying to communicate why I'm not jade-ing : "You are trying to control me by not talking" "No, I'm sincerely just trying to move forward wisely" "Oh, so you are wise - that means you think I'm stupid then."
• Yes, I do have a lot to learn.

Yes, we all have a lot to learn here. I think you are doing the best you can with the understanding that you have available.

Your therapy sessions do sound similar to the ones I was in, before I made the mistake of saying, "I'm getting to the point where I don't want to get back together." This was while I was getting berated for things that had happened years before. Instead of asking why I felt that way, she just decided the relationship was over and said something like, "I can move on like that." and snapped her fingers.

I think in the same session, I said you are the root cause of our problems. The therapist replied, "No, your reactions to her are the cause of the problems." He was still trying to teach me how to manage her dysregulation.  Unfortunately, it turned into a back and forth text exchange about who was gaslighting who after the session. Fortunately for me, she had already screamed at the therapist in a previous session for treating me wrong. She subsequently gave the therapist a bad review on Google. So the therapist pretty much agreed with my assessment of her, after that.

Refresh my memory, why is it impossible to schedule a one on one session with the counselor? I think you deserve to provide your perspective in a safe place with the therapist and explain what your objectives are for the therapy sessions moving forward.

[AaZz]

I'm far, FAR more interested in the fact that YOU left the session feeling some measure of peace. Again, a great sign that this is headed in a healthier direction. Talk to me about that, what were you feeling?

I spend so much time lonely.  Unheard.  Unknown.  Misrepresented.  Told what I am thinking and feeling.  Told I've done and said things I never have.  Horrible things at that.  It's isolating.  It's such a tiny experience.  But I felt hope that one more person out there might know me -- someone 'official', someone 'professional', not even a random listening ear.  To think this counseling experience might have a second person onboard who gets what life with a bpd wife is like - AND could also speak into hers! - it felt like my world just doubled.

Refresh my memory, why is it impossible to schedule a one on one session with the counselor? I think you deserve to provide your perspective in a safe place with the therapist and explain what your objectives are for the therapy sessions moving forward.

The problem is that we did it already.  Somewhere around week 3, my wife and I both had our own one-on-one sessions.  I know she presented some of her wounds - a mix of things I legitimately have done that have caused hurt - which I have owned and apologized for 1000 times over - but also presented things that are distortions she holds as well as things that never happened.  For my session, I was so flustered, I really shared almost nothing.  Ahead of time I kept thinking: I have days worth of information to give, there's no way to fit it into a single session! I don't even know which of it is the most important, which of it is relevant!  I didn't want to straight up say "borderline" because I thought (probably stupidly) that it would be discounted if it came from me.  I was trying to figure out how to give meaningful information so he could make his own conclusions, but I failed in coming up with a way how.  My own therapist suggested that instead of trying to encapsulate a whole two-decade history, I instead just tell him how I am feeling now, at this moment.  So I tried that, basically telling him that I work so hard to communicate her worth and value, and she perceives it as the complete opposite.  That she hears things people haven't said.  That she reads offense and cruelty into normal human interactions.
In response, he shared a TON of info he had already gathered in our first few meetings - and it seemed he was trying to reassure me.  He said that he could tell she has a negative dialog running through her head all day.  That she has defense mechanisms of blaming others.  He perceived her critical childhood.  He said gently that I was enabling - that I work so hard to take her discomfort away she has never learned to deal with her brokenness.  That I needed to speak without censoring myself and trust that he would help her through her distress.
All of that I was totally on board with!  I didn't think I needed to share any more.  But then when I started put into practice what he'd told me, speaking honestly, saying things I normally would have censored -- I ended up feeling completely betrayed.  She presented those conversations flipped, he validated her narrative without any input from me, and later when I did finally give input, her earlier narrative was validated a second time while I was held responsible for her not believing mine.
I thought - what the heck is going on - THIS is not what we talked about.  So in my distress I wrote him and told him how I was feeling, that I was doing what he'd said and it seemed I was being thrown under the bus, and asked if I misunderstood what was going on.  He replied back that part of his goal was for both of us to speak and have both of our experiences understood an accepted by the other person even if we didn't see things the same way.  This puts me in a bind, because some of her new accusations - things she's apparently held for a long time, but I'm just now hearing - are horrendous, and cannot fall into an 'agree to disagree' camp.  And he's straight up asking me to accept them.
The other complicating factor is that the day I wrote him, my wife asked me if I was communicating with him behind her back.  (A very 'can you call it paranoia if it happened' situation)  I answered honestly and she responded, rightly so, that it was a betrayal of trust, that we should not be saying things to him in private that the other person was not privy to.  In hindsight I should have totally asked first about contacting him with clarifying questions and concerns.  Then it could have gotten an okay -- or we could have talked decided not to.  But I blew it.  And I promised she would never have to worry about me talking to him one on one in the future, she could set that concern aside.
But man, if I could have a one-on-one session do-over, I would go about it completely different.  I know exactly what I'd say now.