Problem mother

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have written and rewritten this, as it goes around in circles, but here we go again with much less detail, I cut contact with my mother, due to many reasons, and she displays so much BPD traits I can't believe I have not heard of this before, she was so neglectful, unstable, and emotionally abusive that it ruined our childhood, and she would have continued this even to this day given the chance.
Question is, when a parent physically and emotionally abandons you, and mentally abuses not just you but your younger sibling, whom you care about so much, what right does that parent then have to demand your care and attention, I have no feelings for her, except my own guilt which comes from my Christian upbringing, and the expectation that we should honour our parents, but this can not be right. What about their obligation to care and love and honour us? I want to lose this guilt and the expectation to care for an old parent who does not deserve it.

[Marius1970]

I have written and rewritten this, as it goes around in circles, but here we go again with much less detail, I cut contact with my mother, due to many reasons, and she displays so much BPD traits I can't believe I have not heard of this before, she was so neglectful, unstable, and emotionally abusive that it ruined our childhood, and she would have continued this even to this day given the chance.
Question is, when a parent physically and emotionally abandons you, and mentally abuses not just you but your younger sibling, whom you care about so much, what right does that parent then have to demand your care and attention, I have no feelings for her, except my own guilt which comes from my Christian upbringing, and the expectation that we should honour our parents, but this can not be right. What about their obligation to care and love and honour us? I want to lose this guilt and the expectation to care for an old parent who does not deserve it.

[Woolspinner2000]

First Marius1970, I just want to say, "Welcome!" and thank you for having the courage to make your first post. 

My mom was an uBPD. I understand so much of what you shared. It's a big question to ask about 'honoring our parents' and the confusion and pain that accompanies even the possible thought of that. We will help walk with you through that as we share our stories and ask you some deeper questions. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to your question. It will be unique to each one of us based on what we have gone through and what steps we need to take to maintain personal health (mentally, physically, emotionally).

Have you read the third post on our board, Survivor to Thriver program? When you have time, let me know what step you think you may be on. Do you think you are in the discovery stages?

Here is a link that may provide some insight for you as to why you are feeling the conflict you are:
 https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

Looking forward to hearing more from you. This is a safe place where you will find others who also understand what you're going through.

 
Wools

[Marius1970]

Hi Woolspinner, thank you for your response, reading the stages, I would say stages 4-5, although I do not want a resolution with her.
Very recently I have realised that we can not have any type of relationship, which makes me feel sad and bad, my spouse is very supportive but as she has normal parents, I don't think she understands fully my thoughts and feelings, I really am feeling sick inside and stressed to distraction, I should not have let my belief that after these years of NC and my guilt of her being old, she could have changed, this is the third time I have cut contact and when contact is resumed it is like the restart of a VHS tape from the stopped position, as if the no contact period never happened, there is never any responsibility taken for her behaviour and never any apology, only her version of events that are all lies. But this does not stop me asking myself am I right to do this or am I the one being cruel, I even ask myself if I over exaggerated things and whether things were that bad, but they were, it is a horrible situation.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again Marius1970,

There is such a struggle within us, the adult children of a pwBPD. It's a battle as much against ourselves as it is against our parent. As terrible as the conflict was from growing up in our FOO, it's pretty common to internalize that conflict against ourselves too, because we don't know or understand any other way. It's what we learned and how we survived.

Very recently I have realised that we can not have any type of relationship, which makes me feel sad and bad

It's okay to not have a relationship. Many members here will choose LC (low contact), VLC (very low contact) or NC (no contact). It's okay to go NC. I had to be VLC for years and years with my uBPDm because it was the only way I had some semblance of stability. I dreaded calling her because I could hear the ice in her voice that said I had waited to long to call her. Anytime that I could distract her to just talk about herself made it a lot safer for me.

You will get through this. Just take one day at a time. Now I am going to ask you a tough question: How many times a day do you tell yourself you're bad for ending the relationship?

 
Wools

[Turkish]

What care from you does she expect? What is your vision or version of help?

[Marius1970]

Thanks Woolspinner, at the moment I am pretty low and confused, and it plays on my mind all day, I know I need to snap out of it, as it is self defeating, I never had any problem distracting her as she only wanted to talk about herself and her problems, most calls I hardly had chance to say hello or goodbye, as I am either an inconvenience as if I needed anything I shouldn't or a convenience for her as in I can do things for her, I am however not allowed to have problems myself. Thanks for your question Turkish, she would want me running around for her, for trivial things and I live 20 miles away, but she would claim life or death importance, I always helped with lifts to hospital etc even though she is only a mile away from it, but underneath due to the neglectful treatment we got, I always have resented helping, I think she misses this manipulation which she seems to enjoy rather than my help or contact.

[Notwendy]

Marius,
I think your situation is similar to one many of us struggle with, It becomes a struggle between preserving our own well being and our moral code, which includes respect and care for an elderly parent. This leaves me in the situation to choose between not being emotionally abused and manipulated vs my personal expectations of being a decent person.

The 10 Commandments are important laws in many faith traditions. They also have been interpreted in context. The law " do not kill" seems straightforward. But what if someone is trying to kill someone else- can that person defend themselves? I think most people accept that you should not kill, but if someone was trying to kill you, and you kill them in self defense to protect yourself and others, that's a unique circumstance.

"Honor your parent" is not the same as "obey their every wish". This is something I also struggled with as I thought this meant I needed to be completely obedient to my BPD mother's wishes. However, what if a parent's wish requires you to violate another law? What if a parent asks a child to rob a bank, or lie? Are you obligated to obey them?

I think the consensus is no. Now, thankfully my mother has not asked me to do something like rob a bank, but I had to think about enabling. Whenever I enable my mother to be abusive to me, I am enabling her to be a bad person. Obviously, this isn't good for me, but is it good for her? No.

Do I honor her higher self by enabling her? Not really.

I do think we have an obligation to not let our parents starve, or be homeless, or lack physical things if we are able to provide them. However, if your parent isn't in this situation, then this isn't a need. I don't think we can treat them poorly either. However, they may be unhappy with us not serving their needs, but it's also not in their best interests to enable them. Honoring them is not the same as enabling. As to how much contact, I think it depends on the situation, how abusive it is, how much you as an individual can manage it. For some people  it's NC, for others it's LC.

Lastly, are we ever comfortable with our choice? Probably not, because this isn't what we wanted to do, but we are in a situation where we have two difficult choices- preserve our own emotional well being- or put that aside to please our parents. An emotionally healthy parent also cares for their child's well being and so would not put them in a situation where their well being is compromised. Without this, we have to find a boundary. It's not easy, and perhaps we somehow don't always get it right. But staying mindful of our morals is a good thing.  I think it's important to not beat yourself up for the struggle. You are not a bad person. I think most of us are doing the best we can with it and you are too.

[Methuen]

I never had any problem distracting her as she only wanted to talk about herself and her problems, most calls I hardly had chance to say hello or goodbye, as I am either an inconvenience as if I needed anything I shouldn't or a convenience for her as in I can do things for her, I am however not allowed to have problems myself...she would want me running around for her, for trivial things and I live 20 miles away, but she would claim life or death importance, I always helped with lifts to hospital etc even though she is only a mile away from it, but underneath due to the neglectful treatment we got, I always have resented helping, I think she misses this manipulation which she seems to enjoy rather than my help or contact.

I can relate to a lot of this Marius. On this board, we all seem to be in a spectrum between NC and full contact, but the common thread is that we all struggle and no matter which direction of the spectrum we choose to take, it's difficult for all kinds of different reasons. 

I have had the "honour thy mother" line spoken to me by a relative too.  The only people who could actually say that and genuinely buy into it, are people that have never walked our path with a pwBPD.  It bothered me when it was said about 5 years ago, and it still bothers me because it was said by a person whom I respect, and would not expect to say this to me.  They just "say" the biblical thing without ever having suffered what we suffer.  If they had, they wouldn't say it.  It feels judgemental, without considering unknown and unhealthy factors outside ordinary family boundaries, in my opinion.  Sometimes, ignorance is bliss, and so such a thing is easy to say, when one has been taught to say it, and has no reason to question it.

Having said that, I am currently full contact with a very difficult mother.  I do it because I still love her, but probably mostly because of obligation and guilt, and because society expects me to, and her friends only know the "nice" side of her.  I have had to learn to set boundaries, and hold them, to preserve my own well-being.  When she is on an emotional equilibrium, contact is easier.  When she is not, I struggle, and have to make adjustments to my boundaries, to preserve my own well-being.  Right now is not so good.  I can empathize with the internal conflict you are experiencing.  Everything in your opening post on this thread, I could relate to.  It's tough Marius.  Really tough.  I think the line in the sand has to be drawn around our own well-being.   What I have spent the last two years working on is developing new skills for relating to a pwBPD.  It has been really helpful.  But my mom feels so impossible right now, that all those skills I've learned and use, don't feel like enough.  That tells me I need less contact with her, I need to return to letting her sort her own emotions and problems, and I need to focus more on myself.

The goalposts keep changing, but they are in quicksand.

You are not alone.  We get it here.  Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.

[Woolspinner2000]

Thank you Notwendy and Methuen for sharing your excellent posts. 

I think the way you approached the whole idea of "honor your mother and father" was really helpful and inciteful. Good for all of us to read and apply!

Wools

[Marius1970]

Thank you Notwendy and Methuen for the support and great replies, these are very helpful in allowing me to see that I should start to accept that I deserve to be happy without guilt, and that she deserves the results of her actions.
As my sibling was the favourite and I was never in favour, anything I did was out of presumed obligation, and her conditioning over all these years are the reasons I was compliant and was able to be manipulated, my siblings attitude adds to the roots of my troubles, and I need to take this out of the equation.
She also quotes in a different way the honour your mother line, and it is always coupled with comparison to her normal friends, or the few she has left, and their children, she sees what they do and how they interact etc, and voices this every opportunity, again to add shame and guilt on me as she is not getting what she wants.

You are correct in stating that relatives who know nothing of what is going on or what has gone on are not well placed to comment, and it is a shame she has her siblings on her side, getting her sympathy, but to tell them the truth would be cruel on my part, even though I know so many lies have been told about me, I am not that person,

Thanks again, all is really very much appreciated.

[Methuen]

She also quotes in a different way the honour your mother line, and it is always coupled with comparison to her normal friends, or the few she has left, and their children, she sees what they do and how they interact etc, and voices this every opportunity, again to add shame and guilt on me as she is not getting what she wants

It is interesting that your sister quotes this "honour thy mother" line.  I am trying to wrap my head around that (I don't have a sibling).  Why do you think she is telling you that?  What dynamic is underlying that?  Is it because she guilts you to do more of the work for mother, so she can do less?  I am really curious about the dynamic, and why your sister would use that line on you... 

Is there a way you can bounce this ball back into her court? 

[Marius1970]

Hi Methuen, sorry my poor attention to typing a structured sentence, my mother is the person I refer to there making these statements, my sibling is my brother.

The reason I am now the focus of her attention is that my sibling died, quite some time ago, and that is a whole different drama, which was compounded by the things I was told after his death regarding her treatment of him.

I knew my brother did not like her either, but he would never discuss details with me, and in our last get together, was upset talking about when we were often left alone when we were very young, whilst our so called guardian was out all night, drinking and getting merry with her many so called friends.

My brother would visit from over 200 miles away out of what he called duty, but he would spend all day at my house, he did not quote any expectation on my part, and would only stay with her overnight. His attitude of duty has had an effect on my feelings on the situation, which is out of honour for my brother, who I cared for loved and respected immensely, also thinking he can see what I am doing from above and I do not want to let him down, silly I know, and all this despite me having a strong dislike almost a hatred of our mother, knowing the treatment he received was much worse, and I hold this against her more than her treatment of me, ironically.

Having thought about the situation intensively I now realise that no matter what happens, in my mothers eyes I am just a thing to be used, I understand that she has problems, and suffers, and this is part of my dilemma, but I can not allow myself to suffer by her treatment, and by extension my family, who see me down and almost despairing, as this is very distressing for them, and apart from myself, I need to think of them.

As you may tell, I feel much better today, the therapist I saw last year advised to document dreams and use your insight to interpret what your subconscious is telling you, I started this again 3 days ago, and has been a comfort, along with the support here, I dare say I will have dips, but I need to keep in mind the reason I went NC and accept that she is just a black hole.
It is true that it is a day to day situation, but hopefully tomorrow I will still be good.

[Methuen]

First let my express my condolences with the loss of your brother, and all that must have gone with that at the time, and in the aftermath.

I have re-read your fourth paragraph many times.  Marius, is it possible that some of the pressure you are feeling to "honour your mother" could be self-imposed because of your interpretation of things?  I only ask because you say you don't want to "let him down".  That seems like a heavy burden to carry.  And yet, when he came to visit from far away, he spent the day at your house (not with your mom), but stayed for night at your mom's.  You also mention you believe your mom treated him worse than you, and you also have a strong dislike/almost hatred of your mother.

I hope it's ok - but I'm going to challenge your thinking when it comes to the part about "duty".  Here it comes:  Would your brother also want you to honour your own values?  Take care of yourself? Might "duty" also be applied to your own self-care, as well as caring for other people?

When you mention "his attitude of duty has had an effort on my feelings on the situation", could you tell us a little bit more about that?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Marius,

When I read your posts, I see a person who is so weighed down with grief, obligation and anger. It is such a heavy, heavy load to carry, and no wonder you are tired and struggling. I would feel that way too and in fact, the heavy feelings and nightmares are what pushed me to get into T. I am glad you have a T or have had one.

I don't know if you follow any particular religious beliefs or not, but my T shared something that was helpful for me. He mentioned the Bible verses, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

We talked about burdens and what they are: things that make us feel heavy in our spirit, soul and body. They can be placed there by others, or perhaps we place them on ourselves. The verses talk about the light burden that is placed on us, the ease of having someone to bear the load with us. The burdens of heaviness we carry are usually not what God intended because His load is light. That has often been a help for me, to help me discern where the weight is coming from: humans or from God.

The load is meant to be carried by more than one. You are not alone. We will help you carry this load too.

 
Wools

[Marius1970]

Thank you both for your replies, in response to Methuen's question,

I hope it's ok - but I'm going to challenge your thinking when it comes to the part about "duty".  Here it comes:  Would your brother also want you to honour your own values?  Take care of yourself? Might "duty" also be applied to your own self-care, as well as caring for other people?

When you mention "his attitude of duty has had an effort on my feelings on the situation", could you tell us a little bit more about that?

I had never really thought about this before, but yes I would guess that he would prefer me to be happy, and prioritise my duties to my family,

My brother may have had a stronger sense of duty as he was the so called favourite, so endured more intense affects, whilst I was able to escape this, and was generally neglected of attention, except for the Scape goating, we were separated by her manipulation for many years, but eventually away from her we grew very close, and found we were so alike, although he was much kinder and gentler than me, and I admired him for his quiet strength, he always had trouble refusing to help anyone who asked, and I would support him and guide him to being more assertive and confident, but this helped me by being a bit more like him, he never said many things about her so when he did, I always remembered them, and the duty thing I suppose sunk in, and as he was a firm advocate of this, I wanted to emulate this so to not disappoint him, I know this is really stupid, and does not make sense, but I have always tried to be a good person, and to be liked, so to be nothing like her, and I mostly have succeeded, just not with her.

I had quite a lot of therapy sessions, just on these 2 issues, and helped a lot while I had no contact, but it crashed when she managed to contact me and I realised it was just a ruse, and another rerun, and brought to the fore things that I had repressed, as I get older I start to question beliefs in God etc, and even the question of karma, but I feel now confused on these points, as with karma I would be almost be performing selfishly if thinking that helping her etc would benefit me spiritually, there for creating karma.

[Notwendy]

I think the idea of Karma can fit with any spiritual path, after all most religions encourage doing good deeds and not doing bad ones.

I don't think it's wrong to create good Karma.

However, enabling isn't the same as good Karma. One clue to which is which is how much you are acting out of fear and how much resentment you feel when you do something helpful. If it's helping from the heart, with no expectations, then I think it's good Karma.

And do we really know? I don't think anyone knows the grand scheme of things. We are all just doing the best we can with what we are able to do. Still, a good deed is a good deed.

[Methuen]

I had never really thought about this before, but yes I would guess that he would prefer me to be happy, and prioritise my duties to my family,

Okay.  Perhaps now is a good time to give this idea some very serious consideration. 

I get the sense that once you and your brother grew together again, that you may have been supportive role models for each other.  You admired his quiet strength, duty to help others, and kindness.  He benefitted from your guidance to be more assertive, and become more confident.  You admired him a lot, and losing him was a really really big loss.  His sense of "duty" stuck in your memory, so now you want to honour him and all the things you admired about him, by "working" on the things you admired about him to be more like him (such as this "duty to mother").  Am I at all close, or way off base? 

It sounds to me from reading between the lines that your brother had a heart of gold, and despite things he must have suffered with your mom, he probably still tried to be compassionate and kind and helpful at times.  You and your brother had different lived experiences with your mom, and you are also different personalities.  One of you was not better than the other.  People are who they are for a reason.  Also, your memory of conversations you recall with him has led you to interpret his meaning of duty to "be there for mom" despite whatever has happened.

Memories and interpretations can play tricks (eg going back to those conversations the two of you had about duty and what you might have taken away from that versus what his intentions were). 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest his view of duty would not have excluded your duty to care for your own well-being. 

Perhaps the trick is to figure out how to attempt to have contact with your mom, without causing harm to your own emotional well-being? Is this even a possibility?  If you think so, this website can help with that.  There are so many tools we can use to navigate these high conflict relationships.  My mom goes through periods where she is ok, and then something happens and she's not okay, and she tries to dump her emotions and bpd behaviors on me, and I become not okay.  I'm kinda going through that right now.  But if it weren't for the tools on this website, I don't know if I could be the support for her that I am - as an only child with no other family or extended family to share the burden of a very difficult elderly BPD mom.  On the other hand, there are also situations where the only option is to go NC.  And that is ok too.

At any rate, your brother sounds like the kind of person who would want you to be happy, whatever that means for you.  Finding some peace with all of this, and happiness would  be a great way to honour your brother's memory Marius. 

[Marius1970]

Hi Methuen,

thank you for such an insightful and highlighting response, I think you have managed to describe the situation to me, that I have had not so good an attempt of myself, probably because I am too close to the situation.

You are right about the anger, the things she has done, almost gloated about, openly lied about or brushed off, are things no one should have to put up with, especially when she touts to her friends and family how great a parent she has been and is still, yet she will not even visit his grave, or even mention him, if she had spoken of him to me I think I would have vomited.

After my brothers funeral was the second time I cut contact with her, and even after that I thought to be good I should let things go and try to have a relationship with her, even if deep down it didn't sit right with me, as I was lying to myself in thinking that this is what was right, but I still gave her the chance.

But even after all that, she would still do things to antagonise and push me away, and there were 4 events to prompt no contact, but it took the fourth for me to do it.

It makes me feel sick in my stomach to think of having any contact with her, with the anxiety she causes, as she tries to bring about problems for me with all she can, and I accept that my wellbeing and that of my family, is much more important  that hers, so for me I can not have any contact at all.

I now realise that a normal parent raises a child, and this child reciprocates by being there for the parents when they are older, but when a parent does nothing except shirk their parenting responsibilities, these parents don't have a right to this help when they are older, even if they are brazen enough to shamelessly claim it.