Notes from reading "The Borderline Mother"

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi,

I found it very validating to read the "Borderline Mother" book, linked on this site. I haven't really found that my therapist understands BPD relationships and just how damaging they are and this book really explains the 4 relational types that BPD has and their motivations. Although it's designed for a Borderline Mother I also recognized a lot of the behaviours in my ex.

When I tried to think of the first red flag I didn't pay attention to, it was my ex staring at or through me in a really creepy way. This is what the book has to say, "the pupils of the eyes enlarge, giving the individual a shark-like look, and indicating the potential for attack or detachment from reality." This is actually an indication that the pwBPD is on the "borderline" of psychosis and not really present. Reading this makes me wish that I could "out" my ex as a real predator with a mental illness, although that is not really possible as I cannot "prove" such a thing happened.

The book also recommends "the gift of fear" and writes, "we must learn to teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness... people seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning." My ex, who would become excessively controlling and manipulative, seemed like a nice, vulnerable, soft and shy person in the beginning, always giving me compliments and admiration, so that I felt inured to any other gut warnings of fear or unstableness in her. It's also still kind of unimaginable to me that somebody who presnted like that could turn out to be such a monster. I think this is a really important lesson to learn.

This is also then connected to the later stage of borderline rage, which "can be annihilatory in intent and intensity". Adler (1985) explains that this can be "a level of rage so intense that the borderline is momentarily unable to recognize the person who is the target of her anger. The person is no longer recognized as human."
This was validating for me because I felt incredibly dehumanized by the way my ex discarded me. "The Borderline witch annihilates others so that they no longer exist in her mind.". This "Witch", or fourth type of borderline, "represents an ego-state that can be triggered by criticism, betrayal, or abandonment" and can "live inside" the three other types of borderline and only come out against family members or loved ones and never be seen by the outside world. It is the bond of love itself that needs to be destroyed: "the target of the borderline's rage represents some hated aspect of the borderline which she wishes to destroy", and this leads to the smear campaign, which is "calculated and construed to destroy the victim's reputation".

So the bottom line is: they really do try to destroy or annihilate us. This is a staggering insight, especially for me, because even though I somehow knew this was emotionally true, it is also so hard to "prove", to consider that somebody may act out of purely arrested survival instincts. I would also say my ex was predominately the "hermit" type and very clever and high-functioning, so that only people who got really close would ever experience or see the rage and shame bubbling within. The Hermit may "seem strong as she is able to tolerate being alone", but is "driven by fear; without it, she feels numb, dead." When they are angry they confront others with a "wall of cold, stony silence or unbridled wrath".

And this one also helped me with some cognitive dissonance, "The hermit rarely acknowledges mistakes or apologizes for inappropriate behaviour. The survival instinct prevails when the self is endangered... a case of self-defense and she sees herself as innocent of wrong-doing."  This helps me to take a futher small step on the journey of recognizing she will never acknowledge the pain she caused. The hermit is also most unlikely to ever seek help and, if she does, will leave once she feels trust is built or she is exposed ... and this definitely applies to my ex as well. I think it also can explain why my ex, who was a painter, never showed anybody (except, I think, her sister and sometimes of course exhibition viewers) her paintings and destroyed most or many of them: "rejection is devastating becase it represents failure... art is an expression of the hermit's inner experience and rejection can trigger emotional disintegration."     

In conclusion, I think step by step as I self-validate with these sorts of resources I am able to intellectually come to terms with what happened, which also helps to give me a frame to emotionally come to terms with what happened. Overall I think the "bigger journey" is forgiveness and letting go of the past in a healthy way, I'm not there yet and it's not something you can force but I hope at some point to let go of the C (her initial) who forced her way into my head through violence, betrayal, and wounding me, to "overcome" these actions with my own mental stalwartness, and move back to a healthier and compassionate me. But there is no way of rushing that process, which is really a grieving process for the losses of the past.

I'm not sure how this thread can be helpful for others, but I wonder what it is that you "learnt" that has helped you to distance yourself from your ex, from your anger at them or the way they betrayed you, and move back into a "healthier spectrum" of relating to others? That is my goal. Thanks for reading.   

[poppy2]

Hi,

I found it very validating to read the "Borderline Mother" book, linked on this site. I haven't really found that my therapist understands BPD relationships and just how damaging they are and this book really explains the 4 relational types that BPD has and their motivations. Although it's designed for a Borderline Mother I also recognized a lot of the behaviours in my ex.

When I tried to think of the first red flag I didn't pay attention to, it was my ex staring at or through me in a really creepy way. This is what the book has to say, "the pupils of the eyes enlarge, giving the individual a shark-like look, and indicating the potential for attack or detachment from reality." This is actually an indication that the pwBPD is on the "borderline" of psychosis and not really present. Reading this makes me wish that I could "out" my ex as a real predator with a mental illness, although that is not really possible as I cannot "prove" such a thing happened.

The book also recommends "the gift of fear" and writes, "we must learn to teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness... people seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning." My ex, who would become excessively controlling and manipulative, seemed like a nice, vulnerable, soft and shy person in the beginning, always giving me compliments and admiration, so that I felt inured to any other gut warnings of fear or unstableness in her. It's also still kind of unimaginable to me that somebody who presnted like that could turn out to be such a monster. I think this is a really important lesson to learn.

This is also then connected to the later stage of borderline rage, which "can be annihilatory in intent and intensity". Adler (1985) explains that this can be "a level of rage so intense that the borderline is momentarily unable to recognize the person who is the target of her anger. The person is no longer recognized as human."
This was validating for me because I felt incredibly dehumanized by the way my ex discarded me. "The Borderline witch annihilates others so that they no longer exist in her mind.". This "Witch", or fourth type of borderline, "represents an ego-state that can be triggered by criticism, betrayal, or abandonment" and can "live inside" the three other types of borderline and only come out against family members or loved ones and never be seen by the outside world. It is the bond of love itself that needs to be destroyed: "the target of the borderline's rage represents some hated aspect of the borderline which she wishes to destroy", and this leads to the smear campaign, which is "calculated and construed to destroy the victim's reputation".

So the bottom line is: they really do try to destroy or annihilate us. This is a staggering insight, especially for me, because even though I somehow knew this was emotionally true, it is also so hard to "prove", to consider that somebody may act out of purely arrested survival instincts. I would also say my ex was predominately the "hermit" type and very clever and high-functioning, so that only people who got really close would ever experience or see the rage and shame bubbling within. The Hermit may "seem strong as she is able to tolerate being alone", but is "driven by fear; without it, she feels numb, dead." When they are angry they confront others with a "wall of cold, stony silence or unbridled wrath".

And this one also helped me with some cognitive dissonance, "The hermit rarely acknowledges mistakes or apologizes for inappropriate behaviour. The survival instinct prevails when the self is endangered... a case of self-defense and she sees herself as innocent of wrong-doing."  This helps me to take a futher small step on the journey of recognizing she will never acknowledge the pain she caused. The hermit is also most unlikely to ever seek help and, if she does, will leave once she feels trust is built or she is exposed ... and this definitely applies to my ex as well. I think it also can explain why my ex, who was a painter, never showed anybody (except, I think, her sister and sometimes of course exhibition viewers) her paintings and destroyed most or many of them: "rejection is devastating becase it represents failure... art is an expression of the hermit's inner experience and rejection can trigger emotional disintegration."     

In conclusion, I think step by step as I self-validate with these sorts of resources I am able to intellectually come to terms with what happened, which also helps to give me a frame to emotionally come to terms with what happened. Overall I think the "bigger journey" is forgiveness and letting go of the past in a healthy way, I'm not there yet and it's not something you can force but I hope at some point to let go of the C (her initial) who forced her way into my head through violence, betrayal, and wounding me, to "overcome" these actions with my own mental stalwartness, and move back to a healthier and compassionate me. But there is no way of rushing that process, which is really a grieving process for the losses of the past.

I'm not sure how this thread can be helpful for others, but I wonder what it is that you "learnt" that has helped you to distance yourself from your ex, from your anger at them or the way they betrayed you, and move back into a "healthier spectrum" of relating to others? That is my goal. Thanks for reading.   

[Ad Meliora]

Wow.  Sounds like a must read.  If you post on this thread again, why not share the link on the site here so I and others can check it out.

From what you're describing I was up against a "hermit" type as well.  Clever, high functioning, but was on her own.  She would often say things to me like, "I wasn't looking for a boyfriend..." or "I don't need you... (to compliment me, etc...)"  I figured it was another mechanism for her to control me, to get me to work even harder.  I often came up against the wall of stony, cold silence.  Most often she would just withdraw and disappear.

I experienced this inner rage several times and it was scary. I called it the "Piñata of Rage/Pain" in the past because she just suddenly exploded.  Seemed okay on the outside, and "Boom!" I had to stand back 12 feet or more not to get hurt. One time she was going through the golf bag in her car, I'm glad she was in the confined space because the way she was yelling it didn't even seem like it was about me or anything I said.  If the car is a rocking, the "witch" may be a knocking [you out]!

So the bottom line is: they really do try to destroy or annihilate us. This is a staggering insight, especially for me,

Here's my take on this part.  I don't know if they are trying to destroy us as much as it is the monster inside, the witch, that terrible entity that rears its head when it's only us around and they've been triggered.  It's the "Incredible Hulk" attacking us not Dr. David Banner who doesn't seem to really remember what's going on.

You and I are living in objective reality.  We don't see a green monster.   We see the same exact person we saw 3 minutes earlier, 3 days earlier, and now "They" are trying to destroy us!

[poppy2]

Hey Ad Meliora!

The book is "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann Lawson, and there is a book review on this site somehwere but I can't find the link right now.

"Here's my take on this part.  I don't know if they are trying to destroy us as much as it is the monster inside, the witch, that terrible entity that rears its head when it's only us around and they've been triggered.  It's the "Incredible Hulk" attacking us not Dr. David Banner who doesn't seem to really remember what's going on."

Thanks for your thoughts. I would wonder what you thought after reading the relevant section of the book, though... Lawson says that the Witch is both a temporary ego-state as well as a type in itself. But this opinion is probably very determined by the exposure to the individual person... Let me know what you think if you get into the book!

Personally, I also thought that I could separate the person from the worst aspects of the illness, and I also dearly wanted to do this, because it is the compassionate thing to do. But I actually think this "survivalist annihilator" is her, as well. I think it's important to view people who themselves cannot take responsibility for their traumas as not only "carrying" or "capable" of those things but also, and often a profound way, driven by them and defined by them. But that is my take on it now.

best wishes to you!

[Turkish]

Here is the link from the Book Reviews board at the top of the discussion groups page: 15. Understanding the Borderline Mother - Christine Ann Lawson PhD

My mom was a Waif-Hermit. My ex was all but not a Witch (think Madea) though she sometimes termed herself the b-word.

S3 at the time said from the back seat, "mommy is a princess!" To which she replied from the passenger seat, "no, I'm a QUEEN." I didn't respond...uh, that's pejorative, right?

My ex's mother is a hermit-waif: life is hard, rescue me,according to Lawson. That explains my ex's later realization that she was the victim of covert or emotional incest.

In the dating phase, my ex literally referred to herself as a Hermit. I had no idea what that really meant.

The book explained a lot and validated my feelings, but I felt that it is also a bit brutal, especially when she talks about serial killers.

[poppy2]

In the dating phase, my ex literally referred to herself as a Hermit. I had no idea what that really meant.

The book explained a lot and validated my feelings, but I felt that it is also a bit brutal, especially when she talks about serial killers.

It's strange, isn't it, to develop a lot of knowledge and then see that the "sign" was there all along? But who could have imagined that sort of psychic structure that Lawson describes (not me). I would have had more positive, if eccentric, ideas of Hermits... that they are on a spiritual journey living in nature, for example.

I understand what you mean about the book, I think this could hold true for all of the examples actually... to only take "famous" and "powerful" examples of pwBPD, eg. Lincoln's wife, Sylvia Plath, Medea, and the serial killers, in a way dramatizes the whole picture. Regular people don't have the resources of these famous people, nor their truly excessive motivations, even if the behavioural patterns can be the same. But I do apprecite lawson's point about the "seriousness" of what BPD can do when she discusses serial killers, even if that is also potentially very stigmatizing.

[ILMBPDC]

This "Witch", or fourth type of borderline, "represents an ego-state that can be triggered by criticism, betrayal, or abandonment" and can "live inside" the three other types of borderline and only come out against family members or loved ones and never be seen by the outside world.

I would also say my ex was predominately the "hermit" type and very clever and high-functioning, so that only people who got really close would ever experience or see the rage and shame bubbling within.

This describes my ex to a T - the only people who receive his BPD-ness are those close to him. Everyone else thinks he's awesome (and he is, unless you get emotionally involved). As we got closer, he started sharing his inner turmoil with me and wow, the shame and fear under the surface was shocking, considering what he showed the outside world.

And this one also helped me with some cognitive dissonance, "The hermit rarely acknowledges mistakes or apologizes for inappropriate behaviour. The survival instinct prevails when the self is endangered... a case of self-defense and she sees herself as innocent of wrong-doing."  This helps me to take a futher small step on the journey of recognizing she will never acknowledge the pain she caused.

Yeah I realized this as well - nothing was ever his fault, and his discard of me was blatant self defense so that I wouldn't abandon or hurt him (but he had no problem hurting me)

The hermit is also most unlikely to ever seek help and, if she does, will leave once she feels trust is built or she is exposed ...

This makes me sad. But it does explain my ex - he was on the verge of getting help for his BPD - even had an appointment made with a therapist - and he cancelled, ostensibly because he wanted to find a male therapist, but even though I helped him make a list of male therapists who specialize in BPD, he never made the appointment.  I also think the only reason he even made an appointment was because I was working on myself and in therapy and it was just another form of mirroring.

Overall I think the "bigger journey" is forgiveness and letting go of the past in a healthy way, I'm not there yet and it's not something you can force but I hope at some point to let go of the C (her initial) who forced her way into my head through violence, betrayal, and wounding me, to "overcome" these actions with my own mental stalwartness, and move back to a healthier and compassionate me. But there is no way of rushing that process, which is really a grieving process for the losses of the past.

I agree wholeheartedly. 

I'm not sure how this thread can be helpful for others, but I wonder what it is that you "learnt" that has helped you to distance yourself from your ex, from your anger at them or the way they betrayed you, and move back into a "healthier spectrum" of relating to others? That is my goal. Thanks for reading.   

I think one of the biggest realizations was that this was never about me, it was always about him. Meaning, nothing I could have ever said or done would have changed the outcome. 
Another big realization was that I will never understand how his mind works, how it made no rational sense - because that is the nature of the illness.  I had to come to terms with that very early on or I would have driven myself crazy trying to make sense of it.
As for moving into a healthier spectrum of relating to others - in my case, that doesn't even have anything to do with him. I have a lot of unhealthy attachment/codependent mechanisms that stem from my childhood. I recognize that I got into the unhealthy relationship with Mr BPD (and others) because of my own issues and I am working hard on dealing with that in therapy.  I had to look back and dig deep to understand why I keep attracting unhealthy relationships in the first place.

(interestingly I am not codependent in any other type of relationship (I have very healthy boundaries as a mother, sister and friend), only in romantic relationships - but I look at my parents and can completely understand that I had a terrible model for adult relationships growing up  (alcoholic dad, codependent mom) and THAT is a big part of what I  am working on so that I can stop getting into these relationships in the future)

[poppy2]

This describes my ex to a T - the only people who receive his BPD-ness are those close to him. Everyone else thinks he's awesome (and he is, unless you get emotionally involved). As we got closer, he started sharing his inner turmoil with me and wow, the shame and fear under the surface was shocking, considering what he showed the outside world.

.
The old Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde phenomenon. These people really aren't safe to be around for this person. I used to feel I great need to expose her, because it's just so unfair. But now I need it was keeping me connected to her. The best thing is to keep distance from people who set off such vibes. But it's certainly hard.

This makes me sad. But it does explain my ex - he was on the verge of getting help for his BPD - even had an appointment made with a therapist - and he cancelled, ostensibly because he wanted to find a male therapist, but even though I helped him make a list of male therapists who specialize in BPD, he never made the appointment.  I also think the only reason he even made an appointment was because I was working on myself and in therapy and it was just another form of mirroring.

I hear you. I also felt, and feel, incredibly sad about many of the things my ex told me, the behaviours she evinced/ believed in (like that nobody will ever really love you, or that hope is like a trap), and how alone and incapable she really is. One thing I read recently which I'd like to share is that there is a difference between pity and compassion. I don't think I really paid attention to that before. I felt connected to my ex, especially as things went rocky, through compassion, and sometimes pity, and the difference is pity somehow doesn't allow them the agency to make their own choices. I should have pushed that responsibility on her more. And I think my sadness was similar. I wanted to 'resolve' my sadness by working harder, or believing more, instead of accepting that really, I couldn't do any more. But it also sucks to think that love and support really doesn't help someone with BPD. In fact I think my ex despised me for it a bit, as it gave her more power. So, my reflection here is: sadness is important to feel and own for ourselves. I hope I'll be able to set that limit in the future, and of course share it where appropriate.

 

I think one of the biggest realizations was that this was never about me, it was always about him. Meaning, nothing I could have ever said or done would have changed the outcome. 
Another big realization was that I will never understand how his mind works, how it made no rational sense - because that is the nature of the illness.  I had to come to terms with that very early on or I would have driven myself crazy trying to make sense of it.
As for moving into a healthier spectrum of relating to others - in my case, that doesn't even have anything to do with him. I have a lot of unhealthy attachment/codependent mechanisms that stem from my childhood. I recognize that I got into the unhealthy relationship with Mr BPD (and others) because of my own issues and I am working hard on dealing with that in therapy.  I had to look back and dig deep to understand why I keep attracting unhealthy relationships in the first place.

Those are two really big realizations! Thanks for sharing. They sound like really important milestones. Can I ask if you knew, then, that your partner had BPD I. e. he told you? so that you could accept his behaviours didn't have to do with you? Or do you just mean after the relationship? Personally, I went crazy trying to make sense of things  I think your way is better, but I had to make peace with it intellectually before I could emotionally.

I can also relate a lot to the way you describe your attraction to BPD partners. I feel I also suffer this in my life, and would like to transform the pain I have felt now into greater self awareness through therapy. It helps to try and accept where we were coming from, and certainly for me reading the 'Stop Caretaking' book was really helpful. It's there that she mentions that caretakers will often have functional relationships except in romantic interactions due to their own assumptions (I can relate, btw).

Best wishes!

[ILMBPDC]

Those are two really big realizations! Thanks for sharing. They sound like really important milestones. Can I ask if you knew, then, that your partner had BPD I. e. he told you? so that you could accept his behaviours didn't have to do with you? Or do you just mean after the relationship? Personally, I went crazy trying to make sense of things  I think your way is better, but I had to make peace with it intellectually before I could emotionally.

He told me he suspected he has BPD after the first time he discarded me and was dating someone else, when we were still trying to be friends. After they broke up and we started talking more often again, he basically was using me as a therapist and I got even more insight into his psyche (and also the offhand comment one day that his mother is also BPD, no idea if that is diagnosed or not...he has a sister who is a therapist and it wouldn't surprise me if she is unofficially diagnosing them).
Anyway...After he first told me he thought he was BPD, I had a lightbulb moment - I am familiar with BPD as my daughter was diagnosed as a teenager and we went through extensive DBT - she is very high functioning now and has also been extremely helpful in helping me understand the BPD mind.  Anyway, the lightbulb moment - as soon as he said BPD, I was like "yes this fits" and then I started researching about BPD in relationships (I was unfamiliar with that piece with my daughter of course) and learned about love bombing and mirroring, painting black and splitting and realized that it fit him to a tee. Of course, in my naivete and codependent tendencies, I never thought he would discard me like that and that his opening up to me could only bring us closer and that I could help him heal   
So, I had a bit of a head start in trying to understand his BPD but it still hurt and I still asked "why" a lot after the discard...I think even with a heads up, we don't want to believe it can happen to us. It still took me some time to truly understand the nature of the beast.

I can also relate a lot to the way you describe your attraction to BPD partners.

To clarify, I have only dated one BPD...but also a sociopathic (psychopathic?) con man (literally, he's been in jail repeatedly for it)... and a guy who cheated on me repeatedly and then remarried his ex wife without telling me, while we were still together (he was in the military overseas and I was stateside (with our daughter) in college ...so its not like I could have noticed she was suddenly living with him...I found out at his  funeral. And yes I still have a lot of anger about this...and no I don't ever talk about it because its so embarrassing and painful).  Other than that, I have a tendency to throw away perfectly nice men and only want to date the ones who are a complete mess.

I feel I also suffer this in my life, and would like to transform the pain I have felt now into greater self awareness through therapy. It helps to try and accept where we were coming from, and certainly for me reading the 'Stop Caretaking' book was really helpful. It's there that she mentions that caretakers will often have functional relationships except in romantic interactions due to their own assumptions (I can relate, btw).

Wow yeah I should probably read that - I have definitely noted this exact thing, that in my romantic life I am codependent but I am not at all the same in any other type of relationship. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

[Ad Meliora]

I placed a copy of this book "on hold" through my local library system.  Current status is "in transit" so it may take a bit yet.  I'd like to read the book, as you suggested Poppy2, before I comment further.  I'm only letting you know because I may resurrect the thread a couple of weeks down the line.

[Ad Meliora]

I have read the first few chapters and found it fairly interesting.  If I had any doubts about my BPDex’s condition, they are now completely eliminated.  The book is about behaviors evoked by a a mother with BPD but we have all experienced this as partners of someone with BPD.  The author talks about an environment of “overwhelming anxiety” causing confusion among other things.  That’s exactly how it was for the year with my ex.  It seems to me that there isn’t anyone among us who got away without some form of traumatic stress disorder from being in that environment.  It’s just that much worse thinking of a child growing up in that situation with out a frame of reference or any real relief from the twisted thinking that goes on.

The author starts by using some case studies and one example stood out right away as she talked about how a borderline mother complained about how she never heard from her adult daughter.  When the daughter called she was then met with, “What? What do you want?  I experienced this exact same thing more than once. I often thought my BPDex must be joking when she answered the phone like this, so I treated it that way.  Turns out, it’s just another pronouncement of the condition.

I’m going to excerpt some quotes from Lawson’s book here and site the pages.

“Jerome Kroll (1988), a psychiatrist specializing in the treatment of borderlines, explains that the ‘cognitive style seen in borderlines consists of a lack of focus or attention to the matter at hand…a balanced understanding of an event is impossible to achieve.’ Bordlerine mothers create their own reality, one that is rarely confirmed by their children or others: —Ibid p.8

This says to me no matter what you do or say it won’t affect the outcome.  Write a 3 page letter demanding answers or taking them to court—doesn’t matter.  They reside in their own reality and it won’t be daunted by you and your logical thinking or caring arguments.

“Some borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict.  Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern.  From the borderline’s perspective, however lying feels essential to survival.  (Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse.  Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused  about why others expect them to feel remorse.  They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive.  Their explanation is succinct, ‘But I had to!’ Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option.” —Ibid p.10

I think this lays it out well, the constant distortion of truth and flat-out lies.  They have no problem with it and wonder why others do.  I can’t remember getting any real apologies, ever.

“Studies show that chronically intense emotions damage the part of the brain that is responsible for memory (Christianson 1992). Chronic emotional stress exposes the brain to an excess of glucocorticoids, hormones that normally help the brain cope with stress.  The hippocampus, which controls memory functioning, contains a high number of glucocorticoid receptors and in therefore susceptible to damage (Schacter 1996). “ —Ibid p. 11

This makes a lot of sense to me.  The forgetfulness and convenient memory lapses.   I posted before that my ex would lose her phone, keys, and wallet almost daily.  Once early on she left her wallet in my car for 3 days before calling me to locate it.  Her friends covered for her and blamed me as a distraction, here it is laid out as a further chemical effect in the brain related to BPD.  I mean, at this point my ex has had close to 50 years of “chronically intense emotions” and with family history of Alzheimers I don’t see how a padded cell isn’t in her future without treatment.

“It is impossible to learn from experience if the experience is not remembered.  Thus borderlines become trapped in repetitive , self-destructive behaviors.  They may spend more money than they have, have sex without protecting themselves,  drink too much, smoke too much, or eat too much.  Although they feel terrible later, they may repeat the behavior because they do not remember the consequences.”  —Ibid p. 12”

Yep, Yep and Yep.  How can you and I hope to reform them, or hold them accountable?  Here they are, living in an alternate reality where it’s okay for them to lie and if they actually do something terrible there’s a very good chance they won’t remember it at all.  Certainly they won’t remember their actions as having any negative effects on others as they’re so wrapped up in their own weirdo-world how could they notice you are even there?

“Borderlines have negative thoughts because they have negative feelings about themselves and others.  Memory difficulties, difficulties focusing attention, confused and disorganized thinking, the inability to reason logically, morbid introspection, and intrusively negative thoughts are common (Kroll 1988)”.  —Ibid p. 22

Sounds like the perfect person to have a romantic relationship with, right?  Not.

“Ordinary mothers sleep at night; borderline mothers do not.  Borderlines dread being alone with their own thoughts; thus, intrusive, obsessive thoughts may keep them awake at night.  Noise from the radio, television, or late-night telephone calls may distract them from their anxiety and provide a sense of security.”  —Ibid p. 26

I had posted about this earlier.  My BPDex had a “Jimmy-Body” when she slept.  Kicking, twitching, punching all fair game.  I don’t think she ever slept more than 4 hours straight when I was around.  Scientists are learning more and more about the importance of sleep and its affect on our body and mental abilities.  It is an absolute necessity for proper cognitive function.  It clears out plaque in the brain and allows some much needed “downtime” for the brain to rewire and recode things.  Essentially, to make sense out of our reality in our waking state.  The lack of sleep only works to further deepen and perpetuate an already bad situation.

“Children who experience denigration and live in an invalidating environment are destined to  develop serious personality problems.  Chronic denigration can destroy even an emotionally healthy adult’s self-esteem.”  —Ibid p.46

It’s the second sentence I think is important here.  Even if we were fine going into the relationship with our BPDex, we may not be fine coming out.  Okay, let’s just say it, we’re definitely not fine coming out.  Those feelings are not ours, they are being unloaded onto us by a person with a serious mental condition. It’s just hard to separate it out, especially when exposed for a long period of time.

“Stone (in Cauwels 1992) explains that ‘when a borderline feels stressed and threatened, the habit memory system easily bypasses the cognitive and frontal lobe influence…She is like a soldier in a jungle, shooting first and then asking questions.’ “  —Ibid p. 49

We’ve all been shot first by our BPDexs.  Damage done, trust and esteem take the hit.

It’s looking to me that the Waif describes my BPDex best, seems to fit well.  I have to finish the other chapters first, but I think I’ll be posting again on that.  She did like to withdraw often and had  a little witch in her though, but that just may be the Way of the Waif.

After reading this much I’d be interested in a book on romantic partners coping with a break-up from their BPDex and some more modern research on the topic.

[Turkish]

The memory loss is interesting and frightening.

I let the baby fall asleep on my shoulder when I was supposed to keep him awake for his bath (because of he skipped a bath, he'd get sick or something anxiety).

I dreaded having to tell her. She was in the kitchen making dinner. When I walked out she slammed the door the the fridge hard enough that the door contents fell out and broke on the floor, a big mess. Like a little  I was on the floor cleaning it up while she chewed angrily at the table. It was the only time I wasa little afraid to go to sleep next to her.

I mentioned it many years later and she had no memory of it. She believed me and seemed stressed that she couldn't remember it.

[PearlsBefore]

I placed a copy of this book "on hold" through my local library system.  Current status is "in transit" so it may take a bit yet.  I'd like to read the book, as you suggested Poppy2, before I comment further.  I'm only letting you know because I may resurrect the thread a couple of weeks down the line.

If you have trouble getting the book, feel free to PM me - it has been a lifesaver and I ramble about it here quite a bit as being the best book at completely ignoring "What if the BPD person reads this book, we need to sound optimistic and pleasant?" and "How do we tiptoe around the fact BPD is often the fault of the person's parents/upbringing and assure everybody it's fine?".

The truth is, 90% of books have little value because they are aimed at convincing loved ones of BPD to buy them, which means telling you what you want to hear ("of course it's not your fault, deep down they really love you, they'll get better soon!", etc...or worse, they're trying to simultaneously speak to the BPDs themselves. (One series that you'll come across has simultaneously released both a  "BPD book" and a "Guide to X" which are basically "this one is for the patient, this other one is for their parent/spouse/cousin/etc"...but it's incredibly unhealthy to my perspective because the second book acknowledges that it's lying in the first book because BPDs need to believe X, shouldn't know Y. I used to find it incredibly patronizing (and showed it to the BPD for whom I had bought the book when she started trying to convince me of weird lies the first book told her about prognosis, etc) although after more than a decade into this ordeal...I increasingly "understand, if not agree" why some doctors and such just advocate lying to the BPD patient and shrugging it off.

I typically prefer reading medical studies, instead of books, for BPD because there's more intellectual honesty and less effort to sugarcoat the issue...although you can see that recent studies are aware of the effect of the web making everything accessible to non-professionals, and the most-recent studies are concerned about cancel-culture if they don't carefully dance around what they're trying to say. But Dr. Lawson's book isn't like that - it's blunt and to the point.

[Ad Meliora]

As I read on I found some other passages in Lawson’s book interesting and I’ll excerpt them here.

“Suicide missions in wartime and the later atomic bomb testings were nothing compared to living with his wife, Clarnell” (p.8). Mr Kemper recalled that “‘she affected me as a grown man more than three hundred and ninety-six days and nights of fighting on the front did. I became confused and was not certain of anything for quite a time’” (Cheney 1976, p.8) —Ibid p. 130

Um, yeah.  What can I say, but who among us hasn’t experienced something like this at the hands of our BPDex? PTSD isn’t even the right term for it, maybe.  pwBPDTSD (?)  If it ever seems like I’m discounting this experience, I’m not, I just don’t want anyone to dwell there—in that terrible awful space that is worse than war!  I spent a year “Shell-shocked” after my break-up where I wasn’t quite certain of anything either.

Adler (1985) states that “borderline rage can be annihilatory in intent and intensity” (p.35).  He explains that “recognition memory rage” is a level of rage so intense that the borderline is momentarily unable to recognize the person who is the target of her anger.  The person is no longer recognized as human.  Adler describes a patient who stated that she was so angry with him that she “stomped” him out of her mind.  —Ibid p.140

Yeah, I’ve been on the other end of that too, it isn’t pretty.  I once let my [no-good] brother-in-law with a PD unload his verbal rage and said/did nothing to defend myself.  I developed a bad case of Shingles afterwards that lasted for 12 weeks.  I didn’t sleep for 7 days straight in the worst of it.  That was an eye-opener for me.  Adults have to disengage from the rage.

I’ve read Lawson’s description of all four types and with my ex it was definitely all about her, so the Queen was present for sure.  I was her loyal subject until I wasn’t.  I realized the Queen was mad at some point, so it was “off with my head”.  I was far too curious and contemplative to be controlled for very long, making me far too much work and a huge liability to exposing her condition (fear, anger, helplessness, etc…)  Her methods of guilt and shame were effective though.  She spent sums upon sums of money buying things trying to fill that empty hole inside her.  I thought the dominating force inside was fear, but I think now it must be emptiness.  How can someone on the outside ever know if inside someone is nothingness?  She was all four as there was overlap as the author said there could be.

She was a Queen living as a Hermit with the helplessness of a Waif.  When all of that failed she summoned the Witch to do her bidding with an annihilating rage.

If I were writing a book about my specific ex I would add two more:  The Captivator & The Storyteller.

The Captivator, is simply this:  someone who draws you in like a magnet.  Perhaps with some obvious flirtatious ways and personal charisma or possibly much more subtly by withdrawing and enticing you in.  Like a mosquito who anesthetizes the spot before the bite, she does too, and before you know it, her hooks are in you pumping poision and keeping you in her grasp.  She gets you hooked and now you are at her mercy, and she’s an itch you feel you have to scratch, but the bite is in a place you can’t quite reach, driving you crazy at times.  Main emotion at work:  desire to control others.

The Storyteller is one with a silver tongue, she can spin a yarn in an instant.  Convincing and engaging you want to hear what she has to say and how the story goes.  She can talk you into and out of anything.  She likes to target her audience and knows just what will work for who and when.  She may tell different versions of a story to different people, but because she also has the Captivator at work in her you may not even care to point it out.  If you are foolish enough to do so, you may get a flash of a stern look, but she is so apt at storytelling she weaves in even more grandiose (yet plausible) details into the yarn so it all now makes sense somehow.  Major emotion at work:  To be liked and respected by others.

This book is 20 years old.  I would be interested in modern studies, especially relating to memory functions in pwBPD.  Is there a definitive link with prolonged intense emotional responses and damage to the hippocampus and/or other memory functions in the brain?  I agree with Turkish the memory loss issues are interesting and disturbing.

I think this book is particularly helpful if you know (or suspect) you had a parent with BPD.  I have yet to finish it.  I appears the remaining chapters are how to live with the different types and maybe diffuse the damage.

[poppy2]

Hi,

Your suggestions are really interesting, and thanks for sharing all of those passages. I, too, highlighted many and was also particularly struck by the veteran saying that his time in war didn't compare to the effect on his mind of the relationship. How validating is that! Therapists (at least mine) have absolutely no idea, unless they directly work with these topics, about how incredibly destructive it is to be in a relationship with someone with an unstable or shifting sense of self.

I know what you mean about looking for a book on 'what this relationship did to me and why'. So far as I know, it hasn't been published yet. But the book 'psychopath free' is kind of an attempt at trying to do that. I think there is far more literature on surviving narcissistic relationships than BPD ones. For example - 'how to devalue the narcissist and move on with your life' and Fjelstad's book on narcissistic relationships are both also very good. But a book summarizing the idealizarion, devaluation and discard stages from the point of view of the non is yet to come! Maybe you should write it 

I like your invention of categories as well, I can relate to both of them. What I liked about the borderline mother book is that it fleshed out such archetypes in terms of the scientific literature and the 'major emotion at work'... but from their perspective. For example, how to communicate the shifts, twists, distortions and manipulations behind the 'The Storyteller''s motivation to be the center of everything? and, behind that, the lack of intrinsic worth that necessitates such maneuvers, which can be so deceptive and so convincing? We've lived it so we know it, but I think really describing it would be a mountain of work (and very frightening.) Suffice to say - I recognize your profiles.

[Ad Meliora]

I like that you started the "Borderline Book Club" thread here Poppy.  Why not discuss books written on the topic?

The book is fairly easy to read and has a lot of good information in it. As I said, it confirms what the BPD condition looks like and that is helpful for anyone wondering if their partner (or mother) has it.  Lawson is trying to help simplify the understanding of the condition and the use of categories and archetypes is another way of doing that, which I think can be good to for the reader.  One thing to note is that her citations go across all the different types often from the same source so it just shows the condition is complex and her categories imperfect.

I just finished "Loving the Queen without becoming her subject", so I am that far along.  After reading the three types and how to deal with them (as adult children) again I see parts of all of the types in my BPDex.  Maybe she was just that nuts to fill all three?    There are good suggestions in all of the archetypes of how to deal with a parent with BPD (or a spouse/partner).  The author talks about how logical and natural consequences should be used to respond to inappropriate behavior, and I think that's right.  That's what I used to end my relationship.  I told her I can't go on like this and if you continue I will leave.  She continued, I left.

Another interesting thing the author brought up was in the Hermit section, she talked about the anxiety of the Hermit mother as "contagious".  I think this is right on.  I'm going to explore this more, but I found a lot of the Hermit section to resonate with what I experienced in my BPDex.  I think her deep seated fear was so powerful and intense it acted like a tuning fork for my deep seated fears that I had thought were long dealt with and buried.  It contributed to this feeling of "overwhelming anxiety" just being in the relationship with her.  I think this is maybe why we feel we catch their disease.  It's not their fears at work, but ours.  They are just so consumed by them they pull us in and trigger our fears and they try to throw their fears onto us as well.   A terrible terrible deal, for sure.

So I've heard you express your disappointment with your therapist a couple of times now.  Since you're paying (good) money for this service, I would think you should be happy with what you get in return so you may have to shop around.  Even if they aren't any good with BPD, maybe you could explore this fear question with your therapist.  It seems you were pretty certain that "The Hermit" fit your ex, and she is driven by fear, so it seems maybe a good place to start.

I'm impressed with your reading list Poppy, if you need me to sign off on your book credits I'm willing to do so.    Do you get a free sub (sandwich) if you fill a punchcard with 10 books read?    

Maybe a book does need to be written, then I'd have to think too much about my BPDex, and that sounds like a lot of work, I'm in a lazy mode now moving into winter.

Something to think about is that I've come too far to have it all undone by the twisted thinking of my borderline ex.  It's fair to have to deal with my own stuff and issues brought up by this relationship, but I'm not having any of her BS.  If she wants to implode and self-destruct I'm fine with that.  Best I can tell she's on a trajectory to become institutionalized at some point.  I have to look out for my own well-being as I'm sure you feel the same way about your mental health and general outlook.

As I finish up the book, maybe I'll post one more time if I find any other observations worthy of sharing.  So what's the next book in the list? 

[Ad Meliora]

I finished the book and while I'll spare any more excerpting of passages I will say there is a lot of good reading in the last chapters as well.  What I like about this book is that it talks about the effects of a pwBPD (Mothers) on other people (children) and what can be done to mitigate negative affects in adulthood.  Ways of breaking the cycle which the author is optimistic about doing.

At the time of the writing she was saying new things were being learned every day and could see that there would be a "cure" for BPD at some point.  20 years later, you can look at this board and see it's still a big problem.  I'd go as far to say that modern culture, at least here in the USA, is a borderline breeder reactor.  People are more isolated and disconnected than ever from any sort of shared values or culture or "village" that could be helpful in raising well-adjusted children in a healthy environment.

I thought it was interesting as she quoted holocaust survivors as relating to children surviving a borderline mother (namely, the Witch).  Some shocking parallels were drawn between those letters and statements from patients.  Speaking to the seriousness of the condition and its affects unconsciously doled out onto unsuspecting children (or adult romantic partners like us).

I also found it interesting that one study showed that 20% of people had a level of anger that could be damaging to one's health.  That's scary, because these people are on the roads, in grocery stores, at public meetings on the pandemic, etc...  It just makes a person think for a bit.  That, and maybe 6% of people have BPD and are living in their own reality so I think twice about getting mad at the driver cutting me off, for example.

I'd recommend it, it reads easily and I think it could help a lot of people on this forum better understand what they are going through.