What exactly is abuse?

[eaglestar]

I've read that there are many different kinds of abuse -- physical, verbal, financial. What if a person doesn't name call, doesn't hit, but is extremely denigrating, extremely jealous, and controlling?  

Per my father's report, my mother is keeping a list of everything he's ever done wrong and lists off his mistakes to him every morning, first thing, throughout the day, and at dinner.  She is obsessed with him having a cognitive impairment
(which I doubt, due to at least one qualified physician's conclusion that there was none).  She is extremely controlling of his time, and complains or makes passive-aggressive comments when he leaves for things that she doesn't approve of, like his prayer group.
Throughout their entire relationship, she has been extremely jealous and paranoid about any contact he has with other women, even benign contact.  She also tells others that my father has had inappropriate contact with other women when as far as I can determine, this isn't true. I was a witness to one of these supposed inappropriate contacts: a recently widowed neighbor needed help with some heavy lifting and mentioned her need when we were taking a walk together. I offered our help and when my mother found out, she yelled at my father, demanded he never speak to the woman again, and went over to the neighbor's house and demanded that she never have contact with my father again. I could go on for hours about her behavior toward him. She, of course, believes that she is the victim of his abuse and tells others that he verbally abuses her. In reality, from what I can gather, I think he gets to a breaking point and snaps back at her. It is like she is goading him to fulfill an "abusive" role. Is that a thing? Is this a BPD behavior? Provoking "abuse"?

So my question is: is this some form of abuse? It seems to be really wearing down his spirit.

[Couscous]

Your father can take a look at the Survivor to Thriver sticky and decide how he wishes to proceed if he feels that his relationship with your mother is abusive.

Here are their recommendations:

If you are being hit, forced to have sex, or criticized or verbally abused, you must take steps to stop this very real and potentially dangerous pattern. If you are being dominated in one or more destructive ways, you should seek professional help to figure out how to rectify or leave the relationship or insist that your partner get help to eliminate the abusive behavior.

[eaglestar]

Your father can take a look at the Survivor to Thriver sticky and decide how he wishes to proceed if he feels that his relationship with your mother is abusive.

I will share this with him.  I think he is probably too proud to admit it's abusive, if it fits that category. I suppose my question was more whether one BPD behavior is goading/ coercing others to be mean/ abusive toward them, and whether that in itself could be considered abuse.

[Flossy]

If one person targets another person consistently and that causes the other person harm in any way, that is abuse.

If your mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder then that is Narcissistic Abuse.

I don't know if there is a commonly used title for the kind of abuse that pw BPD do to others. All I know is that the toxic results on my health caused by having anyone with BPD in my life is caused by their abuse.

Abuse of the truth, my basic human rights, the law, abuse of alcohol, drugs and sex.

That's enough for me. If it doesn't have an official title to report it, if your Dad is elderly or frail it could be classed as Elder Abuse.

I am not sure if I covered the reason why you are asking yourself that question. Let me know.

[HappyChappy]

I think he gets to a breaking point and snaps back at her. It is like she is goading him to fulfill an "abusive" role. Is that a thing? Is this a BPD behavior? Provoking "abuse"?

So my question is: is this some form of abuse? It seems to be really wearing down his spirit.

Death by a thousand cuts, i.e. trolling, constant critisum etc... is considered abuse. The cumulative effect of constant denigration or false accusations is very bad for our mental health. In sevear cases it can cause CPTSD and it’s also how cults groom and war propaganda works, so proven to be effective. That said we all nag and criticise so it’s a question of degree, only you know your parent well enough to assess that. However if your father is getting to breaking point some sort of talking therapy might help diagnosis and heal ?

Someone with BPD fears abandonment and will project blame back onto their partner – your account suggests your mother is doing both. It is also narcisstic to manufacture blame, by goading or trolling, until the other person loses their patience.  It’s a way of manufacturing a drama triangle, with your father as a victim and you as the rescuer ? BPD shares symptoms with many other ailments, but a defining element is a lack of empathy and self serving approach to most things, so they will manipulate anyone to get what they want. This will be more apparent in their immediate family, so how have your parent’s behaviour effected you do you think ?

I would say getting your father help will be more fruitful than diagnosing your mother currently. Someone with BPD will deny any and all blame, plus abuse is damaging whatever the reason behind it. Also your father can give a Therapist far more detailed information. Feel free to post more on here.

[Methuen]

I've read that there are many different kinds of abuse -- physical, verbal, financial. What if a person doesn't name call, doesn't hit, but is extremely denigrating, extremely jealous, and  controlling?

You have mentioned physical, verbal and financial abuse.  There is also emotional abuse.  It sounds like this is what you are describing.  

I support others here in saying that the best way you could support your dad would be to help him find a Counsellor/therapist, and offer to take him to that first appointment, if he wants it.  He could also speak to the religious leader of his church/synagogue/mosque, but it can be difficult to tell the truth to someone you know.  Sometimes its easier to speak the truth to someone you dont know.

Trying to talk to your mother/his wife is likely to add fuel to the fire and make things even worse..

Her behavior is concerning.  For example, disapproving of his going to prayer group is her way of isolating him from others.  This puts him under her control.  

Your story of him offering to help the neighbour lady and her reaction of going over there and telling her to stay away from her husband is familiar.  She is jealous.  This comes from a fear of losing your dad.  Sadly, her behavior of isolating him from the neighbour due to jealousy is another symptom of her own mental problem.  

Your mom isn’t going to change.  The best thing you can do is get your dad help, if he is willing.  A good counsellor can definitely help him.  

This is the route so many of us on this forum have taken.  We are the ones getting the help.  There are lots of tools available to learn to manage a bpd relationship.  That is the good news.

[Couscous]

How much is your mother actually succeeding in controlling your father though, as opposed to just trying to? Is he afraid of her? If your dad just ignores your mother does whatever he wants, and doesn't "obey" her dictates then I would argue that her behavior, while certainly a nuisance, probably isn't having much in the way of serious negative impact on him. What is more likely is that he is co-dependent, and his own motivations and is getting some kind of payoff by remaining in the marriage.

I think the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist would be a good starting place for your father.

[eaglestar]

So many helpful comments. Thank you!

A recurring question/litmus test seems to be whether my mother is causing my father harm.  I think he is very proud and doesn't want to appear weak, so he would be loathe to admit to anyone that she is wearing him down.  But he did admit this to me, and said at one point "I'm not sure how much longer I can take this."  The other day he told me that he didn't know how he would be able to function if he didn't have me to talk to.  The thing is, we do spend some time talking about their relationship but we spend an equal or greater amount of time talking about random other things that interest him.  I think our conversations provide stress relief more than they provide any kind of direct marital support or solutions.  That he needs such emotional support tells me that he is hurting emotionally, which seems to mean that this is emotional abuse.

If one person targets another person consistently and that causes the other person harm in any way, that is abuse. ...

I am not sure if I covered the reason why you are asking yourself that question. Let me know.

I do think what she does can at least be considered harassment under that definition--consistently targeting a person and causing harm.  I believe the harm is emotional, as others have mentioned, and that constitutes emotional abuse.  Something that I didn't really think about before my recent research into all of this.  Thank you!

Death by a thousand cuts, i.e. trolling, constant critisum etc... is considered abuse. The cumulative effect of constant denigration or false accusations is very bad for our mental health. In sevear cases it can cause CPTSD and it’s also how cults groom and war propaganda works, so proven to be effective. ...if your father is getting to breaking point some sort of talking therapy might help diagnosis and heal ?

Yes.  After reading through these answers, I think I may be able to suggest therapy to him as a solution.  He has already told me he's willing to go to couple's therapy.  Perhaps he would be willing to get some individual therapy as well.

Someone with BPD fears abandonment and will project blame back onto their partner – your account suggests your mother is doing both. It is also narcisstic to manufacture blame, by goading or trolling, until the other person loses their patience.  It’s a way of manufacturing a drama triangle, with your father as a victim and you as the rescuer ?

So interesting!  I never thought that my mother could be manufacturing a Karpman triangle with my *father* as the victim.  I always thought that being the victim was a core part of her identity.  It never occurred to me that she is setting herself up to be the persecutor...perhaps out of self-loathing?  I'm not really sure why she would do that.

That said, when I was 12 years old I defended him.  I don't remember what they were fighting about, but she said something against him while we were alone in the car together, and I said something along the lines of "have you considered that maybe Dad is right?"  O.M.G.  Open the flood gates, release the hounds, blow the ballasts, fire at will!  She tore into me like I had just uttered the most evil words imaginable.  She ended with "you're just like him!  Act like that and no one will ever love you!"  I was sobbing by the time we got to where we were going, and then we went into the store and she wouldn't let me stay in the car.  She behaved in the store like everything was normal.  I learned right then and there that honest questioning of her being 'right' in these arguments Would. Not. Be. Tolerated.

So...if she's setting herself up to be the persecutor and me the rescuer, it seems odd that she would react in that way when I 'rescue.'  But I don't presume to understand this in its entirety yet.  I'm pretty new to investigating all of this.

BPD shares symptoms with many other ailments, but a defining element is a lack of empathy and self serving approach to most things, so they will manipulate anyone to get what they want. This will be more apparent in their immediate family, so how have your parent’s behaviour effected you do you think ?

I don't know how it's affected me, to be completely honest.  I haven't paused long enough in life to think about my emotional health.  I have just kind of plowed through, focusing on work, my own marriage, having a child, etc.  I mentioned on one of these posts that I don't know what my "inner child" needs from my mother and it seems kind of silly to even write that sentence.  It may be useful to explore this further.  Perhaps that is why I'm on this site.  It is my first attempt at opening that box.  And that goes into my reply to...

The best thing you can do is get your dad help, if he is willing.  A good counsellor can definitely help him. 

This is the route so many of us on this forum have taken.  We are the ones getting the help.  There are lots of tools available to learn to manage a bpd relationship.  That is the good news.

After reading these replies, that's exactly what I think he needs.  Tools to improve his mental health.  You're probably right in that my mother will not change.  But if he wants to remain in the relationship, he will need to understand how to manage it.  Thank you!

How much is your mother actually succeeding in controlling your father though, as opposed to just trying to? Is he afraid of her? If your dad just ignores your mother does whatever he wants, and doesn't "obey" her dictates then I would argue that her behavior, while certainly a nuisance, probably isn't having much in the way of serious negative impact on him. What is more likely is that he is co-dependent, and his own motivations and is getting some kind of payoff by remaining in the marriage.

I think the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist would be a good starting place for your father.

I think she does a fairly good job of controlling him in some ways--he changes his behavior to avoid an outburst.  He is afraid of her outbursts.  While she will say he just does whatever he wants (ie, he still goes to prayer group), I see it as him very selectively deciding what he can and can't get away with.  He loves to golf.  I don't think he's golfed in over a year, because he would probably rather go to prayer group and he has to carefully select what he participates in to prevent an outburst.  He may have some co-dependent tendencies.  This is the first I've considered that.  I don't honestly know.  But I will try to get him that book.

Part of the control issue is that she has 100% control over the finances and watches the credit card statements and cash flow like a hawk. If he spends money on a book like that, she will know.  We recently discovered that the local library has an app where you can read books in an eBook viewer.  One of the things they fought about over 10 years ago was that he wanted to have his own passwords, and she went ballistic over this, but ultimately he did not change his password to something she knew.  So he could read a book that way without her knowing.

[Couscous]

I definitely agree that professional guidance is warranted in this situation, with the first goal being that your father establish some level of financial independence so that he can have more autonomy in his life and not have to rely on you to be secretly paying for things. 

[Notwendy]

I understand the difficulty in comprehending the idea of abuse- unless it is so obvious one can not deny it. If I mentioned to anyone that my parents were abusive, they'd think I was an ungrateful child- because they ( my father mainly) were also very good to their children and provided for us well. We were not wealthy but we grew up in a comfortable home, had our needs met. At school, we looked like children from a loving home, seemed happy, did well in school. There was never a mark or bruise, nobody hit us, we had healthy food to eat.

Looking outside at abusive relationships, people often wonder- why doesn't the abused person just leave? Because abuse is cyclic, with times where the abusive person is caring and loving. It's a form of intermittent reinforcement- where the abuse person sometimes gets the love and attention they look for- the good partner appears. Also I don't think abuse is always premeditated. Sometimes the abuser seems to want to try to stop, they promise it will. This cycle is addictive- it registers strong emotions- strong neurotransmitters that mimic drugs- Both abused and abuser become "addicted" to the cycle.

I also think we avoid considering abuse due to the fact that our families are the "normal" we grew up with- which makes abuse something that can get passed from generation to generation. I don't have proof, but I suspect my BPD mother was abused- by someone else in her circle of relatives as she seems to behave as if she was. I don't know who that person might be, but from her behavior, I suspect someone did. I also think we avoid the idea of abuse because we don't want to blame or make false accusations, but if we are looking at this idea for our own personal growth, not to blame, then it can be helpful.

As a teen, my mother blamed me for her behavior and the issues between my parents. I idolized my father and felt more bonded to him. I thought my mother was the disordered one and he just had to put up with the situation. After I left home for college, I assumed they'd be happier, that things were OK with them, since if it was because of me, I wasn't living there all the time.

Looking back, I see how even that is emotionally abusive- to blame a child for the parents' issues. I was not a difficult teen. I know all teens can be moody and challenging at times but that doesn't cause marital discord and the teen is not to blame. Once I graduated high school, I knew I did not want to move back home.

After I got married and had my own children, BPD mother seemed to be on good behavior when she and my father visited. One safeguard was that I would not leave her alone with my kids, but she and my father always visited together and I trusted him. It was interesting to see the interactions from an adult perspective. My father was actively engaging them at their level, playing games with them, reading stories. My mother was more of a remote observer.

Some time later, my father's health declined and I went to help out. Since Dad was in the hospital, I was alone with BPD mom in the house for an extended time for the first time since I left home. All the other visits, someone else was with me, either my own family or Dad. Understandably, she was stressed from the situation, but the behavior I saw when nobody else was around was extreme. I then realized the full extent of her mental disorder, and knew, it was never anyone's fault that she is this way. I also could see how my father's emotional caretaking and enabling made her appear more stable than she is.

When he was home, I also observed her verbal and emotional abuse of him, and it was a shock to me to see it. I called social services to see what I could do, but he'd never admit to it. A lot of it is similar to what you describe- controlling him. She read his email, she listened in on phone calls. If we were out, she'd call him every few minutes to ask where he was, demanding he'd come home immediately. If I bought him a treat and put it in her fridge, she'd throw it away. We would have to hide them from her if we wanted him to have them. And the verbal insults, the screaming at him.

A local DV shelter was selling t shirts as a fund raiser that stated "love doesn't hurt". This resonated with me. If I said something about my mother, people would say " don't be silly, your parents love you".  In an abusive situation, love may be there, but it also comes with hurtful behavior in different forms.

[Methuen]

Part of the control issue is that she has 100% control over the finances and watches the credit card statements and cash flow like a hawk. If he spends money on a book like that, she will know.  We recently discovered that the local library has an app where you can read books in an eBook viewer.  One of the things they fought about over 10 years ago was that he wanted to have his own passwords, and she went ballistic over this, but ultimately he did not change his password to something she knew.  So he could read a book that way without her knowing.

Healthy relationships are based on characteristics such as mutual respect, trust, honesty, and open lines of communication.  I get the sense these that these are replaced by contrl, jealousy, and fear of reprisal in your parents’ relationship.  By watching the credit card statements, she knows his activities.  In a healthy relationship he shouldn’t have to give up his golf, or struggle to keep his own password.  A healthy partner should have no problem supporting their partner to enjoy their own interests.  In fact, she could be encouraging him to golf more to improve his game.  That he has given it up is a red flag for an unhealthy relationship.  It sounds like your mom contrls the finances which is another red flag.  This could affect his social interactions with his male friends eg whether he coffees or golfs with his friends.  So the financial abuse works in tandem with emotional abuse because it can have the effect of isolating him from his friends, and leaving him more under her control. 

The thing is, the more he gives (as she wears him down), the more she will take.  It can be a slow erosion, until he starts to feel like he is losing himself, as she molds him to be more under her control.

He should be able to golf.  He should be able to read.  He should be able to be himself without having to justify, defend, argue, or explain his every move, all of which would invalidate her and trigger a conflict. 

When my dad had already been diagnosed with Lewy Bodies ( a type of dementia), he asked me to take him to see his Dr.  He wanted me to join him in the consultation room. He shared his story of how my mom was treating him, and the Dr said “it sounds like BPD.  Why don’t you just leave?”   His Dr was new and young and inexperienced.  My dad loved my mom, and his personal values about marriage would not have allowed him to walk away.  The comment wasn’t helpful.  Better would have beennto suggest talking to a T.  I could have gone with him and leared tools for managing BPD in a relationship 15 years earlier. 

Couple’s therapy is likely to be less helpful than individual therapy for a variety of reasons.  IMHO it would be most helpful for your dad to start with individual counselling (by someone experienced with BPD relationships), and once he’s had a chance to develop a toolbox, to consider moving to couples therapy.  Managing a bpd relationship with new tools is a process that takes time. 

Just my thoughts. 

[beatricex]

hi eaglestar,
I remember thinking, sometime when I was in my 20's, "I wish there was a device I could buy that I could insert into my ear that would Turn Off the sound of my mother's voice."  I googled it, of course.  No such device existed.

Of course I did this because as you've described, the constant baiting by a person with severe BPD or NPD is highly annoying.  My dad developed a good case of selective hearing.  That's when he couldn't hear anything my mother said.  But if I said something to him very very quietly, wow he's ears worked perfectly.

Today my Dad is 76 and he wears hearing aids.  He can actually turn down the sound of my Mom's voice, and he does so ALL the time! 

By the way, I could never understand why my Dad stayed either, and my BPD Mom controls all the money too.  It's at the point where they have none, she also decided to spend it all some time ago.  I don't think he can leave.

b

[GaGrl]

I remember thinking, sometime when I was in my 20's, "I wish there was a device I could buy that I could insert into my ear that would Turn Off the sound of my mother's voice."  I googled it, of course.  No such device existed.

...

Today my Dad is 76 and he wears hearing aids.  He can actually turn down the sound of my Mom's voice, and he does so ALL the time! 

I'm laughing out loud! My grandfather had Me United's Syndrome and was partially deaf. He wore the old-fashioned hearing aids with the control on a strap around his neck. One of my earliest memories on visits to my grandparents was my grandad reaching into his shirt front to turn down his hearing aid, while my uBPD/NPD steps grandmother hammered in the background.  Too funny!

[beatricex]

ha ha, at least we can find the humor in it now GaGrl

I found this eaglestar, which may or may not apply.  I like that it's easy to read and remember.  I'm not sure if what your mom is doing to your dad can be considered "gaslighting abuse" but it sure seems he should be questioning her motive (to make him mad).

from, https://www.northpointrecovery.com/blog/gaslighting-examples-effects-confront-abuse/

A lot of people who are being gaslighted do not realize it. These individuals are actually victims of gaslighting emotional abuse, which can be incredibly psychologically damaging. You might be a victim if you:

Find that you frequently second-guess yourself on just about everything.
Find yourself asking yourself if you are too sensitive several times a day.
Find that you often feel confused or crazy.
Find that you are constantly apologizing to people when there is no need to.
Feel unhappy, even though there are good things happening in your life.
Find yourself making excuses for your partner’s behavior.
Withhold information from people so that you can avoid having to make excuses.
Feel as though there is something wrong, but you cannot put your finger on what it is.

[eaglestar]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies!  My father started to question the whole cognitive impairment thing the other day . He asked me "have you ever heard of Munchausen Syndrome?" I told him I had -- it usually affects children but it's when a controlling parent/ caregiver imagines their charge is sick and can even go as far as to make them sick by poisoning. I don't think that's what my mother is doing, but I do think that she believes my father is more impaired than he is and that his response at first was to believe her, but now he's wondering if that was correct.

The hearing aid thing is funny!

In a healthy relationship he shouldn’t have to give up his golf, or struggle to keep his own password.  A healthy partner should have no problem supporting their partner to enjoy their own interests.  In fact, she could be encouraging him to golf more to improve his game.  That he has given it up is a red flag for an unhealthy relationship.  It sounds like your mom contrls the finances which is another red flag.  This could affect his social interactions with his male friends eg whether he coffees or golfs with his friends.  So the financial abuse works in tandem with emotional abuse because it can have the effect of isolating him from his friends, and leaving him more under her control. 

The thing is, the more he gives (as she wears him down), the more she will take.  It can be a slow erosion, until he starts to feel like he is losing himself, as she molds him to be more under her control.

He should be able to golf.  He should be able to read.  He should be able to be himself without having to justify, defend, argue, or explain his every move, all of which would invalidate her and trigger a conflict. 

This rings true and made me sad, because I think of all the things he's talked about wanting to do over the years and has never been able to. He cites my mother as the reason. For instance, he talked about traveling when he retired. He can't travel because my mother refuses to leave the house for any reason other than the hair dresser, church, the grocery store, or the occasional dinner out. He refers to this occasionally in conversation by saying something like "do you remember seeing XYZ place when you were a kid? We had a lot of fun, did this and that... it would be great to go back, but that probably can't happen."  And then he'll quickly change the subject.  He talked about getting an RV at one point. When I was visiting he and I were out doing some errand, and he said "I want to make one more stop." We went to an RV dealer and saw several models. He was like a kid in a candy store! When we got in the car I asked him "are you going to get an RV?" He responded with a little snort and said "no, but I can dream." Then, later on, he mentioned to me while we were alone "if I got an RV then your mother could stay in the RV while we travel. We could go just about anywhere in the US. We could even go up to Canada. We haven't been there since you were seven." I agreed that it was a good idea. I don't think he ever even brought it up to my mother.

Individual therapy is probably the best option for him. I don't know if my mother is ever going to have a happy life but my father clearly wants to be happy.

[Couscous]

Eaglestar, I really feel for your dad but I do have to wonder if there might be a possibility that he is, unconsciously, playing a game called, “If it weren’t for you.”

https://sites.google.com/site/worldeveryone/home/ta-games

[Methuen]

I think of all the things he's talked about wanting to do over the years and has never been able to. He cites my mother as the reason. For instance, he talked about traveling when he retired. He can't travel because my mother refuses to leave the house for any reason other than the hair dresser, church, the grocery store, or the occasional dinner out.

What if he used his credit card to pay for a trip to go by himself, or another travelling companion?  This is not a crazy idea.  I have friends who travelvwith their spouse, but also with other friends.  Both are “normal”, and ok to do.

Your dad is probably going to have to find his voice and set some boundaries.  A healthy marriage is based on mutual decision making and give and take.  Not one person telling the other what can and can’t happen,  or making all the decisions for both of them. Her behavior shows a lackbof respect for his needs and wants.   Setting boundaries shakes all this up, and can lead to some worsened push back from her.  But his alternative is losing himself to her, and not having his own needs and wants met.

Is he interested in getting professional support to move all this forward?

[eaglestar]

I know if he used the credit card and did anything without her express permission then she would pull the cognitive impairment card, call my brother and tell him that he's spending money extravagantly, and likely go behind his back and cancel the trip. Recently she enlisted my brother's help in firing someone who works for them and hiring another person behind his back because the person who worked for them was charging them more than the neighbor. My father told me that he knew this and didn't care because it wasn't that much and he thought the worker did a good job, was a good person, and even provided some level of friendship/ company when they visited the home. My father felt totally betrayed that my brother would involve himself in this without talking to my father first. My brother told me that he was concerned that my father was not making good decisions with money because of this situation, as well as two others my mother had told him about. One amounted to a less than $50 donation to something (my brother didn't know the amount was so small until he talked to my father, and he didn't talk to my father until I asked him to do so). So she really does control every penny, and is now enlisting my brother's help in policing the cash.

But that said, it is possible that he is playing the "if it weren't for you" game that Couscous suggested. That's not outside the realm of possibility.

Methuen is right, he needs to find his voice and set boundaries. I think a counselor would absolutely help him do this and I have encouraged him to see one. I think he's willing.

Where that all leaves me, I suppose, is trying to figure out what constitutes a healthy relationship where my son can enjoy visits with his Grandpa. My mother made a little fuss about him coming to see us, but not as much as she would have if she had not been the one to cancel our trip to see them. I don't know if she'll let him travel again to see us. I hope once we establish a precedent that this is an acceptable thing for him to do, it will be easy to accomplish. Ultimately, I do want a relationship for my son and mother, but from what I'm learning on here, it may not be possible.

[Notwendy]

This seems like emotional abuse to me. There were similar dynamics between my parents. If I asked my father for anything- even something small- his answer was "did you ask your mother first?" Looking back, I think - what I asked for as a kid was under $5 and Dad, ( who earned the income and could easily afford this) wasn't even allowed to say "sure" on his own.

In his elder years, BPD mom would also fire some home health personnel- for whatever reason- she'd find one. She would also listen in on any visits from the home health nurse. If I called, and Dad answered, she'd listen in on the phone extension. Sometimes I would call and speak to him when he picked up first. Then we'd hear her get on the extension and he'd hang up quickly.

Travel? Even if he went to the supermarket she'd call him every few minutes.

However, to make any changes-he'd have to do this. If we tried to intervene, it would take us right into the Karpman triangle. Even if he wanted change, it would be very difficult for him to not comply with her wishes- and I think he just wanted to keep some semblance of peace.

We see this from the outside - we aren't living there in the house with the BPD parent.

I did visit with the kids. They formed their own relationship with my father. My mother was there too but the kids, even when small, could sense a difference between how my parents interacted with them. Dad interacted with them on their level- played games with them, read books to them. The relationships formed according to the interactions. I would not ever leave my children unsupervised with my mother- but visits were with both of them. 

[Methuen]

I know if he used the credit card and did anything without her express permission then she would pull the cognitive impairment card, call my brother and tell him that he's spending money extravagantly, and likely go behind his back and cancel the trip….One amounted to a less than $50 donation to something (my brother didn't know the amount was so small until he talked to my father, and he didn't talk to my father until I asked him to do so). So she really does control every penny, and is now enlisting my brother's help in policing the cash.

It sounds like she is using the “cognitive impairment card” as leverage to control him.  Shes using the term “cognitive impairment “ instead of “demented” but they mean the same thing. It’s name calling.   To be blunt, it is cruel to keep telling someone they are cognitively impaired when they are not.  It is death by a thousand cuts to a person’s self esteem over time.  It’s also emotional abuse.  Over time, that will erode a person’s sense of self and autonomy.  He’s being treated like her doormat.  He will have to do some hard work to decide if he’s willing to participate like that for the rest of his life.

Does your brother see how he is being used by his  mom?  Does he feel any remorse in participating with her against his father (before talking to his dad and getting the facts)?  Did it bother him afterwards that he had done that?  Does he have any desire to stop being her flying monkey, or is he getting something back for doing this, such as her approval?  Can he see he’s being manipulated by her to take actions against his own father?

Like NW says, people will choose to stay in the relationship because they are co-dependent.  There lots of similar stories on this board.  But I also know a few couples who actually split up in their seventies.  My mother’s sister had a mental illness which could have been BPD or something else.  Her husband finally had enough and left her when they were in their seventies.  In another example, a couple in their seventies ( a different aunts in-laws) legally separated.  So, it can happen in my experience.

Counselling could also possibly help your dad to change the dynamic of the relationship if he is desiring of that.  He would probably need a lot of support to do this.

Good for your dad for going to see his Dr.  It sounds like the doctor told him he has no cognitive impairment.  Good for him for taking that action.

[Couscous]

Where that all leaves me, I suppose, is trying to figure out what constitutes a healthy relationship where my son can enjoy visits with his Grandpa. My mother made a little fuss about him coming to see us, but not as much as she would have if she had not been the one to cancel our trip to see them. I don't know if she'll let him travel again to see us. I hope once we establish a precedent that this is an acceptable thing for him to do, it will be easy to accomplish. Ultimately, I do want a relationship for my son and mother, but from what I'm learning on here, it may not be possible.

If I am not mistaken about this, and your mother hasn't met your son yet, then it seems to me that she has made it clear that there is no interest on her part in having a relationship with him. And this is something you will probably need some time to process and grieve.

If your father is able to stand his ground and keep visiting you alone that would probably be ideal. But if not, it could still be doable for you to visit your parents. In Children of the Self-absorbed 3rd Edition, Nina Brown has some good advice on how to protect one's children from a toxic grandparent.  She doesn't mention specifically that not staying in their house during visits is mandatory, but I think this is probably obvious to her readers. My husband (golden child of a highly narcissistic mother) and I are going as far as only meeting up with his parents at a vacation spot in order to have an excuse to not spend any time under their roof, and are going to limit the visit to just a few days instead of the usual week we have done in the past. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi eaglestar,

I've been thinking on your question for a bit now, pondering the best response. Lots of great thoughts shared with you from the other posters.

When I first began in T, my T asked me if I thought I had been abused as a child. I said no, that I had just done bad things or things that were wrong that got me into trouble. But he had started me to thinking, and over the next few weeks I asked him and some of my close friends how they'd define abuse. I got a lot of answers, similar but each a little different. A common theme amongst all of them was that abuse is when one person wants to control the other and tries hard through actions or words to put that control into place.

The term 'abuse' is used a lot these days. We understand it here at the BPD site quite well, but it's often not a well received word in other realms. It doesn't change the fact that a behavior may be abusive even if we don't use the word abuse. In the past few years there has been a lot more focus on the term 'emeotional abuse' and trying to put a finger on what that really is.

I've found it a lot easier to use the term toxic behavior when I describe my marriage. Was it abusive? Definitely, but toxic fits well for me too. Ask if the environment is one in which a person can thrive and grow, being encouraged to be the best person they can be to fulfill who they're meant to be? Is it a supportive environment or one in which the person, who they are, is slowly dying?

There are so many things to unpack and consider when thinking about your parents. I agree with the others here that individual T is the best option, not joint. He wouldn't be free to share and talk with your M in the room with him.

I'm glad you're there to help him.

Wools

[eaglestar]

Does your brother see how he is being used by his  mom?  Does he feel any remorse in participating with her against his father (before talking to his dad and getting the facts)?  Did it bother him afterwards that he had done that?  Does he have any desire to stop being her flying monkey, or is he getting something back for doing this, such as her approval?  Can he see he’s being manipulated by her to take actions against his own father?

I did wonder about that. He is not super open with me. He was very cordial over the phone when we discussed these issues, and did talk with my father when I asked him to. My father said he did apologize for his role, but that it felt professional, not sincere. It felt like an apology one gives to an irate customer/ client.  I wasn't there, so I don't know. But my father said that Brother remains difficult to reach even after my father asked if he would chat with him more often.

I think there are some underlying issues there that make it more likely for my brother to side with my mother and want to believe her. I mentioned in another thread that he was in trouble frequently as a kid, and I was the rule-follower. My father and he butted heads a lot when he was a teen. He was always the Golden Child in my mother's eyes and could do no wrong. This irritated my father, who wanted my brother to turn out well and thought that he was the only one who was going to kick him in the pants. He would even say "your mother won't call you out on this behavior, so that leaves me to help you get your act together." I was the Scapegoat child from an early age, and noticed this. I came to my father and told him "I don't think mom likes me" when I was about, oh, I don't know, 8 or 9. And he responded "oh, that's not true, she loves you! She just doesn't understand you." He recognized there was a disconnect there.  Now, he's recognizing that he relationship was never actually good with my brother-- it was just as disordered to not discipline him and coddle him.
So anyway, I think he still sees my father as the "bad guy", even though he has since turned out to be a responsible adult (thanks to my father "kicking him in the pants"). It was likely more my father's example of hard work and living responsibly that sunk in, more than anything he said to my brother.
When I speak with my brother about these things, he says "I think mom is a bottler, and she bottles her emotions until they explode, and that's why she sometimes acts irrationally. Dad is abrasive and doesn't realize how he comes across, and mom's only fault is never telling him how he makes her feel."
He never experienced her irrational outbursts, her targeting, her switching, or other BPD behaviors. He never experienced her controlling nature. She only ever presents her best self to him. I used to say that my brother had achieved "guest status", meaning that she would treat him like she treated "guests" or the general public -- repair men, people who call on the phone, the lady behind the counter at the grocery store -- she would always be pleasant to these people, even if she was screaming horrible things just a moment before the interaction.

If I am not mistaken about this, and your mother hasn't met your son yet, then it seems to me that she has made it clear that there is no interest on her part in having a relationship with him. And this is something you will probably need some time to process and grieve.

If your father is able to stand his ground and keep visiting you alone that would probably be ideal. But if not, it could still be doable for you to visit your parents. In Children of the Self-absorbed 3rd Edition, Nina Brown has some good advice on how to protect one's children from a toxic grandparent.  She doesn't mention specifically that not staying in their house during visits is mandatory, but I think this is probably obvious to her readers.

Yes this is something I'm grieving, and I don't know if I've fully accepted it yet. But my wife and I already said that we would stay at an air bnb if we flew out there and saw them. It makes me sad, but it's not really unexpected. I actually had a feeling -- I consider it a spiritual prompting -- the last time I was there that it would be the last Christmas I spent with my parents. I considered that preposterous at the time. There was no reason why, especially after my soon-to-be wife had a baby, that my mother would not swoon over being a grandmother as she always had talked about. But then my wife and I married, had a baby, and there was no swooning. And I don't think there will be.

Notwendy, it sounds like your dad's situation is not dissimilar to my father's. Thankfully, my father is willing to make changes-- he told me yesterday that he has his first therapy meeting next week. This is fantastic! But even more phenomenal news-- my brother convinced my mother to go as well. After I asked him to try to talk her into individual therapy, he had one conversation with her and pitched it as a way to deal with the anxiety and stress that comes from living with my father. And she bought it! I think he could suggest she move to the moon and she would ask him where she could buy a ticket.

I've found it a lot easier to use the term toxic behavior when I describe my marriage. Was it abusive? Definitely, but toxic fits well for me too. Ask if the environment is one in which a person can thrive and grow, being encouraged to be the best person they can be to fulfill who they're meant to be? Is it a supportive environment or one in which the person, who they are, is slowly dying?

This actually made me start thinking about my own upbringing. I turned out fine and I think I have a good handle on my own emotions and function very well. But I don't think my relationship with my mother and the environment surrounding it as a child was a healthy one. I think she made me question my ability to feel emotions, made me think I was cold and calculating, made me believe that my intelligence was a handicap. I sometimes fulfilled that role, and would say nasty things to her in response to some slight. One time she interrupted me when I was trying to share something about how our dryer worked, using centripetal motion and evaporation to remove the water from the clothes. She said something like "no one wants to hear that technobabble." I was offended and said "maybe your mind is just too simple to comprehend it." I regret saying that. I remember how she cried, threw a fit, and didn't talk to me for several days.
But at the same time, she sacrificed a lot of time and energy to help me succeed. Because I was a very hyperactive kid, easily distracted, she took me out of the house and to various settings where I could focus better to do my homework. She sat with me and tutored me. She taught me to read when I was 2-3, and she took me to the science center, the zoo, the gym, and all sorts of interesting places when I was a preschooler, to nourish my hunger for learning. She was a lot more hands off after I was in elementary school, but it is still because of her that I was several years ahead of my peers, and I can't forget that.
I suppose there were a lot of mixed messages. She wanted me to be exceptional, but she also created an environment where being exceptional was the reason why she couldn't "understand me" as my father told me.