My first attempt at SET (support, empathy, truth) went so well

[thankful person]

So, for the past few years, wife has been having lots of difficulty getting comfortable in the bed and on the sofa. She used to screech her head off if I changed the bed and moved the pillows around. (I actually put them exactly back but I now realise that changing pillow cases fluffs up pillows even if you don’t intend it.) during pregnancy she had about 12 pillows on the bed. So I used to Jade and jade and make things worse. And she would shoot louder and louder. Btw she does not like changing the bed herself, she finds it difficult.
So, today I went to change the bed. She now only has about four pillows on the bed. So I said, what do you want me doing with the pillows? And she said, just whatever, I’ll sort them out later. I noticed a couple of other pillows not on the bed, thought, I’ll change them too.. and put them on the bed..  BIG mistake.
She goes into the room, shouts, why are all these pillows on the bed? I’m never going to get comfortable now! I’ll never know which is which! I’m thinking, oh God  I get in trouble if I answer or make a sympathetic noise, and I get in trouble if I stay silent. I offered to help. Wrong choice. What next?
SET: support, empathy, truth.. ok let’s give it a go:
Me: (S) I’m sorry, I should have thought.. it must be so frustrating for you when I don’t do things the way you want me to.
Her: (calming down already) well sometimes it takes me an hour to get comfortable.
Me: (E) I do understand, as you know I’ve had my own issues with trying to get comfortable in bed with my shoulder injuries.
Her: I just don’t know why you wanted to put so many pillows on the bed.
Me: (T): I wanted to make it look nice.
Her: but our buyer isn’t coming until tomorrow.
Me (T) I wanted to make it look nice for you.
The results of this were astounding. She hardly said anything else about it. I waited as she sorted out her pillows. I waited after she went to bed. No shouting. The children didn’t even notice this went down and we both went to bed on good terms.
Thank you so much. This website is a lifeline for me and many others. I am so determined to become better at communicating with and supporting her but also asserting my own rights.
Please let me know how I did. Also I think set will be harder with something like taking a selfie with my children, she’ll be like, why are you taking pictures without me? There are so many pictures of you with them (not true). Why do we never have pictures of just us anymore? (I do suggest it but it’s usually a no from her). So I don’t know how I can use it when I’m actually not at fault eg. Took a photo of our children out of me with them.. please advise me on this.. thanks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

I am very glad to hear you were brave enough to try and respond in a different way.   This really is trial and error,   some days will be better than others.    I remember some of my best crafted responses falling flat and some of my more off the cuff, shooting from the hip ones were well received.

So I said, what do you want me doing with the pillows? And she said, just whatever, I’ll sort them out later. I noticed a couple of other pillows not on the bed, thought, I’ll change them too.. and put them on the bed..  BIG mistake.
She goes into the room, shouts, why are all these pillows on the bed? I’m never going to get comfortable now! I’ll never know which is which!

lets dig into this.   this is a good example.     it helps to hear specifics.   

so first - you know this wasn't a big mistake right?    it really wasn't a mistake at all.     you asked - vaguely.    she responded - vaguely.   there were lots of choices here.   she could have said "I really want those four on the bed".   You could have asked "what about these pillows that are on the floor?"   she could have said "I'll come help you."   you could have asked "will you come help with the pillows?"

both of you appear to be trying to read the others mind.      and I hope its okay to be frank.    why are you taking care of her bed?    did she ask you too?   if it is so important to her and she has trouble sleeping, why are you involved?  why is she shouting?    she has the option of responding in a more respectful tone right?

in the link about ending conflict it talks a lot about the conflict that comes from JADE.    and that is very accurate.   JADE - does generate a cycle of conflict.     a little bit harder to see is how appeasement and boundary busting also generates conflict.     this is tricky.     and sometimes twisty to wrap our brains around.

being responsible for some one else's emotions, or behavior generates conflict for two reasons.     first you invalidate the pwBPD - in this case your wife.     and second you validate or reinforce things you don't want.    I am going to keep using the example of the bed since its fresh.   she keeps the bed in a very very particular fashion.    we can debate whether its a good idea to keep 4 pillows on the bed.   we can debate if its reasonable to be this fixated on a bed.    but we can probably agree she has very strongly held feelings and wants about the bed.   you go to change the bed.     conflict is guaranteed to happen.  why?  she comes in and finds the wrong pillows.   it just as easily could have been the wrong sheets or whatever.    She shouts.   She feels that her need for a ~perfect~ bed, just what she wants - and exactly how she wants it has been ignored.    this isn't about the bed and sheets - it reflects the unhealthy dynamic of when you take on too much responsibility for her happiness, comfort, wants and desires and she berates you for not doing it perfectly.

still with me?   lets look at how this played out.

I’m thinking, oh God  I get in trouble if I answer or make a sympathetic noise, and I get in trouble if I stay silent. I offered to help. Wrong choice. What next?

I don't happen to think offering to help was a bad choice.   I would have probably offered to help her fix it the way she wanted.     it was a reasonable thing to do.   and if she had continued to shout or use an inappropriate tone I would have removed myself from the room saying something like 'I'll be back to help when we can talk calmly'.      something along those lines.

SET: support, empathy, truth.. ok let’s give it a go:
Me: (S) I’m sorry, I should have thought.. it must be so frustrating for you when I don’t do things aren't the way you want me to.

so Support.    what are you supporting here?    do you really want to support the idea that you should do things exactly the way she wants?   is that fair?   is that reasonable?   is this you crossing into her personal autonomy boundaries and becoming responsible for managing her emotions and desires?     

I tweaked your response just a little.    First I took out the I's and the You's to make this a less emotionally fraught exchange.      Second I am attempting to hand back to your wife the responsibility for fixing her own problems.     when our pwBPD have an issue - whatever issue, bed, pictures, visits and we rush to fix it,.. when we hurry to make them feel better - the unintended consequence is that  we undermine them.    the subtle message we convey is -  you can't take of this, I can take care of it better.   and trust me.   that never ever ever works.  it just makes things worse.

Her: (calming down already) well sometimes it takes me an hour to get comfortable.
Me: (E) I do understand, as you know I’ve had my own issues with trying to get comfortable in bed with my shoulder injuries.

this is very good.    very good.       it puts you and her on equal footing.    it creates a connection where you are both the same in the power struggle.   

Her: I just don’t know why you wanted to put so many pillows on the bed.
Me: (T): I wanted to make it look nice.
Her: but our buyer isn’t coming until tomorrow.
Me (T) I wanted to make it look nice for you.
The results of this were astounding. She hardly said anything else about it. I waited as she sorted out her pillows. I waited after she went to bed. No shouting.

to my eyes this is the important part of the exchange.   she got responsibility back for her bed and her pillows and made choices that suited her and the issue was over.    it didn't require fixing on your part.    most of us arrive here over functioning in our relationships, in a desperate attempt to 'make peace'  or make ourselves understood.

I am so determined to become better at communicating with and supporting her but also asserting my own rights.

Supporting her doesn't mean fixing things so she never gets upset.    supporting her can mean learning that when the inevitable upset occurs there are ways to navigate the intense emotions.

this is from the link to ending conflict:

When we are in the middle of enduring a verbal attack from someone else; our own reaction feels impulsive; like an unpredictable and overbearing urge. However; realistically; a lot of these situations are quite predictable.

Identify the triggers that cause you to back down and attempt to placate her.    really identify how the urge to avoid her strong emotional response is destructive to the relationship you want to have.

Also I think set will be harder with something like taking a selfie with my children, she’ll be like, why are you taking pictures without me? There are so many pictures of you with them (not true). Why do we never have pictures of just us anymore? (I do suggest it but it’s usually a no from her). So I don’t know how I can use it when I’m actually not at fault eg. Took a photo of our children out of me with them.. please advise me on this.. thanks

SET responses or comments do not have to be for when you are at fault or think you are.    they work in all sorts of situations:

Support:    For a while we have had this understanding about pictures of the children.
Empathy:    I get that pictures are important to you.
Truth:   Still, this isn't working for me any longer,   can we talk about changing things so I can ______________fill in the blank__________   be more comfortable around pictures,  have a fresh picture regularly...

how would you say that in your own words?

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

BP, that’s awesome that you are trying new strategies!   

[thankful person]

Thank you ducks, I have so much to learn. Wife was having an issue with getting comfortable on the sofa earlier and I really couldn’t think of what to say. I tried suggesting using different cushions, different positions, different seats in the house… she’s very stressed because she needs to be comfy to feed the baby. She was literally in tears. There’s nothing I can say. I’m happy to buy a new sofa even though I’m still paying off the one we have. I don’t think that would solve it. She was like it before she knew me apparently. She shouts at me to get out sometimes with the baby sometimes without.. I stand waiting, not too close not to far. With the first child sometimes is get in trouble for not getting her there quick enough. I know I shouldn’t apologise so much and I know it doesn’t help trying to make her life perfect for her. But I really should have known better about the bed! And in that instance was glad to avoid the shouting. Anyway, she did somehow get comfortable on the sofa in the end.

[babyducks]

Broken Person -

what do you do for fun?     what do you do when you want to de-stress?     what hobbies do you do?   or maybe used to enjoy?    what do you do for exercise?     how do you take care of yourself when you need a break?

'ducks

[thankful person]

Hi ducks and thank you for your concern. It probably won’t surprise you to know that I really don’t do any of these things anymore, mostly for several years..
These are the things I have given up for her: playing the piano and writing songs, which has been a lifeline and source of joy all my life… until I met her. I wrote her several songs when we met, even wrote a song for her during her first pregnancy, to say thank you for what she was going through. She loved the lyrics but then when I wrote the music she didn’t like that I put a photo of a small part of the sheet music on Facebook because all my musician friends would know the song before her. She has never let me play or sing the song for her and told me to throw it away. The latest song I wrote about her is called “broken in love”. I didn’t tell her about that one. I want to write songs for and about our children. But she wants to do everything “together”. We don’t have time, she doesn’t have patience. She’s doesn’t like me “taking over”. She is jealous because I can play the piano. But I teach the most difficult children and yet she is the most unteachable student I’ve ever had.
Seeing friends and even staying in touch with friends
Writing and writing letters
Crafts
Running and swimming
Taking pride in my appearance, clothes, nails, hair, even only showering once a week (she thinks I’m lucky as hers are less often) and never having baths anymore
Listening to music. I bought us both Amazon echo autos for our cars last summer… as in 2020. And finally last week, I have installed them. This will seriously improve my quality of life. I love my music but gave up all my cds early in our relationship.
Reading
Watching my choice of tv, not that I get much chance on my own
Hardly ever ringing my own mother who is very down and my father who also attempted suicide a couple of years ago and is very ill.
There are probably more things. I can’t even remember who I used to be. I used to enjoy my time working, with my students more. Now it’s online mostly it means I’m at home. And she has actually said she doesn’t like it when I talk to them about things other than teaching.
I would love to FaceTime my mum and dad with the older child.
;(
Even taking pride is the housework… I am accused of “taking over” or wanting to get away from her.
She doesn’t like new things, and the more I mention something the less likely it will ever happen. Two examples, me wife and d1 all made a handprint painting together months ago. D0 was supposed to do a hand print on it. Still hasn’t happened. If I mention it it’ll be another few weeks. Another example: our dog jumped the fence and went missing for a whole night a few weeks ago. We bought him a tracking advice which cost the earth. I charged it up. But it’s not on the freakin’ dog! I truly despair sometimes.
How are you doing these days? I hope you are happy and having a good life. It’s so kind of you to come here to help people. I do want things to improve but I just don’t know how. I’m under no illusions about things ever being perfect don’t worry. I’d just love more days without any shouting especially because of the children getting upset.

[babyducks]

Taking pride in my appearance, clothes, nails, hair, even only showering once a week (she thinks I’m lucky as hers are less often) and never having baths anymore

I am having trouble understanding this.     what actually stops you from taking care of yourself the way you want too?     

when is the last time you went running or swimming?    what keeps you from going today?   or tomorrow?

[thankful person]

So there are different reasons for all of it but it generally boils down to her jealousy of me one way or another. These are some of the things she has said to me:
“How is it fair that you get to have a shower everyday and I hardly ever do? It only makes me feel bad about myself!” This was during lockdown 1. My showers were in the morning when she was choosing to have a lay in with the baby.
“How do you think it makes me feel to see you nails? My nails are horrible and if yours look nice it only makes me feel bad about myself.” This was about a week after we properly got together. I used to always do my nails especially as I am a piano teacher. Since then I only do it when she does (once or twice a year). She even brought me a gel nail kit for Christmas but was this permission? No. The one time I did it on my own I was made to feel guilty “It was supposed to be something we do together.”
“I don’t want you going running. You used to go running with your ex. How do I know you’re not thinking about him all the time?” “Because I chose you and I’m with you and I love you.” “Well it doesn’t feel like it.”
We have had a pool for five years but about to swell up and move away. “I don’t want you going swimming on your own it should be something we do together..” honestly that is near impossible with the clingy baby who won’t be put down..

[kells76]

Has not doing what you wanted, because of her jealousy, made her less jealous?

[babyducks]

sorry for the late reply to this...   I wanted to come back to it as I think there is some important stuff here.

So there are different reasons for all of it but it generally boils down to her jealousy of me one way or another. These are some of the things she has said to me:
“How is it fair that you get to have a shower everyday and I hardly ever do? It only makes me feel bad about myself!” This was during lockdown 1. My showers were in the morning when she was choosing to have a lay in with the baby.

when you look at this - how does it strike you?    how does it sound to you?    Is this likely?    Is it reasonable?    Is it even accurate?   Is this a balanced approach ? Are you responsible for making her feel good about herself?    Should you be responsible for how she feels?    She makes a decision to have a lay in ...   and the trade off is she doesn't shower.     The same with the nails.     Is it right that she is degrading you to feel better about herself?  

and of course the really big question, how do you not get sucked into fixing her emotions by changing what you do.

the quick answer is to hand responsibility for her back to her.   in a kind and gentle way of course but back to her to take care of her.

“How is it fair that you get to have a shower everyday and I hardly ever do? It only makes me feel bad about myself!”

Hmmmm Wife's Name,    it sounds like you want to make some changes in your morning routine,  would you like some help with that?

“How do you think it makes me feel to see you nails? My nails are horrible and if yours look nice it only makes me feel bad about myself.”

Yep it takes a lot of time to properly care for my nails.   Still I am glad I do it.   Were you thinking about starting?

“It was supposed to be something we do together.”

Some days I am sure we will, today it just didn't happen to work out that way.    

“I don’t want you going running. You used to go running with your ex. How do I know you’re not thinking about him all the time?” “Because I chose you and I’m with you and I love you.” “Well it doesn’t feel like it.”

SET:   Support:  I think I understand what you are telling me here.   Empathy:  I sense this isn't comfortable for you YET  Truth: but when I run I am actually not thinking about anything - that's why I like it.

“I don’t want you going swimming on your own it should be something we do together..”

We can make a point of going swimming together next tuesday (or whenever)  still right now I need more exercise so I will be going on Fridays also.

[thankful person]

Thanks for your thoughts ducks, I certainly will use some of these ideas with the general theme of taking the power back and behaving more like a normal person might but responding as expertly as I can. I loved your comment about not thinking about anything when I’m running! LOL I ran a marathon the year I left my ex for her. It was the only thing that kept me sane. Any suggestions for what to say when she discovers I messaged my mum a whole compilation video of photos from last year? Oh and just to be rebellious I didn’t even send it to her mum either. Or her.

[kells76]

Any suggestions for what to say when she discovers I messaged my mum a whole compilation video of photos from last year?

One idea/vibe is:

"Aren't our kids just too beautiful to hide? Can't wait to hear what your mom says when you send her more pics. I'll go start some laundry to help you out."

This (a) doesn't give her ammo from you "hiding" anything, (b) puts responsibility for her communication with her mom back in her lap, and (c) lets you exit the conversation.

[thankful person]

Thanks Kells,
I will certainly use some of your words.
If she does find out she will say that we had an agreement to always send pictures to both our mums (even though I happen to know she hasn’t always stuck to the agreement). And I never agreed to it really. It is never acceptable to her for me to walk away from conflict for any reason. And I’m not even allowed to start doing laundry I get accused of taking over with the housework!

[babyducks]

Broken person,

hhhhmmm.   When I read some of your messages I find myself feeling disturbed by what you report.    It strikes me that this is a deeply unhealthy relationship with too much power and control on one side of the relationship.    I also notice that much of what you report is about her... what she thinks... what she allows... what she does... what she doesn't do.

Do you think that you could switch the focus off her for a while and onto you... what you want... what you are willing to compromise on... what your role is in this ?

If she does find out she will say that we had an agreement to always send pictures to both our mums (even though I happen to know she hasn’t always stuck to the agreement). And I never agreed to it really.

so what are you saying here?    there is a double standard?    are you okay with the double standard?    it sounds like not because you 'never really agreed to it'.   what do you think you should do when she says 'we had an agreement'.   what do you think your response should be?   how do you think you should react?

It is never acceptable to her for me to walk away from conflict for any reason.

And I’m not even allowed to start doing laundry I get accused of taking over with the housework!

BP -  quite honestly, from my perspective, in my honest most compassionate opinion - this is unfair, unjust and not sustainable.   I understand you want to stay in this relationship but I am not convinced that is possible on the trajectory you are on.  

When she accuses you of taking over the housework,  what do you do?   what do you say?   how do you respond?

What do you think your responsibility is for making this relationship work?

[thankful person]

Hi ducks, thank you for your concern. Surely if I handle things well then we will be ok?
I know that things are wrong here and I’m determined to put things right. I have been talking and sending photos of the children, having showers.. it hasn’t been challenged… yet. I want my wife to realise that she’s no longer just telling me what to do. I know we have a long way to go. It’s like, she finally asked me to vacuum the front room a few weeks ago. And I said ok can i do kitchen too? She said ok. I then said, and the bathroom? And then it was NO it was just the front room, stop taking over. And I didn’t get to do it until the buyer was coming round. I want to be able to do housework when I want to. I don’t mind that she doesn’t do it. Honestly. She’s busy with the kids and also not very good at it I’m a part time professional cleaner. I just want your guidance on how to handle things. And you’ve been amazing. And if one day I have to move to the break up forum.. then I will. But I want to be here for my kids. And I don’t want to take them away from her. And despite everything. I love her so much.
I know that she can’t and won’t change. I know that it is my responsibility to be the emotional leader as someone here once put it to me. I am so glad I found the forum, it really helps put  things in perspective. It started with an anonymous Facebook post putting it to people that my mum and wife had fallen out over lack of baby photos, visits etc. They overwhelmingly told me I was in an abusive relationship. And I get it. It was then on Quora that I learnt of “stop walking on eggshells” which I read secretly online and it led me here. If she wants and needs me I will stay with her. If not then I’ll be ok. I’m actually pretty tough after everything I’ve been through.

[babyducks]

It’s like, she finally asked me to vacuum the front room a few weeks ago. And I said ok can i do kitchen too? She said ok. I then said, and the bathroom? And then it was NO it was just the front room, stop taking over. And I didn’t get to do it until the buyer was coming round. I want to be able to do housework when I want to.

how about we look at this example, and personal boundaries.    just so we are on the same page about boundaries.    boundaries establish one’s identity and are a crucial aspect of mental health and well-being.  A boundary is a limit or space between you and the other person; a clear place where you begin and the other person ends . . .  healthy boundaries can help people define their individuality and can help people indicate what they will and will not hold themselves responsible for.

“When one person is in control of another, love cannot grow deeply and fully, as there is no freedom” (Cloud & Townsend, 2002).

I can understand asking about the vacuuming when there are two young children in the house.    what confuses me is why ask room by room?   why do you need permission to vacuum the bathroom separately from the kitchen and why is she in control of this?

'I am going to start to vacuum now, unless you have other plans?'   keep things simple.    start with what you are willing (and not willing to do).   state it clearly.   simply.   and understand there will be consequences for what ever the decision is.    let her absorb the consequences, and yes that might generate some conflict since you have been over functioning in protecting her.

  And then it was NO it was just the front room, stop taking over. 

what did you say when she said NO?    I understand this to be your house too, correct?     you are a joint owner?  on the mortgage, rental agreement?   

here is a suggestion:
"okay if you want to take care of it, I will leave it for you.   I hope you get to it before the buyer comes."

there should be boundaries here about when you vacuum, when it is convenient for you.  there should be boundaries here about how you let yourself get treated, and spoken too.    and there should be boundaries around who has control of the relationship.

  And then it was NO it was just the front room, stop taking over.

this is projection.    she is projecting her behavior onto you.  from what you report she has to be in complete control of everything all the time.    I can't help wondering if she doesn't want a hostage more than a lover.     the answer to this is for you to have and hold healthy boundaries.    there are a lot of resources on how to set boundaries and how to communicate boundaries.    one of the simplest boundaries is the word No.   "It’s like, she finally asked me to vacuum the front room a few weeks ago."     "Now isn't a good time for me,  I will do it tomorrow"

 Healthy Personal Boundaries = Taking responsibility for your own actions and emotions, while NOT taking responsibility for the actions or emotions of others.

They overwhelmingly told me I was in an abusive relationship. And I get it.

this is confusing.   you 'get' that this relationship is abusive but you are agreeing to move farther away from your home and support, and work environment in a financial situation that is less than ideal?     how is this taking care of Broken Person?    how is this what is best for Broken Person and her family?

[thankful person]

Hi ducks and thanks for your thoughts again. The house move will be a new start for both of us and I also do intend to make changes with the support of the forum here. Like I’m gonna wear that top mum bought me. As you know I have been working on having more showers and taking pictures of the children and sending them to my mum. I know these are small things but they do feel like victories. There will be no turning back. Please help me if you can. I appreciate your advice. I know it’s probably what would be common sense responses to most people, but then it’s how you respond after pwbpd says, “NO I won’t allow it.” My marriage vows are precious to me and I know my wife is just a scared little girl really, I read that it’s like they get stuck and can never reach emotional maturity. I’m so sad for what she’s been through. I want to help her, even though she doesn’t want or feel she needs help.

[babyducks]

I'd like to talk about boundaries some more.     to understand more about personal boundaries in relationships and why they are important.  

I found someone who explains it much better than I do so I am going to borrow some words from the author Mark Manson.    He is worth reading at his website:
https://markmanson.net/

Manson said this about boundaries:

People with poor boundaries typically come in two flavors: those who take too much responsibility for the emotions/actions of others and those who expect others to take too much responsibility for their own emotions/actions.

People lack boundaries because they have a high level of neediness (or in psych terms, codependence). People who are needy or codependent have a desperate need for love and affection from others. To receive this love and affection, they sacrifice their identity and remove their boundaries.

People who blame others for their own emotions and actions do so because they believe that if they put the responsibility on those around them, they’ll receive the love they’ve always wanted and needed. If they constantly paint themselves as a victim, eventually someone will come to save them.

People who take the blame for other people’s emotions and actions are always looking to save someone. They believe that if they can “fix” their partner, then they will receive the love and appreciation they’ve always wanted.

Predictably, these two types of people are drawn strongly to one another. Their pathologies match one another perfectly

Ironically, they both fail completely in meeting the other’s needs. In fact, they both only serve to perpetuate the neediness and low self-esteem that is keeping them from getting their emotional needs met. The victim creates more and more problems to solve and the saver solves and solves, but the love and appreciation they’ve always needed are never actually transmitted to one another.

well that's a lot to digest I know.   but I think it is important.    lets take some time with this.    

what I seem to be seeing is that your wife creates this problem for you to solve.    She only feels 'safe' or 'respected' or in a relationship with you when she is totally in control and you are completely following her instructions.    It seems that she  creates problems not because there are real problems, but because she believes it will cause her to feel loved.     Does it really matter when you vacuum the house?   Is it really important what shirt you wear?   Are you going to be thinking of your Ex while out jogging?  Of course not.    If you dig underneath all that the real problem is 'you must do it exactly the way I want and that proves you love me and only me'.    

Now the same is true of the saver or the fixer.   and trust me I know this because I am a saver and a fixer.   The saver doesn’t save the victim because they actually care about the problem, but because they believe if they fix the problem they will feel loved.   or because they believe if they fix the problem they will have self esteem.    

Victims and savers both get kind of an emotional high off one another. It’s like an addiction.

For us, the savers and fixers, the hardest thing to do in the world is to stop fixing other people’s problems and trying to force them to be happy and satisfied. For us, we've mostly spent most of our lives only feeling valued and loved when  fixing a problem or providing a use to someone, so letting go of this can be hard.

I am probably always going to be a saver/fixer/caretaker of some kind.   its hard wired into my DNA.    The thing to work on is drawing boundaries around it.   To know when I have had enough, done enough, bent enough to say this is for babyducks, its time to take care of me.   its time to stop taking care of everyone else in the universe and do something for myself.    

and yes sometimes that means pushing back.    

 I know it’s probably what would be common sense responses to most people, but then it’s how you respond after pwbpd says, “NO I won’t allow it.”

tone of voice matters in any reply you make,  demeanor matters.   you want to be as calm and as centered and in control as you can be and send the message back of :

I love you, but you have to let me do things my own way. This is not healthy, you taking control of my life decisions.

or

If you really care about me, then you need to stop trying to control my life and let me live it.

if you had to put that in your own words how would you say it?

[thankful person]

Thanks for sharing all that, I will certainly read Mark Manson. Truth is, I was looking for someone to save. As a suicidal 16 year old I wrote my first book to help others. Here is a quote from my book:
“If anyone wants what I so desperately need: love, patience, respect.. and so much fkn attention… I just want to be able to give that to someone else. At least then there would be some small point to the fact that I exist at all.”
I always thought I would become an adult and spend my life replying to my readers’ letters etc. Of course by the time I was an adult we had the Internet. A combination of events led me to write the third book in my trilogy, one of them being that a suicidal teenager I was teaching piano to was self harming and I wanted to help her. I then started seeking out suicidal teens online, partly to promote my book but also I wanted to help them. And that was how I found my wife. She is fifteen years younger than me. Finally someone was reciprocating and needing me. I hadn’t realised I would have to give up my whole life and a long term stable relationship (not that I was happy…) were I ever to actually find this person. That was what hurt my ex the most: “I’ve been looking for her all my life…” But it was true. I threw myself at everyone (as a “friend”) and no one wanted me as much as her. The saddest thing was when I said to my ex, “I’ve always just wanted a friend..” and he said, “but you’ve got a friend..” and I said, “oh you mean friend x.. she’s not a good friend she never chooses to text me..” etc and he said, “no. I meant me.” We were together for fifteen years. I didn’t even see him as a friend. I guess it doesn’t help either… that I will never get over what I did to him.
Going back to the control thing.. your last two lines sounded exactly like what I do say sometimes to her. I will study them though to make sure I’m not saying it wrong. And pick my battles carefully. I don’t need all this at once I’m already feeling better about the couple of changes I’m pushing for. A big goal is for me to be able to teach the children to play the piano, if they want to learn. We still have another couple of years until I would predict the older one may start asking. It has been told to me, “there’s no way you’re teaching them to play the piano. I want to be able to teach them too.” My sil asked if I would teach wife’s niece a while back and we were all told NO. Wife wants to learn but doesn’t have the patience for it, or the time. When do I mention this to her. Do I wait until something actually happens like the little one asking me about it? Or should I start laying foundations for this sooner? It saddens me to imagine a massive row erupting in front of child and she’d learn to be too scared to mention it again.
Thank you so much. You are a wonderful person to give your time like this to help others. I hope you do take care of yourself too.

[babyducks]

Going back to the control thing.. your last two lines sounded exactly like what I do say sometimes to her. I will study them though to make sure I’m not saying it wrong. And pick my battles carefully.

can you explain this some more please?    when you say to your wife - I need to live my own life - or you have to let me do things my way - or I need to make choices that reflect me - what does she reply?    how does this conversation go?    what is your expectation for her and how this will turn out?   more detail could be helpful here.

... I’m glad you have a therapist. I’m not allowed to do this because my wife doesn’t want to be talked about and also I think she wouldn’t want someone confirming to me that her behaviour is unacceptable and that I shouldn’t stand for it.

I feel it would be remiss to let this pass with out a small comment.    Broken do you understand this is a fallacy?    wouldn't it be accurate to say You have decided to not pursue therapy right now because you are afraid of your  wife's response?   and at some level you do understand that your wife's behavior is unacceptable, isn't that why you are here?

while she has expressed strong opinions about therapy you have by your actions agreed to it.    

[thankful person]

Hi ducks, I will let you know next time I attempt to do something my wife wouldn’t want me to do, what she actually says and what happens. Yes you are right. She has said she doesn’t want me to have therapy, and at the moment I feel our marriage is not ready for it because of how she would react. I have said before that she said our relationship was over for months when I stood up to her about sending baby pics to mum. I know she shouldn’t have this control, but she does (yes I am responsible) and I don’t want to go through it quite like that again.