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Author Topic: How does one handle this?  (Read 445 times)
Notwendy
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« on: September 01, 2021, 06:13:28 AM »

BPD mom has been upset lately and has asked me to call her every day. Usually we speak about once a week, but she's upset about some things and is acting so pitiful. It's easier to deal with her when she's being mean, but when she's sweet and pitiful, I don't know if it's real or if she's being manipulative. I'm not sure what she's up to because she usually doesn't reveal her agenda.

She's had a mild medical illness but it's not serious thankfully and she's improving. She's also is saying she's depressed and wants me to call her every day to cheer her up. She's also saying things like " I am your mother and you are my daughter" - well yes but I don't know what she's trying to say with that.

It's not that big a deal for me to call her if she wants me to. It's that, I am on high alert- goosebumps over this because it feels like I am being manipulated.

While this is major FOG on my part, another is that, I know she's elderly, and that she is lonely and not feeling well. I call because, I don't want to be cruel and say no.

She has good medical care, so I don't worry about that but there's just no way to tell what is going on with her when she says she's not feeling well.

So I am going to go along with this for now, but am guarded.
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zachira
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2021, 07:23:31 AM »

Your mother insisting that you call her every day is concerning. It does sound like your mother is seriously depressed. At some point, calling your mother every day could be too much for your emotional health. The responsibility of calling your mother every day could be shared with others, possibly other relatives and some of her friends. Perhaps you can tell your mother you can't call every day though others will be checking in with her, and you will be calling more frequently. Can you get your mother evaluated for depression? What boundaries do you want to set with the phone calls?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 07:37:16 AM by zachira » Logged

Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2021, 07:55:48 AM »

I am hoping this is temporary.

She is under the care of a psychiatrist so I know she is being monitored for this.

For me, the boundary is recovery from the mild illness she is having. I hope once she gets better she won't feel this need. Of course, this is a hope.

The other concern for me is if she's trying to manipulate me into something else- that I don't know about but I have to stay with firm boundaries on this.

After about a week of this I plan to say we need to go back to the regular schedule as you are right, I don't think it's good to call every day and it's also under obligation. But I am trying this to see how it goes with her recovery as it's hard to know if she needs the support because she doesn't feel well or for some other reason.

I don't really know what else to do.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 08:20:14 AM »

I think the hard part for me is that any boundary is going to frame me as an ogre. How can you not be there for your elderly mother? It feels like a set up. And yet, she is elderly and alone, and that's tough for anyone.
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zachira
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2021, 08:27:28 AM »

You are a kind and caring daughter. I have so much respect and gratitude for the empathy you have shown for so many members here, including me. I am wondering what your plan for self care is before, during, and after these calls. It is extremely challenging to not let our mirror neurons get us enmeshed in the feelings of a emotionally dysregulated person, especially when that person is our mother.
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madeline7
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2021, 09:47:15 AM »

My elderly widowed uBPDm expects a call every day...unless she is upset with me or all 3 of her kids and decides to not pick up the phone. Then after her dysregulation has somewhat stabilized, she again expects everything to go back to the daily calls she needs and expects. It has always been like that. Always dictated by her moods, her needs , her expectations. If god forbid, I do not or cannot speak to her on a regular basis, I am a bad daughter. Well, I am a bad daughter no matter what, no matter how frequently or not I call, yet I find myself falling into the schedule that she dictates. It is harder not to feel compassion for her now that she is very old, widowed and becoming more frail. It wears me down, trying to balance being a caring daughter, and setting healthy boundaries. I find myself "remembering" past hurts that she inflicted upon me as a way to justify the reinforcement of these boundaries. In some ways that is helpful to make sure I take care of myself, yet at the same time it is harmful as it keeps me in the place of feeling hurt by all her vindictive and toxic behaviors.
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Methuen
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 10:13:01 AM »

Excerpt
She's also is saying she's depressed and wants me to call her every day to cheer her up. She's also saying things like " I am your mother and you are my daughter"
She’s trying  to make you responsible for her feelings.  I have been down this road so many times in the past.  If she’s depressed, no one will be able to make her feel better.  But she will need someone to blame for that too…

Is it possible for you to contact the psychiatrist, to share what you are seeing?  The psychiatrist will not be able to discuss your mother  because of confidentiality, but they may be able to receive your information.

Illness or injury is a major trigger of neediness for my mom.  During her recovery from her last fall a few months ago, she changed  into a sweet little girl voice and said “will you be my mommy?”This situation with your mom sounds a bit similar.  
I’m wondering if your mom’s neediness is also more emotional than physical, since she wants to talk to you on the phone every day? Also, are these quick calls, or are they dragging on?

A couple of possible ideas which may or may not work for your situation :  
1.  Set yourself a time  limit for each call and excuse yourself
2  If you have call display, don’t answer the phone if its not a good time for you.  Call her when it’s a better time for you
3. Remind her gently that she can also chat with her friends, who care about her a lot
4. Remind her gently that you are still working and have many obligations so a phone call every  day might not be possible, and you hope she understands that
5. Continue to use SET.  Try to recognize the underlying emotion,(often its fear) and then use a SET statement for the day.

I would add it might be important to address this earlier rather than later. I just worry about the dependence.  How easy will it be to wean her off of these calls if she comes to like it as the new normal?  I have had to set a lot of boundaries in the past few years.  It’s really tough to find the balance between caring and supporting without enabling and/or allowing yourself to be manipulated.

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GaGrl
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 11:21:31 AM »

"I am your mother, and you are my daughter."

 this has so many layers to peel away. Where to start?

It appears to be a bid for Obligation and Guilt.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 03:41:27 PM »

I called her this morning and told her I had long days at work and didn't think I could call her everyday. First, when she picked up the phone and I asked her how she was, she sounded so pitiful. But I have heard this before- it's the same script. Once I told her I wasn't going to call everyday she did something else she does frequently when she's angry which is to say she's tired and can't talk. At this point I said, please stay on the phone, I am on the way to work and I have time now to talk.

I asked her what's been going on lately that seems to have changed her moods. Then she began to act confused. I saw this when I visited her. But it's not real. It's an act this a lot when she's being asked questions. It's avoidance. I realize it is possible for her to be confused sometimes but the way she does this when being asked direct questions seems staged.

I asked her if she called her psychiatrist and she dismissed it. At this point she began to sound not waify or confused at all.

So we ended the conversation pleasantly. Then a few hours later I get a text " don't feel obligated to call me everyday but talking to you makes me feel better". I was at work and didn't answer. Now another one " I love you" with hearts.

She doesn't ever say she loves me and doesn't usually act like it. It feels creepy. I don't know what made her start this.

The hard part for me is that, at her age, I don't want to ignore any concerns, and yet, it feels icky, because it's her typical manipulations. I also do feel sorry for her in her situation, but I can't change her behavior.
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Methuen
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2021, 05:17:07 PM »

Oh Notwendy, I'm hearing and feeling for you right now.  This is the kind of stuff I've had to learn to deal with.  It's hard.  It's frustrating.  It's exhausting.  But like others have said, you also have to do what you need to do to take care of yourself.

I have followed the advice of so many people on this forum (including you) the last couple of years.  All of it has been helpful as I've started practicing the new strategies I've learned, which change the game.  You have mentioned a few times that you don't want to ignore any concerns, but it feels icky because you are certain based on past experience that there is manipulation going on.  It's like walking a tightrope between two tall buildings.

"Mom, how is your (minor illness) doing today?"  Avoid asking how she's "feeling"... as this is too general and she will see it as an invitation to talk about her emotional stuff, possibly dumping, most likely negative, and too exhausting for you.  Keep the discussion specific about whatever minor illness she is recovering from.  If it's a cough, hopefully only 5 coughs today instead of 10.  If it's an ear infection, maybe she was able to sleep a couple hours more since her antibiotics have kicked in.  I always try to steer the conversation to the "cup half full" way of seeing things. Baby steps. Slow and steady wins the race.  Sometimes I gently "remind" to focus on the positive.

Sometimes I think they panic when they start to feel better, because they are afraid the attention will be less, and they will be "abandoned" again. Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  So I'm careful to be aware of that in my interactions with her.  I believe my mom doesn't want to get better, because being waify is her way of having her needs met and getting attention.  I don't think it's intentional or conscious, it's just her psyche's way of being, and having her needs met.  If she truly wanted to get better, she would eat healthy, do her physio, practice sleep hygiene, and follow Dr's orders.  She doesn't do any of that.

Excerpt
I asked her what's been going on lately that seems to have changed her moods.
Great question.  It puts the ball back in her court.  She can sit with that for a while.

Excerpt
I asked her if she called her psychiatrist
Another great question.  It actually offers her a solution...at the same time as putting the ball back in her court.  You're really good at this. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
At this point she began to sound not waify or confused at all.
 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) This affirms that your questions were an excellent strategy.

Excerpt
So we ended the conversation pleasantly. Then a few hours later I get a text " don't feel obligated to call me everyday but talking to you makes me feel better".
Aha.  This is a crack in the door NW, and I actually see it as "progress".  She had some time to think about your boundary, and came back with this response (better than "she wants to talk to you every day so you can cheer her up").  It's probably the best you could hope for.  It's not great (still FOG), but it is an improvement, and something to build on.

Excerpt
I was at work and didn't answer.
Perfect.  This is exactly what I do.  Never EVER break your own boundary (of not contacting you at work) by actually answering her at work (unless it's a legit emergency and she's in the hospital), because you will undo all the good boundary work you have accomplished up to that point.  

Excerpt
Now another one " I love you" with hearts.
I don't answer these either.  Personally, I will no longer be obligated or obliged to say things I'm not genuinely feeling.  I will give her the loving messages on my terms when it feels truly genuine from me.

Excerpt
She doesn't ever say she loves me and doesn't usually act like it. It feels creepy. I don't know what made her start this.
It does feel creepy, and her emotional neediness started this.  My mom has gone through many phases of this.  I don't like it either, because it feels fake.  I don't play the game on her terms.  I play on my terms (mentioned in the previous paragraph). Trust me, this too shall pass.  It's simply a symptom of her emotional state, much as a hiccup is a symptom of too much excitement, a large meal, alcohol, or some other reason. Don't panic.  The love bombing will last for a bit, and then it will pass.

Excerpt
I don't want to ignore any concerns, and yet, it feels icky, because it's her typical manipulations
Right.  When I look strictly at what you've written it seems to be about her emotional neediness (BPD) rather than any serious or emergent medical problem.  Keep doing what you're doing, being aware of the depression issue.  

You handled all this much the way I handle the same stuff.  Boundaries.  Questions to get her to solve her own problems.  Stick to your own values, and stay genuine.  And look after yourself too.  

When I first started these techniques, it felt horrible - like a tornado churning inside me.  That's because we're changing the game and doing something different - we're playing our game - not hers (being her servant, her mother, and her punching bag - sometimes all in the same visit).  Be patient.  Stay in your lane.  Keep doing what you're doing, whilst being kind.

Excerpt
I also do feel sorry for her in her situation
 With affection (click to insert in post) Naturally you do...it's a really difficult thing to observe our parents aging and struggling because of the aging issues.  But at the end of the day, remember that she is an adult, capable of making her own decisions (good or bad).  We are there to support, but not to parent them or be "responsible for making them feel better".  







« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 05:28:42 PM by Methuen » Logged
Woolspinner2000
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2021, 08:50:47 PM »

Hi Notwendy,

I sure feel for you with this situation. All the concerns and boundaries are being poked at and what do you do with it? I agree with the others that when my uBPDm would say she was the mom and I the daughter, it implied obligation, control and FOG.

It seems as if elements/behaviours are coming together to create a very confusing scenario to try and figure out, a combination that you're not used to. Does it possibly trigger feelings of being young again, like a small child who doesn't quite know what to do and what will happen? .

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
Wools
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Notwendy
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2021, 04:48:39 AM »

Wools, that's an interesting question  cause, even as a child, I felt responsible for her feelings, so it doesn't invoke feelings of being a young child. I can identify feelings of fear.

I think strangely, it's safer when she's angry at me, because I know where she stands. Historically, if she's nice, it's a manipulation. The feeling I have when she's being nice to me is a sort of icky one.

The confusion for me is that, since she's elderly, it's possible she is feeling lonely, or sad, or not well. I know I am not responsible for her feelings, I don't want to add to them by not responding to her. But historically she has exploited this vulnerability so I feel a sense of unease with her requests.

The "I love you" feels creepy because it's not her normal. Her normal is being cold and unaffectionate.

As a little child, I of course wanted my mother to love me. There were times when this "good mom" appeared and somehow I believed that if only I was good enough, my parents would love me and tried to please them, but we know how that goes- I just couldn't feel good enough.  That dynamic doesn't work with me anymore since working on co-dependency.

Methuen, thanks for the insight. Yes, our dynamics are different as I don't respond to her as she wants- not to be mean but because I do question and set boundaries if I need to, and yet, it still feels difficult because it isn't what she wants. I am not quite certain what she wants- she doesn't usually tell me. Sometimes it isn't the actual thing she wants but she wants obedience and compliance- docile obedience.

Self care? It's not an issue for me to make a phone call. I make lots of phone calls during the day. So why does this request feel so icky? It just does and maybe also because I am acting on FOG.





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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2021, 06:49:55 AM »

Notwendy thanks for sharing. I'm so impressed at the balance you're striking between showing care for your mom and sustaining boundaries. The waif settings are some of the hardest to resist and untangle.

The fact that you feel fear piques my curiosity. What do you fear?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2021, 02:01:44 PM »

On a positive note, she says she feel better today.

Why the fear? Because a request doesn't have the option of saying no. It's more like a veiled threat. Saying no to my mother doesn't go very well. Yes, I can say no, but there's consequences.

Probably from when I was a child, because the rages were so frightening. Not so much now but still, I know that when she says "I want you to call me every day" she's not asking. She doesn't say "please". It's an order that comes with the expectation to obey.

The main feeling her kids have towards her is fear. We grew up afraid of her.
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Woolspinner2000
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 08:22:25 PM »

It's great that you're able to identify several feelings that you're having in this, Notwendy. Took me a long time to be able to dig deep enough to figure out what feelings even were, so I commend you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I have been thinking today about you, and there's something I remembered from the book Surviving a Borderline Parent that has been helpful to me. In the chapter titled, Trust Yourself, Set Boundaries, Build Self-Esteem, it says this:

Excerpt
Your intuition will go a long way in helping you know how to make the best choices-you have to trust it...Whether you refer to intuition as a little voice inside of you, following your heart, trusting your gut, following your instincts, your sixth sense, or "just a feeling," heed it. You do have the inner knowledge you need to make good decisions, even if you doubt it.

As you know already, it's impossible to judge or know what your mom is really trying to say or what her need is. I think that's the really sad part, imho, because if you knew what the real need was, in a heart beat you'd try and meet that need. In the meantime, I think it is healthy to keep protecting yourself and maintaining the boundaries that you feel are healthy for you.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
Wools
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There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind.  -C.S. Lewis
Notwendy
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 04:33:34 AM »

Thanks Wools- yes that intuition- it is helpful. For me, it felt manipulative and I agree, it's important to stay aware of feelings. I also had to work at this- I think we all do.

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