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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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SPD438

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« on: November 06, 2021, 07:27:43 PM »

Hello all and thanks for letting me post up.
Been married to a borderline for 6 plus years.
First 2 were pretty good at times. My wife enjoyed the things I did, was super sweet and I believed she "was the one". I had not married ever. I was 44 years old.
I allowed my wife to move into my residence with her 3 children after being with her for 5 months. We wed 13 months after.
Over the years, I've been subject to the insanity of it all pretty much on a consistent basis. This year saw some incidents that were the "shots heard around the world". Most offensive has been life in this home for the past 8? weeks.
On 11 Sep. 21, I woke up in the middle of the night to use the restroom. Stood up once out of bed, then suddenly collapsed resulting in 2 fractured ribs and an ER trip.
4 days after the fall, my wife told a lie to my mother so egregious that I drew the line and refused to "wipe the board clean" until we had a civilized adult conversation about issues that were bothering me. She refused for 7 weeks to speak about it. I asked her 20-30 times in that timeframe to speak. She never once asked me.
Prior to the fall, she joined me in a counselling session with my therapist. He related that he didn't see things going well for us.
After 7 weeks, I approached her once again and requested a civilized adult conversation. She stared straight ahead. I said then we need to discuss ending this situation here. She leapt out of the chair and said "fine, lets end it. You get an attorney, I'll get an attorney and we'll proceed."
I filed for divorce 3 days later.
A little bit about myself. I'm a recovering alcoholic 9 years clean that works a program. Am blessed to have great family and friends that are supportive of me and wish me the best.
I believe a person with substance abuse/alcohol issues can recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Can borderlines?
Now after 8 weeks of no talking and suddenly served with papers named as respondent in divorce petition, she wants to talk. Wants to take the weight. Wants to attend church services again, etc.
I fear that any "change" will be short term at best.
I am not a hurtful man, but I have endured so much pain and abuse I may have to follow through with it, as I related that I'm unwilling to wipe the board clean after stupid drama "incidents" and live separate lives.
Is change possible from a borderline who has been that way for 50 years?
THANKS
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2021, 09:01:33 PM »

Hello! Welcome to the board.  Some great people in here with helpful advice.
While there is always hope, it's rare a BPD is able to change.  It takes years of dedicated therapy.  Search this board and you'll see several stories that include questions similar to yours. 

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.  Suggest you read Splitting by Bill Eddy  (https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254) to give you some heads up on what you will be facing if you choose to separate and divorce.  Be well. CoMo
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2021, 09:44:17 AM »

While there is always hope, it's rare a BPD is able to change.  It takes years of dedicated therapy.

Life is about choices.  While your spouse could change for the better, is she likely to choose to change?

For example, you stated that for the first 2 years it was "pretty good at times".  Evidently she did choose to behave well "at times" back then.  So what changed?

You mentioned you knew her for about 1.5 years before marrying.  So did things change about 6 months into the marriage?  Could it be that she let down her hair, so to speak, after she felt you had become "obligated" and let you see the "real her" without trying to put on her best behavior as often happens early in a relationship?  (We sometimes refer to a confusing combination behavior response called "FOG" — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.)

While she theoretically could improve her perceptions and life behaviors in her later years, the odds are against success unless she seriously applies the counsel of a qualified therapist over an extended period of time.  There are no quick fixes such as her declaring after a few sessions that she has resolved her issues.

And you can't fix her.  Maybe a professional can but not you.  Why?  You stated you've known her for some 8 years and she's behaving worse than when you met her.  I read a member's post a long time ago where the member observed that BPD is a mood and erratic mood disorder most evident in close relationships.  And what is closer than a spouse?  It was explained that the person with BPD (pwBPD) cannot really (or will not consistently) listen to us due to the emotional baggage of the past relationship.

There are some here who have applied communication tools and skills as described here and are still married to their spouse.  But it appears that if the perceptions and poor behaviors do not improve then, yes, the relationship ends.

While we do not want to divorce since we view marriage seriously, sometimes ending the relationship is the only practical option.  And as CoMo mentioned, William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook will become your most valuable resource in choosing an experienced proactive family law attorney and protecting yourself while navigating your way through the mine field of the divorce process.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 09:55:46 AM by ForeverDad » Logged

SPD438

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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2021, 08:44:52 PM »

Thank you ALL for the replies Love it! (click to insert in post)
I will get the book one way or another yes as I believe it could be helpful.
I guess change is a matter of choice. If nothing changes, then nothing changes.
Currently, my wife has been willing to listen to what I have to say. After she was served.
I won't discuss the mechanics of it all with her, but I have a somewhat desire to make her aware that drunks/ substance abusers can recover, while bpd peeps will not/ can not.
And that I fear some time down the road if I were to agree to her begging me not to follow through with divorce proceedings, I would get another 6 weeks of no talking. Period.
I didn't get married to not talk for six weeks.
I feel like relating this to her in some way. I'm sure I'll be met with "I'm sorry" or "I'm sorry I treated you that way in your time of need". It sounds good and part of me wants to believe it, but deep down I can't.
I don't know if she would get it if I explained the past six weeks to her in a way that questions how someone could act towards their spouse like that. And that I'm unwilling to run the risk of incurring that trauma EVER again.
THANKS
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2021, 10:31:51 PM »

Currently, my wife has been willing to listen to what I have to say. After she was served.

After she realized you were serious.  And that you weren't the pushover she expected you to be.

Be forewarned that her willingness to listen may fade all too quickly if she thinks she can maneuver you back into past patterns.

Even if she does behave better going forward, without her applying therapy in her life you will still have to deal with some level of recurring discord.

I won't discuss the mechanics of it all with her, but I have a somewhat desire to make her aware that drunks/ substance abusers can recover, while bpd peeps will not/ can not.

Be careful about assuming blanket statements.  We did not say that pwBPD will not or can not improve long term.  While it may be hard to get precise stats on what the recovery percentages are — for example, the milder cases are very likely underreported — our experience has been that comparatively few are willing or follow through on applying the DBT/CBT therapies.  Or we may be getting the more desperate partners of the more severe cases.
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SPD438

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 05:05:40 AM »

Thank you Forever Dad.
I should retract that statement about will not/ can not. I get it.
Last night as I was on the couch ready to turn in for the night, she approached me and related that she loved me and wanted me to call it off because  otherwise she "would have to spend money to get an attorney" and "it's going to get nasty"
Her daughters, 22 and 25 Y.O. left this home over the past 2 years and took on extreme hardships in the real world to flee her. It is painful for them to be around her for an hour.
Her son stays here part time, as he is a minor who splits time with her and his father.
He is constantly held unaccountable for his actions and receives no disciplinary actions for misbehavior at home or school. The girls were pinned down in their younger years to receive a washing out of the mouth with soap.
This guy here actually battered his mother once. I called his father over to come and get him, relating that I can't have violence like that in my house.
My wife initially was in tears, but shortly thereafter began to twist up the actual events to make it seem like she was the somewhat actual at fault party. Huh?
Screwed up in many ways.
THANKS
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SPD438

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2021, 05:21:27 AM »

Gotta push on...
Yesterday felt pressured to talk due to wife calling me at work numerous times and sending biblical verses through screenshots etc. Told her we would talk when I got home.
Spent the evening isolating in basement after completing outdoor tasks while still light outside.
She comes downstairs and asks if I'm eating dinner-"no thanks".
10 minutes later, comes down again and is stating that I had better cancel the divorce, "or it's going to get real ugly and expensive".
You say you want things to work, but then can make remarks like I just related.
A mean spirited individual once again trying to manipulate.
Telling me I need to let her know whether or not she should seek legal representation.
Twisted.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2021, 05:31:15 PM »

You don't have children together and it's unlikely you adopted her kids.  Therefore, likely there will be no custody issues, typically the toughest aspect of a divorce.

So you ought to be able to limit the divorce process to material aspects.*  A lot of the following may be impacted whether you live in a community property state.  You lawyer can describe the local laws and processes...
  • Separating bank and credit accounts
  • Separating debt obligations
  • Separating vehicle titles, etc
  • Determining whether there is any marital property, how to split it and ensure she can't sabotage you later
  • Vacating your home, probably she can delay much longer than you would estimate (Do you own or rent it?)
  • etc

* Be careful to protect yourself from allegations.  Claims of DV or child abuse may be one of the weapons she just threatened.
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SPD438

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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2021, 10:42:12 PM »

Thank you again for replying Forever Dad.
I've concluded that after 3 years of desperately trying to right this ship, it's time to put on a life vest and jump.
I tried to break it down in simple terms by relating that I am unwilling to be in a relationship where an event ( more like incident) occurs  in it resulting in 2 separate narratives. All the time. Stupid. Doing the same thing over expecting different results...
I'm not a violent person, but I need to ready myself for being accused of being one.
I notified a work supervisor of my intentions today due to my employers "zero tolerance" policy regarding OOP's and DV incidents. Funny as I only needed to get the opening line(s) out relating that if you were to attend an AA meeting and ask the people individually around the tables "what was your poison you indulged in that was ruining your life as well as your loved ones?" One person might say "crack", another "meth", someone else "bourbon whiskey". My wife if she were to be honest at a table would have to answer "I'm addicted to indulging in untreated mental illness". He understood so well he began to tell my story for me, as he was living or had lived a similar nightmare. I will be moved at the workplace to a less stressful assignment for the time being. He said he would pray for me.
Sometime soon I will start wearing a body worn camera inside the residence to record all interaction and be buffering all the time.
Don't think she's going to take it well when I say I'm done talking and maybe you should retain legal counsel.


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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2021, 10:48:12 PM »


* Be careful to protect yourself from allegations.  Claims of DV or child abuse may be one of the weapons she just threatened.

This is good advice form ForeverDad.  Be careful, mindful, and deliberate.  The threat made should be taken seriously.  Is there a way to physically separate?  Stay with family or friends for a while?  Some place where you can relax and not be so wary.  Remember, anything you say or do may be used against you.  Be well.  CoMo
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SPD438

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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2021, 09:48:25 AM »

Whew still trying to rope me in to talk about things  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
I'm sticking to my position as I continually relate that basically it boils down to me being unwilling to waste time on stupid insignificant "incidents" that result in no/ limited discussion afterwards with 2 separate narratives.
Keeps relating that she can/ will change. How can she when her therapist she's seen for over 3 years listens to the garbage she spews about parental and former spousal abuse and advises her to "sever ties with those harmful individuals". Relating garbage about incidents that from what I can tell are "unfounded".
So, you think you can change by seeing this person that suggests "cutting ties" as a coping mechanism?
I'm just going to keep on relating that I fear for my sanity by repeatedly being engaged in these incidents, and that I'm willing to not continue on. I've said to her I've experienced so many traumatic incidents over the past 3 years that I've said to myself "next time it happens..." a million times.
She relates "I can change". I say "I don't think it's possible. You are who you are."
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SPD438

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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2021, 05:22:22 AM »

Still continuing.
I will video record all conversation I have with her unbelievably with her consent no less. Whereas before she was served and I wanted to record "discussions" to show I was the one allegedly "screaming" and "blowing the roof off the house" while I did it. I would say in a soft voice "Hey, I'm going to activate recording so I can see how much of a lunatic I am". She would immediately disengage and end "discussion".
Now I'm able to freely record our "interactions". I'm getting "I miss you, I miss sleeping with you, I miss completing tasks with you, etc." I keep asking her what would be her course of action to initiate change on her behalf. Trying to still relate that people are who they are (I'm crazy also being a recovering drunk/addictive personality) and that I don't see us being right for each other. She keeps relating she can change and wants to go back to the way it was.
I have a copy of the SPLITTING book in my possession.
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SPD438

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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2021, 04:38:49 AM »

Hi bringing this up again.
I keep being "approached" by my bpd wife hoping that I'll rescind the proceedings. She has 5 days to respond.
A day ago I received a phone call from her mother relating that bpd wife related to her on the phone that she wanted to kill herself. I told MIL that I would contact local first responders.
I made it to my residence prior to being connected with emergency services.
I entered the residence and found bpd wife sitting at a computer desk in 2nd bedroom. I asked if she was okay because I had just received a call from "your mother telling me that you might harm yourself". Her response was to immediately fire back with both barrels on 10 relating that "You wouldn't care if I did it anyway. You'll just find a younger bride". WOW. I asked if she wanted me to call an ambulance or if she wanted to be taken anywhere. She declined. She further related that her exact words were "crawl under a rock", not kill herself. That was proven to be a lie as well per verification by MIL.
All this talking she wants to do because she's trying to "save our marriage" always puts her issues on something other than herself. It's the therapists fault, my jobs fault, her not knowing how to communicate with me because of my stressful jobs fault etc. Not once does she utter the words I'm a sick person and I need help. That's all I would accept, but i don't think that's coming anytime soon.
Prior to the suicidal remarks, her mother was calling her out via telephone about some of the major perpetuating LIES she had told over the years in front of myself, her children, etc. Lies that end lifelong friendships/ family ties and cause permanent damage.
Hoping to stay sane.

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Gemsforeyes
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2021, 07:34:58 PM »

Hi there-
I’m really sorry for the amount of abuse and manipulation your BPDw is putting you through.

I believe you’re doing really well all things considered.  Keep your recording going, both on “tape” and in written form, even if this site is the safest place for you to keep your record.  And use details because that could help you in the long run.

Has your W provided her response to the divorce papers yet?  I’m guessing not...

Although difficult, It may serve you well to try and add an extra AA meeting or two each week for the support, or a walk for yourself...anything you find ADDS to your feeling of being further emotionally supported by other people.  Or cleansing, like a good walk in fresh air.  You’ve got to care for yourself.

Not matter what, please come here for strength.  We’ll do what we can to support you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
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alleyesonme
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2021, 10:05:15 PM »

Sorry you're going through this. Given that you never had any children with her, is it possible for you to move out of your place? That way, you can make it much more difficult for her to fabricate allegations against you, and you also make it much more difficult for her to manipulate you by convincing you in person that she's trying to change. Especially without kids involved, I don't see the benefit to you staying in the same residence as her right now. If she somehow does change at some point, you two can always move back in together, but you need to protect yourself physically and legally right now.
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2021, 10:32:19 PM »

I have seen people with BPD change. It is possible. The biggest "success" story I saw was with a 40 year old man who had a life of turmoil, multiple trips to the ER for Suicide and homicidal thoughts, so much drama from the PD itself etc.  Some brilliant therapist who was paying attention actually gave him the correct diagnosis and he accepted it. He finally got himself into an intensive DBT program in which he had DBT skill groups, creative arts therapy, marriage counseling, 1:1 therapy. He did the work and mastered the skills. I would say he is in "recovery" now. he has so much self awareness it's very impressive-his life has improved immensely. Having said that,  he is twice divorced and has abandoned his son, but he himself is doing much better these days. I have seen people improve, but only with tons of support, the right therapy, and the willingness.
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2021, 05:14:05 PM »

Although difficult, It may serve you well to try and add an extra AA meeting or two each week for the support, or a walk for yourself...anything you find ADDS to your feeling of being further emotionally supported by other people.  Or cleansing, like a good walk in fresh air.  You’ve got to care for yourself.

"Put your mask on first".  I second the above.  Find things just for you and get out of the pressure cooker.  Even if for just minutes at a time.  So critical.  Get good sleep, eat well, exercise.  Helps handle stress.  Proceed cautiously but deliberately, and always have a Plan B and safety plans in mind as the crazy starts to go up in volume.  Good luck.  CoMo
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SPD438

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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2021, 05:15:12 PM »

Once again thank you all for the replies. I feel for everyone that has had to/ is currently experiencing something similar.
On Tuesday, my wife called me while I was at work begging me hysterically to call it off. I was almost going to send the police to my residence for a well being check as she was so distraught.
I informed her that I would not be rescinding the petition.
She related that she had a session with a new counsellor in 30 minutes. I told her "ask the counselor what to do", and said I would talk to her later that evening.
She called me awhile later after her session and asked me how much money she makes in wages. I related that I would try and determine that later due to her earnings being put in a separate account for "play money", or savings for both her and her son. I assumed that meant she was told by therapist to respond with council.
Following day I was speaking with my attorney for the first time in a while. I related to her that I was speaking to my wife due to her non stop engaging me in discussions about rescinding the petition. My council advised me to watch what I say if I do speak and also asked me if I wanted to continue down this road in the future, with non stop bs arguments and all of the rest that goes with it. I related that I did not. While we were talking, she received notification that my wife filed an appearance with council. I felt strange/ relieved/ anxious.
So here we are. I think my wife is showing signs of remorse and doesn't want the train she's on to stop rolling.
My view on that is a criminal convicted of a heinous crime can show remorse I think. But at the parole hearing, a decision has to be made.
What an emotional roller coaster.
My wife is not only ailing from a personality disorder but probably autism in some form as well. Makes me feel bad that things are this way now, but I feel I had no other way to go. I am through with the toxicity.
Thank you all for listening.
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SPD438

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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2021, 05:16:50 AM »

"moving forward" God do I hate hearing that out of my wife's mouth.
Just an update. No dates or meetings set yet. Both have attorneys and are waiting for the next step.
I'm still being sent via text/ email links to "Christian boot camp counselling" or "intense therapy couples counselling how to save your marriage" stuff. I know that attending these events are for people experiencing "normal problems" in a marriage. Nowhere during something like that would BPD be addressed. I read/ listen to this garbage and so badly want to relate that we have problems because you kick off stupid, baseless, meritless "incidents" that when "over" result in me at the least having my feelings hurt if not worse. When I wish to address these feelings I experienced, I get shut out. If the "incident" gets discussed in a therapy session, there's 2 separate narratives. I so badly want to relate that THESE are the problems "we" have in our marriage, and that no retreat is going to fix that/ them.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2021, 01:11:33 PM »

Makes me feel bad that things are this way now, but I feel I had no other way to go. I am through with the toxicity.

Most here who ended up divorcing had the same dilemma... we "had no other way to go".  We had attempted all sorts of remedies and approaches over the years yet we still faced that one last solution... end the relationship and get some distance so we could, over time, recover.

Myself, I had been an elder in the congregation.  I stepped down "to care for my family".  Some even met with us both, I recall one who was a first responder telling me from his perspective and experience she needed a psychologist.  Not one criticized me for us eventually divorcing.  There was nothing else left but that.  Sure, we shared a child so I couldn't just end everything, but at least the distance and legal boundaries made it manageable.
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2021, 02:31:27 PM »

Are these attempts efforts to keep you in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt)? CoMo
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SPD438

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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2021, 05:09:16 AM »

Yes CoMo I do believe I'm attempting to be "F.O.G.ged"
That is very applicable terminology that even my AA people appreciate and understand even though we don't use it.
Just posting an update here. Thanks for reading/ responding.
Funny how things have been peaceful due to  IDK holiday in the court system, pandemic, counsel on vacation, etc.
It has been peaceful here because we "don't function as a couple" anymore.
However, given the chance little things "show up" behavior wise as far as my wife goes.
I related prior to the Christmas season that I did not wish to receive any gifts due to the heavy money spent on legal fees thus far.
She purchased gifts for me using her own funds. After I opened them (without her being present), I went to the area she was in and said "I appreciate your generosity and thoughtfulness". Started raising her voice stating "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL ME INTO THE ROOM WHILE YOU OPENED THEM" along with a few other lines.
Sorry, didn't want gifts or money spent on me. This is what you get. An appropriate response in my book, yet something for her to find fault in.
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2022, 06:59:38 AM »

Just keeping this up as a log.
No new progress as of yet. Still quiet relatively speaking but also awkward. Awkward because I feel somewhat uncomfortable probably out of fear of a possible argument/ disagreement if there is any "communication/ discussion" between the 2 of us regarding our "marriage".
She did want to speak about things IDK maybe last week. I sat down at the dining room table and related to her that I would talk in that room, not in a scenario that sees me standing in a hallway while she sits at a computer in a bedroom or me on a recliner in the basement and she kneeling in front of me. IDK why I feel it necessary to change those settings.
During "communication" she related that she was undertaking efforts to "better herself". Once again, her version is probably seeing a counselor and taking self help classes? or something online. I related to her after listening about how "it can work", "I miss you", "I'm trying here" that the issues we have in this marriage are due to unwarranted, baseless, meritless incidents happening that result in my feelings being hurt at the very least. I related to her that if you truly want help, you need to find out "what causes these incidents and where do they come from." She related that somehow the most severe one was "your (my) fault".
Also at issue is her 15 y.o.son who stays with us on a part time basis.
Due to her inability/ desire to parent/ spend time with him, he's devolved into an electronics junkie.
One instance resulted in HIM battering HER over his refusing to put down a PED and get outside to help out with work that needed to get done.
As soon as the "incident" happened, my wife ran upstairs and told her daughter (heard the whole thing) what had happened.
In less than 2 minutes of her giving the narrative, she began to "twist" the story (according to her daughter), lessening the severity of it.
I called the boys father and related to him that his son needed to be picked up on a rocket out of here due to what happened. He complied.
I'll detail more of the fallout from this at a later date.
Reason I bring it up is because I brought it up during a conversation "we" had about why things aren't working.
She basically denied being battered and said the other person in the house "didn't see it", thus should be discredited.
Also it was "my fault" for him being displaced from the home for something like 10 days.
Thank You
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SPD438

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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2022, 07:34:45 PM »

Here's where it's at
I keep trying to be convinced that she "has changed" or "is a different person now" after her spending her own resources on some variant of "counselling", whatever that may be.
I've read it on here before and someone even posted a reply in this thread about moving out because she will keep trying to say she's changed.
So last night, I was somewhat forced into a discussion of sorts. I remained on "flatline" as she displayed anxiety, fear and was elevating her voice. I checked her a couple of times by telling her to lower her voice, or to "step back out of my space".
She now has a theory about how things can be worked out "if we turn a blind eye to the past".
I'm like oh my God. She wants to only focus on the future? I don't really think this is a viable option.
I will speak to my counsellor about this.
I suppose if we had no contact and I moved out it would be easier. Nothing from my attorney-yet.
Peace

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SPD438

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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2022, 09:52:56 AM »

Okay,
Spoke with my counsellor. He advised that wiping the slate clean and "dismissing the past" benefits who/whom?
My mother related that a discussion (between my wife and I) about how I'm unwilling to move an inch without addressing the past (which is what got us to where we are in the first place) and her saying to "forget it", "this point forward", etc would have to be mediated. My counsellor advised he would not be the right one to do it. My mother advised that she would, but my wife rejected that.
Again, last night I got the crazy eyes and rage about how "I'm bettering myself" and if not "with you, someone else". Good grief- last thing I want to think about is someone else. I need peace.
She did relate her attorney sent her some financial information request(s) generated on behalf of my legal representation. I didn't know about it, but whatever.
I cannot wipe all the hurt away in a single motion. I ain't that type of guy.
Matter of fact, I'm just disgusted with her overall "performance" in general. I don't think I could ever go back to how things were the first 2 years of being together. Too much damage has been done.
If the past is forgotten, how will the statement she related in session be addressed? The one where she stated "I'm emotionally detached from this marriage, I've checked out". Pretty damning statement right there. Yeah, I would think that needs to be addressed.
THANKS
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SPD438

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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2022, 07:16:12 AM »

Went out to some secondary property with a fellow recovering alcoholic this past weekend.
Had a great time with this young man. Needed some help with clearing brush from an easement near my property. This dude was pulling out 20 foot downed heavy trees uphill out of the brush by himself, working past dark.
We processed the wood and had a massive fire. As i showed this guy some things on the property that I own, I thought about how displaced from these interests I had become due to my wife's not willing to participate in any doings with these hobbies/ work. She was all cool and the gang with them at one point, but that turned to constant complaining about them as time went on.
Sickening that I was conditioned to abandon hobbies/ interests so that I could stay home and try and "make it better" for her as she kicked stupid stuff off. I learned not to EVER bring up hobby interests that a normal spouse would be happy to do.
Rotten.
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SPD438

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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2022, 05:08:32 AM »

Keeping up
Went to second property past weekend, along with my still current wife.
Took her along because I really felt sorry for her having a 4 day weekend with nothing to do/ no one to visit, etc.
Stated that she was welcome to come with as I may have had a lot of work to do if massive snowfall had occurred.
No major snowfall but still tended to a few things.
She kind of helped out, whereas prior it would have been a sore area with me having to accept her unwillingness to be a participant in routine tasks. She would just complain.
Also tried to bait me into whatever arguing b.s. she could come up with on a couple occasions. I shut them down/ disengaged/ left scene immediately. One of the "discussions" was about how she "has needs" (sexual in nature) and that if they are not fulfilled by me, she will get them from "anyone that shows her interest, I'm at that point"
Whatever, Kid. Reason I won't do that stuff anymore is because I'm still damaged from the trauma of the past that has not/ will not be addressed ever. Until it is, I can't be intimate with you.
I realize any signs of perceived improvement are temporary at best. She is/ always will be the same person deep down inside.
Financial affidavit signed and in hands of attorney.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2022, 01:07:06 PM »

Since you are starting to deal with legal and financial matters, I'd like to mention a related topic... fairness.

We Nice Guys and Nice Gals usually pride ourselves in our sense of fairness.  That's great... except when dealing with people who would be willing to use it against us.  In that case our sense of fairness has a high risk of becoming self-sabotaging.

So before making offers or seeking settlements, be very aware not to be "too fair" or "super fair", that extreme fairness sadly won't be appreciated and can even be turned against you.

Don't confuse this with being a good negotiator.  While mediation attempts or settlement conferences can often fail, these are actually negotiations.  Sometimes it is wise to "have some cards up your sleeve", so to speak.  In negotiation we are using whatever leverage we have to arrive at a decent outcome, or sometimes a "less bad" outcome.  Listen to your lawyer's advice, also time-tested strategies and perspectives we share with you that we in peer support collectively learned over the years.

A general rule of thumb is that if your goal is to repair a relationship then important stuff should be shared to rebuild trust.  However, when you recognize a relationship has failed then you share only the necessary information.  Regarding a divorce with children, then you limit what you share, typically to the required legal disclosures and appropriate information about the children, exchanges, etc.  Anything more invites complications.

A corollary to the fairness and sharing principles is this:  You have a right to privacy and confidential matters.  If you consult a lawyer then that is confidential, your spouse does not have a right to pry.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 01:12:56 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

SPD438

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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2022, 05:09:10 PM »

Up with the latest.
Things have been moving forward with the dissolution.
I keep hearing "I've changed", "I go to al-anon", "I'm paying out of my own pocket for counselling", etc.
But her actions indicate her behavior has not changed.
I was leaving for an out of town trip to my folks' 2nd home where my father and I would be tackling some difficult mechanical repairs to an ancient vehicle. I related to her that if there was any food in the refrigerator that was going to spoil, please set it out so I can take it (I despise waste). She responded "It's all your food in the fridge anyway so do what you want with it I don't care".
2 days later I'm at the folks' place and she calls me to do a 3 way conversation with her therapist (my guy said it was okay to participate). I simply related a few incidents that had occurred over the past 3 to 4 years, punctuating them with "we don't need crisis counselling intervention, marriage saving workshops, problem solving techniques, etc. What needs to be done is looking at what the cause is to these "incidents" that arise that are stupid, meaningless, baseless and senseless that occur between "us" that puts the "relationship" on uneven ground/ stormy seas. Incidents that result in my feelings being hurt at the least, me being battered at the worst. And when/ if it is possible to have a discussion about said incidents, there are 2 separate narratives. What is the cause of these "incidents"?
Counseller asked my wife if she knew what I was talking about. She related that she "had no idea".
I believe that to be a truthful statement.
You can say your changing, but actions indicate otherwise.
Peace
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kells76
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2022, 05:51:32 PM »

Excerpt
her actions indicate her behavior has not changed.

It's always important to compare what someone says they will do with what the actually end up doing (or not doing), just as you are.

Then we get to decide how much of that we can handle in our lives, given that the person likely won't change -- they will probably always be someone whose words often don't match their actions.

With some people, based on the relationship we have, we can "radically accept" that and maintain the same sort of relationship -- a coworker, extended family member, acquaintance, etc. You learn to "just know" that Joe says he'll meet you for beer but "always has something come up last minute". Or that Chris and Jamie "promise to get their parts of the project in early" but track record indicates you should plan on them not contributing.

When it's a closer relationship, like a spouse, it can be more difficult to decide how much of that we can handle.

Will be interested to hear what you want for your life as you keep having these experiences (like in counseling).
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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2022, 11:19:45 PM »

To the top.
Am currently experiencing extreme, difficult to handle emotions. I feel so bad for what is going to happen. Yet I shouldn't.
I truly feel so bad for my wife that she will have to go out into the real world, get a full time job and function as a productive member of society. Things she has NEVER had to do or even consider doing.
Bad in a sense because she won't even go visit with her daughter 1000 miles away due to her anxiety/ inability to schedule a flight and depart on it by herself.
I guess these unfortunates make it through life "on the backs of others".
I wonder where are the life skills she should have attained throughout her formative years?
I even went so far to explain it to my therapist relating that maybe "she was my cross to bear". He related that she was not, and that it would be extremely unfair and unhealthy to function this way for the next 25-30 years. I related that I certainly would not want that.
I think its going to start getting a bit rough until things are finalized. Rough in the sense that I'll be portrayed somewhat as an "abusive" man that won't heed her requests to reconcile, see how she's changed, etc.
I just try to keep it civil. I do not engage in unnecessary communications.
Even one of her daughters related that she needs to go and hook up with a retired old "sugar daddy" that could devote all of his time/energy to listening to her non-stop BS in exchange for whatever.
Therapist advises to keep moving and ixnay the attempts she makes to pull me back in due to a real questionable motive as to why she keeps trying. I don't think its out of love for me. I really think she wants to be taken care of.
Hard to accept.
Peace
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BigOof
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2022, 06:00:18 AM »

Excerpt
I truly feel so bad for my wife that she will have to go out into the real world, get a full-time job, and function as a productive member of society. Things she has NEVER had to do or even consider doing.

I doubt it. She'll have someone caretake her in a few months.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2022, 12:57:50 PM »

I truly feel so bad for my wife that she will have to go out into the real world, get a full time job and function as a productive member of society. Things she has NEVER had to do or even consider doing.

You've been married for about 7 years.  Your perspective is fooling you, she has two grown daughters and a minor son who is shared between parents.  So before you met her, she never had any support from anyone?  Your logic knows that to be untrue.

She's a grown woman, an adult.  Her daughters have left and are living their own lives.  Probably soon her son will too.  If she were a male I'd quip, "she needs to man up and face life."  But she's female and it's tugging at your heart strings.  We get it.  But you can't save her from herself.  Maybe an emotionally detached therapist (no emotional past baggage) could guide her towards a measure of recovery... but that's on her, you can't do it for her.

Have you read the handouts of Dr Joe Carver, a retired clinical psychologist?  His first handout article describes the controllers, manipulators, abusers, users and losers that can attach themselves to us in our lives.  "Poor helpless me, I'm a victim, save me from myself."
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SPD438

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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2022, 04:51:19 AM »

Good Day,
I'm amazed how much I learn by being on this site. I may not respond to everything I see on it, but believe me I take it all in.
This situation here is kind of taking awhile to dissolve/ seek dissolution. I filed November of last year.
Anyhow I believe there will be a time I will have to exit my own home and stay with my folks due to my being sick and tired of her trying to get back together. It plays on my emotions being under the same roof. I feel bad but know this is how things must go.
Even the minimal interaction we have I would call "grating" to me. She is laden with anxiety, and it can be depressing/ contagious to be around. I know now that this "is truly who she really is", and that I will not chnge/ make her better.
THANKS
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