It's time to plan an exit

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My uBPDw and I had our second therapy session.  I know- only our second and I'm saying "it's time to plan an exit" seems dramatic.  However the session, and subsequent evening really illuminated that it's unlikely this is marriage will ever be healthy without some drastic action.

I've contacted a local crisis resource to help make a plan.  My wife's behavior is becoming increasingly abusive and is now beginning to border on physical abuse with the kids.
She's now had two CPS investigations on her (both of which have been closed).  I'll be in touch with a case manager from a local crisis center soon.  My wife does not work, I'm full time employed (plus consulting) and I work from home entirely.  She's set to homeschool them but we have a fantastic school a few blocks away that they did attend briefly pre-covid.

I think it'd be best for everyone if she left (at least for a month or so).  I don't know where she'd go.  We do have some family in the area but I'm not sure her Aunt (who's been aware of the BPD behavior) would let her stay nor would my wife likely stay with her.  My W's mother is a few states away but I think that's everyone's best option.  I think it's that or she goes to a local in patient facility to be evaluated for at least a week- but she's threatened to kill herself multiple times if she's ever forced to one of those places.

I realize that all of this will be seen as an attack and will likely be the end of our marriage.  Thats fine.  This isn't healthy and the kids and I don't deserve to be treated like this.  I want to do this as by-the-books as possible to increase the likelihood of me getting full custody.

Any advice or experiences with a similar situation?

[Guts42]

My uBPDw and I had our second therapy session.  I know- only our second and I'm saying "it's time to plan an exit" seems dramatic.  However the session, and subsequent evening really illuminated that it's unlikely this is marriage will ever be healthy without some drastic action.

I've contacted a local crisis resource to help make a plan.  My wife's behavior is becoming increasingly abusive and is now beginning to border on physical abuse with the kids.
She's now had two CPS investigations on her (both of which have been closed).  I'll be in touch with a case manager from a local crisis center soon.  My wife does not work, I'm full time employed (plus consulting) and I work from home entirely.  She's set to homeschool them but we have a fantastic school a few blocks away that they did attend briefly pre-covid.

I think it'd be best for everyone if she left (at least for a month or so).  I don't know where she'd go.  We do have some family in the area but I'm not sure her Aunt (who's been aware of the BPD behavior) would let her stay nor would my wife likely stay with her.  My W's mother is a few states away but I think that's everyone's best option.  I think it's that or she goes to a local in patient facility to be evaluated for at least a week- but she's threatened to kill herself multiple times if she's ever forced to one of those places.

I realize that all of this will be seen as an attack and will likely be the end of our marriage.  Thats fine.  This isn't healthy and the kids and I don't deserve to be treated like this.  I want to do this as by-the-books as possible to increase the likelihood of me getting full custody.

Any advice or experiences with a similar situation?

[Couper]

Any advice or experiences with a similar situation?

Only on the homeschool thing.  I have a thread going with my own personal experiences with that.  Given everything that is on your plate and hers, it sounds like taking this on in the midst of all the chaos would be a huge mistake.  She will be overloaded and the kids will never get a break.  I certainly don't know all of the motivations for your considering it, but I would suggest that you proceed cautiously.

I've tried to follow your other threads but it gets tough for me to keep everyone's stories straight after awhile.  My apologies if this has already been discussed, but I would only add that if you don't presently have a lawyer -- get one now (experienced with BPD's) and heed their advice on how to proceed with all of this.  Thus far with all of the recorded incidents, I would have to believe the law is on your side, but one wrong move could quickly unravel all of that in what seems to be the propensity of the courts to favor the mother (sorry if the generalization offends anyone, but the bias in the family court system seems to be well-documented).

[kells76]

if you don't presently have a lawyer -- get one now (experienced with BPD's) and heed their advice on how to proceed

Agreed.

Be cautious of making decisions based on assumptions that "she probably won't X" or "I don't think she'd ever Y".

I do think that in your time here, you've had some eye-opening experiences about what she will or won't do. So I don't think you're naive about your situation. It's more just a reminder, now that you've decided what you and your kids need (versus not being sure or still deciding), not to "hope that saying Z will mostly cover it" or "be afraid that she'll feel like clause P is too mean to her".

With the help of a L, when coming up with a parenting plan/living situation plan, cover all the bases 110% and have more detail than "normal people" think is necessary.

Of course, like you mention, with her behavior escalating, making a safety plan with the crisis center is exactly the right move.

If there ever comes a time when you need to leave the home for safety, take the kids with you, no matter what. Have your safety plan include that. Given where things are sadly at in your family situation, I cannot envision any scenario where you would need to leave (even "temporarily") but "it'd be OK for the kids to be with her".

I guess in terms of "acute", that's the first thing on my list -- always keep in mind that if you need to leave for safety, the kids go with you, period, no matter how angry she gets or whatever. So, include go-bags for them in your car, for example.

Really sorry it's come to this. I hope for all of you that she will be receptive to getting help and getting healthy.

[Guts42]

Thanks everyone.  I've been putting off packing a bug-out bag for me and the kids.

I just did.  It was hard to do, especially since things seem "okay" right now.  I keep reminding myself that things aren't really "okay" they're just not volatile at the moment and if/when things do escalate there will be no time to pack!

[kells76]

Exactly. Better to have it all ready, and never need it, than really need it to keep your kids safe, and not be able to pack in the moment.

Kudos for getting that done. I know this was never how you wanted things to be.

[ForeverDad]

If there ever comes a time when you need to leave the home for safety, take the kids with you, no matter what. Have your safety plan include that. Given where things are sadly at in your family situation, I cannot envision any scenario where you would need to leave (even "temporarily") but "it'd be OK for the kids to be with her".

I guess in terms of "acute", that's the first thing on my list -- always keep in mind that if you need to leave for safety, the kids go with you, period, no matter how angry she gets or whatever. So, include go-bags for them in your car, for example.

Some of this advice blends from one into the next...

Avoid home schooling.  You need to be the parent responsible for the children's education and in more ways than one.  Kids thrive in social interactions with other children.  Besides the poor guidance she would provide, once she is "in charge" then it would be hard to get that status to change.

My experience... It took me 8 years in and out of family court to go (1) from alternate weekend dad, (2) to joint equal time dad, (3) to full custody dad, (4) to majority time during the school year dad.  I was informed and determined enough that I sought and got a settlement when I exited the divorce with being the school parent.  That status was so helpful because she moved a few times and I avoided having to follow her moves to stay an involved parent.  But it still took that long because, as my lawyer explained it, courts prefer small incremental improvements so as not to shock the children (with big improvements).

Despite her obvious mental health issues (much more evident than my ex's behaviors) the legal system may not be very inclined to connect her mental issues to her parenting issues.  Mothers are often defaulted to preferred status when parenting and schooling is to be contested.  This is the time to stand up for being the mature, responsible and stable parent.

You may risk facing allegations of DV or child abuse even though she's the one that has had encounters with police and/or mental health professionals.  Do not discount the extent of desperation or retaliation a parent can inflict on the other while using (misusing) the legal system intended to protect victims.  She could very likely pose as a victim to gain some advantage, to punish you or to manipulate you back to her.

Be aware.  Beware.

[Couper]

Exactly. Better to have it all ready, and never need it, than really need it to keep your kids safe, and not be able to pack in the moment.

Exactly.  Same reason for keeping fire extinguishers around.

[Selfishsally]

Everybody is giving you great advice!
I am in the beginning of my seperation journey and its not easy and lots of things are already happening.
But, I just want to encourage you and tell you that you will not regret it!
Best of luck!

[ForeverDad]

Question... Do either of you own the current residence?  If it's hers then it's good you're finding somewhere else to reside.  If it is yours (or it is joint ownership and you're likely to end up with the residence) then you will at some point want her to relocate permanently.

I may be mixing up members' posts here, but beware of moving out and the kids not having at least half the overnights with you from the start.  They will quickly get used to it, even enjoy it, and if you delay starting their overnights with you then that sets a bad precedent for her and officialdom to assume she's in charge of parenting.

While you can't actually force her to do anything she doesn't want to do, beware of acquiescing too quickly.  Look at it this way... view your 50% overnights as a firm Boundary.  (Not to mention, you care for the kids so much already.  And odds are that the less she has to do on her own with them, the more quickly she may get accustomed to the new arrangement.)  Does that help?

[Guts42]

ForeverDad, we're actually renting the place at the moment and it is in both our names.  We wanted to feel out the area before we bought... and then covid hit!

[Guts42]

Talking with my case manager and a legal advisor next week!  The local resource center called me back and I'm officially a client.

Here's my short term action list/things I've done so far:

1. Pack bug out bag and hide at safe place
2. Identify a hotel and keep it on speed dial (I've got a card on file with this brand)
3. Need to call the local school to discuss re-enrolling*
4. Get a list of specific protocol questions together for my meeting

*the homeschool thing is tough.  I've thought the kids need to go back and that was the plan... but it's always something.  My W did take them to a homescho group meeting the other day and the kids hung out with other kiddos the same age!  They came back beaming and happier (and got along with each other!) better than they have in awhile.
To this I suggested that I think when covid numbers drop (hopefully soon) they should go back, maybe even after winter break to make it easier.  She did not like this!  She keeps insisting that she's the only one who can keep them safe.  I feel like covid was just an convenient (and tragic) coincidence... because before that she said she wanted to homeschool because she's convinced they're going to die in a school shooting.  I was able to keep that at bay but then the school's distance learning plan came out which was crazy so we went with homeschool.  The good news it exposed ALOT of not okay behavior and I've documented a good amount.
I'm hoping that if/when everything goes down me having initiated the talk with the nearby school will help.

Again, my wife doesn't work and hasn't been able to keep a job longer than 8 or nine months since we met.  At the time I didn't think anything of it.

[Guts42]

Writing this as yet another reminder.  Sometimes I question myself-am I being dramatic? Is all this planning worth it?

The kids love spending time at their great Aunt's house.  In fact one of their favorite made up stories to play out is escaping to a "fictitious" character's house the call "The Aunt" in order to force an escaped dinosaur to be on its best behavior.
My daughter has been wanting to play at her house for weeks now.  I tried to take them last weekend but my W shot it down hard, she made up plans on the spot that magically fell through.  Yesterday I had The Aunt text me and my wife directly asking if the kids wanted to come over.  My wife told her no and that she had a migraine.  The Aunt then suggested that I bring the kids over so she could rest.  My wife totally ignored this.
She went over to the kids, who seconds ago asked if they were going over, and TOLD them that they really didn't want to go anywhere and that THEY wanted to rest.  They caved and my W was in the best mood she's been in for weeks.
That night when I tucked in the kids my son was almost in tears about not being able to go over.

My D has also started to react like she's going to get hit whenever my wife snaps at or corrects her.  She repeats "I'm sorry, I'm sorry!" and will often start crying.  My W blames this behavior on me, saying that I frequently over react to her scolding or correcting me and that now our D has picked up on it and magnified it by ten.  I've never seen my wife hit the kids and my D has never reported something like that to me.  My wife repeats her latest mantra, "It's not fair!  Everyone in this house makes me feel like a monster! I'm allowed to be frustrated!  I didn't do anything wrong!"

[Guts42]

This can't wait.
Things are getting out of hand.

I officially have retained legal services and will be having my first consult in a few days.

My W's behavior is getting increasingly abusive towards me and the kids (especially my daughter who is showing signs that she's aware her mother's treatment isn't okay)

The most heartbreaking and damming thing... during one of my wife's outings my daughter came to me in the office, sobbing saying she wishes CPS would've taken her mom away.  She was hysterical and shaking.  She said when she asked (way back when my W told her CPS was coming to talk with us) "are they going to separate us?" it's because she WANTED them to take her mother away because "maybe if they took her away they'd make her better and maybe she'd love me."
She then told me she was too scared to say anything to the agent in front of her mother.
My son has also repeatedly told me he's scared to disagree with his mother and that's why he's scared of me going away overnight- they're scared to be alone with her for more than a few hours.

[kells76]

I think you're seeing things clearly. It is out of hand, and profoundly impacting your children.

While your legal consult is still a few days away, consider planning out leaving with the kids, soon, if needed.

There is an aunt in the area, right?

Consider starting to plan for you and the kids to stay with her, sooner rather than later. Start the planning process while you still have a little breathing room -- of course, things can escalate quickly, so don't drag it out "because you need to stick with the plan". Your kids' safety comes first, so sometimes you need to have flexible thinking and pivot quickly to getting them out.

OK, and I see that you've also got a hotel on speed dial. Great to have two options for places to stay.

If there are any pets that need care, either take them along (if you have the time to plan), or figure out care for them while you are out of the house. Could be one less stressor if you can know they're taken care of.

So, you've done great with your short term action list. You've got your BoB, the hotel on speed dial, you have the kids' schooling on your radar.

Can you make sure the kids' bags are ready and with yours?

I know school is starting soon. Maybe have kids' physical safety as #1, and school enrollment a little further down the list. It's OK if they don't start on Day 1. There is a lot going on in your life. So give yourself a little breathing room there. Get them safe, then figure out school.

My "vibes" are saying that unfortunately you leaving with the kids is a sooner rather than later thing. Maybe keep that mindset so you can be ahead of things. It may need to happen before your legal consult. In fact, this just struck me -- is your consultation in person, away from the house? Make sure the kids aren't left alone with their mom for that. Get them out at the aunt's, at a friend's house, at a sitters, or in the waiting room of your L's office. Not at home.

One bright spot I see in your posts is how good your kids do when they are with other kids. They really thrive on that interaction. So getting them into some kind of official school setting with other kids is going to be a wonderful thing for them.

Sorry this is all over the place. One more thought -- we never had to do this, but I recall hearing about "ex parte" orders. I think it has to do with "my kids are in imminent danger and I have to get emergency custody of them". This may be in play in your situation.

I'm really glad you are able to keep posting here. Whatever happens, keep putting your kids' safety first, and don't leave them at home alone with their mom for any reason until you guys can get out. I'm also really sorry it has turned out this way.

[ForeverDad]

She then told me she was too scared to say anything to the agent in front of her mother.

The children should have been interviewed not just apart from the parent(s) but also in a place the kids would be more likely to consider neutral and safe.  Or at least less unsafe.  Sounds like the interviewers need a do-over.

My son was twice interviewed away from his mother, she was there or nearby every other time.  I recall the first time was when he was in kindergarten and at school.  Clearly the local CPS investigators viewed school as a neutral place.  Still, I worried about whether his knowing he was delivered there and picked up there by his mother might have tainted his interview but fortunately it worked out okay.

For me, his interview encounters were away from me every time but once, at the end.  That was when her lawyer filed with the court for him to have an in camera meeting with the magistrate and GAL together.  By then court was alert to the case history and "just so happened" to schedule it on my time and so he knew I was the one waiting outside.

[Guts42]

There is an aunt in the area, right?
...
Can you make sure the kids' bags are ready and with yours?
...
I know school is starting soon.

Thanks!
1. Yup, about 15 minutes away.
2. My bag and theirs are already at the Aunt's house
3. Already got a pulse on how to re-enroll them!  But that's a really good point!

[Guts42]

The children should have been interviewed not just apart from the parent(s) but also in a place the kids would be more likely to consider neutral and safe.  Or at least less unsafe.  Sounds like the interviewers need a do-over.

Agreed.  Kids are starting at a new therapist in a few days as well.  My daughter confided in me that she wants to make sure her brother won't be in the room with her because she wants to tell the new therapist what happened and what she wanted to tell the CPS agent.  My daughter seems a bit angry she didn't get the opportunity to talk when she was here.

[kells76]

You're doing great. Your kids want to tell the truth. Hang in there and keep them safe until you guys can settle temporarily at Aunt's or the hotel.

Really glad you are able to post and let us know you guys are OK so far.

Praying your family gets peace and healing... all of you.

[I Am Redeemed]

It's good that your daughter wants to confide in the therapist. The CPS interview should absolutely have been done out of the mother's presence, but my guess is that since the allegations were not about physical or sexual abuse or neglect, the interview was more of a "check this off the list" thing for the agent.

Writing this as yet another reminder.  Sometimes I question myself-am I being dramatic? Is all this planning worth it?

The kids love spending time at their great Aunt's house.  In fact one of their favorite made up stories to play out is escaping to a "fictitious" character's house the call "The Aunt" in order to force an escaped dinosaur to be on its best behavior.
My daughter has been wanting to play at her house for weeks now.

I would tell your kid's T about this game. Children exposed to trauma may engage in repetitive play that attempts to make sense of the traumatic event(s). I think it's pretty clear that the dinosaur represents your wife and the kids hope that escaping to the aunt's house will impact their mother's behavior.

Kid's will often try desperately to emotionally affect an abusive or neglectful parent, and when they can't, they conclude they are unlovable.

Will the kids have separate sessions with the therapist?

[mart555]

My W's behavior is getting increasingly abusive towards me and the kids (especially my daughter who is showing signs that she's aware her mother's treatment isn't okay)

Yup, she's likely realizing that your mind is set on leaving.  It will likely be worse before it gets better so be ready for the extinction burst, just like a toddler having a tantrum. 

[ThanksForPlaying]

Yup, she's likely realizing that your mind is set on leaving.  It will likely be worse before it gets better so be ready for the extinction burst, just like a toddler having a tantrum. 

Right.  Having a plan, having self-confidence, knowing that we will be ok - these things all show in our everyday behavior and actions.  Friends will sometimes notice these changes in us and notice some extra "pep in our step".  pwBPD sense that, and they also sense that their outbursts are not affecting us in the same way they once did.  This is when they often step up the tantrums - sometimes leading to an extinction burst.

[Guts42]

You're absolutely right.

I made the grievous mistake of going up to brush my teeth and get ready for bed without her a few nights ago.  Wow the fall out from that was colossal.  I get up at 5am to workout and start my day while she sleeps until whenever.  I would go to bed on my own but she's made it clear previously that if I don't convince her to go to bed when I do she might stay up all night, not get any sleep, and then be too tired to keep her mood in check around the kids (... yeah... she was homeschooling).
After negotiations failed to pull the 30-something-year-old away from her video game, I gave up at 1115pm and said I was going to go up and get ready for bed... not GO to bed but just get ready.

The accusations that followed ranged from "you're cheating on me, I know it!" to "you made the kids scared of me because you act like you're scared of me and that isn't fair!" and everything in between.  Lots of talk about how I've been acting "weird" for weeks... and by that she means I've gone to the store while I'm out without asking permission for things we need and are on our shopping list.

[Guts42]

Talking to my attorney tomorrow!  Any advice or questions I should ask?

[kells76]

Talking to my attorney tomorrow!  Any advice or questions I should ask?

Some ideas, in no particular order:

Does my situation "fit" getting some kind of ex parte custody order?

Share this with him:

during one of my wife's outings my daughter came to me in the office, sobbing saying she wishes CPS would've taken her mom away.  She was hysterical and shaking.  She said when she asked (way back when my W told her CPS was coming to talk with us) "are they going to separate us?" it's because she WANTED them to take her mother away because "maybe if they took her away they'd make her better and maybe she'd love me."
She then told me she was too scared to say anything to the agent in front of her mother.
My son has also repeatedly told me he's scared to disagree with his mother and that's why he's scared of me going away overnight- they're scared to be alone with her for more than a few hours.

and see if you need to escalate/press assertively for getting CPS to re-interview the kids.

If that is a "need-to-have", where does it fit on the timeline. Do you do that, and then leave with the kids for the aunt's house?

Or, is it OK to leave with the kids, then set up the CPS interview?

Do you "have to" wait for your W to "do something crazy" to have a reason to leave with the kids?

Is the documentation from CPS enough at this point that you DON'T have to "wait for her to do something crazy" to be justified in taking the kids?

Is there anything you should do to cover your legal bases once you leave the home with the kids? I.e., do you need to have the kids call her that night to say Hi (to prove you're not "withholding" them)?

If you're leaving because of safety concerns, how can you make sure that you're not inadvertently communicating that it's fine for her to have the house?

...

Again, if this meeting with your attorney is out of the house, please make sure your kids aren't home alone with your wife for that time.

[Guts42]

Wow, what a call...

The great legal rep (this is a private firm, not the local resource) gave me the impression that this is so cut and dry (from a legal/custody standpoint) that I might not even need their help.  My wife needs help, will not seek it on her own, and will likely not take it even when a condition of seeing her children.

I will absolutely use an attorney but I might see what the resource group has to offer before I shell out about $10k.  This firm did seem great and if I needed to I could swing it and they'd take care of everything for me.

I have some action items to do in the meantime (prep an affidavit, organize my notes/logs, etc) but the good news is that she made it clear we DO NOT have to wait for an event but that if (WHEN) it does happen I'm to call the police and inform them of the situation and what I want to do.  I have a few rights to invoke as the abuse victim and father of children being abused by their mother.

This is scary but hearing from an attorney and getting official advice has made a world of difference already.  In some ways it feels more "real" now which is absolutely terrifying but in other ways I feel like there's some real hope here.

Kells - she said this is absolutely a situation where an ex parte applies.  In fact she said based on all the different professionals involved I could likely get a 2 year protective order that would only be removed (after the two years) IF my wife abides by the plan gets into therapy.

[GaGrl]

What relief you must feel after hearing from a lawyer familiar with these types of situations!

The retainer fee sounds reasonable. Once you find out about other resources, you can weigh which would best serve you. (My divorce retainer was $4000, 30 years ago (!) for an uncontested divorce, with one child and property needing a settlement agreement.)

[Guts42]

Oh yeah it actually seems pretty cheap for a firm like this one.  However it's way more than I can afford!
I am hoping the help center will take my case.

I'm seeing the kids' old therapist today under the guise seeing my therapist.  My W's extinction bursts are getting out of control and more frequent.  Her abuse and manipulation is starting to put my health at risk and has triggered two panic attacks in my 9 year old (they day after her birthday!).  I'm gathering info and seeking guidance.  Their old therapist saw right through my W's act.

She's also begun to frequently accuse me of cheating on her.  She went through my phone and of course found nothing because I'm not cheating on her.  That didn't stop her from accusing me again before bed.

The good news is the kiddos are seeing a new therapist today!  My daughter is likely going to tell her everything.  As a mandated reporter I wouldn't be surprised if my W has another report filed against her.  If and when it does happen I'm going to be ready.  I'm drafting an affidavit now to petition for a protective order.  Part of it will involve a CPS sanctioned plan.  I've been deemed safe and capable of taking care of the kids as well as a victim of my W's relentless mental abuse.

I want my W to go stay with her Mom a few states over and seek in patient treatment.  During that time I'm going to file for divorce.  I'm done.  Now it's just a question of her getting help so she can have a relationship with the kids in the future.  I don't want her cut off from them.  I think she does love them but there's too much interference in her brain and that makes her a potential danger to them.

[Guts42]

Feeling some thick F.O.G. at the moment.
Talked with the kids' old therapist and she's agreed to file another report.

I also talked with my case manager and she sent me the paperwork for a protective order.  She also provided a few attorneys that her office works with that should be more affordable.

Feeling so torn.  This is going to destroy her... but she's clearly not capable of taking cable of them and she's actively abusing me (sleep deprivation is her new favorite game).  I had my cpap fitting appointment and today she's incapacitated claiming she couldn't sleep all night.

[LovelyRita50]

Working through the F.O.G. sounds so familiar, especially when making concrete plans and taking specific actions to get out of the relationship.

About your comment, "This is going to destroy her." Here's how I confronted and worked through that:

"Yes, my leaving will destroy her. My staying also would likely destroy her, and me along with her. Any relationship she has with anybody, even any stray comment or action she experiences from anyone, has the potential to destroy her.

"She has no 'emotional skin.' She cannot deal with her feelings in a healthy manner. Her dysfunctional coping strategies will continue to hurt her and anyone around her. If I stay, I enable the pain to continue for her, my children, and myself. If I leave, she will be hurt, but she would be hurting regardless of my actions. In leaving, I can ameliorate the pain for myself and my children and help us to have healthier, more joyful lives."

[kells76]

About your comment, "This is going to destroy her." Here's how I confronted and worked through that:

That stuck out to me, too.

SD13 was telling me the other day about a friend she had, who was getting into some trouble, so SD13 was distancing herself and cutting ties.

We talked about how she was grieving the friend she once had, the person this friend used to be, yet, as hard as it is, sometimes people need to hit rock bottom in order to see how hurtful and destructive they're being. So, the best thing SD13 could do for this friend is to distance herself so she can stay healthy and strong for when (if) this friend needs support after hitting rock bottom and turning her life around.

It could destroy your W if things stay the way they are.

Glad you are in touch with all the T's and authorities. Glad you are updating here! Good to hear that you are OK.