Detaching Lesson #? Forgiveness vs Acceptance

[poppy2]

Hi all,

I've actually found one of the most helpful things about the forum to be past threads where topics I've had questions about have already been addressed by past members. So in that vein I wanted to start a thread here in the hope it would be helpful.

I reached a powerful place today where I accepted that my ex is unable to ever give me the recognition I deserve. Given that this included a sexual assault as well as the usual horrific discard, that was a pretty big place to reach. I think it's going to take some time for this feeling to settle in but it certainly freed up room inside me for more new life. My anger at the injustice of it all had kept me stuck because it was directed at a need she is unable to fulfill. I had thought of taking her to court to force getting this need fulfilled, and I haven't ruled it out for the future, but I think acceptance is stronger.

This doesn't mean that I've forgiven her, though. I don't know if I'll ever be able to do that without her explicitly apologizing and asking for it, although I have tried unsuccessfully to do so. That's okay. Acceptance felt similar in that it involved letting go of my expectation of who I would like her to be rather than who she is. And it didn't mean forsaking what I feel I deserve.

I think of my journey as being able to 'surmount' the effect this illness has had on my life, rather than combat or condemn it. It took a lot of 'useless' struggling to be able to reach, or even consider, acceptance that my ex isn't capable of giving me what I consider to be basic human recognition. I'm glad I made it, just the first step, but I think it will develop more over time.

One of the things that helped me came from an old post where one member corrected another, saying they aren't 'high functioning' BPDs but rather immature, low functioning emotional children. I was caught in the trap of the ex I admired and therefore still 'needed' things from. Another came from a pamphlet on non-violent communication from Marshall B Rosenberg called 'the surprising purpose of anger.' He writes to pay attention to' what is living' in communication. It helped me to set aside thoughts and judgements and embrace the feelings. What was living for me was acceptance, the very first time I've felt it since she betrayed me 5 months ago.

non-religious blessings to all

[Cromwell]

I had thought of taking her to court to force getting this need fulfilled, and I haven't ruled it out for the future, but I think acceptance is stronger.

Hi poppy

superb awakenings in your post. but forgive me in advance for not knowing the background details. If there is something you might want to take to court, is the passage of time something that could work against you here by waiting? Many of us as victims get stunned and depressed and in these moments of coping can lose the ability to take action. There was problems with my ex and some threats she made, I got the police involved to be aware and was given good advice, that settled it for me. if there is something in your experience that you need support to deal with, reach out and speak out. my ex has technically commited crimes against me, but in the big picture my biggest remedy was to realise she will leave me completely alone and not harass.

there are others who have been hurt, and if you fall into the category, think seriously about pursuing it. well done for the progress youve made already.

[poppy2]

HI Cromwell,

Thanks a lot for your reply. Yeah, I was stunned and depressed, but I don't think in this case the passage of time will work against me. I don't know the statute of limitations but I think it's important to accept everything emotionally and recover first, and only then with 'clear eyes' next year consider if I will take her to court. Because it's an adversarial and costly process and basically might not really bring me what I want anyway.

I asked on the other board 'custody and divorcing' and got some good advice from the people there. I would prefer restorative rather than punitive justice but that isn't an offer from the Western legal system.

Wish you well!

[Ad Meliora]

Sounds good Poppy.  There's some good stuff in the old threads isn't there.  I usually check those first before posting to see if anything like what I'm posting pops up in the last 90 days.  They don't want you resurrecting threads too old because often times those people are no longer involved in the discussion, but I found it to be a lot of the same thing over and over...

"...they aren't 'high functioning' BPDs but rather immature, low functioning emotional children...---Poppy2

Right on, Poppy.  I'd like to say she acted like a 9 yr old, but it's more like a 5 year old many times.  She's 50 now.  The research says that BPD tapers off after age 44, but not in my experience.  She had a full-blown well-manifested case in my opinion.  I think it was especially hard for me to understand why someone who was almost 50 acted like she did--it kept me in the relationship longer because it seemed like something fixable.

Another came from a pamphlet on non-violent communication from Marshall B Rosenberg called 'the surprising purpose of anger.'--Poppy2

I actually went through a weekend workshop on Non-violent communication as explained by Rosenberg's "book".  It was part of my training for starting a new job where I was going to be interacting with the public and often in emotionally charged situations.  That was almost 20 yrs ago now.  It was helpful.  I viewed it as a tool to use when members of the community were upset and only now see the value in using it to relate to a romantic partner.  The workshop exercises focused on trying to identify the emotion the other person was feeling, getting them to agree to that and letting them explain it.  Once the emotion was diffused you would hopefully get to the point where you could start a dialogue, such as, "Are you ready to hear how I'm feeling about...so and such?"

I had no idea she had BPD.  She had no control or understanding of her feelings or herself, but she masked this supremely.  She was an expert at misdirection and assessing blame elsewhere.  That's how she got along til this point.  But Poppy, I'd like to think that after coming up against me that there is some "collateral damage" on my part.  Not in the way she hurt me and ripped at my insides, but in the way that she did see I actually saw her as a valuable person.  That I did see her as a person capable of being loved and having self-worth.  I planted these seeds within her, no matter how hard she rejected it and kept up the torture and abuse.  That she is a person worthy of getting the help she needs to stop the cycle of torture.  I didn't know she had BPD or I would've engaged the tools of non-violent communication that I know. I would've used tools like SET and DEARMAN.  I would've not shamed or blamed or issued anything like an ultimatum.

My BPDex constantly, constantly, pushed me into a JADE situation and when dealing with 'normal' people they don't usually freak out when you justify, defend, or explain your position.  Who knew?  I'm the wiser now, and hopefully I will recognize the signs early and know enough to disengage at the start.

A dandelion seed will last up to 7 years in nature and wait for the right conditions to sprout.  I'm not sure how long those seeds will last.  The soil was fallow and she seemed largely content with her catastrophic condition to me. Who knows. Not my problem now.  As you say acceptance is the first step.  I have to accept my role and readily forgive myself as I had no understanding of what I was dealing with.  As the detachment process unfolds, I will completely forgive her.  Not for her sake, but for mine, because as long as I hold onto any feelings for her (good/bad/hate/love) I am still attached.  I seek indifference in this case.

[Cromwell]

sometimes have to transcend the scientific literature - of course, it helps to get educated on the condition but not let it become too entrenched. this is a relationship want to move on from, hard as it has been my experience is to treat it like a once engulfing fire, it has to eventually have the fuel source removed not tackling it. go for the source.

that might involve having to eat a lot of humble pie and take ideals like justice and forget about them. sometimes people dont get justice and its a harsh reality. it was in my case, but radical acceptance helped me to move on from it.

detach detach detach and reclaim a life without that intensity of focus. it is possible, it takes a bit of time and i think new habits with some courage that you wont "die" from their loss and separation. For a more generalised but very relevant text on individuation separation refer to "psychological rebirth of the human infant" by M, Mahler.

dig towards where things apply to us rather than expertising on "what bpd is" and their issues and so on, there is far more yield there.

best

[Cromwell]

the thing about justice, there is a intersect that involves deterrence.

your prosecution, should it be successful, acts as a deterrence to further miscreant behaviour

they have a personality disorder

yet they know what they are doing

an incorrrible mess that requires control, the alternative is madness

my ex just leaves me alone because she knows im a hot potato. resorative justice? what about the rest of society. if you have an angle and something to use, utlise it - if not for yourself the benefit of others, and your ex. this is not just a 1 v 1 show, this is a public health hazard.

[poppy2]

I actually went through a weekend workshop on Non-violent communication as explained by Rosenberg's "book".  It was part of my training for starting a new job where I was going to be interacting with the public and often in emotionally charged situations.  That was almost 20 yrs ago now.  It was helpful.  I viewed it as a tool to use when members of the community were upset and only now see the value in using it to relate to a romantic partner.  The workshop exercises focused on trying to identify the emotion the other person was feeling, getting them to agree to that and letting them explain it.  Once the emotion was diffused you would hopefully get to the point where you could start a dialogue, such as, "Are you ready to hear how I'm feeling about...so and such?"

Yes, this has actually really helped me. I think it's helpful in general, Rosenberg spoke about how identifying the active 'emotion' is basically a way to find compassion, rather than focusing on 'shoulds' or other thoughts. I mean, it's a good way to deal with conflict, but I wouldn't want to have to think like that all the time, which is what a BPD relarionship would require. It helps me to see my ex's communications as always 'emotion' based and not logical-argument based. It also helps to separate and see how childish they are, really, but in a sense of also looking to get their needs met (that's the compassionate perspective of N-V communication)

I had no idea she had BPD.  She had no control or understanding of her feelings or herself, but she masked this supremely.  She was an expert at misdirection and assessing blame elsewhere.  That's how she got along til this point.  But Poppy, I'd like to think that after coming up against me that there is some "collateral damage" on my part.  Not in the way she hurt me and ripped at my insides, but in the way that she did see I actually saw her as a valuable person.  That I did see her as a person capable of being loved and having self-worth.  I planted these seeds within her, no matter how hard she rejected it and kept up the torture and abuse.  That she is a person worthy of getting the help she needs to stop the cycle of torture.  I didn't know she had BPD or I would've engaged the tools of non-violent communication that I know. I would've used tools like SET and DEARMAN.  I would've not shamed or blamed or issued anything like an ultimatum.

I understand you. I think it's sweet that you think you may have planted a seed in there, and I hope that you are right. I'm sure you did your best to, and also in general with communication - I issued ultimatums and did all sorts of stuff that I thought were necessary for my self-respect that I now regret as 'unsuccessful' communicative models. But let me ask you and myself a question - did your ex collaborate with you in this by telling you she had BPD, so that you could prepare accordingly? mine didn't. I am 90% sure she has been diagnosed and recieved treatment in the past. And the fact she didn't tell me is a big black mark against her in my book, becuase I never would have been so hurt if I'd known what I was up against and protected myself better. Also, I am pretty sure that for my ex the relationship 'confirmed' what she already 'knew' - that nobody will ever love you, that love will never work out, etc etc. But she ended it precisely because I was trying to love her, so it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suppose my larger point is - I may have tried my best, but I really don't know if inside the disordered mind they can see what we were trying to give for what it is. But that is just my experience and yours could be totally different, I'm not trying to counter your point but offer another perspective on it.

My BPDex constantly, constantly, pushed me into a JADE situation and when dealing with 'normal' people they don't usually freak out when you justify, defend, or explain your position.  Who knew?  I'm the wiser now, and hopefully I will recognize the signs early and know enough to disengage at the start.

Who knew?   I think JADE is actually pretty healthy - in an argument u need to be able to justify your position, argue, defend and explain it... it's a talent, actually, we shouldn't forget that. Just not with BPD.

A dandelion seed will last up to 7 years in nature and wait for the right conditions to sprout.  I'm not sure how long those seeds will last.  The soil was fallow and she seemed largely content with her catastrophic condition to me. Who knows. Not my problem now.  As you say acceptance is the first step.  I have to accept my role and readily forgive myself as I had no understanding of what I was dealing with.  As the detachment process unfolds, I will completely forgive her.  Not for her sake, but for mine, because as long as I hold onto any feelings for her (good/bad/hate/love) I am still attached.  I seek indifference in this case.

This is a beautiful image and you're right, some seeds take a long time to flower. I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it because it can also restore love to (at least) your image or experience of the situation. Personally after she abandoned/discarded me I was trying to think of the wounds on trees, how they grow and grow around these huge hurts very incrementally for years, and wishing I could be in 'tree time' rather than 'human time'

I appreciate what you say about forgiveness. Personally, I don't think I have ever really reached a position of indifference towards anybody I loved, but have certainly always (in the past) reached a place where they well and truly are past. The lack of closure in BPD makes that much harder but, in the end, who cares? it's their lack of closure, we can heal, many of them are stuck for ever. We can have (or recover) an 'even keel', so to speak. And that is what I am working towards.

[Ad Meliora]

Also, I am pretty sure that for my ex the relationship 'confirmed' what she already 'knew' - that nobody will ever love you, that love will never work out, etc etc. But she ended it precisely because I was trying to love her, so it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy.--Poppy2

There was a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy on her part.  It pretty much was her mindset, whatever she thought about a situation she took as gospel.  Whenever I would try to correct any thinking it was usually rebuked.  I think a similar scenario played out that you highlighted above.  I shared with her exactly what it took for me to break-up in past r/s and she used that as a roadmap to push me out.  I just wonder for how long, was it just the last few months or after the first few months?  Doesn't matter.  She decided she was unlovable and that it was always going to end, and it makes a better (more pitiful) story if the partner leaves her so she made that happen.  Pulled my strings, pushed my buttons and presto!  Done.  I think now she gets to use the excuse: "well, he left me and that's why I'm not dating... (not because I'm the hermit type of BPD)".  I'm sure I was an excuse for the whole time we were dating for bad behaviors so she's likely gotten 2yrs and 2 months of good excuses out of the deal.

did your ex collaborate with you in this by telling you she had BPD, so that you could prepare accordingly?--Poppy

No.  She made it seem like she had some problems in the distant past, which who knows, in her mind maybe that was 2 weeks prior.   It took a long while to figure out she was on some pretty serious anti-depressants which I think she mostly took.  As you write this, I have been thinking I'm sure she knew, or maybe did have a diagnosis in the past.  She was seeing a doctor out of town which is strange because we live in a huge metro area.  I think maybe that doctor is telling her what she wants to hear and will prescribe drugs without too many questions.

The "seeds" idea is wishful thinking on my part, but I like to remain optimistic in all things.  Let's just say I did what I could with the understanding and tools I had at the time.  She was not a collaborative partner.  She was a person with a serious personality disorder who figured out cunning ways to mask it.  And she looked like Sherilyn Fenn, so I looked past it.

It's a life sentence for them, our exes.  We can heal, in tree-time, human-time, certainly sometime!

[Ad Meliora]

This is just another note to tag onto this thread and some food for thought as you go through your journey, Poppy2.  It's clear to me that you have been very thoughtful in your approach to understand what has happened to you, as well as your replies to others.  Your BPDex is incapable of providing that human recognition, whereas the members here on the forum are fully capable.

Hey, you're doing a good job. I think so, at least.

As you compose your thoughts we can all say, "Yeah, yeah, that happened with me too!" and not everyone will be able to say that about everything and be able to write it out in every post, but know that I am at least feeling that.  I can tell from the things you've written here that you are a valuable person, and you weren't deserving of the foul treatment by your BPDex.

Here's another thought relating to my "wishful thinking" where nothing we did seemed to ever stick to them:  our love, compassion, caring, etc... So why should any of their disordered thinking stick to us?  Right?  Why can't we be like Teflon to their bs?  Why can't we throw away those nasty deeds like the wrapper of a candy bar, and say "that's done and over."   I know it has an answer, and yes we're nons with built in compassion, but why can't we re-order our thinking to counter the twisted thinking we encountered?  It was garbage, garbage in : garbage out.  Well, Friday is trash day--so put it in the bin for good!

You bring up some good points in your post and what it seems to point to is while it's good to understand some of the basics of BPD and their condition it's largely a waste of time to dwell too much on understanding it for us.  We're not going to convince them of anything, get them to change, accept what they did and take responsibility.  No way!  [even in court, she'd still blame you, hate you]

What we can change is ourselves.  What we can better understand is ourselves. That is my journey and focus now.  Backtrack what got me to the point I got into the relationship so I can plot a course forward and avoid that pitfall in the future.

Our exes got in, they found a hole in us and exploited it.  I've come to recognize I was the one who handed over the "keys to the kingdom".  It was my doing, and that became my undoing.  If a thief bangs on your door and says "I'm going to take everything precious from you!" You know enough to barricade the door and call the cops.  When a charming little girl comes to your door with big doe eyes holding a sparrow with a broken wing and then asks you for help, you readily let her in.

[poppy2]

Here's another thought relating to my "wishful thinking" where nothing we did seemed to ever stick to them:  our love, compassion, caring, etc... So why should any of their disordered thinking stick to us?  Right?  Why can't we be like Teflon to their bs?  Why can't we throw away those nasty deeds like the wrapper of a candy bar, and say "that's done and over."   I know it has an answer, and yes we're nons with built in compassion, but why can't we re-order our thinking to counter the twisted thinking we encountered?  It was garbage, garbage in : garbage out.  Well, Friday is trash day--so put it in the bin for good!

Hey, thanks for your kind words and thoughts. I wish there was a clear answer to this question! why should their bs stick to us? in my case, I would say it's because I'm not an emotional chameleon, because I bonded to the person I thought she was, and because it takes ages to properly process some of the emotions she put me through. The discard, for example, I found totally inhuman, I was just in shock that somebody (and I also mean somebody I respected and let into my life) would ever treat me like that. But I wish their bs could slide off me, and I think eventually once I've processed it all it will. What do you think? any particular reasons why her bs stuck to you? (sorry, I've had a long day and just realised you didn't use the word bs but rather trash... thats what I mean)

You bring up some good points in your post and what it seems to point to is while it's good to understand some of the basics of BPD and their condition it's largely a waste of time to dwell too much on understanding it for us.  We're not going to convince them of anything, get them to change, accept what they did and take responsibility.  No way!  [even in court, she'd still blame you, hate you]

Honestly, at the moment I'm coming from a very different place in terms of processing. I'm trying to adjust the cognitive dissonance in my mind between who I thought she was and who her behaviours reveals her to be. It's taking a really long time but I think it's the better way for me. This way, I can forgive or at least accept the 'ex in my mind' and eventually detach and let her go. I was in so much shock before I couldn't really process her behaviour and it's effect on me. Parallel to this is learning about myself as well.

What we can change is ourselves.  What we can better understand is ourselves. That is my journey and focus now.  Backtrack what got me to the point I got into the relationship so I can plot a course forward and avoid that pitfall in the future.

Our exes got in, they found a hole in us and exploited it.  I've come to recognize I was the one who handed over the "keys to the kingdom".  It was my doing, and that became my undoing.  If a thief bangs on your door and says "I'm going to take everything precious from you!" You know enough to barricade the door and call the cops.  When a charming little girl comes to your door with big doe eyes holding a sparrow with a broken wing and then asks you for help, you readily let her in.

I also think your way is very good. Backtrack, and renew to who you were/can be now. I can imagine that it's a good way of basically cutting your losses from an experience you won't ever understand (who could?) and returning to a healthier and more balanced you. I agree that exploitation is a huge part of these relarionships, I also felt totally used and exploited, but that can also be a consequence of caretaking acc. to the book on that. Have you read the workshop 'painting our exs black, a good idea?' it's an interesting discussion. I'm still going to look for and try to find human motivations for her inhuman behaviour, it helps me let go.

Good luck!

[poppy2]

my ex just leaves me alone because she knows im a hot potato. resorative justice? what about the rest of society. if you have an angle and something to use, utlise it - if not for yourself the benefit of others, and your ex. this is not just a 1 v 1 show, this is a public health hazard.

Hey Cromwell, thanks for posting. I think we're coming at this from different angles... in my understanding, restorative Justice would actually mean that society or institutions pressure pwBPD or perpetrators in general to get involved in the discussion about healing, they would need to hear about the grievances against them and address them in some way. That's why it's 'restorative'. But i was referring specially to assault, it's difficult to quantify thst sort of damage in emotional terms.
Best wishes!

[Ad Meliora]

Hi Poppy, thanks for replying even if tired. BTW I did use BS and that can be used interchangeably with "garbage" as far as I'm concerned.

I'm grateful for people having different approaches and being willing to share them here, and I agree to something you said in a reply to an earlier post and that it's okay to disagree (not necessarily argue) on the approaches.  It helps each person either better fortify their position or shows some weaknesses in the argument that maybe should be looked into.  I'm looking for the better way, to get towards better things, right?  So I'm curious what works for people.

Here's where I am at today.  I was in the relationship for a year, and it was so emotionally draining/intense it feels like 5 years.  I'm willing to pitch it all (all the BS) into the trash bin, let it smash to pieces, and chalk it up to a delusion of mine.  Ostensibly saying it was a joke. I was duped, swindled, hood-winked, etc...  With it now in a bin, I can pick out the pieces I can learn from or use to help me in the future.  Keep some of the good things, maybe, but I'm willing to risk just tossing it all out because at least 50% of was extremely toxic to me, to who I am.

I don't know why her BS stuck to me. I don't know why I couldn't shake her a year later still. If I could've pitched it all months ago I would've and I wouldn't be here on this forum.  It's a key point.  From what I've read here our BPDex's all got to the same place inside all of us, where their garbage sticks and does tremendous damage.  We all react differently. We all believe it happened differently, but yet they got in there somehow.  It doesn't matter any of our background or education level or any outside factors that are used to divide and categorize.  The monster of annihiliation got to our human-ness and has wreaked havoc on our well-being.

I'm a cold-turkey kind of guy.  So I'm ready to bundle it all up and toss it on the fire.  I'll maybe grab some things off as it burns, but I think it has to go.  This is a complete break from any previous romantic relationship I've ever had.  I usually try to reconcile, be friends as much as possible.  It's not always possible.  My fear of abandonment drives me to be the one to initiate the break-up if the relationship sours.  There's ample time to discuss the downfall (as sometimes it's taken years) but if it's going to break I prefer the one driving the bus to the station.

[Cromwell]

a bit of control in the midst of not having any, why not, keeps things on an even keel it sounds the right way.

to share whats working for me and my plans to consolidate and build on it. I think I mentioned before - its a trip into one self and in my case, a therapist (a good one, not some weirdo) would likely have done wonders and saved a lot of time. To explore things that can get conflated like "fear of abandoment" and "attachment disorder", two very different things, it takes specialised insight to discern the nuances.

youve touched on things that you suspect play a role - can I ask if youve got therapy or thought about it? It sounds like your on to something that could turn out fruitful for you to explore, as much as the majority of folks here didnt just stumble into these relationships from a backdrop of terra-firma personalities.

poppy: good luck to you either way, I found historically the notion of justice was something that repeatedly arrived when id given up on it. all my enemies perished without my intervention. theres just my ex left and the guy she cheated with, both are on the radar and kept out of jurisdiction. what can i say, I use them as case examples, I go out and live my life normally and "fly the flag" like the Americans do when they strafe around the edges of international airspace.

I live my life and heal myself without an iota of their input. someone once told me that is what "kills" them the most, we just dont realise it, ive got beyond that - i simply dont care what they think, or if they expire in the corner of a flop house with a needle in their arm.

get her out your head, you cant lose what you never had in the first place. they didnt connect, they never do they lack that ability.

[MeandThee29]

the thing about justice, there is a intersect that involves deterrence.

your prosecution, should it be successful, acts as a deterrence to further miscreant behaviour

my ex just leaves me alone because she knows im a hot potato.

Gosh, this sounds like my divorce attorney. Mine was a marriage of several decades, and he said that it wasn't just about the settlement. We also wanted to make a statement that the days of messing with me were over. Closeout become a mess too and actually took longer than the divorce, partially because of the pandemic. Thankfully I had no custody issues, and there was nothing in the agreement requiring ongoing contact. When it was done, it was done.

Our long-term, mutual therapist told me that she had diagnosed him with aspects of BPD/NPD after he had settled many states away. She was headed towards getting him to face that when he quit, and then he took off some months later. His family rallied around him and decided that therapy was all a crock. His attorney begged him to get therapy and had a terrible time with his client, but as far as we know, my ex ignored that too. So that's that.