Was your BPD mother motherly to other children?

[zachira]

As I spend more time around family after not seeing them for two years, I keep getting gaslighted by certain cousins who insist my mother was a great mother and they tell touching stories about her being generous and caring. I have not made any reference to how I feel about my mother at all, as there is no point. One cousin tells the story of being scared in the graveyard and how my mother took her home. I do remember my mother seeming to really care and have empathy for other children and never her own. So many people tell me what a wonderful mother I had, yet it was obvious to me that many people had her number, and did not like how she treated her children and other people in general.

[Notwendy]

No, not at all. My mother has a need to be taken care of, so she doesn't usually engage small children. There are some neighbor kids she is nice to, but she isn't motherly to them.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Maybe you were somewhat lucky in that your mother was not able to fool other people into appearing to be motherly in some of the ways my mother did. You, others on PSI, and I have often written about how our dysfunctional parents have ways of fooling many people with their fake public image while mistreating those close to them behind closed doors.

[pursuingJoy]

Such an interesting question. In my MIL's case it depends on the age of the person, which maybe has to do with how much attention the individual can lavish on her. Agree with NotWendy - it's all about her.

My MIL has a few (not all) older nieces and nephews that say she's their favorite aunt. She dotes on her oldest granddaughter (29) but shows very little interest in younger ones who are still self-absorbed.

We know pwBPD hide behind their public image, so it's highly possible that they use interactions with kids to build a positive impression to outsiders.

[Notwendy]

There were other ways that people assumed she was motherly. Thankfully we kids did well in school, so people assumed all was well at home. For us, school was a happy place, we felt safe at school, and so did well there.

What is interesting is that she will ask about the kids, and when I tell her something like "I drove the kids to soccer" she then says "oh I remember doing that" but she didn't do much of that.  There is a young family in the neighborhood and the children treat her like a grandmother. When they visit she gives them cookies and is very kind to them. However, that's different from hands on parenting. So she can act motherly in the moment.

When my kids were little, she would visit, bring toys and act nice to them, which is good. But the hands on- the "work" of parenting: reading stories, playing with the kids. My dad did that but she didn't. There was a qualitative difference in how they each interacted with the kids, which parallels how they acted with their own kids. Dad got right in there, connected with them on their level. BPD mom's interactions were more detached. She'd interact with them for a few minutes but then lost interest and wandered off to do something else. The kids were too young to know any different but they emotionally bonded with my father and as they got older, had a connection to him. They don't have that bond with my mother.

[pursuingJoy]

when I tell her something like "I drove the kids to soccer" she then says "oh I remember doing that" but she didn't do much of that.

lollll yup my MIL makes up stories, I see my husband's quizzical face before he goes along with it

Good distinction to make about actual good parenting and doing motherly things. They are different.

[Methuen]

I do remember my mother seeming to really care and have empathy for other children and never her own. So many people tell me what a wonderful mother I had, yet it was obvious to me that many people had her number, and did not like how she treated her children and other people in general.

Oh my.  This touches close to home, except for the part that  many people have her number.

I don't think many people have my mother's number.  My mother is a master at having her needs met.  Now that she is old, and looks decrepit, she gets all kinds of people offering her assistance.  My take on it, is that she has not been motivated to take care of her body (eat healthy, stay as physically active as she can, and practice good sleep hygiene) because of all the attention she gets from looking frail. She figured that out early on, and it worked for her.  The frail body meets her emotional need for attention. I can see how her disease has set her up for this downward spiral.  It is such a dramatic change from when she was younger, and she was extremely physically active - 24/7.  Not only is she frail now, but her "presentation" to anyone really draws pity, and people are quick to offer assistance.  I can say with complete honesty that not one single person has ever approached me or even hinted that they might "have my mother's number".  Not people who know her well, not family friends, not my friends, no one.  But then I was married for 31 years before my husband witnessed first hand how she treated me...that's how good she is at concealing the Hyde to everyone but me.  Jekyll is what everyone else sees.

Zachira, The care and empathy part about other's people's children is a really interesting question which has sparked my curiosity.  My mother's mother died when mom was 14.  In the year before she died, my mom was the daughter who stayed home from school and took care of her.  It was a terrible thing to make a child do, and her death was a terrible one in many ways.  The father was abusive, and the family poor, so I guess my mom was child labour.  There was no love in the home.  The older sisters got married at 16 and left the home the first chance they got.  Reflecting back, my mom was "motherly" to several of my best friends, but this characteristic only lasted until we were maybe the age of 8 or 9.  That's probably about the time my mom's childhood ended.  Recently, I reconnected with a "best friend" that I had when I was 7.  She moved away when I was 9.  My mom "adored" her little sister who was about 4 at the time.  When the family moved away, my mom struggled with "losing" the little 4 year old whom she doted on.  Mom even told me recently that the mother had begged her to do child care for the little girl, because the mom wanted to work.  My mom told me she declined because she "wouldn't be able to give her back".  Really? That's your reason?  When the family moved away, my mom mourned the loss of the little girl.  I don't remember any "mothering" about me losing my best friend.  

This makes me wonder if our BPD mom's couldn't do "hands on" mothering with us, because they were afraid of losing us... i.e. don't get too close to something; that way it won't hurt when it's gone.  My mom grew up with gruffness, yelling, humiliation, and other things.  To this day, she barks orders to me.  But, to her friends, she asks politely for help.  No one could ever imagine how she speaks to me, because they don't see anything but her frail and polite side.

 

I tell her something like "I drove the kids to soccer" she then says "oh I remember doing that" but she didn't do much of that... When they visit she gives them cookies and is very kind to them. However, that's different from hands on parenting. So she can act motherly in the moment.

I can relate to this.  I think it meets their need to "look like others and fit in", especially about parenting. Things like "driving kids to soccer" is a physical chore, as is making cookies to give away to kids.  It makes them look good. But it doesn't actually involve hands on interaction (which is a skill).  My mother never held me or hugged me as a child.  I got that from my father.  My mother didn't start "hugging" until my H entered the picture, and started giving her hugs, which she decided she liked.  Then she wanted to hug me too, but it never felt genuine, since it didn't start until I was 26.

 My mother makes up stories too.  When our kids were growing up, and joining school sports teams, my mom claimed to have played volleyball, and talked big about being on the team.  One day, we bought and set up a volleyball net in the front yard on the grass (the kids were maybe 8/10yrs) and we had a game with her and my dad (who was still alive) and H and I.  My mom had the least skill of any adult in the game, and none of the rest of us had played much volleyball.  It became a private family joke. Private because it was never spoken about in front of her.  Even our kids growing up intuitively knew that they couldn't hurt her feelings by joking her.  To this day, if anyone is talking about volleyball, she will claim to "have been on a team" and add "I was really good".  

I do remember my mother seeming to really care and have empathy for other children and never her own.

My working theory is that their psyche is so damaged, they can't get too close to something (they love?), because they might lose it (that feeling of abandonment). Paradoxically, their treatment of us is what pushes us away from them, but they don't have the awareness to see that.  In the case of my mother who grew up in an abusive and toxic home, that is the negative language and behavior she uses on me when she is dysregulating, because those are the strategies she learned in childhood.  However, she also learned better strategies as she grew into adulthood, and those are the strategies she generally uses in public.  Maybe my theory is all wrong.  But it helps me to think of it that way, as it is a bit of an explanation for why she treats other people better than me, when I and H treat her so well, and do so much for her.

My mother's ability to appear "motherly" to other people's children disappears as the children get older - there's not much motherliness past the age of 8 for other people's kids, I don't think.

[zachira]

I do think Methuen is likely right that the mother with BPD can't get close to her own children because of her fears of abandonment. Probably the inability to have intimate relationships is another factor. I also think it is as others have described part of the false persona and the need to maintain a public image of being a good mother, that the mother with BPD acts like she is motherly with other children. In my family, there were several woman who acted motherly towards me yet were horrible mothers to their own children. There was one cousin who was terribly abused by both his parents, who adored my mother. I at one time adored his mother who was a good friend of my mother until I realized she was abusing her own son.

[Arbust91]

YES! My mother took in over 25 international students over the years. She was very supportive and kind to them while at the same time being wretched to me and my brother. After my brother died she took in 2 homeless young men. Of coarse at some point if these young people failed to live up to her expectations she would turn on them, some of them got thrown out of the house. She really liked compliant young women who always agreed or muscular young men that played sports and of coarse all had to have a high GPA.

[Notwendy]

I don't think many people have my mother's number.  My mother is a master at having her needs met.  Now that she is old, and looks decrepit, she gets all kinds of people offering her assistance.  My take on it, is that she has not been motivated to take care of her body (eat healthy, stay as physically active as she can, and practice good sleep hygiene) because of all the attention she gets from looking frail. She figured that out early on, and it worked for her.  The frail body meets her emotional need for attention. I can see how her disease has set her up for this downward spiral.  It is such a dramatic change from when she was younger, and she was extremely physically active - 24/7.  Not only is she frail now, but her "presentation" to anyone really draws pity, and people are quick to offer assistance.  I can say with complete honesty that not one single person has ever approached me or even hinted that they might "have my mother's number".  Not people who know her well, not family friends, not my friends, no one.  But then I was married for 31 years before my husband witnessed first hand how she treated me...that's how good she is at concealing the Hyde to everyone but me.  Jekyll is what everyone else sees.


Oh my goodness, my mother too. In her younger years, she was very beautiful and that got attention too. Now that she's elderly she is a master at getting her needs met.

However, because I am not her caregiver, and others do this, some have gotten close to her and seen Hyde come through. A friend mentioned she saw my mother snap and get mean at a nurse. She was surprised to see this as she hadn't seen it before. Unfortunately this is how my mother mostly is to me.

She has brought up "moving near me" again. I seriously panic when I hear this. I understand why. It's hard to say no to her as she acts so hurt, but she pushes boundaries so much, eventually I have to. Then I become the one who has hurt her feelings. Even when I do something nice for her, it's not enough and she pushes more and more until I have to resist. She also twists things when I do something nice. Subtle "no" doesn't work. She keeps it up until it's one big NO - then she acts so hurt. The only way to keep a boundary with her is to be harsh.

There are two choices for interacting with her. A compliant doormat who agrees to everything and allows her to be verbally and emotionally abusive, or the villain to her. Neither is acceptable. So the one big NO will happen if she brings this up again. It will be difficult but frequent contact with her is emotionally difficult.

[zachira]

The biggest lesson for me from this discussion is that we can't judge a book by its cover. I have found that two of the biggest red flags for narcissism are over the top charming behaviors and love bombing. I feel that I am impaired at seeing people for who they are instead of for who I would like them to be, though I have made great strides in being able to appreciate authentic people while putting up the healthier boundaries earlier with narcissists.
There are so many mothers in my family that I was bonded too and felt like that they gave me some of the kinds of attention that I craved from my own mother. The craziest part of all of this, is that these same mothers treated their own children badly, and their children adored my mother and still talk about how wonderful she was. I realize now that what I received from these mothers of my cousins was not love, and I was just another source of narcissistic supply for them. This trauma bonding has affected me in choosing the wrong friends and partners. Now my biggest challenge is no longer to see the red flags for narcissism and is instead to feel worthy of healthier relationships and to know how to make and keep friends and a partner. I find that I am light years behind many people, sometimes even very young children in knowing how to have healthy loving relationships with others and feeling worthy of self love.

[Methuen]

Now my biggest challenge is no longer to see the red flags for narcissism and is instead to feel worthy of healthier relationships and to know how to make and keep friends and a partner. I find that I am light years behind many people, sometimes even very young children in knowing how to have healthy loving relationships with others and feeling worthy of self love.

This has been quite the journey for you Zachira.  I am inspired by your tenacious pursuit of justice for youself, which includes happiness and love. Continuing  to see red flags will still be helpful in not falling for the wrong types again.  So I would still hang onto that.  You are absolutely worthy of healthy relationships with friends and a life partner.  You are an important and caring person, who can bring joy to others, and we are all worthy of receiving joy. The principle of reciprocity flows both ways in a healthy relationship.  As for feeling worthy of self love, please take extra good care of yourself today. How will you fortify your bank account of self love?  I am hopeful that once you have done that, the healthy relationships you yearn for will come more easily. You are so strong and determined, kind and helpful, and worthy!

[zachira]

Thank you Methuen.
The support of everybody on this site has been incredible! I am hoping one day to give back to all the people who have helped me here on PSI and elsewhere since childhood by giving to others. Right now, I am in the battle of my life, fighting to not be pummeled into giving my sister another platform to ruthlessly smear me by letting her buy the family cottage. I seem to be losing the battle and will likely have to sell it to her. It seems after any lawyer I hire engages with my NPD sister's lawyer, all of sudden, my lawyer stops trusting me and just wants to get rid of me. I feel I can not continue to let my ruthless family members get away with smearing me, engaging me in tax fraud by having to file taxes with them, and other problems due to too many shared financial and legal  responsibilities. My biggest aha moments which come frequently are that I actually feel good about standing up for myself despite the financial costs, and feel more empowered every day. So many people are stepping up to help me. There are so many fine people out there who I never paid much attention to and instead choose to engage with people who turned out to be just as dysfunctional as my family members. I came to a point when I realized that giving in to my family and allowing them to abuse me, just led to more abuse and worse abuse than before. I feel so strong and am being proactive for the first time in my life about really standing up for myself. Deciding I am worth it, means attracting people that find me worthy and being quickly found to be uninteresting by the kinds of people who in the past would have found me a convenient target to dump all their toxic shame on.
Methuen and others who post here:
I hope standing up to the people who mistreat you, does have some bright spots, and you do feel more empowered and sure of yourself as time goes on. It certainly is frustrating to have family members you cannot ever trust to consider your feelings and never know when you will be the target of their toxic shame. It is particularly painful and destructive when the person who treats you so badly is your own mother.

[Notwendy]

Hi Zachira-
I am also wary of anyone who is seemingly "too nice" to me. I think, for any relationship- romantic or not- taking time, going slow, is a cautious approach.

I understand the emotional value of the cottage to you, and it's your choice. For me, the best way to have boundaries with my BPD mother was to not get involved with anything material. I was attached to some of my father's possessions as they had emotional value to me but my BPD mother controlled them. I did attain some of them eventually, but now, don't wish to have anything she has.

So long as there are ties between you and your sister, the potential for conflict is there. My guess is that the lawyers are mainly focused on property transfer, and don't want to get into family conflicts. Once they are aware of conflict, they probably want to settle the situation. Also legal fees are costly. Sometimes the cost of a dispute might be higher than the value of the item the dispute is over.

It's up to you, but once you have disentangled yourself from the financial ties to your family members, you are free of them. I agree with avoiding anything illegal, and refusing to be involved with them, that is worth the legal fees- you don't want to be liable for their actions. However, for material transactions, I might also be considering the benefit of being free from negotiations and selling.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I wish I could disentangle the property issues from my sister's determination to file taxes that are just plain illegal and would result in large fines from the IRS if discovered. Part of her insistence in buying the property is to have full control of filing the taxes, which means there will be tax fraud so she can get big deductions on her taxes. So far, I have been able to prevent the fraud every year when she gives the tax accountant false inflated made up figures.

[Notwendy]

If she's the one signing her tax forms- isn't the fraud on her? Maybe I am missing something but if she pays you a sum for the house- you file the tax on what she pays you. What she does is on her. It may not be that simple but if you can get it to that, even with taking a lower cost for the house, it might save you a lot of stress and legal fees.

When someone sells a house, the seller isn't liable for the buyer's tax filing. I wonder if there's a way to get a simple transaction like that. Of course it may be less than you want, but if you can come to some agreement, the benefit of being untangled may be worth it.

It seems that dealing with a pwBPD can involve some kind of material loss to disconnect. For me, it may be some material possessions of my father's- which by now may be gone already. But negotiating with my mother also has an emotional cost and she's in control as it is. It also has meant disconnecting from some people. But I gain freedom from the disconnect.

[zachira]

No, the problem is we are both equally liable for the tax fraud because the way the property is legally structured. Also, there are other properties that are not real valuable and need to be sold to end the ongoing nightmare of my sister filing taxes that are fraudulent. This is a nightmare that seems to have no end. I sometimes wish my sister would just drop dead. I have always loved her and she has always hated me, and nothing will change that.

[Notwendy]

I wonder if there's a way to restructure it. Sorry but I don't have experience with inheritances.

[zachira]

No, there is no way to restructure it for now, and this has nothing to do with the inheritance. If I buy the property, I get control over the taxes.

[Methuen]

Fraud?  Holy.  There has to be an answer to disentangle yourself from the property.  Maybe  sell your share, even if its at a loss?  It seems that staying involved in a relationship involving fraud would bring on a whole new and potentially bigger set of problems than you already have.  Is visiting the cottage worth this emotional and legal strain?

I have no experience with inheritance or shared property ownership, so I have no other ideas to offer.

It sure sounds toxic on a lot of levels.

[zachira]

Whether I buy or sell the property, the ability of my sister to commit tax fraud remains unchecked because of the kind of legal entity it is.